A Trophy For Everyone

Reistr_the_Unbroken

Beardimus wrote: »

Hmmm not fully sure what this thread is about. I'm all for helping new players, here, in game, crafting, progress. And have seen some of the elite snobbery in trials community.

However I'm fundamentaly against entitlement and the everyone can win mindset. I disagree with comment like :

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Yes. There are people that use video games as an excuse to virtue signal about important real life values like working hard and being persistent.

I wouldn't worry about their misplaced ramblings. We all know it's just a video game and it's meant for fun.

As i do think some things in game should take effort. The game has catered to casual play more and more and more, and actually that can take something away from.those of us that like to set a goal, be persistent, and make that goal AND then get that satisfaction that comes from achicing something difficult. Take vMA for example. It's a prime example.

Likewise I believe Emp should be damn hard to get. As for those of us that did it legit. It was. So when I see people get on and start boosting and keep flipping just to 'tick off Emp' for their mate - and at the same time ruin that campaign for others, I do take objection.

So I'm not sure where is thread is going. I'm 100% up for helping new guys progress, and am never snobby however don't think everyone should just be able to 'win' or have everything easy.

It's an MMORPG. If you want instant gratification or easy progress there are other genres. But with help from.cool folks the game can be made easier. And that's my point.

Not everyone wants a game like Wildstar either, except the hardcore elitists.

As I’ve stated in another thread:

If I play a game, I definitely don’t want it to be catered to “hardcore players” to the point where it’s difficult for me to play and becomes too frustrating and not fun in under an hour. That’s how a game loses the majority of players because the company expected too much of the players that want or actually need something easier. I looked up Wildstar because I was curious and my god, the hardcore fanatics were so rude on the forums yelling about how “easy” the game was and how new players should “get gud”.

Edit: also a game is for people to relax after homework or school, not to be more stressful.

Knootewoot

I like a challenging game. I played Vanguard Sage of Heroes, had the raid Gryphon as a mount, got the egg-incubator from the dragon in Ancient Port Warehouse and could craft Galleons. So yeah i know tough gameplay.

But it should not be frustrating. In ESO a trial is more frustrating then fun. Mobs that come in waves which are nothing but a nuisance and boring trial fillers. Bosses with trillions of health with one-shot mechanics. It's not only hard, it's lazy game design and not fun.

The over world is to easy though.

Yeah, i am in for a challenge if it is fun to play. Because that is why i play games, to have fun. And not all content should be very hard because sometimes you come from work and want to just relax and kill stuff. I think it's hard to find the middleground here. But that is why i play different games. Sometimes hardcore which i play on friday night when i have time to get deep into the game. But during the week when i come home from work, i pull out my blaster and shoot people in the face in Battlefront 2.

Mr_Walker

Knootewoot wrote: »

The over world is to easy though.

...


Sometimes hardcore which i play on friday night when i have time to get deep into the game.

Have to disagree with you right here. Friday night, I'm ripping the scab off a few cans, and just chilling with overworld content, a bit of light questing, dailies. Good times.

I'm a filthy casual though. Sometimes, I just want to rip in, you know.

Knootewoot

Mr_Walker wrote: »

Knootewoot wrote: »

The over world is to easy though.

...


Sometimes hardcore which i play on friday night when i have time to get deep into the game.

Have to disagree with you right here. Friday night, I'm ripping the scab off a few cans, and just chilling with overworld content, a bit of light questing, dailies. Good times.

I'm a filthy casual though. Sometimes, I just want to rip in, you know.

Yeah, sadly for me friday night is the only night i have time or hardcore gaming. Other nights are either occupied or just to short time.
I think some day friday night will become Pantheon night.

srfrogg23

Beardimus wrote: »

Hmmm not fully sure what this thread is about. I'm all for helping new players, here, in game, crafting, progress. And have seen some of the elite snobbery in trials community.

However I'm fundamentaly against entitlement and the everyone can win mindset. I disagree with comment like :

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Yes. There are people that use video games as an excuse to virtue signal about important real life values like working hard and being persistent.

I wouldn't worry about their misplaced ramblings. We all know it's just a video game and it's meant for fun.

As i do think some things in game should take effort. The game has catered to casual play more and more and more, and actually that can take something away from.those of us that like to set a goal, be persistent, and make that goal AND then get that satisfaction that comes from achicing something difficult. Take vMA for example. It's a prime example.

Likewise I believe Emp should be damn hard to get. As for those of us that did it legit. It was. So when I see people get on and start boosting and keep flipping just to 'tick off Emp' for their mate - and at the same time ruin that campaign for others, I do take objection.

So I'm not sure where is thread is going. I'm 100% up for helping new guys progress, and am never snobby however don't think everyone should just be able to 'win' or have everything easy.

It's an MMORPG. If you want instant gratification or easy progress there are other genres. But with help from.cool folks the game can be made easier. And that's my point.

I'm all for challenge in video games. I don't have an issue with it. If that's what people find fun, then more power to them. I think the heart of what the OP was getting at was the elitist attitudes that people have about it.

It's a video game. People play it for fun. Some people find more challenging content to be more fun but they're still doing it for fun. When people start getting nasty about it because someone else doesn't find that style of gameplay fun, that's when it becomes annoying.

He's talking about the people out there that belittle other players, calling them "lazy", "entitled", "potatoes", and so on based on the idea that "you need to work for what you want" when playing with your favorite toy. That illustrates a pretty substantial misunderstanding of the purpose of entertainment and a lack of empathy.

johnbonne

“Everyone get’s a trophy”: I’ve heard lot’s of people say this. Usually it’s followed by a speech about how lazy millennials are, but every now and then I hear this in ESO… and I wonder why? Why do players let this mentality bother them?

I often counter the "entitled millenials" mindset by saying that there was a generation that told them everyone is a winner, and that the pre-millenials were the ones handing out the participation trophies. I remember in my childhood years I was rather competitive, obsessed with winning (and cheating to reach that end, admittedly). I find participation awards insulting quite frankly. If others enjoy them, good on them, but not getting something means I have to do more to earn the one, true reward. In video gaming that makes me a better player, and in group content, I want to be able to pick up any slack there may be.

But if you look at it from a corporate perspective (and you should if you really want to understand ZOS’ motivations), then you’ll realize that they have to prioritize the general community over the elite to maximize their customer base (and keep the game profitable).

Before I comment on this I'll just say anything I don't quote I can't comment on because I simply agree with it. This point however deserves highlighting: it's the reason why a 2014 'hardcore' MMO (whose name I shan't mention 'lest we derail and lock this wonderful thread) lost a lot of its momentum early on. It didn't have an answer to the question "and then what?" after it listed all its features, which were quests, housing, 40M raiding and PvP. Housing and levelling were only there for the so-called filthy casuals who, let's be real here, are the lifeblood of an MMO. You'll always have diehard players at the top end, dominating it if it's a PvP space, but you need those less skilled or less able-to-commit players in the lower and middle tiers.

And if you truly want the community to change, to push past the mentality of zerg-balls and lazy, exploitive builds, then show them the way. We can’t and shouldn’t depend on ZOS to do that for us. They can do things to help (many, many things), but ultimately the ESO community is ours to shape.

What a phenomenal way to end your post, I wholeheartedly agree. "Be the change you want to see" is an oft spoken but rarely acted-upon attitude, especially on forums with dedicated, jaded players (no offence intended; I'm just that and more on the EU WoW forums). There's not one player who started knowing everything and has been consistently number one, and I politely ask people keep that in mind before haranguing others for being n00bz0rz.

+1 Agree. I deeply regret not being able to do more. ^^

craftycarper73

delete

Jameliel

Why care what anyone thinks in this mediocre lag fest of a game? When I occasionally get tells from someone who killed me when In lagging super hard, or someone berates me for dying in pvp I just ignore them. In pve who gives a f also? Different styles of play for different people. If someone wants a smooth run in a vet dlc dungeon, then put together a custom group. When I need to run a vet dungeon I'm not used to, I ask hardcore pve buddies to help. I don't go jumping in randomly and then complaining. A lot of people playing eso have severe personality defects.

VaranisArano

Jameliel wrote: »

Why care what anyone thinks in this mediocre lag fest of a game? When I occasionally get tells from someone who killed me when In lagging super hard, or someone berates me for dying in pvp I just ignore them. In pve who gives a f also? Different styles of play for different people. If someone wants a smooth run in a vet dlc dungeon, then put together a custom group. When I need to run a vet dungeon I'm not used to, I ask hardcore pve buddies to help. I don't go jumping in randomly and then complaining. A lot of people playing eso have severe personality defects.

I was agreeing so much right up up until the last sentence.

I dont think its personality defects as much as its people feeling empowered to act like jerks because they are relatively anyonymous on the internet. That's something well established and we're all prone to it at times.

Kiralyn2000

zyk wrote: »

To me, what makes a game fun an interesting is problem solving. This might mean solving a puzzle or developing muscle memory/improving reflexes or thinking of something clever outside of the box. I know I wasn't the only one who enjoyed this because almost every great game until the PS3/Xbox 360 generation required overcoming challenges.

"To me" is the key phrase here. And sure, you're allowed to have your own things you enjoy.

Just stop speaking "we" for all "old skool" gamers, as if they all are a unified block behind you. Different people these days have different things they enjoy? News flash - it was that way back in the Good Old Days™, too.

And no, we didn't use cheat codes - remember that games had difficulty settings. I played Doom on Normal, you likely played it on Hurt Me Plenty. And that's fine.
(edit: well, ok, sometimes there were cheat codes - it was fun to take piles of $, quick-build a fancy city in Sim City, and then throw endless disasters at it. )



Sorry, only been playing computer games since 1980. Oh, wait, no.... I probably played the original text Adventure ("You're in a twisty little maze of passages, all alike.") earlier than that - my father would bring home an analog-modem/thermal-printer terminal so that we could connect to a Bell Labs mainframe to try out this "computer" thing. <hipster>Does that increase my Old Skool Gamer rank?</hipster>

(And no, I haven't been a "challenge gamer" for quite awhile. No longer being a highschool & college student with too much time on my hands, I don't quite have the time to dedicate 100+ hours a week to slamming my head against a roadblock. Nor do I derive my sense of self-worth from what games I've "beaten". I just play games for fun these days. And I've almost always played games on "normal" difficulty anyway. So perhaps I'm a "potato" here - that's fine, I don't join your dungeon runs. That group stuff is annoying anyway. Eh, whaever)

Androconium

MattT1988 wrote: »

Androconium wrote: »

Conduit0 wrote: »

You do realize no one would have an issue with potato players if they stuck to potato content? They do not however and its incredibly frustrating to have a no skill player hopping into vet/dlc dungeons and Battlegrounds and literally dragging the entire group down because they can't pull their own weight, refuse to learn mechanics, and get pissy and scream, "I play the way I want!" when you try to offer them advice to improve.

Playing the way you want is a fundamental element of TES games.

Sure. If your doing solo content. Group content however, that goes out the window somewhat. This might be a TES game but it is also an MMO, which means your required to be a good team player every now and then and set your character up for efficiency when your doing group content.

I don't agree.

As a team player, you're expected to deal with whatever team members you end up with. Sometimes that won't be as good as you want and you may have to demonstrate your own personal resilience by having to work harder.

For a lot of TES players, this is their first time in MMO. It isn't just "the latest" MMO for conquering MMO heroes to conquer.

That said I think that there should be some achievements that unlock VETERAN dungeons before you can access them.
If there are already, then it shows how little I care about VET content.

Enjoy.

Androconium

VaranisArano wrote: »

Androconium wrote: »

Conduit0 wrote: »

You do realize no one would have an issue with potato players if they stuck to potato content? They do not however and its incredibly frustrating to have a no skill player hopping into vet/dlc dungeons and Battlegrounds and literally dragging the entire group down because they can't pull their own weight, refuse to learn mechanics, and get pissy and scream, "I play the way I want!" when you try to offer them advice to improve.

Playing the way you want is a fundamental element of TES games.

Sort of.

Generally the TES games have allowed every playstyle to be effective (as long as you didnt screw up your build in Oblivion). Part of that is that the difficulty cap is lower and you can more easily scale up your effectiveness with better enchantments and potions. Assuming you didn't wander somewhere you shouldnt early on in Morrowind, nearly every variation of fighter, mage, and thief can complete all the content.

That's just not the case in ESO. In ESO, there are DPS caps for different levels of content. If your build and rotation can reach that, you can do the content. If your build and rotation can't, you can't. That's why hybrids struggle - the current way ZOS handles stat-scaling DPS means hybrid builds get shortchanged with end-game DPS. And in PVP, you can play the way you want, but you'd better be really good or you will probably die more than the guys who play the meta decently.

And in ESO's group content, its a team effort. There's a certain expectation that "play the way you want" means filling the job you selected to be on the team. Whether that's 3 or 11 other people, you are part of a team effort when you group up for dungeons and trials.


So, I understand the frustration that comes from dealing with players who aren't fulfilling their role. I get really frustrated myself with fake tanks who refuse to slot a taunt after my healer ends up with boss aggro or the boss aggros on a squishy DPS who decides to kite. That's "playing the way they want" to the detriment of the team. (Yes, I know fake tank = extra DPS, but when it causes a problem, please, slot a taunt.)

On the other hand, I think there's a big difference between offering help and advice to inexperienced players who want it and the sort of patronizing "advice" we're all familiar with that does more harm than good. A truly inexperienced or new player, including those trying out harder content than they are used to, needs support and encouragement. Someone who is trying to tank or who needs help learning to tank effectively gets a much more helpful response from me than a fake tank who laughs off my request for them to hold boss aggro.

Basically, if we want players to do better when they try out harder content, we have to be supportive when they ask for help. We definitely shouldn't treat inexperienced players with the same dismissiveness we feel towards those intentionally not filling their roles.

My experience started with Morrowind. That game was designed to allow players to do the quests etc or just run around having fun as you saw fit. I didn't play Oblivion.

I do acknowledge that players need to have preparation to play some aspects of ESO. But as I said in a previous response; there are a lot of players coming to ESO who don't have any MMO experience, including me. There IS a cultural clash between the two gameplay styles. That means both streams need to acknowledge that the other exists, for different reasons.

For me, I can never get the "Saviour of Nirn" acheivement by completing the Cyrodiil anchors. I also miss out on the skyshards in Cyrodiil. Last time I was in Cyrodiil I got sniped by another player before I could finish the task I was on. It wasn't a campaign activity. I just got nailed for someone else's fun.

Panomania

Some people play just to escape, relax, unwind, whatever....and prefer a hypercasual game like ESO. Thats neither superior or inferior to other games....its just different.

Some prefer to look at a game as a hobby, akin to how some collect coins or comics, restore antiques or old cars, or even golf (never will understand that one). They want something that challenges them....that is involved, takes time and effort, and gives a sense of accomplishment when a particularly hard or lengthy quest or encounter is won. Thats neither superior or inferior to other games....its just different.

The problem? The first type game is several times more profitable than the second, so it makes up 99.99% of MMOs out atm. It leaves the second type gamer out in the cold. It would be great if someone could develop a game that was able to be both, but as of yet no one's been able to....so hobbyist gamers are screwed by and large. Thats why you hear the "trophy for everyone" argument.

Itacira

@Hymzir can't "awesome" you reply enough

D0PAMINE

People should be up to the task of taking things they volunteer for seriously, like Dungeons for instance, because it can affect other players if they dont. I don't care if someone is dying a ton because they're unfamiliar, but I appreciate if they at least try. I got heat in Vet Arx for asking why the DPS was using DW and a damm Ice Staff. I was tanking, my taunt wasnt stolen for long because he kept dying. Im not going to sit there for 25 minutes because that dude and the group were ignorant. I had to spam chains on the last boss, and that guy also hit the HM scroll. He didnt earn that helm and key and was dead the whole time.

Edited.

VaranisArano

Androconium wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Androconium wrote: »

Conduit0 wrote: »

You do realize no one would have an issue with potato players if they stuck to potato content? They do not however and its incredibly frustrating to have a no skill player hopping into vet/dlc dungeons and Battlegrounds and literally dragging the entire group down because they can't pull their own weight, refuse to learn mechanics, and get pissy and scream, "I play the way I want!" when you try to offer them advice to improve.

Playing the way you want is a fundamental element of TES games.

Sort of.

Generally the TES games have allowed every playstyle to be effective (as long as you didnt screw up your build in Oblivion). Part of that is that the difficulty cap is lower and you can more easily scale up your effectiveness with better enchantments and potions. Assuming you didn't wander somewhere you shouldnt early on in Morrowind, nearly every variation of fighter, mage, and thief can complete all the content.

That's just not the case in ESO. In ESO, there are DPS caps for different levels of content. If your build and rotation can reach that, you can do the content. If your build and rotation can't, you can't. That's why hybrids struggle - the current way ZOS handles stat-scaling DPS means hybrid builds get shortchanged with end-game DPS. And in PVP, you can play the way you want, but you'd better be really good or you will probably die more than the guys who play the meta decently.

And in ESO's group content, its a team effort. There's a certain expectation that "play the way you want" means filling the job you selected to be on the team. Whether that's 3 or 11 other people, you are part of a team effort when you group up for dungeons and trials.


So, I understand the frustration that comes from dealing with players who aren't fulfilling their role. I get really frustrated myself with fake tanks who refuse to slot a taunt after my healer ends up with boss aggro or the boss aggros on a squishy DPS who decides to kite. That's "playing the way they want" to the detriment of the team. (Yes, I know fake tank = extra DPS, but when it causes a problem, please, slot a taunt.)

On the other hand, I think there's a big difference between offering help and advice to inexperienced players who want it and the sort of patronizing "advice" we're all familiar with that does more harm than good. A truly inexperienced or new player, including those trying out harder content than they are used to, needs support and encouragement. Someone who is trying to tank or who needs help learning to tank effectively gets a much more helpful response from me than a fake tank who laughs off my request for them to hold boss aggro.

Basically, if we want players to do better when they try out harder content, we have to be supportive when they ask for help. We definitely shouldn't treat inexperienced players with the same dismissiveness we feel towards those intentionally not filling their roles.

My experience started with Morrowind. That game was designed to allow players to do the quests etc or just run around having fun as you saw fit. I didn't play Oblivion.

I do acknowledge that players need to have preparation to play some aspects of ESO. But as I said in a previous response; there are a lot of players coming to ESO who don't have any MMO experience, including me. There IS a cultural clash between the two gameplay styles. That means both streams need to acknowledge that the other exists, for different reasons.

For me, I can never get the "Saviour of Nirn" acheivement by completing the Cyrodiil anchors. I also miss out on the skyshards in Cyrodiil. Last time I was in Cyrodiil I got sniped by another player before I could finish the task I was on. It wasn't a campaign activity. I just got nailed for someone else's fun.

Sure. Both types exists. I came to ESO from Skyrim, played Oblivion and Morrowind later. I was PVE-only for a long time.

Unlike the single player TES games, ESO does require players to play in a certain way if they want to succeed in end-game content like dungeons, trials, and PVP. I dont think we disagree there?

Now, I'm all for respecting other people's gameplay preferences and offering helpful advice to those who ask for it. But there's one thing I don't understand. Why do people wander into a PVP-enabled zone like Cyrodiil and expect people not to engage them in PVP?

That's not a "cultural clash". I was a solid PVE-only player who hated the thought of PVP when I got my Master Angler fish from Cyrodiil and I was prepared to die to get them since I knew I had no clue how to PVP. I did get ganked, I snuck around, and I did what I had to do to get those fish because I wanted that title. I'm not saying that everyone has to PVP, or has to like PVP, because I know full well not everyone can or just really hates it. Thats totally fine!

Just...its not a "cultural clash" when you go PVE in a PVP-enabled zone and someone engages you in PVP. That's exactly what the zone is designed for. My advice for players in that situation who want to try for skyshards etc (and if you dont want to try, thats fine!) Is to prepare to fight (impen gear, burst damage, proactive heals) or prepare to hide (stealth pots are great) or get with a group for safety in numbers.

Jameliel

VaranisArano wrote: »

Jameliel wrote: »

Why care what anyone thinks in this mediocre lag fest of a game? When I occasionally get tells from someone who killed me when In lagging super hard, or someone berates me for dying in pvp I just ignore them. In pve who gives a f also? Different styles of play for different people. If someone wants a smooth run in a vet dlc dungeon, then put together a custom group. When I need to run a vet dungeon I'm not used to, I ask hardcore pve buddies to help. I don't go jumping in randomly and then complaining. A lot of people playing eso have severe personality defects.

I was agreeing so much right up up until the last sentence.

I dont think its personality defects as much as its people feeling empowered to act like jerks because they are relatively anyonymous on the internet. That's something well established and we're all prone to it at times.

That's known as a personality defect. You're right, we all have them.

mistermacintosh

Every single one of you totally missed or ignored the point of this thread. And now I know better than to try express something real, something I formulated from experiences I've had over years of playing this game, that I thought might actually help build a bridge between generations of players.

You don't want that - you want to blast each other over stupid s***, and stick f****** emojis on it. Knock yourselves out.

Jaimeh

Yup, as VaranisArano mentioned above, pity is not something I'd want to do. Despite all the flack that ZOS' 'play as you like' motto gets, I do appreciate it, because it works up to end-game (and if you are a good player you can make it work for end-game as well), and it makes the game extremely multi-faceted and very accessible to casual gamers. RP'ing, market economy, housing, questing, can be done with any character set-up, and for some people these things *are* the game. You can play ESO without having stepped foot in a trial or in Cyrodiil, it all comes back to what an individual enjoys. What we could do to improve the community is to help people who want to learn, and for ourselves, to have patience. It's OK though if somebody doesn't have time or patience, just don't join PUGs, and play with pre-made groups. For the most part I think this community is friendly and helpful to each other, and I like that not everyone is focused on the same thing--it makes for a more interesting, thriving community.

Hamrb

https://youtu.be/LQCU36pkH7c?t=3s

Hamrb

sure, coordinating a raid team takes patience but i mean, its your fault if you form the group full of people that dont really want to make the leap.

ive ran all sorts of raid teams, from leaderboard runs to training

when the teams have succeeded it had as much to do with me being the leader as it did with them being in group. sure raid leaders put in a little extra time, but its the group that makes the leap not the leader.

when ive ran groups that failed or made me want to pull my hair out, it was really mostly on me for putting together a team that made me feel that way.

this isnt about dps checks and gear checks etc... its about finding 11 other people who actually are willing to work together, take criticism, and grow

johnbonne

Hamrb wrote: »

sure, coordinating a raid team takes patience but i mean, its your fault if you form the group full of people that dont really want to make the leap.

ive ran all sorts of raid teams, from leaderboard runs to training

when the teams have succeeded it had as much to do with me being the leader as it did with them being in group. sure raid leaders put in a little extra time, but its the group that makes the leap not the leader.

when ive ran groups that failed or made me want to pull my hair out, it was really mostly on me for putting together a team that made me feel that way.

this isnt about dps checks and gear checks etc... its about finding 11 other people who actually are willing to work together, take criticism, and grow

"I am not afraid an army of lions led by a sheep. I am afraid of an army of sheep led by a lion." - Alexander the Great. I've always liked that quote for management and leadership. Quite a few of Sun Tzu's works translate in the real world too.

Thannazzar

Have no issue with what you have posted from the point of view of personal or team achievement. I applause those who work hard and succeed in the games hardest and most skillful activities. Especially those who do so just for the sense. Of achievement of beating this content.

However ZOSs reward system of locking dyes, skins and other cosmetics behind this content is reprehensible.

By all means I applaud greater rewards for more challenging content. Perfected weapons are a great example of rewards focused towards the activity they support. By all means award titles, progression gear and PVP centric advanced gear to specific activities that they assist.

Cosmetics, however, are desired by the entire player base and gating them behind dlc and trial hard-mode-plus content will inevitably lead to the death of the game in the same way most mmos have gone when they followed the EQ2 model of only rewarding PVP and endgame progression raiding.