A Trophy For Everyone

mistermacintosh

“Everyone get’s a trophy”: I’ve heard lot’s of people say this. Usually it’s followed by a speech about how lazy millennials are, but every now and then I hear this in ESO… and I wonder why? Why do players let this mentality bother them?

ESO is an extremely accessible game for new and low-skilled players. There’s no denying that many rewards in the game are earned through participation, logging in, or charging your (or mommy/daddy’s) credit card. But why shouldn’t this be the case? The world, contrary to popular belief, is not a warm fuzzy place where everyone hands you things. It can be cold, lonely and terrifying. For many people these games are a refuge from their tedious, disappointing, spirit-crushing existences… a place where a pawn can feel like a king (or emperor).

Should the people who bust their backsides everyday to be the best in the game be rewarded accordingly? Absolutely! But if you look at it from a corporate perspective (and you should if you really want to understand ZOS’ motivations), then you’ll realize that they have to prioritize the general community over the elite to maximize their customer base (and keep the game profitable). If you look at it from a community perspective, then the more players you have trying the game and deciding to stay because the game is accessible and rewarding, even to them (the lowest form of life in the universe), then the richer and more lively your community will be.

I understand intimately the struggles endgame players face. To walk into Cyrodiil everyday and play in earnest, after everything the ESO PVP community has gone through (and continues to go through) takes profound courage and dedication. To push yourself through arena after arena, dying thousands of deaths for that one f****** maelstrom weapon, especially back when you weren’t guaranteed one, was an extremely unpleasant task… but players did it, over and over and over again. And to take an unskilled, inexperienced group of people with different lives, values and personality quirks and turn them into a coordinated team that can take on a vet hard-mode trial, the most difficult content in the game, takes monumental patience and perseverance.

Don’t be angry or disgusted with the players who aren’t willing to push themselves to improve. Pity them. These experiences may not feel like rewards when you’re going through them, but they are the only real thing of value you will carry with you beyond the borders of Tamriel, and are worth more than any title, achievement or stupid hat ever will be. And if you truly want the community to change, to push past the mentality of zerg-balls and lazy, exploitive builds, then show them the way. We can’t and shouldn’t depend on ZOS to do that for us. They can do things to help (many, many things), but ultimately the ESO community is ours to shape.

srfrogg23

Yes. There are people that use video games as an excuse to virtue signal about important real life values like working hard and being persistent.

I wouldn't worry about their misplaced ramblings. We all know it's just a video game and it's meant for fun.

Pheefs

Dude, Its a game!
& you can't MAKE other people enjoy what you do about it...

mistermacintosh wrote: »

To push yourself through arena after arena, dying thousands of deaths for that one f****** maelstrom weapon

FYI personally that doesn't sound like something fun I want to do

VaranisArano

I'm not sure I want to change the mentality of the community the way you seem to. Your suggestion seems to be that, rather than respectful or helpful towards new/low skill players, that we should be patronizing.

Pity is not really all that much of an improvement over anger and disgust.

Far better to accept and respect different playstyles in the game. To accept and respect that not everyone wants to play at a competitive level and to offer advice kindly when its asked for. To accept and respect that not everyone can play at a competitive level.

Pity is not going change a community for the better, any more than anfer or disgust. Welcoming new players and offering them help respectfully - accepting and respecting all levels of play - that will do far more to improve the community.


The things of value I will take from ESO are the good moments I've had with friends. That can be as epic as crowning a guildie emperor on PC/NA Vivec or simple as running normal Vaults of Madness for the 100th time with IRL friends. I could not have had those moments without the people who welcomed and accepted me as the player I am - especially my PVP guild, who turned me from a PVE-only player into a PVPer.

Starlock

VaranisArano wrote: »

I'm not sure I want to change the mentality of the community the way you seem to. Your suggestion seems to be that, rather than respectful or helpful towards new/low skill players, that we should be patronizing.

Pity is not really all that much of an improvement over anger and disgust.

Far better to accept and respect different playstyles in the game. To accept and respect that not everyone wants to play at a competitive level and to offer advice kindly when its asked for. To accept and respect that not everyone can play at a competitive level.

Pity is not going change a community for the better, any more than anfer or disgust. Welcoming new players and offering them help respectfully - accepting and respecting all levels of play - that will do far more to improve the community.

Thank you for this.

Why is it so darned hard for folks to understand that people have different gameplay priorities? That some of us really don't give two plucks about competitive gaming like PvP or so-called "endgame?" The OP started off as rather nice and insightful, but when it got into that patronizing nonsense? Seriously? Having different values from you is to be pitied? Give me a break.

Reistr_the_Unbroken

Starlock wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I'm not sure I want to change the mentality of the community the way you seem to. Your suggestion seems to be that, rather than respectful or helpful towards new/low skill players, that we should be patronizing.

Pity is not really all that much of an improvement over anger and disgust.

Far better to accept and respect different playstyles in the game. To accept and respect that not everyone wants to play at a competitive level and to offer advice kindly when its asked for. To accept and respect that not everyone can play at a competitive level.

Pity is not going change a community for the better, any more than anfer or disgust. Welcoming new players and offering them help respectfully - accepting and respecting all levels of play - that will do far more to improve the community.

Thank you for this.

Why is it so darned hard for folks to understand that people have different gameplay priorities? That some of us really don't give two plucks about competitive gaming like PvP or so-called "endgame?" The OP started off as rather nice and insightful, but when it got into that patronizing nonsense? Seriously? Having different values from you is to be pitied? Give me a break.

You both deserve an awesome

Waffennacht

Only time I care is when we get grouped up in a BG or a dungeon. At which point I don't care where you're starting from, as long as you have the drive to do better I like you.

Conduit0

You do realize no one would have an issue with potato players if they stuck to potato content? They do not however and its incredibly frustrating to have a no skill player hopping into vet/dlc dungeons and Battlegrounds and literally dragging the entire group down because they can't pull their own weight, refuse to learn mechanics, and get pissy and scream, "I play the way I want!" when you try to offer them advice to improve.

Girl_Number8

It is just a game to have a nice break from everyday life. You're making it sound like a job, maybe it's time for a small break.

Androconium

Conduit0 wrote: »

You do realize no one would have an issue with potato players if they stuck to potato content? They do not however and its incredibly frustrating to have a no skill player hopping into vet/dlc dungeons and Battlegrounds and literally dragging the entire group down because they can't pull their own weight, refuse to learn mechanics, and get pissy and scream, "I play the way I want!" when you try to offer them advice to improve.

Playing the way you want is a fundamental element of TES games.

Starlock

Conduit0 wrote: »

You do realize no one would have an issue with potato players if they stuck to potato content? They do not however and its incredibly frustrating to have a no skill player hopping into vet/dlc dungeons and Battlegrounds and literally dragging the entire group down because they can't pull their own weight, refuse to learn mechanics, and get pissy and scream, "I play the way I want!" when you try to offer them advice to improve.

I've never had this happen, personally. Just yesterday I was doing norm Bloodroot Forge for the pledge on my main tank and we got damage dealers who were straight up terrible. The healer was on point, but after we had our first wipe - and we had the boss within 5% health so we more than likely would have gotten it on the second try - the healer left. The two damage dealers finally got on mic and were really nice guys. Neither of them had done the full dungeon before. One of them reluctantly confessed that they had queued for a random normal dungeon and was looking to pick up some extra skill points on their crafter. They knew their character was garbage, because all their skills were into crafting. We had some good laughs together, chatted about the game. We ended up disbanding, but left with smiles on our faces.

Moral of the story? If people cultivate a sense of camaraderie, it doesn't really matter if the outcome is a success or failure because you get to connect with some cool people and have fun with it anyway. I wouldn't mind playing with those guys again, even though their damage dealing was awful. They were cool peeps. The folks I do PvP with on occasion are the same sort of chill crowd. Nobody gets bent out of shape when they die or we fail a keep siege. We enjoy each other's company and have fun!

srfrogg23

Conduit0 wrote: »

You do realize no one would have an issue with potato players if they stuck to potato content? They do not however and its incredibly frustrating to have a no skill player hopping into vet/dlc dungeons and Battlegrounds and literally dragging the entire group down because they can't pull their own weight, refuse to learn mechanics, and get pissy and scream, "I play the way I want!" when you try to offer them advice to improve.

Calling people "potatoes" probably doesn't help your case at all. If that attitude shows in game, there's probably a reason for why you're getting friction from people.

Agenericname

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Conduit0 wrote: »

You do realize no one would have an issue with potato players if they stuck to potato content? They do not however and its incredibly frustrating to have a no skill player hopping into vet/dlc dungeons and Battlegrounds and literally dragging the entire group down because they can't pull their own weight, refuse to learn mechanics, and get pissy and scream, "I play the way I want!" when you try to offer them advice to improve.

Calling people "potatoes" probably doesn't help your case at all. If that attitude shows in game, there's probably a reason for why you're getting friction from people.

It's fairly safe to say that ad hominem probably isnt an improvement over pity, anger, or disgust either.

MattT1988

Androconium wrote: »

Conduit0 wrote: »

You do realize no one would have an issue with potato players if they stuck to potato content? They do not however and its incredibly frustrating to have a no skill player hopping into vet/dlc dungeons and Battlegrounds and literally dragging the entire group down because they can't pull their own weight, refuse to learn mechanics, and get pissy and scream, "I play the way I want!" when you try to offer them advice to improve.

Playing the way you want is a fundamental element of TES games.

Sure. If your doing solo content. Group content however, that goes out the window somewhat. This might be a TES game but it is also an MMO, which means your required to be a good team player every now and then and set your character up for efficiency when your doing group content.

zyk

Look at it from the perspective of long time gamers who, through their enthusiasm and dollars built this industry.

We enjoyed being challenged and problem solving. We enjoyed having to find ways to work together creatively to overcome obstacles.

If the challenges, problems and obstacles don't exist, what is even the point of gameplay? When you systematically remove them, it stops being a game and turns into an interactive entertainment product that is barely above TV.

From my POV, my hobby is being taken away from me. First it was single player games that became impossible to lose and now it's online games too. Basically, my hobby which I helped build has been coopted by a larger audience who doesn't really enjoy games and are turning them into something else.

This is relevant to ESO. It wasn't always so brain dead. It was never the most challenging game ever, but at launch it was engaging enough to hold the attention of a gamer. One had to at least learn the rules of the game and play according to them to complete vet overland and dungeon content to complete it. This is no longer true.

In giving something to you, ZOS has taken something from players like me. I can't quest in this game anymore because combat is so disgustingly easy that it is painful for me to play. It's mind-numbingly boring. That's not an exaggeration. I enjoy the stories, but combat is just a mindless chore. I might as well read a book instead.

VaranisArano

Androconium wrote: »

Conduit0 wrote: »

You do realize no one would have an issue with potato players if they stuck to potato content? They do not however and its incredibly frustrating to have a no skill player hopping into vet/dlc dungeons and Battlegrounds and literally dragging the entire group down because they can't pull their own weight, refuse to learn mechanics, and get pissy and scream, "I play the way I want!" when you try to offer them advice to improve.

Playing the way you want is a fundamental element of TES games.

Sort of.

Generally the TES games have allowed every playstyle to be effective (as long as you didnt screw up your build in Oblivion). Part of that is that the difficulty cap is lower and you can more easily scale up your effectiveness with better enchantments and potions. Assuming you didn't wander somewhere you shouldnt early on in Morrowind, nearly every variation of fighter, mage, and thief can complete all the content.

That's just not the case in ESO. In ESO, there are DPS caps for different levels of content. If your build and rotation can reach that, you can do the content. If your build and rotation can't, you can't. That's why hybrids struggle - the current way ZOS handles stat-scaling DPS means hybrid builds get shortchanged with end-game DPS. And in PVP, you can play the way you want, but you'd better be really good or you will probably die more than the guys who play the meta decently.

And in ESO's group content, its a team effort. There's a certain expectation that "play the way you want" means filling the job you selected to be on the team. Whether that's 3 or 11 other people, you are part of a team effort when you group up for dungeons and trials.


So, I understand the frustration that comes from dealing with players who aren't fulfilling their role. I get really frustrated myself with fake tanks who refuse to slot a taunt after my healer ends up with boss aggro or the boss aggros on a squishy DPS who decides to kite. That's "playing the way they want" to the detriment of the team. (Yes, I know fake tank = extra DPS, but when it causes a problem, please, slot a taunt.)

On the other hand, I think there's a big difference between offering help and advice to inexperienced players who want it and the sort of patronizing "advice" we're all familiar with that does more harm than good. A truly inexperienced or new player, including those trying out harder content than they are used to, needs support and encouragement. Someone who is trying to tank or who needs help learning to tank effectively gets a much more helpful response from me than a fake tank who laughs off my request for them to hold boss aggro.

Basically, if we want players to do better when they try out harder content, we have to be supportive when they ask for help. We definitely shouldn't treat inexperienced players with the same dismissiveness we feel towards those intentionally not filling their roles.

VaranisArano

zyk wrote: »

Look at it from the perspective of long time gamers who, through their enthusiasm and dollars built this industry.

We enjoyed being challenged and problem solving. We enjoyed having to find ways to work together creatively to overcome obstacles.

If the challenges, problems and obstacles don't exist, what is even the point of gameplay? When you systematically remove them, it stops being a game and turns into an interactive entertainment product that is barely above TV.

From my POV, my hobby is being taken away from me. First it was single player games that became impossible to lose and now it's online games too. Basically, my hobby which I helped build has been coopted by a larger audience who doesn't really enjoy games and are turning them into something else.

This is relevant to ESO. It wasn't always so brain dead. It was never the most challenging game ever, but at launch it was engaging enough to hold the attention of a gamer. One had to at least learn the rules of the game and play according to them to complete vet overland and dungeon content to complete it. This is no longer true.

In giving something to you, ZOS has taken something from players like me. I can't quest in this game anymore because combat is so disgustingly easy that it is painful for me to play. It's mind-numbingly boring.

I've found that once you hit the level of DPS needed to complete a level of content, that content becomes pretty easy. With Overland, that was about 10k DPS.

The other difference is that ZOS only releases so much content now. When I started prior to One Tamriel, I was challenged by Blaze and Ragebinder in Stonefalls at level 9, and I still had Doshia to look forward to, and the harvesters in Coldharbor, and all of vet content. With One Tamriel, we traded that sense of vertical progression for the ability to escape the railroad. (Personally, I'm happy with it. Railroading me through repeated quests is a good way to bore me.)

I still have to learn the combat and mechanics of the new content, like the DLC dungeons and the Summerset WBs, but again, that's much less than there was available when I first bought the game. So it feels smaller and comes in little bites, and if you already have a coordinated group with high DPS, even those might feel easy.

Its a different game than it was before One Tamriel. Overall, I like it. My SO misses the vertical progression and is getting bored. So everyone has different things they like in an MMO.

Sylvermynx

Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I'm not sure I want to change the mentality of the community the way you seem to. Your suggestion seems to be that, rather than respectful or helpful towards new/low skill players, that we should be patronizing.

Pity is not really all that much of an improvement over anger and disgust.

Far better to accept and respect different playstyles in the game. To accept and respect that not everyone wants to play at a competitive level and to offer advice kindly when its asked for. To accept and respect that not everyone can play at a competitive level.

Pity is not going change a community for the better, any more than anfer or disgust. Welcoming new players and offering them help respectfully - accepting and respecting all levels of play - that will do far more to improve the community.

Thank you for this.

Why is it so darned hard for folks to understand that people have different gameplay priorities? That some of us really don't give two plucks about competitive gaming like PvP or so-called "endgame?" The OP started off as rather nice and insightful, but when it got into that patronizing nonsense? Seriously? Having different values from you is to be pitied? Give me a break.

You both deserve an awesome

QFT. And @VaranisArano, you got a couple more for later posts!

Starlock

zyk wrote: »

Look at it from the perspective of long time gamers who, through their enthusiasm and dollars built this industry.

We enjoyed being challenged and problem solving. We enjoyed having to find ways to work together creatively to overcome obstacles.

We?

It’s all well and good that this was your experience, but it simply isn’t true that all long time gamers share this perspective. I certainly don’t. Vast majority of the dollars I spent on games went to RPGs not because they were ‘challenging’ or involved ‘problem solving’ but because they told good stories and served as a landscape for my imagination. You imply reading is ‘mindless’ (really?) but a good chunk of the RPG crowd are avid readers and lovers of fantasy in particular. RPGs often appeal to this crowd because it offers the opportunity to be a character in the story instead of a passive participant. Tabletop RPGs excel at this bar none, but games like ESO and other Elder Scrolls game provide a similar opportunity. You get out of it what you put into it, and are only as limited as your imagination.

Hoolielulu

Starlock wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I'm not sure I want to change the mentality of the community the way you seem to. Your suggestion seems to be that, rather than respectful or helpful towards new/low skill players, that we should be patronizing.

Pity is not really all that much of an improvement over anger and disgust.

Far better to accept and respect different playstyles in the game. To accept and respect that not everyone wants to play at a competitive level and to offer advice kindly when its asked for. To accept and respect that not everyone can play at a competitive level.

Pity is not going change a community for the better, any more than anfer or disgust. Welcoming new players and offering them help respectfully - accepting and respecting all levels of play - that will do far more to improve the community.

Thank you for this.

Why is it so darned hard for folks to understand that people have different gameplay priorities? That some of us really don't give two plucks about competitive gaming like PvP or so-called "endgame?" The OP started off as rather nice and insightful, but when it got into that patronizing nonsense? Seriously? Having different values from you is to be pitied? Give me a break.

Thank YOU.

jainiadral

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I'm not sure I want to change the mentality of the community the way you seem to. Your suggestion seems to be that, rather than respectful or helpful towards new/low skill players, that we should be patronizing.

Pity is not really all that much of an improvement over anger and disgust.

Far better to accept and respect different playstyles in the game. To accept and respect that not everyone wants to play at a competitive level and to offer advice kindly when its asked for. To accept and respect that not everyone can play at a competitive level.

Pity is not going change a community for the better, any more than anfer or disgust. Welcoming new players and offering them help respectfully - accepting and respecting all levels of play - that will do far more to improve the community.

Thank you for this.

Why is it so darned hard for folks to understand that people have different gameplay priorities? That some of us really don't give two plucks about competitive gaming like PvP or so-called "endgame?" The OP started off as rather nice and insightful, but when it got into that patronizing nonsense? Seriously? Having different values from you is to be pitied? Give me a break.

You both deserve an awesome

QFT. And @VaranisArano, you got a couple more for later posts!

Yep, I don't think I've awesome-d a thread so much

Random aside: Am I the only one who feels sorry for millennials? Due to increasing life expectancy, I think they're the first generation in human history to have two very lively and populated generations pooping on them. They not only get the same garbage this GenXer got from the Boomers, but a huge pile from my cohorts too. And they have to deal with it in addition to huge cuts in social services and standards of living. Not fun.

The worst thing I've been seeing is generational projection-- I mean the stereotype presented by OP is one this Gen X'er represents in spades. Except it isn't mom/dad's credit card-- it's mine. Don't get me started on entitlement and avocado toast

zyk

Starlock wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Look at it from the perspective of long time gamers who, through their enthusiasm and dollars built this industry.

We enjoyed being challenged and problem solving. We enjoyed having to find ways to work together creatively to overcome obstacles.

We?

It’s all well and good that this was your experience, but it simply isn’t true that all long time gamers share this perspective. I certainly don’t. Vast majority of the dollars I spent on games went to RPGs not because they were ‘challenging’ or involved ‘problem solving’ but because they told good stories and served as a landscape for my imagination.

Yes, we. Obviously I'm not speaking for every single gamer to ever play this kind of game. However, I am not alone in my feelings about this. Games of the past -- including RPGs -- were generally much more difficult than they are today for a reason: players then enjoyed that.

Hymzir

MattT1988 wrote: »

Androconium wrote: »

Conduit0 wrote: »

You do realize no one would have an issue with potato players if they stuck to potato content? They do not however and its incredibly frustrating to have a no skill player hopping into vet/dlc dungeons and Battlegrounds and literally dragging the entire group down because they can't pull their own weight, refuse to learn mechanics, and get pissy and scream, "I play the way I want!" when you try to offer them advice to improve.

Playing the way you want is a fundamental element of TES games.

Sure. If your doing solo content. Group content however, that goes out the window somewhat. This might be a TES game but it is also an MMO, which means your required to be a good team player every now and then and set your character up for efficiency when your doing group content.

I understand where you're coming from, and to some extend I share your views on this. I've been there myself, in a dungeon with a tank using a bow and asking me: "What's a taunt?" And I get it how frustrating that can be. However, the thing is, you're wrong. This being an MMO does not meant that you're supposed to be a team player. The only thing it means, is that there are a bunch of other people playing the same game.

And any group of people is always made up of individuals. Some of them are bound to be ***, most are not, however, all of them are different, and that means they all have a different angle on how they approach the game. Each player brings something different to the table, and when you team up with others, the end result will always be a compromise between those mindsets.

Some will be looking for competitive play, others just to goof around with others. Some will look at any give group as a challenge, and ask themselves can they complete the content with this team. To others, any given team, is just another chapter in their characters story and wont really differentiate you from NPCs. Some people will change their playstyle when in groups, and others will continue playing as they do solo. And some people are *** and are actively trying to make your experience as crummy as possible. That's just the way it is.

If you have a clear idea about what it is, that you want to achieve with your time in the game, then you need to seek out others whose goals align with yours. Don't expect a group of random strangers to adapt to your wishes, especially if you are not willing to adapt to theirs.

You will save yourself a lot of headaches by being flexible about these things, and not expecting everyone to share your goals. You can voice them and suggest them to others, but don't fret it too much if they're not interested in your ideas. There's no shame in bowing out gracefully if your approaches to the game differ too much. And if they don't get it, that you're looking for something different than they are, then they're prolly *** and there's no point in associating with them anyway.

But yeah, at the end of the day, we're all looking for different things from the game, and there really is no right or wrong about it. It's just that the more flexible you can be about this issue, the less you need put up with frustration.

As for DPS gated content and the more difficult stuff in the game... That is the way the game is designed, it is, however, not the way people approach the game. Most people are not interested about learning to pull of a perfected rotation. And I fully get the complaints of people who can't complete that harder content. They feel ripped off for paying for a DLC and then finding it impossible for them to finish.

That's why we have Veteran and Normal modes in the first place - to differentiate between different skill levels. It's not a perfect solution by any stretch and will not stop people trying to do stuff that is too difficult for them. That's just human nature. The thing though is, if you are doing hard veteran content with a random group of strangers, then don't be too miffed when you fail to complete it. That's what guild groups of people you know, and who share your goals, are for.

If you want more people capable of doing said content, then offer to run training runs. I see plenty of calls for LFM in zone asking for player who are experienced, but I never see any calls from experienced players looking to pass their knowledge to new players. I'd bet there are plenty of people who would happily come and learn the ropes if offered the chance. That is, as long as they felt that screwing up was okay, and even expected, and that they're not under pressure to perform like pros.

The one thing that wont work however, is forming a random group and then telling them what they need to do. If they perceive your guidance as forced, they're bound to go against it just on principle.

Anyway... There's one more issue I wanna touch up that deals with the topic of this discussion, and that is how much effort in mastering the games mechanics is reasonable to expect from the player?

The thing, to keep in mind about this, is that the game is old enough for there to be a wide range of differently skilled players. Some have played non stop since the closed beta, while others picked the game up just recently. Those, who have played the longest, have figured out the optimal tactics to use within the framework of this game. Things, that an experienced player might consider self evident, are not necessarily that to a player who's only played a month or two.

Mastering the perfect rotation requires a certain degree of physical dexterity in addition to tactical awareness and knowledge about the games mechanics. Not everyone is capable of pulling off the finger movements required, and a lot of people find the whole notion of animation cancelling baffling and counter intuitive. Being able to weave a light attack between each skill use, and then performing a weapon swap at the right time, while maintaining steady rotation that might have as many as 10 steps, is not something that just anyone can do.. It requires a lot of practice and actually training. And some might have issue with the required level of precision with their fingers and not be able to do it at all.

The difference between those who practice their rotation for hours upon hours, and those who just play the game, do the quests, and explore the dungeons, is staggering. If you are one of those who finds the challenge of mastering your rotation and increasing your DPS, then that is fine and your reward is the ability to finish the harder content in the game. But do not expect everyone to be willing or even interested in doing so.

At some point you gotta ask, how much practice is reasonable to ask from the player? At what point does it cease to be a form of entertainment and become something closer to being a professional athlete?

What if ZOS introduced the equivalent of having to beat Deep Blue in a chess match to finish some dungeon? Would that be too far? Requiring the equivalent skill from the players as Gary Kasparov has in chess?

I know that that was an extreme example, but he underlying point remains. As players, we have different approached to the game and different goals. Some find it rewarding to master their rotation, and reaching ever higher levels of DPS, while others find it uninteresting and bothersome chore and rather would just spend their time doing other things in the game.

No approach is more valid than any other, and when you team up with random strangers, it's pointless to expect everyone's goals to align.

Mr_Walker

mistermacintosh wrote: »

I understand intimately the struggles endgame players face. To walk into Cyrodiil everyday and play in earnest, after everything the ESO PVP community has gone through (and continues to go through) takes profound courage and dedication. To push yourself through arena after arena, dying thousands of deaths for that one f****** maelstrom weapon, especially back when you weren’t guaranteed one, was an extremely unpleasant task… but players did it, over and over and over again. And to take an unskilled, inexperienced group of people with different lives, values and personality quirks and turn them into a coordinated team that can take on a vet hard-mode trial, the most difficult content in the game, takes monumental patience and perseverance.

God bless you sir. You have truly made me reevaluate my life. The story of your brave struggles against the adversity life has thrown at you have inspired me to take a long hard look at my own life, and how I can improve it, not only for myself, but everyone around me. I strongly suspect one day you will be Time magazine's "Person of the Year".

mistermacintosh wrote: »

Don’t be angry or disgusted with the players who aren’t willing to push themselves to improve. Pity them. These experiences may not feel like rewards when you’re going through them, but they are the only real thing of value you will carry with you beyond the borders of Tamriel, and are worth more than any title, achievement or stupid hat ever will be. And if you truly want the community to change, to push past the mentality of zerg-balls and lazy, exploitive builds, then show them the way. We can’t and shouldn’t depend on ZOS to do that for us. They can do things to help (many, many things), but ultimately the ESO community is ours to shape.

Thank you. Thank you for your magnanimity, for the sheer generosity you show us filthy casual players, who don't treat the game like a job, who consider (wrongly, I now see) that there may be other things to do in-game than practicing DPS on a dummy to eke out that last 1K. It is true a noble spirit embiggens the smallest man.

You, truly, may be Jesus arisen.

Lake

Starlock wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I'm not sure I want to change the mentality of the community the way you seem to. Your suggestion seems to be that, rather than respectful or helpful towards new/low skill players, that we should be patronizing.

Pity is not really all that much of an improvement over anger and disgust.

Far better to accept and respect different playstyles in the game. To accept and respect that not everyone wants to play at a competitive level and to offer advice kindly when its asked for. To accept and respect that not everyone can play at a competitive level.

Pity is not going change a community for the better, any more than anfer or disgust. Welcoming new players and offering them help respectfully - accepting and respecting all levels of play - that will do far more to improve the community.

Thank you for this.

Why is it so darned hard for folks to understand that people have different gameplay priorities? That some of us really don't give two plucks about competitive gaming like PvP or so-called "endgame?" The OP started off as rather nice and insightful, but when it got into that patronizing nonsense? Seriously? Having different values from you is to be pitied? Give me a break.

👏

Mr_Walker

zyk wrote: »

Look at it from the perspective of long time gamers who, through their enthusiasm and dollars built this industry.

We enjoyed being challenged and problem solving. We enjoyed having to find ways to work together creatively to overcome obstacles.

As a gamer who played the original Wolfenstein 3D upon its release (and even remembers games on cartridges on the c64), I am pleased you have been appointed to the role of spokesperson for us long time gamers. I am concerned some people may have considered we just enjoyed playing games, you know, for fun!

Ugh. Filthy, disgusting "casual" mindset, I see now, thanks to the OP.

VaranisArano

Mr_Walker wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Look at it from the perspective of long time gamers who, through their enthusiasm and dollars built this industry.

We enjoyed being challenged and problem solving. We enjoyed having to find ways to work together creatively to overcome obstacles.

As a gamer who played the original Wolfenstein 3D upon its release (and even remembers games on cartridges on the c64), I am pleased you have been appointed to the role of spokesperson for us long time gamers. I am concerned some people may have considered we just enjoyed playing games, you know, for fun!

Ugh. Filthy, disgusting "casual" mindset, I see now, thanks to the OP.

Now, now, don't get angry or feel disgusted! Have pity for those casuals.

zyk

Mr_Walker wrote: »

As a gamer who played the original Wolfenstein 3D upon its release (and even remembers games on cartridges on the c64), I am pleased you have been appointed to the role of spokesperson for us long time gamers. I am concerned some people may have considered we just enjoyed playing games, you know, for fun!

Ugh. Filthy, disgusting "casual" mindset, I see now, thanks to the OP.

Actually, I played Wolfenstein 3D in Alpha. You may recall you had to learn the rules to succeed in that game, completely unlike ESO.

To me, what makes a game fun an interesting is problem solving. This might mean solving a puzzle or developing muscle memory/improving reflexes or thinking of something clever outside of the box. I know I wasn't the only one who enjoyed this because almost every great game until the PS3/Xbox 360 generation required overcoming challenges.

I also know that I am not alone in my opinion because it has been widely discussed in gaming communities for over a decade. There have been extremely high profile controversies such as when a Bioware writer suggested players should be allowed to skip content they don't enjoy which resulted in her resignation.

Even inn ESO, there was much pushback against the original Vet content nerf in 2014. Today, there is much grief in the hardcore PVP community about the stated goal of ZOS to "raise the floor and lower the ceiling."

But maybe you used cheat codes? Was idkfa your thing in Doom? I took pleasure in completing games without those.

VaranisArano

zyk wrote: »

Mr_Walker wrote: »

As a gamer who played the original Wolfenstein 3D upon its release (and even remembers games on cartridges on the c64), I am pleased you have been appointed to the role of spokesperson for us long time gamers. I am concerned some people may have considered we just enjoyed playing games, you know, for fun!

Ugh. Filthy, disgusting "casual" mindset, I see now, thanks to the OP.

Actually, I played Wolfenstein 3D in Alpha. You may recall you had to learn the rules to succeed in that game, completely unlike ESO.

To me, what makes a game fun an interesting is problem solving. This might mean solving a puzzle or developing muscle memory/improving reflexes or thinking of something clever outside of the box. I know I wasn't the only one who enjoyed this because almost every great game until the PS3/Xbox 360 generation required overcoming challenges.

I also know that I am not alone in my opinion because it has been widely discussed in gaming communities for over a decade. There have been extremely high profile controversies such as when a Bioware writer suggested players should be allowed to skip content they don't enjoy which resulted in her resignation.

Even inn ESO, there was much pushback against the original Vet content nerf in 2014. Today, there is much grief in the hardcore PVP community about the stated goal of ZOS to "raise the floor and lower the ceiling."

But maybe you used cheat codes? Was idkfa your thing in Doom? I took pleasure in completing games without those.

Chill on the insults, okay? I get that its frustrating to watch the industry change and produce less of the games you love, but can we have a civil conversation?

ESO's not as hard as other games. It never was, even before One Tamriel.

Ragebinder and Blaze kicked my level 9 Dunmer butt. I leveled up to 11, came back, and kicked their butt instead. My level 15 stam sorc started hitting the artificial miss chance because she could handle higher level quests, if it werent for the miss chance penalty that kept us railroaded. Harvesters were brutal at level 46 in Coldharbor until I finally learned the secret. Interrupt them!

Its not like you don't have to learn how to play ESO. Every so often, we get frustrated new players who hit some quest boss (K'Torra's the latest example) and just can't manage it. Then we have to run the whole spiel: "Are you stam or magicka? Okay, choose one, it makes your skills hit harder. Now pick weapons that go with stam or magicka. Now, use Endless Hail or Wall of Elements for your DOT..." So on and so forth. Teaching new players the basics of the game. Sharing what we learned about how the game works. Most DPS rotations are learned from other players because the gae sure doesnt teach you how to do it.

Oh, and PVP? ZOS' floor/ceiling business is doomed, because the real floor and ceiling of PVP is skill and experience. PVP has an incredibly steep learning curve and I dont see where ZOS has managed to make a difference in teaching players how to effectively PVP. Because what it takes is, again, players helping players saying "Wear impen trait gear, figure out how to burst damage or keep the pressure on, use self heals proactively, here's how you find fights in Cyrodiil," so on and so forth. Its practice and learning2play. And its a lot easier whe, you have help and advice from other players.


So it's not like there's nothing players have to learn in ESO. One the other hand, if you want a game where you'll be strictly punished for failing to learn, ESO isn't that game, short of people yelling at you if you can't handle group content or people mocking you if you suck at PVP.

Which is sort of what this whole thread is about. ESO has levels of content and not everyone wants to or can play at all levels of content. If you want more challenging levels of content, you have to encourage more people to try that challenging content. I love PVP, and I know lots of people don't ad I kniw it has a steep learning curve. I try to be welcoming and to share what I know makes PVP easier because I love it and I want more people to be willing to give it a try. If you love problem solving and games where you have to learn the rules to succeed, well, it might be worth considering that. ZOS isn't likely to make the game harder while lots of players are still learning the basics - and looking down on those players doesn't help with preparing them for harder content. Welcoming them, offering them encouragement and good advice, and teaching them how to succeed at ESO is far more likely to create a capable end-game community that can handle harder end-game content.

Mr_Walker

zyk wrote: »

But maybe you used cheat codes? Was idkfa your thing in Doom? I took pleasure in completing games without those.

Seems to be an assumption there. I didn't use cheat codes. I don't think I've ever used cheat codes. I'm glad I didn't now, it would make me even more a filthy casual.

Srsly, the closest I've ever come to using a cheat code was to use the alchemy crafting loop on a toon in Skyrim to raise my weapon approx 1.3 past the "true" limit, in service of creating a true glass cannon build. Most fun I've ever had in a game TBH.

I will admit though to creating a set of massively op armor and my weapon ROFLSTOMP, that did insane amounts of damage, but I was well past end game on 3 diff toons by then, and some days you just want to smack crap out of everything in a dungeon.

I am ashamed of this now, this thread has opened my eyes to my worthlessness.

Beardimus

Hmmm not fully sure what this thread is about. I'm all for helping new players, here, in game, crafting, progress. And have seen some of the elite snobbery in trials community.

However I'm fundamentaly against entitlement and the everyone can win mindset. I disagree with comment like :

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Yes. There are people that use video games as an excuse to virtue signal about important real life values like working hard and being persistent.

I wouldn't worry about their misplaced ramblings. We all know it's just a video game and it's meant for fun.

As i do think some things in game should take effort. The game has catered to casual play more and more and more, and actually that can take something away from.those of us that like to set a goal, be persistent, and make that goal AND then get that satisfaction that comes from achicing something difficult. Take vMA for example. It's a prime example.

Likewise I believe Emp should be damn hard to get. As for those of us that did it legit. It was. So when I see people get on and start boosting and keep flipping just to 'tick off Emp' for their mate - and at the same time ruin that campaign for others, I do take objection.

So I'm not sure where is thread is going. I'm 100% up for helping new guys progress, and am never snobby however don't think everyone should just be able to 'win' or have everything easy.

It's an MMORPG. If you want instant gratification or easy progress there are other genres. But with help from.cool folks the game can be made easier. And that's my point.