Why do PVP-nerfs always affect PVE? Why is heavy armor the desired meta in PVP?

Luthivar

After a few months of absence I came back to the forum to inform myself about Murkmire and all I have to say that this is the first dlc I wished we all could just pass and move along like before.

The nerfs to shields and speed-buffs strongly hit PVE-gameplay although they were (badly, imo) designed for PVP!

Shields: First a casting time. You already reverted it, fine, keep that in mind for future nerfs. Nobody wants casting times, they make gameplay feel slower. Now you cut the shield strength in half, which makes the use of shields in PvE content absolutely pointless, as it's a waste of magicka and a skill slot. For PVP even worse: Resistance now adds to the shield strength. Almost everybody already runs a heavy armour build in PVP, why do you have to support them even more? I remember a year or two ago when you decided to do sth about all those heavy armour wearers in PVP. Keep this direction up! Most people don't want eternal duels in Cyrodiil and bgs.
People already mentioned that the shields themselves aren't the problem, but shield stacking is. Make stronger shields overwrite weaker ones and revert all the other changes back to status quo. Problem solved, everyone is happy.

Second address: Nerf of speed buffs. Speed currently is a prob in PVP; you are simply forced to wear swift jewelery. So touch the trait, but leave buffs untouched, because you are hitting PVE players that try to kite or evade dangerous situations in boss fights most! In PVE you don't use swift jewelry, steed and whatever you got, the limited-time-buffs are the only way you have! Leave the greater buffs untouched, adjust the rest. And finally penalise heavy armour wearers in fights, maybe lowering their cap to 25 percent or cut their overall movement speed in half. Either movement or resitance (and gap-closers)!

Two more points: The bear nerf needs sth to even out the suffered nerf to overall dps from wardens. Maybe a weapon respective spell dmg buff while active or upon using the ultimate. Or buff the ultimate. As of now, I fear the extinction of fluffy teddies and streams of tears from their cuddlers. Pet-AI is stupid enough, so warden dmg shouldn't rely on it, thats a point you've got there, though.
Heal morph of twisting path: I like the dmg, heal and speed buff, what I don't like is the new function of lesser/greater evasion. I can easily evade AOE trough some movement and even if you take 1-2 ticks, they are no 1-shotters. Nobody complained about this morph, only little people are even using it (due to some guides), so pls don't touch it. Place the new evasion buff somewhere else, where it doesn't harm anybody. I'd even do without it

Thanks for your attention!

templesus

The shield nerfs were not intended solely for PvP. Zenimax clearly stated they were nerfing shields because they felt that they made healers obsolete in PvE content. You should really do some research before posting asinine claims like that.

VaranisArano

For one, the Devs made it clear that the shield nerfs were for PVE and PVP.

Second, most major nerfs are intended for both PVP and PVE. Remember the Great Sustain Nerf of Morrowind? That was for PVP - too many tanky players with high damage and great sustain. It was also for PVE - great sustain makes for high DPS and PVE players were ripping through ZOS' hardest content and calling it easy peasy lemon squeezy.

Third, heavy armor is desirable in PVP because its possible to do decent damage with the resistances of heavy armor. ZOS has been trying to (mostly unsuccessfully) nerf this since Morrowind, so don't hold your breath for that to change.

Fourth, most people think the major expedition nerfs was overkill. But since Swift stacking with other stuff was messing up targeting, it had to get adjusted. Sometimes the devs adjust more than we think is necessary.

Luthivar

Well, that's the point. They "felt". Healers in PVE dungeons aren't obsolete, you just can play without them. They still can buff grp dmg. There are some dungeons where tanks are obsolete, but that's due to the existence of bosses you can't tank.

Btw addressing shields doesn't solve the problem, if there is any. 1 of the dds might slot a healing staff on back bar, that's pretty much it.

2nd: Casual players never run vet dungeons without a healer, that's only for people who run one dungeon after another. And: In vMA I can't be followed by a healer, so I give a...whatever on "feelings".

OtarTheMad

VaranisArano wrote: »

For one, the Devs made it clear that the shield nerfs were for PVE and PVP.

Second, most major nerfs are intended for both PVP and PVE. Remember the Great Sustain Nerf of Morrowind? That was for PVP - too many tanky players with high damage and great sustain. It was also for PVE - great sustain makes for high DPS and PVE players were ripping through ZOS' hardest content and calling it easy peasy lemon squeezy.

Third, heavy armor is desirable in PVP because its possible to do decent damage with the resistances of heavy armor. ZOS has been trying to (mostly unsuccessfully) nerf this since Morrowind, so don't hold your breath for that to change.

Fourth, most people think the major expedition nerfs was overkill. But since Swift stacking with other stuff was messing up targeting, it had to get adjusted. Sometimes the devs adjust more than we think is necessary.

Basically this.

I never really relied on speed pots or major/minor expedition or Swift to get around in either PvE or PvP so I wasn't impacted but targeting those who did was a pain sometimes. They might have gone overboard.

IlCanis_LupuslI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAk6cBDo2xk

The reason people use heavy in pvp....
Dbos=undodgable
Shalk =undodgable
U have 2 be brave or stupid to use medium in this meta

Pastas

Luthivar wrote: »

After a few months of absence I came back to the forum to inform myself about Murkmire and all I have to say that this is the first dlc I wished we all could just pass and move along like before.

The nerfs to shields and speed-buffs strongly hit PVE-gameplay although they were (badly, imo) designed for PVP!

Shields: First a casting time. You already reverted it, fine, keep that in mind for future nerfs. Nobody wants casting times, they make gameplay feel slower. Now you cut the shield strength in half, which makes the use of shields in PvE content absolutely pointless, as it's a waste of magicka and a skill slot. For PVP even worse: Resistance now adds to the shield strength. Almost everybody already runs a heavy armour build in PVP, why do you have to support them even more? I remember a year or two ago when you decided to do sth about all those heavy armour wearers in PVP. Keep this direction up! Most people don't want eternal duels in Cyrodiil and bgs.
People already mentioned that the shields themselves aren't the problem, but shield stacking is. Make stronger shields overwrite weaker ones and revert all the other changes back to status quo. Problem solved, everyone is happy.

Second address: Nerf of speed buffs. Speed currently is a prob in PVP; you are simply forced to wear swift jewelery. So touch the trait, but leave buffs untouched, because you are hitting PVE players that try to kite or evade dangerous situations in boss fights most! In PVE you don't use swift jewelry, steed and whatever you got, the limited-time-buffs are the only way you have! Leave the greater buffs untouched, adjust the rest. And finally penalise heavy armour wearers in fights, maybe lowering their cap to 25 percent or cut their overall movement speed in half. Either movement or resitance (and gap-closers)!

Two more points: The bear nerf needs sth to even out the suffered nerf to overall dps from wardens. Maybe a weapon respective spell dmg buff while active or upon using the ultimate. Or buff the ultimate. As of now, I fear the extinction of fluffy teddies and streams of tears from their cuddlers. Pet-AI is stupid enough, so warden dmg shouldn't rely on it, thats a point you've got there, though.
Heal morph of twisting path: I like the dmg, heal and speed buff, what I don't like is the new function of lesser/greater evasion. I can easily evade AOE trough some movement and even if you take 1-2 ticks, they are no 1-shotters. Nobody complained about this morph, only little people are even using it (due to some guides), so pls don't touch it. Place the new evasion buff somewhere else, where it doesn't harm anybody. I'd even do without it

Thanks for your attention!

Shields nerfs wans't a PvP only thing. ZOS said weeks ago that they were planning changes to shields in order to make healer role more relevant in PvE content.

Speed nefs are purely a PvP thing, I concede that.

No one have complained about warden bear in PvP, wardens are using other ultimates like Dawnbreaker/Permafrost and Trees, so it's a PvE thing.

You don't even know what the did to Refreshig Path, it no longer deals damage and doesn't gives you major evasion buff, it grants now major expedition for allies in the path. This change, and other nerfs to magblade, were done because top PvE guilds were running 7 magblades for trials and there was a lot of complaints about dps diversity. So again this is a PvE change.

You can keep blaming PvP for everithing that is nerfed but it's not true.

Strider__Roshin

I love how PvE players love to blame PvP for PvE nerfs.

Damage shields were nerfed hard primarily because of how much they over performed in PvE. The only change done to shields that were PvP focused was to have them critable which has no influence on PvE.

Swift change? Yup that was a PvP change, but you complaining about how it affects PvE really tarnishes your credibility as a serious PvEer.

The Warden bear nerf? This was done in order to reduce the focus on the bear as the focus point of your PvE DPS. Your overall DPS was increased since now each animal companion increases your damage by 3% rather than 2%. You think the Bear was nerfed because of PvP? Do you even PvP? The Bear is almost exclusively used in PvE.


This is a typical case of PvEers using PvPers as a scape goat.

IZZEFlameLash

Shield nerf is PvE thing. Thank your stam dps friends for that. They clearly said they wanted to make healers 'relevant' without actually making them relevant by changing mechanics.

lucky_dutch

I sort of agree with your presupposition but not all your actual points.

Sheilds now are fine for PvE. 40% of your HP is enough to protect you from certain mechanics but not the ones that are supposed to be 1-shots. That’s as it should be.

I can kinda see what you’re saying regarding speed but all it requires is that you build access to expedition into your builds or utilise better positioning.

I actually don’t like the changes though so I don’t know why I’m defending them 🤷‍♂️

Maryal

Daus wrote: »

I love how PvE players love to blame PvP for PvE nerfs.

Swift change? Yup that was a PvP change, but you complaining about how it affects PvE really tarnishes your credibility as a serious PvEer.

Speed buffs definitely help pve'ers. A lot of newer group dungeon content includes mobile bosses + mobile ads ... you have to constantly be on the move - sprinting and dodge rolling to avoid an ever changing pattern of multiple ground AOEs. And, the more difficult pve content is getting just about as laggy as primetime pvp (making speed buffs more important). Many 'serious pve'ers' have included Vicious Serpent as one of their pve 'go to' armor sets (30% speed buff for 20 seconds upon killing an enemy)... unfortunately the set is getting the nerf hammer when Merk goes live.

Bottom line: Speed boosts, including swift, help maintain mobility. Complaining about swift nerfs doesn't tarnish anyone's credibility as a 'serious pve'er', in fact, more pve'ers should speak up since this effects everybody. It makes no sense to belittle pve'ers for speaking up on the forums ... we should be encouraging them to speak up. Most of them simply want their voice to be heard, they are not interested in engaging in forum pvp.

ezio45

hahahhahahah, shields didnt get nerfed by half.

its over 80%

JackDaniell

Heavy vs light and medium gives you the best stats possible if you had two players just spamming skills on eachother. You have the best possibe combination of defensive and offensive stats.

This means in heavy you can effectivley make more mistakes and get away with it then in medium or light.

So in short heavy is the easiest armor weight to run for the biggest reward = meta.

For top tier world solo pvp i think medium definatly overshines heavy, but only at higher levels as a less experianced player wont avoid what they need to properly, thierfore not utilizing the advantages they get from mediums speed damage and regen effectivley.

ll_Rev

Luthivar wrote: »

After a few months of absence I came back to the forum to inform myself about Murkmire and all I have to say that this is the first dlc I wished we all could just pass and move along like before.

The nerfs to shields and speed-buffs strongly hit PVE-gameplay although they were (badly, imo) designed for PVP!

Shields: First a casting time. You already reverted it, fine, keep that in mind for future nerfs. Nobody wants casting times, they make gameplay feel slower. Now you cut the shield strength in half, which makes the use of shields in PvE content absolutely pointless, as it's a waste of magicka and a skill slot. For PVP even worse: Resistance now adds to the shield strength. Almost everybody already runs a heavy armour build in PVP, why do you have to support them even more? I remember a year or two ago when you decided to do sth about all those heavy armour wearers in PVP. Keep this direction up! Most people don't want eternal duels in Cyrodiil and bgs.
People already mentioned that the shields themselves aren't the problem, but shield stacking is. Make stronger shields overwrite weaker ones and revert all the other changes back to status quo. Problem solved, everyone is happy.

Second address: Nerf of speed buffs. Speed currently is a prob in PVP; you are simply forced to wear swift jewelery. So touch the trait, but leave buffs untouched, because you are hitting PVE players that try to kite or evade dangerous situations in boss fights most! In PVE you don't use swift jewelry, steed and whatever you got, the limited-time-buffs are the only way you have! Leave the greater buffs untouched, adjust the rest. And finally penalise heavy armour wearers in fights, maybe lowering their cap to 25 percent or cut their overall movement speed in half. Either movement or resitance (and gap-closers)!

Two more points: The bear nerf needs sth to even out the suffered nerf to overall dps from wardens. Maybe a weapon respective spell dmg buff while active or upon using the ultimate. Or buff the ultimate. As of now, I fear the extinction of fluffy teddies and streams of tears from their cuddlers. Pet-AI is stupid enough, so warden dmg shouldn't rely on it, thats a point you've got there, though.
Heal morph of twisting path: I like the dmg, heal and speed buff, what I don't like is the new function of lesser/greater evasion. I can easily evade AOE trough some movement and even if you take 1-2 ticks, they are no 1-shotters. Nobody complained about this morph, only little people are even using it (due to some guides), so pls don't touch it. Place the new evasion buff somewhere else, where it doesn't harm anybody. I'd even do without it

Thanks for your attention!

cast time was do to the insignificane that healers felt in PvE content as you can just stack shields through dmg, which means you don't need healing. The change was because of PvE not PvP

ll_Rev

shield nerfs were not a direct cause from PvP

usmguy1234

Luthivar wrote: »

After a few months of absence I came back to the forum to inform myself about Murkmire and all I have to say that this is the first dlc I wished we all could just pass and move along like before.

The nerfs to shields and speed-buffs strongly hit PVE-gameplay although they were (badly, imo) designed for PVP!

Shields: First a casting time. You already reverted it, fine, keep that in mind for future nerfs. Nobody wants casting times, they make gameplay feel slower. Now you cut the shield strength in half, which makes the use of shields in PvE content absolutely pointless, as it's a waste of magicka and a skill slot. For PVP even worse: Resistance now adds to the shield strength. Almost everybody already runs a heavy armour build in PVP, why do you have to support them even more? I remember a year or two ago when you decided to do sth about all those heavy armour wearers in PVP. Keep this direction up! Most people don't want eternal duels in Cyrodiil and bgs.
People already mentioned that the shields themselves aren't the problem, but shield stacking is. Make stronger shields overwrite weaker ones and revert all the other changes back to status quo. Problem solved, everyone is happy.

Second address: Nerf of speed buffs. Speed currently is a prob in PVP; you are simply forced to wear swift jewelery. So touch the trait, but leave buffs untouched, because you are hitting PVE players that try to kite or evade dangerous situations in boss fights most! In PVE you don't use swift jewelry, steed and whatever you got, the limited-time-buffs are the only way you have! Leave the greater buffs untouched, adjust the rest. And finally penalise heavy armour wearers in fights, maybe lowering their cap to 25 percent or cut their overall movement speed in half. Either movement or resitance (and gap-closers)!

Two more points: The bear nerf needs sth to even out the suffered nerf to overall dps from wardens. Maybe a weapon respective spell dmg buff while active or upon using the ultimate. Or buff the ultimate. As of now, I fear the extinction of fluffy teddies and streams of tears from their cuddlers. Pet-AI is stupid enough, so warden dmg shouldn't rely on it, thats a point you've got there, though.
Heal morph of twisting path: I like the dmg, heal and speed buff, what I don't like is the new function of lesser/greater evasion. I can easily evade AOE trough some movement and even if you take 1-2 ticks, they are no 1-shotters. Nobody complained about this morph, only little people are even using it (due to some guides), so pls don't touch it. Place the new evasion buff somewhere else, where it doesn't harm anybody. I'd even do without it

Thanks for your attention!

It's called balancing the two seperately or at least balance the game around pvp and scale the pve elements to that. As one of the kind class reps reminded me on discord, this game was originally meant to be pvp centric. One look at the old ads for this game strengthens this point. So before you say all the nerfs are pvp centric just remember that.