Merciless Nerf is too harsh

lucky_dutch

I get that barrel-stuffing the bow proc from point-blank was a bit OP because it was really hard to dodge. However, they’ve over-done it with the nerf in two ways:

Firstly, the bow is now SO slow from point-blank that you can actually CC-break and dodge before it lands which is crazy. It no longer takes any skill or anticipation to avoid it.

Secondly, the travel time from medium-range is comically slow. It’s slower and more obvious than Sload a or any ability that I can think off. You have to be genuinely half-asleep to ever get hit by this thing now unless you’re cc’d (and even then you still can avoid it as said above).

Some corrections needed: slight reduction on minimal travel time so it’s just slightly too low for people to cc break and dodge but high enough that it is still practical to dodge it if not cc’d. Increase the actual travel time to compensate for the new minimum travel time such that when fired from over 10m distance, the time to target is roughly the same as before the nerf.

Net result of all this - you could dodge it now when barrel-stuffed but if you allow yourself to be cc’d by a Nightblade who has been building stacks for a while, you’re going to eat a bow proc. That’s totally fair and reasonable else the ability becomes trash. Also bear in mind that all Nightblade cc’s are either point blank or have an obvious projectile (destructive reach) so don’t tell me you can’t see them coming and dodge them!

Valrien

Tbh this and the frags nerf wasnt really necessary.

As was the nerf to cost, since they should have just buffed frags to be in line with Power Lash and Grim Focus

lucky_dutch

Valrien wrote: »

Tbh this and the frags nerf wasnt really necessary.

As was the nerf to cost, since they should have just buffed frags to be in line with Power Lash and Grim Focus

Agree but I don’t think we’re gonna see any improvements now sadly. Based on today’s notes they’re comfortable with the extent to which they’ve ruined PvP!

ak_pvp

Valrien wrote: »

Tbh this and the frags nerf wasnt really necessary.

As was the nerf to cost, since they should have just buffed frags to be in line with Power Lash and Grim Focus

They did. Then they nerfed all three of them unnecessarily. Because people were really scared about DK having too much sustain or frags actually hitting...

Chilly-McFreeze

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

Tbh this and the frags nerf wasnt really necessary.

As was the nerf to cost, since they should have just buffed frags to be in line with Power Lash and Grim Focus

Agree but I don’t think we’re gonna see any improvements now sadly. Based on today’s notes they’re comfortable with the extent to which they’ve ruined PvP!

Was a bit of a let down when I clicked on the patch notes. But it's my mistake to have hopes.
However, I can only agree with you and Valrien. That ZOS can't adjust things without a sledgehammer.

Koolio

Another Melee MNB nerf

lucky_dutch

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

Tbh this and the frags nerf wasnt really necessary.

As was the nerf to cost, since they should have just buffed frags to be in line with Power Lash and Grim Focus

Agree but I don’t think we’re gonna see any improvements now sadly. Based on today’s notes they’re comfortable with the extent to which they’ve ruined PvP!

Was a bit of a let down when I clicked on the patch notes. But it's my mistake to have hopes.
However, I can only agree with you and Valrien. That ZOS can't adjust things without a sledgehammer.

Genuinely wonder whether they’re deliberately trying to force wild swings in the meta to encourage re-rolls and extend the game life.

Blizzard tried that once upon a time... until they started hemoraging subs and PvP almost completely died-out.

Mayrael

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

Tbh this and the frags nerf wasnt really necessary.

As was the nerf to cost, since they should have just buffed frags to be in line with Power Lash and Grim Focus

Agree but I don’t think we’re gonna see any improvements now sadly. Based on today’s notes they’re comfortable with the extent to which they’ve ruined PvP!

Was a bit of a let down when I clicked on the patch notes. But it's my mistake to have hopes.
However, I can only agree with you and Valrien. That ZOS can't adjust things without a sledgehammer.

Genuinely wonder whether they’re deliberately trying to force wild swings in the meta to encourage re-rolls and extend the game life.

Blizzard tried that once upon a time... until they started hemoraging subs and PvP almost completely died-out.

That's quite interesting idea, but when it goes to most of the players it won't work, they'll just quit the game. ZOS really wants to kill any skill and fast gameplay in the game and make it more of a chess match where you die because of boredom.

NyassaV

Merciless is more telegraphed than frags + since latency exists it means I will hit you with my will and incap at the same damn time. Have fun

Strider__Roshin

I'm not a fan at all. It's not even fun to use anymore.

Kanar

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

Tbh this and the frags nerf wasnt really necessary.

As was the nerf to cost, since they should have just buffed frags to be in line with Power Lash and Grim Focus

Agree but I don’t think we’re gonna see any improvements now sadly. Based on today’s notes they’re comfortable with the extent to which they’ve ruined PvP!

Was a bit of a let down when I clicked on the patch notes. But it's my mistake to have hopes.
However, I can only agree with you and Valrien. That ZOS can't adjust things without a sledgehammer.

Genuinely wonder whether they’re deliberately trying to force wild swings in the meta to encourage re-rolls and extend the game life.

Blizzard tried that once upon a time... until they started hemoraging subs and PvP almost completely died-out.

I don't think the class skill changes have this motivation, but it is happening in other places. Specifically item sets. Just look at SS: if you don't own that chapter you are way behind. No relequen, no siroria or olorime, no jewelry trans. Those things are quite OP.

dagonbeer

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

Tbh this and the frags nerf wasnt really necessary.

As was the nerf to cost, since they should have just buffed frags to be in line with Power Lash and Grim Focus

Agree but I don’t think we’re gonna see any improvements now sadly. Based on today’s notes they’re comfortable with the extent to which they’ve ruined PvP!

Was a bit of a let down when I clicked on the patch notes. But it's my mistake to have hopes.
However, I can only agree with you and Valrien. That ZOS can't adjust things without a sledgehammer.

Genuinely wonder whether they’re deliberately trying to force wild swings in the meta to encourage re-rolls and extend the game life.

Blizzard tried that once upon a time... until they started hemoraging subs and PvP almost completely died-out.

Wild swings in the meta? As if the meta is not already heavily tilted on the stamina side. I estimate that a solid 75% (minimum) of BG players I come across are stam builds. (With a vicious outbreak of snipe gankers lately, which I can handle now, but it'll get seriously annoying when they get their long ranged draining shot...)

Though I think ZOS metrics samples heavily from Cyrodiil zerglings.

brandonv516

And yet you still can't react to Snipe at times.

Xeniph

Considering you can already, HEAR when your opponent gets the proc up, this wasn't needed.

However, I suppose this just means that most of us will hold on to the proc a bit longer till we find a good window. It will certainly make it easier to dodge/block the bad NB's

Mayrael

Xeniph wrote: »

Considering you can already, HEAR when your opponent gets the proc up, this wasn't needed.

However, I suppose this just means that most of us will hold on to the proc a bit longer till we find a good window. It will certainly make it easier to dodge/block the bad NB's

It will make it easier to dodge FOR THE BAD players, not the BAD NBs, as a NB there is nothing you can do. You can't lower the distance because there is a minimum travel time, you can't CC before because they will be able to break free and dodge it anyway. Well you can fire it earlier and then try to CC but only "reliable" CC to this is fear. Well it can be combined into nice combo with meteor...

NuarBlack

brandonv516 wrote: »

And yet you still can't react to Snipe at times.

Wait what? Are you playing without sound? Snipe has been a trash skill since forever cause it has such a long travel time and distinct sound(also not empower ganking anymore either). If you are getting hit by it in 1vX situations then sorry that is sound MMO pvp tactics since runescape or before of range taking pot shots at melee already engaged. Still better than multiple shalk, spin2win, dawn breakers at any rate.

Koensol

NuarBlack wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

And yet you still can't react to Snipe at times.

Wait what? Are you playing without sound? Snipe has been a trash skill since forever cause it has such a long travel time and distinct sound(also not empower ganking anymore either). If you are getting hit by it in 1vX situations then sorry that is sound MMO pvp tactics since runescape or before of range taking pot shots at melee already engaged. Still better than multiple shalk, spin2win, dawn breakers at any rate.

Looks like someone who hasn't heard of desync before.

Derra

If you were relatively quick on cc break you could always ccbreak and dodge/block it ever since they reduced the projectile speed about 9? months ago.

kaithuzar

Who plays with sound? You’re either in ts/discord or listening to music. You guys act like this is a super competitive game where the servers always work, balance exists, & we haven’t been in a stam meta for the past year

TheYKcid

Derra wrote: »

If you were relatively quick on cc break you could always ccbreak and dodge/block it ever since they reduced the projectile speed about 9? months ago.

This. I have a friend who was reliably able to cc-break Incap then dodge Merciless on live, during our duels.

I haven't tested it on PTS as I don't have access, but I can't imagine it being much slower and still feeling good to use. Frags, too.

lucky_dutch

Derra wrote: »

If you were relatively quick on cc break you could always ccbreak and dodge/block it ever since they reduced the projectile speed about 9? months ago.

How quick is your internet???

I can get close on live but not quite. On PTS it’s trivial. My nan is arthritis could do it.

Bow first, cc second might be the only way but incap isn’t quick enough so either way the normal by st combo is ruined.

Feanor

It has been like that with Frags for years. The only ones you could reliably hit are a) on an opponent that is running away, b) a player who is inattentive or already engaged, and c) someone who doesn’t know how to cc break.

But on top of it Frags hit for 5 to 7k only if you don’t go all in on a damage build. I’m all for making the game more interesting again. Classes absolutely should have powerful well designed abilities because it’s fun. This patch is not.

mr_wazzabi

I wonder if I should just drop relentless and wear slimecraw for the buff in pvp. There are other abilities to slot.

Strider__Roshin

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

I wonder if I should just drop relentless and wear slimecraw for the buff in pvp. There are other abilities to slot.

I've thought about this as well, but I like Balorgh too much lol, plus my sustain is rough as a Nord. Dropping it further doesn't seem wise.

Skander

Merciless does 9k on heavy armor in pvp. Firing it up close was pretty much a skill+execute at the same time. It needs this

DeadlyRecluse

I think ZOS needs to really consider how they want the "proc" dps skills (frags, spectral bow, whip) to function, clearly articulate that vision, and then go from there.

Personally, I liked the zero-resource burst model and wish they'd keep that--and maybe expand it to the other classes so everyone has a similar option.

Bosov

Skander wrote: »

Merciless does 9k on heavy armor in pvp. Firing it up close was pretty much a skill+execute at the same time. It needs this

I would be very happy if this was the nerf i got. That ability hits harder than some (a lot of) ults and they arent changing the damage. If an non ult abilty hits that hard it really shouldnt be so easy to use

thankyourat

Skander wrote: »

Merciless does 9k on heavy armor in pvp. Firing it up close was pretty much a skill+execute at the same time. It needs this

But firing it up close it was still easy to dodge. I could fear you fire merciless right after at point blank range and you can CC break and avoid or block the merciless 100% of the time already so why was a change needed

React

I hate to say it, but all these people claiming that on live you cannot break the fear and dodge the bow at point blank simply aren't doing it quickly enough. I've dueled extensively with some of the best mag & stamNB on my server, and most of the time I can consistently break the CC and dodge the bow with no issues. Lag in open world and generally buggy CC functionality certainly can come into play with this, but it IS possible and not all that difficult do dodge this currently.

What ZoS is doing, per the first set of class rep notes, is attempting to remove burst damage from the game because it apparently "has no place in PvP". Burst damage is the most difficult to build for, generally the most difficult to perform in combat, and overall the most skillful/rewarding play-style. It also punishes bad players who are not familiar with the mechanics of whatever class is bursting them. ZoS is attempting to lower the skill floor each patch in order to remove the barrier to entry for new players, when in reality if you compare a bottom tier pvp player to a top tier pvp player, you will not ever be able to close that gap. All changes like this do is remove skillful play from the game to accommodate players who have NOT put in the time into learning the mechanics, while punishing those who have.

In addition to that, with the way healing, mitigation, and CP work in general, burst damage from pure damage specs is severely out performed by healing and mitigation from pure heal/mit specs. There are fully unkillable tanks that need little to no skill whatsoever to do what they do, who can't be killed ever 1v1, even by a PURE damage build with no sustain or mitigation whatsoever. There are healers that can't be killed and simultaneously can keep everyone around them alive. Burst damage is the only way to have even a slight chance of killing these specs, and in the current state of the game even burst is generally not viable against them. Your only option is to drain them of resources (which can be near impossible, since they invest so heavily into sustain, or walk away.

The barrier to entry in PvP isn't the skill gap. Good players will always be better than new players, because of the time they've put in. If anything, 810 CP points is the entry barrier. Someone with half the CP of a cap player doesn't stand a chance now. If ZoS was to remove CP in general from PvP, or limit it to a MUCH smaller amount, or simply rework the whole CP system in general, then we can talk about other issues contributing to the barrier to entry.

This is nothing new, really.

reprosal

Kanar wrote: »

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

Tbh this and the frags nerf wasnt really necessary.

As was the nerf to cost, since they should have just buffed frags to be in line with Power Lash and Grim Focus

Agree but I don’t think we’re gonna see any improvements now sadly. Based on today’s notes they’re comfortable with the extent to which they’ve ruined PvP!

Was a bit of a let down when I clicked on the patch notes. But it's my mistake to have hopes.
However, I can only agree with you and Valrien. That ZOS can't adjust things without a sledgehammer.

Genuinely wonder whether they’re deliberately trying to force wild swings in the meta to encourage re-rolls and extend the game life.

Blizzard tried that once upon a time... until they started hemoraging subs and PvP almost completely died-out.

I don't think the class skill changes have this motivation, but it is happening in other places. Specifically item sets. Just look at SS: if you don't own that chapter you are way behind. No relequen, no siroria or olorime, no jewelry trans. Those things are quite OP.

Way behind..? I have Summerset but still mostly use BSW/MS and still parse within 2-4k of most test dummy heroes.

AY/War machine is still a very strong set too. I wouldn’t say ‘way’ behind though.

Finedaible

Leave it to ZoS to take the only fun class to play and make it more clunky to play instead of making other classes not be absolute shite.