Dark Cloak heal..

olsborg

It only takes spellcritical into account, not weaponcritical.

Also most of us would like a new animation on this morph. No more crouch when you cast it pls and possibly a new sound to something less rogueish. Thx

TheYKcid

ZOS also acknowledged that the minor protection duration was too short. Still waiting to see that reflected in the PTS notes...

Silver_Strider

Move the Minor Protection to Refreshing Path and add a Purge effect to Dark Cloak instead, like in the good old days.

DeadlyRecluse

I hate the crouch animation. It could really use a new visual.

The spell critical thing is likely intended...it scales of HP but costs magicka--vamp drain is somewhat similar (heal scales off of missing HP, but the heal draws from spell crit). It's hard to say for sure because there just aren't that many HP abilities--I think Blazing Shield is the same way (scales from HP, uses spell crit to determine if the damage crits).

Wuuffyy

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Move the Minor Protection to Refreshing Path and add a Purge effect to Dark Cloak instead, like in the good old days.

Yes

olsborg

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

I hate the crouch animation. It could really use a new visual.

The spell critical thing is likely intended...it scales of HP but costs magicka--vamp drain is somewhat similar (heal scales off of missing HP, but the heal draws from spell crit). It's hard to say for sure because there just aren't that many HP abilities--I think Blazing Shield is the same way (scales from HP, uses spell crit to determine if the damage crits).

Yea, I just wish they would make it scale off the biggest, because anything that scales of health should be more viable for both types of build imo. But my biggest issue rly is the animation. I dont want to have a crouching animation and sound when im a brawler build or a tank.

umagon

Minor protection doesn’t even add much value to damage mitigation on a tank. It translates to about 1% less damage on average. I like the idea of a purge replacing it.

aeowulf

Don't mention the dark cloak. It will get changed to run off healthcrit...

ESO_Nightingale

TheYKcid wrote: »

ZOS also acknowledged that the minor protection duration was too short. Still waiting to see that reflected in the PTS notes...

Still waiting to see anything reflected in the pts notes imo. Especially for magden. We just got our *** *** with overcompensation nerfs.

DeadlyRecluse

umagon wrote: »

Minor protection doesn’t even add much value to damage mitigation on a tank. It translates to about 1% less damage on average. I like the idea of a purge replacing it.

purgecloak (back when dots still broke cloak) was my favorite iteration of the skill. It made it worth casting even in fights where the stealth aspect of cloak was being effectively countered.

jypcy

Interesting that the animation is an issue. What would you suggest instead? Something like the defensive posture animation?

Also, thoughts on replacing minor protection with some type of dodge (especially if it keeps the current animation)? I’d think either ~1 second phase buff or 100% chance to dodge the next attack that occurs within 3.5 seconds. That way it’d at least retain some semblance of the functionality of the original skill while still making it a reasonable choice between the two morphs.

Edit: and I’m pretty sure it’s called phase, but I’m referring to whatever the buff you get while dodge rolling that causes attacks to miss is.

DeadlyRecluse

jypcy wrote: »

Interesting that the animation is an issue. What would you suggest instead? Something like the defensive posture animation?

Something akin to the dragon's blood or vigor animation, imo. They kind of nail the "self heal from within" animation, with the chest puffing up and arms flexing.

Datthaw

They could copy and paste the grim focus animation

olsborg

The char animation of vigor would be better, the turning black could stay imo, i dont mind, the sound could also be changed to some kinda battleyell.

Xeniph

I rather like the animation and love the minor protection thank you.

It makes people think you are trying to stealth and run away in pvp lol. They then spam aoes for no good reason.

aeowulf

4 seconds of a minor buff isn't much - I was under the impression minor buffs were long duration and majors short (but more effctive)

As a struggling NB tank, I think we are lacking in cc immunity which we don't have compared to other tanks that get this through perma block. The exact point where I struggle is in trash packs where there is something that hits really hard. For example, vFH - some of those trash packs have minotaurs that clobber for 50-60k if you're not blocking. I can spot 95%+ of these because i'm looking out for them, but there are still a few that get through and will usually see me dead. What I can't spot are the ranged casters that drop some form of CC on me & because i'm not blocking there is a second or so where I am breaking free and unable to block. There is an alarming regularity of perfect timing from the minotaurs managing to land their clobber just as I break free - and I will be dead, even with 70k health. 70k may sound a lot, but NB tank will take way more damage than a non-NB tank, 1/3 extra infact. (Or a non-NB will take 25% less of ALL damage and not be susceptible to any CC, depending on how you look at it) so that pool really is needed imho, and that really hurts resources elsewhere. I struggle with sustain a lot, mostly because of this.

If NB tanks are meant to be running around and getting out the way of these things, they need some way of not being suppressed by CC, just like other tanks that can permablocking. Changing minor protection to something more useful could be a really good option here. It could be something like shield wall or immovable with a 1s duration + 0.5s per heavy armour piece worn. It's a really good opportunity to help out NB tanks, they are getting kicked whilst down in this patch. If this was a school playground, it would be considered bullying.

Would it impact PVP? Well probably not much. PVP NB's run the invis morph, and in PVP invis is really powerful. They can also get immovable from potions if they want it (which is what I tended to do in PVP) If a NB wanted to slot this in PVP over invis, that's one less ganker, which is probably a good thing.

The change of evasion from dodge to damage redux is going to hurt NB tanks. Those clobbers (and i'm just using them as an example) well right now they can be dodged - that saves my life 15% of the time. I struggle with resources and 15% dodge = 15% chance of any blocks not costing me stamina. Also, AE damage is not much of a problem - it's the CC that comes with the AE or straight direct damage that is and neither are addressed by this change. Personally I dislike tava's, but that option as a niche ulti-gen tank is also being removed, just like sap tanking was removed with Morrowind. Minor vitality - removed this patch. Refreshing path - no more damage ticks so threat will not be generated from this skill. Can slot in another, but a skill that is in the shadow line (which from looking at the passives shold be the tank line) is according to the notes, being changed to a DPS or healer only skill. NB tanks do exist, just. This patch may well cause their extinction as I can't see more people being attracted to this class-role combo, but I can see these changes pushing people from this combo.

Strider__Roshin

Crit chance based on highest stat... Increased duration of minor protection...
New animation...

These are things you and many others have requested time and time again. Here's hoping one day we'll get our wish. It would be nice if they were able to increase their staff on the combat balance team. I know it's just a few people that do it.

olsborg

Well hope is all we can do. The day hope is lost, we uninstall😀

Synapsis123

Daus wrote: »

Crit chance based on highest stat... Increased duration of minor protection...
New animation...

Don't really care about the animation, but the other two suggestions are on point.

jypcy

aeowulf wrote: »

As a struggling NB tank, I think we are lacking in cc immunity which we don't have compared to other tanks that get this through perma block. The exact point where I struggle is in trash packs where there is something that hits really hard. For example, vFH - some of those trash packs have minotaurs that clobber for 50-60k if you're not blocking. I can spot 95%+ of these because i'm looking out for them, but there are still a few that get through and will usually see me dead. What I can't spot are the ranged casters that drop some form of CC on me & because i'm not blocking there is a second or so where I am breaking free and unable to block. There is an alarming regularity of perfect timing from the minotaurs managing to land their clobber just as I break free - and I will be dead, even with 70k health. 70k may sound a lot, but NB tank will take way more damage than a non-NB tank, 1/3 extra infact. (Or a non-NB will take 25% less of ALL damage and not be susceptible to any CC, depending on how you look at it) so that pool really is needed imho, and that really hurts resources elsewhere. I struggle with sustain a lot, mostly because of this.

As you run the content you can get used to the timing of things. Offhand, I can’t think of anything that repeatedly performs heavy attacks like that back to back to back except for the pinnacle factotum’s centurions in hof and the yaghra monstrosities in cr after applying baneful mark. For everything else, you should have enough resource to block until you get hit with a heavy, after which you know another high threat attack isn’t coming for a while and can heavy attack/barswap/etc. as needed for a few seconds, and then go back to blocking as you anticipate another heavy upcoming.

What are you referring to by a NB tank taking significantly more damage than any other class? My tankblades all run with ~35k-40k health, as basically all of my tanks do, and that seems to be plenty for them. I’d say it feels tankier to play them than wardens, sorcs, or templars in the current patch. And this is without Swallow Soul or Mirage, since I’ve taken them off my bars to start getting a feel for next patch.

If you’re struggling with sustain, I’d be happy to talk build ideas.

aeowulf

@jypcy Any help is appreciated! I am curious on your builds, I'm definitely in a 'trying things out' zone right now as i'm not overly happy with any of my current ones. I'm trying the 'not blocking much' route but if you block 1 attack, that's your stamina regen gone for 2 seconds, not just the block duration, and if you're unlucky that's also the case if you bash So by not blocking much I am taking much more damage than a build that blocks more, but dark cloak makes up that difference. It's just one extra thing I need to be aware of. Maybe I should just shelve the whole idea of playing my main as a tank

Nicko_Lps

olsborg wrote: »

It only takes spellcritical into account, not weaponcritical.

Also most of us would like a new animation on this morph. No more crouch when you cast it pls and possibly a new sound to something less rogueish. Thx

You want cloak heal to be stamina ?

Are you serious?
You think of nightblades stacking 2x insane HoT's like vigor+Dark stamina cloak heal + rally + rally burst heal will be "balanced?


But ofc forum nb's consider op to be balance

jypcy

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

It only takes spellcritical into account, not weaponcritical.

Also most of us would like a new animation on this morph. No more crouch when you cast it pls and possibly a new sound to something less rogueish. Thx

You want cloak heal to be stamina ?

Are you serious?
You think of nightblades stacking 2x insane HoT's like vigor+Dark stamina cloak heal + rally + rally burst heal will be "balanced?


But ofc forum nb's consider op to be balance

I think the suggestion was for the heal to still cost magicka and be scaled based on health, but to use the highest value between weapon and spell criticals. Not sure whether that assuages your pvp fears or not.

@aeowulf some build thoughts in the spoiler. Also, I meant to mention this before, but from tests that players have done, both damaging and healing actions seem to generate threat. I don’t use path on any of my tankblades personally, but even with the damage from refreshing removed it’s threat gen potential should still be the same as or comparable to what it is this patch.

-Running both a stam weapon (snb) and a magicka weapon (destro/Resto staff) is great for sustain because you can choose which resource you need back when you heavy attack. If you go with ice staff, you can even alternate which resource pool you’re using to block with, and can swap between them to give one a chance to regen after it runs low.

-infused potion cooldown jewels can also help a ton with sustain, and have the added benefit of providing 20 ultimate for nbs (this also works outside of combat, so you can be consuming potions in between pulls/boss fights to have an ultimate ready when it starts). If you have an argonian, even regular trash pots are enough for pretty easy sustain. And if using tripots/an argonian, reduced potion cd helps you gain back all three resources, whereas using block cost redux or magicka recovery glyphs only contribute to one.

-especially with how common some medium sets (e.g., alkosh, powerful assault) are for tanks, running two small medium pieces (hands/waist) can help stam sustain by reducing feat costs (such as dodging and sprinting).

-especially if you run a high health build, equilibrium can help with magicka sustain. I personally use argonian passives/magicka recovery glyphs/destro staff heavies for my nb magicka sustain, though, so cant speak to how useful it is to a nb.

-my argonian tankblade currently runs 2 earthgore, 5 any heavy set (torugs, ebon, whatever), 5 alkosh (jewels/snb/lightning), and trash health pots, with puncture, silver leash, debilitate, heroic slash, dark cloak, and aggressive war horn front bar and time stop, inner fire, elemental blockade, leeching strikes, dark shade, and soul siphon back bar

Silver_Strider

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

It only takes spellcritical into account, not weaponcritical.

Also most of us would like a new animation on this morph. No more crouch when you cast it pls and possibly a new sound to something less rogueish. Thx

You want cloak heal to be stamina ?

Are you serious?
You think of nightblades stacking 2x insane HoT's like vigor+Dark stamina cloak heal + rally + rally burst heal will be "balanced?


But ofc forum nb's consider op to be balance

No, he's asking for the Tank heal to take into consideration which crit stat is currently higher. NB have naturally higher Weapon Crit than Spell Crit meaning a NB Tank is losing out on those extra crit chances for Dark Cloak to crit because it only goes off of Spell Crit.

It's not as though Dark Cloak can't be used by a Stamblade already since it scales on Health anyways that the ability costing Magic or Stamina is irrelevant but the Spell Crit factor is where the ability fails to take different specs into consideration.

jypcy

@Nicko_Lps I actually wasn’t offering my opinion on stat scaling, just clarifying what the op suggested. I think if it were to scale with weapon crit as well then all health based heals should. I’m not really opinionated on whether all or none should.

I also think you really have to misconstrue what I’m saying to consider it whining lol. I’ve been around the forums trying to assuage fears of tankblades with the coming of murkmire because, I agree, I think they’re a lot of fun, I don’t think the changes are a big deal, and even changing my builds to reflect what next patch would look like, tankblades are still totally viable.

If you need an aoe root, I recommend blockade of frost. Time stop and volcanic rune are also viable cc, but maybe not quite what you’re looking for.

jypcy

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

jypcy wrote: »

@Nicko_Lps I actually wasn’t offering my opinion on stat scaling, just clarifying what the op suggested. I think if it were to scale with weapon crit as well then all health based heals should. I’m not really opinionated on whether all or none should.

I also think you really have to misconstrue what I’m saying to consider it whining lol. I’ve been around the forums trying to assuage fears of tankblades with the coming of murkmire because, I agree, I think they’re a lot of fun, I don’t think the changes are a big deal, and even changing my builds to reflect what next patch would look like, tankblades are still totally viable.

If you need an aoe root, I recommend blockade of frost. Time stop and volcanic rune are also viable cc, but maybe not quite what you’re looking for.

Well atm BleedBlades stacking vigor+darkCloak+Rally+rally burst burstheal is kinda OP. I understand that you want something more in your nightblade tank but, do not forget your tank has mirage too I LOVED IT as nb tank.

No, blockade of frost is not what im looking for since a proper tank should have a lightning staff backbar i guess. Talons or Encase is what im looking for, the could change that hilarious Debilitate that i think probably nobody is using to an AoE root with a very low dmg, that would be an amazing improvement to NB tanks i guess.

Again, I’ve no complaints about nb tanks currently, and similarly have no opinion on whether health based heals should take either crit stat into consideration. Just here to clear up misconceptions.

Although for the record, major evasion changing from a passive dodge chance to passive aoe reduction makes mirage perhaps less appealing to tanks. Im still undecided whether I’ll run it now or not.

Also, with changes to offbalance, it’s less critical to run lightning backbar now. Stam dps and heavy attack builds are mostly the only ones to benefit much from it, so it’s a fair consideration to use other elements nowadays. Especially if you struggle to keep adds stacked, maintaining a tighter grouping of targets likely will net you more dps than a minute chance to proc concussion and periodic offbalance uptime, even if playing with stam dps and heavy attack builds.

Edit: sorry, though, this is starting to get mostly off topic from dark cloak, so I’ll discontinue other discussions.

Nicko_Lps

jypcy wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

jypcy wrote: »

@Nicko_Lps I actually wasn’t offering my opinion on stat scaling, just clarifying what the op suggested. I think if it were to scale with weapon crit as well then all health based heals should. I’m not really opinionated on whether all or none should.

I also think you really have to misconstrue what I’m saying to consider it whining lol. I’ve been around the forums trying to assuage fears of tankblades with the coming of murkmire because, I agree, I think they’re a lot of fun, I don’t think the changes are a big deal, and even changing my builds to reflect what next patch would look like, tankblades are still totally viable.

If you need an aoe root, I recommend blockade of frost. Time stop and volcanic rune are also viable cc, but maybe not quite what you’re looking for.

Well atm BleedBlades stacking vigor+darkCloak+Rally+rally burst burstheal is kinda OP. I understand that you want something more in your nightblade tank but, do not forget your tank has mirage too I LOVED IT as nb tank.

No, blockade of frost is not what im looking for since a proper tank should have a lightning staff backbar i guess. Talons or Encase is what im looking for, the could change that hilarious Debilitate that i think probably nobody is using to an AoE root with a very low dmg, that would be an amazing improvement to NB tanks i guess.

Again, I’ve no complaints about nb tanks currently, and similarly have no opinion on whether health based heals should take either crit stat into consideration. Just here to clear up misconceptions.

Although for the record, major evasion changing from a passive dodge chance to passive aoe reduction makes mirage perhaps less appealing to tanks. Im still undecided whether I’ll run it now or not.

Also, with changes to offbalance, it’s less critical to run lightning backbar now. Stam dps and heavy attack builds are mostly the only ones to benefit much from it, so it’s a fair consideration to use other elements nowadays. Especially if you struggle to keep adds stacked, maintaining a tighter grouping of targets likely will net you more dps than a minute chance to proc concussion and periodic offbalance uptime, even if playing with stam dps and heavy attack builds.

Edit: sorry, though, this is starting to get mostly off topic from dark cloak, so I’ll discontinue other discussions.

Indeed your right about mirage but hey, a tank will hurt more from AoE dmg since it can block ST dmg and not AoE right? Maybe it worth to be slotted still in some occasions.. But as it seems Dark cloak heal is not an emergency button as GDB is, its more like a skill you need to have a good uptime with to get it full functional and most benefit of it.


Yeah we are off topic but still about NB tank that its the main topic of this post i guess, i feel an AoE root change on the useless skill Debilitate is needed and i also feel while dark cloak scaling with wep dmg+crit will be amazing in PvE will destroy PvP balance because it will line up EVEN more perfectly that it does now with vigor+rally+rally burst heal .

ccfeeling

Dc is better than gdb?
Are u guys serious?

olsborg

My biggest issue with dark cloak, rly, is the animation, I want something other then a crouch and something that sounds like hiding.

Rex-Umbra

Its so much worse then Coagulating blood. Not worth using.

Anethum

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

It only takes spellcritical into account, not weaponcritical.

Also most of us would like a new animation on this morph. No more crouch when you cast it pls and possibly a new sound to something less rogueish. Thx

You want cloak heal to be stamina ?

Are you serious?
You think of nightblades stacking 2x insane HoT's like vigor+Dark stamina cloak heal + rally + rally burst heal will be "balanced?


But ofc forum nb's consider op to be balance

he didn't said stamina heal. he asked for counting crit from your number of bigger crit stat (stam crit for stamina users, mag crit for mana users) instead of only magicka.