On the speed nerfs

cpuScientist

ZOS seriously you've taken the complete opposite stance on speed that this game needs.

All these skills need to have their times INCREASED not decreased. They need to be an alternative to speed pots.

Speed pots needed to either have a mag option added (PREFERABLY) If not the stamina replaced with health.

The snare reduction was a good step change last patch. But now you've made the situation worst.

The biggest issue with speed was the ease of getting to the cap. Which was achieved by Swifty jewelry. And you have adjusted that, LEAVE it there!

Now forward momentum, feels like such a necessary skill so much so that all stamina builds run it OVER their only burst heal option. Why? Because snares are incredibly annoying and suck the fun right out of the combat. So instead of truly taking a hard look at snares you decrease forward momentum. Making it more annoying than less. Many medium builds still run forward over shuffle, just because the 2 seconds IMMUNITY and the cost are so inneficient. It is incredibly unfun to be snared to a crawl not able to react or outplay.

And then after Nerfing the solo or small man, you leave the ZERG untouched. You leave rapids as an over powered option for a Zerg. Make it only castable on 4-6 players and remove the snare immunity or make it snare removal, Because these groups have all the advantage and now you have given them the prize.

And my maybe controversial opinion is remove snares entirely from spammable abilities. Roots can stay on them but snares should in my opinion only be on ground casted abilities like caltrops and the like, even Templars jabs should not have it, give them minor expedition when jabbing or something such.

Take some of the power away from zergs. And do not KILL mobility. This is seriously going to hurt PvP if left as is.

cpuScientist

This is all just really making me not like this game lol. I defend alot of decisions. Maybe not on the forums as much as I could. But these speed nerfs are really going the wrong way.

Zelos

Yep forward momentum in my opinion is fine at 4 or 5 seconds has heavy armor uses it and you shouldnt be able to turbo through like in medium armor. Shuffle needs a increase in duration to snare immunity, speed needs to be accessible for both sides magicka and stamina. However this doesnt really matter as you are lagging to hard to even do anything especially with the sprint bug THAT I WAS ABLE to reproduce accurately in the live public server in 3 or 4 different ways with 100% accuracy.

Crixus8000

I pretty much agree with everything you said. Solo play is already hard enough but they keep nerfing it. As I have said countless times, the speed is needed for solo play, it's just that simple. It's the only way to survive. I would much rather see some buffs to things that are lacking to even things out, not just nerf everything untill the solo players are gone and it's just zergs everywhere.

DCanadianBacon

While I'm all for adjusting my builds because of nerfs and patches, I must say that I couldn't agree more with what you have said.

I'm already expecting a heavy nerf to speed pots next patch, so I'm starting to get used to running Quick Cloak and Forward Momentum with Crit Surge on my back bar to get ready for next patch on my Stam Sorc (I was running Shuffle and Rally without Crit Surge). I was only running one Swift on my builds last patch, so the nerf to Swift is perfectly fine. But these blanket nerfs to all forms of speed is way too much.

And for the love of Mundus, they need to put a flipping cap on Rapid Maneuvers. It shouldn't affect more than 4-6 people in groups (at least the Major Expedition part, Major Gallop should be left untouched).

Nyladreas

cpuScientist wrote: »

ZOS seriously you've taken the complete opposite stance on speed that this game needs.

All these skills need to have their times INCREASED not decreased. They need to be an alternative to speed pots.

Speed pots needed to either have a mag option added (PREFERABLY) If not the stamina replaced with health.

The snare reduction was a good step change last patch. But now you've made the situation worst.

The biggest issue with speed was the ease of getting to the cap. Which was achieved by Swifty jewelry. And you have adjusted that, LEAVE it there!

Now forward momentum, feels like such a necessary skill so much so that all stamina builds run it OVER their only burst heal option. Why? Because snares are incredibly annoying and suck the fun right out of the combat. So instead of truly taking a hard look at snares you decrease forward momentum. Making it more annoying than less. Many medium builds still run forward over shuffle, just because the 2 seconds IMMUNITY and the cost are so inneficient. It is incredibly unfun to be snared to a crawl not able to react or outplay.

And then after Nerfing the solo or small man, you leave the ZERG untouched. You leave rapids as an over powered option for a Zerg. Make it only castable on 4-6 players and remove the snare immunity or make it snare removal, Because these groups have all the advantage and now you have given them the prize.

And my maybe controversial opinion is remove snares entirely from spammable abilities. Roots can stay on them but snares should in my opinion only be on ground casted abilities like caltrops and the like, even Templars jabs should not have it, give them minor expedition when jabbing or something such.

Take some of the power away from zergs. And do not KILL mobility. This is seriously going to hurt PvP if left as is.

I mean I've been running without swift this entire time and I'm doing just fine.

No swift pots either...

citats

cpuScientist wrote: »

All these skills need to have their times INCREASED not decreased. They need to be an alternative to speed pots.
Speed pots needed to either have a mag option added (PREFERABLY) If not the stamina replaced with health.

I made a similar suggestion in this thread: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/433209/channeled-acceleration-movement-speed, given some fixes, the channeled acceleration skill in the psijic order skill line could be used as a consistent (but expensive) magicka or stamina speed buff depending on morph. Zos could adjust the duration/cost/and remove it's self-snare to remain balanced with this new pvp snail meta. It would give all classes the chance to have an expensive to sustain skill that can help outrun a zerg if they are utilizing all their resources to retreat to los.

Now forward momentum, feels like such a necessary skill so much so that all stamina builds run it OVER their only burst heal option.

This is very true, a burst heal is a huge boost in survivability, and some classes already have access to them without rally.

Snare immunity should not be mandatory, it should slightly complement builds which already have a class burst heal, but not heavily punish builds for not having a burst heal.
Reducing the duration of the snare immunity won't change the fact that some classes will be able to escape situations due to access to both burst heals and movement, whereas others will have to choose between a non-spammable burst heal, or the ability to los.

I think the best solution would be to greatly reduce the impact of snares on all players. For example there could be a minor snare which reduces movement speed by 10% for 2 seconds. And a major snare which reduces movement speed by 50% for 0.3 seconds (which could be applied only in melee range, to help in landing your complete combo). Both of these snares would be useful offensively but would not make it too difficult for recipients to survive without the use of forward momentum.

Many medium builds still run forward over shuffle, just because the 2 seconds IMMUNITY and the cost are so inneficient.

Shuffle is zos's opportunity to make medium armor unique. The snare immunity of 2 seconds is a joke and imo they should rework the ability from scratch to offer medium some sort of angle to fight heavy armor targets.

And then after Nerfing the solo or small man, you leave the ZERG untouched. You leave rapids as an over powered option for a Zerg. Make it only castable on 4-6 players and remove the snare immunity or make it snare removal, Because these groups have all the advantage and now you have given them the prize.

There is no reason for rapids to even have major expedition. It is broken to keep this 30 second major expedition buff only for zergs given the recent changes. Major gallop is sufficient utility for rapid maneuver.

Sinolai

I agree that the speed nerfs were over the top. Nobody likes to play as a snail and mobility is one key element of combat (and is also required for smooth pve experience such as questing, node gathering, dungeon clearing, ect). But I think snares are as important as speed. It is excatly what is needed to play against the fast hit-and-run people. We have snare immunity for quick hit-and-run tactics but if you fail to execute your move in time you risk of getting snared and killed.

GrigorijMalahevich

To make swift more desirable now - ZoS needs to nerf speed pots to not provide 100% uptime on major exp, make it 25-30 sec or smth and see how good swift suddenly becomes

Bitmun

Before the Swift trait announcement no one was complaining about mobility - so nerf to Expedition is an awful idea. A speed buff is essential in pvp, especially in solo. It makes the dynamic of eso combat system. Moreover, it's a point of stam classes - to have a high mobility, since they're mostly lacking burst heal. However, it would be great, if magicka had a reliable tool of speed buff as well, since snares are ridiciolus. 100% uptime of Major Expedition is needed, and IT IS NOT OP. The solution is make it non-stackable with Swift or just decrease the PERCENTAGE of ME buff to 20-25% to make Swift useful, but not overperforming.

I want my 2H mageblade back. :c Don't destroy FM.

jcm2606

Shuffle doesn't just need an increase to duration, it also needs a decrease to its cost, unless Zenimax feels like pushing the duration of Shuffle up to what Forward Momentum currently offers.

When you look at the stamina cost in relation to the duration of snare immunity, Forward Momentum currently wins by a landslide. With a 5/1/1 build setup, and the 2H cost reduction passive, Forward Momentum as it currently is on live costs about 223 stamina for each second within the 8 second immunity window. With the Murkmire changes, this increases to about 446 stamina for each second within the 4 second immunity window. Compared to Shuffle, which costs about 1555 stamina for each second within the 2.5 second immunity window.

Forward Momentum on live, with a 5/1/1 medium build with the 2H cost reduction passive, is just under 7 times more cost effective than Shuffle, looking at just the snare immunity. On PTS, it is just under 3.5 times more cost effective than Shuffle. To make them equal in cost effectiveness, taking the PTS duration into account, you'd need to reduce Forward Momentum's snare immunity to about 1.15 seconds, or increase Shuffle's snare immunity to about 8.7 seconds.

Given the fact that Zenimax nerfed Forward Momentum, I don't think they'd want to increase Shuffle's snare immunity to 8.7 seconds. The most realistic option is to increase the duration a bit, while reducing the cost a bit. If we assume they increase the duration from 2.5 seconds to 6 seconds, then they'll need to reduce the cost to about 2675 stamina for Shuffle to be as cost effective as Forward Momentum.

Now, yes, this doesn't take into account the other effects of both skills, so I don't expect nor suggest Zenimax follows my math to a tee. But, it shows that increasing the duration alone isn't an option. Likewise, reducing the cost alone isn't an option, either, as you'd need to reduce it to about 1115 stamina, which, as you can see, is way too low. Finding a balance between both, taking other effects into account, is the solution.

HackTheMinotaur

jcm2606 wrote: »

Shuffle doesn't just need an increase to duration, it also needs a decrease to its cost, unless Zenimax feels like pushing the duration of Shuffle up to what Forward Momentum currently offers.

When you look at the stamina cost in relation to the duration of snare immunity, Forward Momentum currently wins by a landslide. With a 5/1/1 build setup, and the 2H cost reduction passive, Forward Momentum as it currently is on live costs about 223 stamina for each second within the 8 second immunity window. With the Murkmire changes, this increases to about 446 stamina for each second within the 4 second immunity window. Compared to Shuffle, which costs about 1555 stamina for each second within the 2.5 second immunity window.

Forward Momentum on live, with a 5/1/1 medium build with the 2H cost reduction passive, is just under 7 times more cost effective than Shuffle, looking at just the snare immunity. On PTS, it is just under 3.5 times more cost effective than Shuffle. To make them equal in cost effectiveness, taking the PTS duration into account, you'd need to reduce Forward Momentum's snare immunity to about 1.15 seconds, or increase Shuffle's snare immunity to about 8.7 seconds.

Given the fact that Zenimax nerfed Forward Momentum, I don't think they'd want to increase Shuffle's snare immunity to 8.7 seconds. The most realistic option is to increase the duration a bit, while reducing the cost a bit. If we assume they increase the duration from 2.5 seconds to 6 seconds, then they'll need to reduce the cost to about 2675 stamina for Shuffle to be as cost effective as Forward Momentum.

Now, yes, this doesn't take into account the other effects of both skills, so I don't expect nor suggest Zenimax follows my math to a tee. But, it shows that increasing the duration alone isn't an option. Likewise, reducing the cost alone isn't an option, either, as you'd need to reduce it to about 1115 stamina, which, as you can see, is way too low. Finding a balance between both, taking other effects into account, is the solution.

This is an excellent breakdown of why shuffle is not used.

Gilvoth

the speed changes, and swift changes, are completely uncalled for and totally unnecessary.

cpuScientist

I have always been for either removing all snares except ground casted ones. Or having a major minor system. Where spammable snares are capped at 15% that's your vamp bane and rending where ground snares are capped at 50-60%

Ground snares are good. They do nothing however to the Zerg which they should be mainly used against.

I mean c'mon the game is soooooo horrid yo play without snare immunity because snares are trash.

kojou

I am totally ok with removing snares altogether from the game except from specific ground skills. I've always hated that mechanic.

Rapid maneuvers is fine as it is though. A nerf to it means more horse simulator which would not be fun.

I am with you on all other points though.