Wild Impulse [Feedback]

dpencil1 · October 2018

Testing on PTS 10/4/18
Altmer Sorcerer wearing 5 Necro/5 Spinner (purple), 50k magicka, using lightning Wild Impulse staff
Crit chance = 40% Crit Multiplier = 67%
Fighting world boss

Wild Impulse damage does have a chance to proc status effects, but DOES NOT CRIT (bug?)

[0.00] Shock Ring - 9028
[1.98] Wild Impulse (Fire) - 4666
[5.03] Wild Impulse (Lightning) - 4832
[7.97] Wild Impulse (Ice) - 4666

Total non-crit damage = 23,192
DPS = 2899 (4 ticks over 8 seconds)

[0.00] CRIT Shock Ring - 15077
[1.98] Wild Impulse (Fire) - 4666
[5.03] Wild Impulse (Lightning) - 4832
[7.97] Wild Impulse (Ice) - 4666

Total CRIT damage = 29,241
DPS = 3655

Hypothetically, if Wild Impulse damage could CRIT and all of them did...
[0.00] CRIT Shock Ring - 15077
[1.98] CRIT Wild Impulse (Fire) - 7792
[5.03] CRIT Wild Impulse (Lightning) - 8069
[7.97] CRIT Wild Impulse (Ice) - 7792

Total Hypothetical CRIT damage = 38730
DPS = 4841

For comparison, on the same setup, this is the DPS for Liquid Lightning and Blockade of Storms:

Liquid Lightning
3581 (non-crit), 5980 (CRIT)
DPS range = 3581 - 5980 (10 ticks over 10 seconds)

Blockade of Storms
2933 (non-crit), 4898 (CRIT)
DPS range = 2933 - 4898 (8 ticks over 8 seconds)

Considering we have a Crit Chance of 40%, average DPS for each of these would be:
Liquid Lightning = 4551
Blockade of Storms = 3719
Wild Impulse (no crits on dot) = 3201
Wild Impulse (crits possible on dot) = 3676

So, if Wild Impulse can be fixed to crit on the dot, it will be comparable to Blockade. If the dot remains un-crittable, it will underperform Blockade by about 500 dps on a similar build. Still, having another dot available in the magicka kit is a welcome addition, and I think this weapon bonus is a fantastic idea. If someone has space on their bar and in their rotation to include Wild Impulse, it's definitely an attractive option.

@ZOS_GinaBruno Please pass this on to the itemization team. It would be great if we could get a response on whether the Wild Impulse dot is intended to be crittable. I believe that it should, as the data above shows that allowing this would simply put it more in line with Blockade.

Silver_Strider · October 2018

Have you tried using Mechanical Acuity to test if crit was possible with Wild Impulse?

While I doubt RNG hates you so much that you wouldn't get any crits with a 40% crit chance over extended testing, a 100% crit chance would eliminate any possible doubt.

LiquidPony · October 2018

I agree that another DoT in the magicka toolkit is nice ... but who's gonna use it?

Maelstrom backbar will still be universally preferred and in order to run the Craprose Destro on the front bar you'd have to sacrifice a monster set or a second 5-piece. Maybe it'll work in some kits akin to the Asylum Destro, but the additional DPS isn't great and it'd be more for the status effects.

Only way I see it being viable is on a support role, that is your tank or healer might run it as their backbar lightning staff and drop Blockade/Elemental Ring ... and it seems like Impulse would be used more for the status effect procs than for the actual DPS in that case.

idk · October 2018

Seems Zos has it placed into the proc category which procs cannot crit.

It is a poor design regardless.

Alcast pointed out in his video that this skill is a spammabale in the way it was designed. However, the design of this added effect means it cannot be spammed. If it does the effect keeps being reapplied and never goes off until the player stops spamming it.

While Zos is trying to make an underused skill more attractive they forget how that skill would be used as it is designed,

jaws343 · October 2018

idk wrote: »

Seems Zos has it placed into the proc category which procs cannot crit.

It is a poor design regardless.

Alcast pointed out in his video that this skill is a spammabale in the way it was designed. However, the design of this added effect means it cannot be spammed. If it does the effect keeps being reapplied and never goes off until the player stops spamming it.

While Zos is trying to make an underused skill more attractive they forget how that skill would be used as it is designed,

I think the ranged version is a spammable. But Pulsar is definitely a single use debuff skill. And I think that the staff is going to be strong in PVP, especially with the shield changes.

First of all, Pulsar hits targets with minor mangle, reducing health by 10%. That health reduction should also reduce the maximum size of the harness and hardened shields. So a 25K health target, with a 10K max shield, will now have 22.5K health and a 9K max shield, which is a pretty significant debuff. Add in the dot damage from the staff effect and Pulsar becomes very strong.

I plan on running this on my bomber with willpower jewelry, VD, and balorgh. Hit Pulsar first for the debuff and to apply the dot, soul tether, then proxy goes off, and then sap essence. The minor mangle is going to reduce the health of everyone immediately around you, making them easier to kill, the dot is going to make it harder for them to heal back up plus it should have a chance to apply status effects.

Another thing to keep in mind, from a spammable point of view, is this places the dot on every target you hit so you really don't need to use it as a spammable anymore, and with the lowered cost, its a pretty cheap aoe dot that works regardless of where enemies move once it is applied. And I imagine running a charged staff is going to increase the chance that every single target you hit is hit with either burning, concussed, or chilled.

Really excited for this staff.

jaws343 · October 2018

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Have you tried using Mechanical Acuity to test if crit was possible with Wild Impulse?

While I doubt RNG hates you so much that you wouldn't get any crits with a 40% crit chance over extended testing, a 100% crit chance would eliminate any possible doubt.

It makes sense that it doesn't crit because set procs do not crit.

dpencil1 · October 2018

jaws343 wrote: »

It makes sense that it doesn't crit because set procs do not crit.

It's not a proc set. It's an ability altering set. It should be compared to the other ability altering weapon sets. Are there any other weapons in that category that prevent a crit from occuring? At least as far as the other destro staves are concerned, there are none.

susmitds · October 2018

dpencil1 wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

It makes sense that it doesn't crit because set procs do not crit.

It's not a proc set. It's an ability altering set. It should be compared to the other ability altering weapon sets. Are there any other weapons in that category that prevent a crit from occuring? At least as far as the other destro staves are concerned, there are none.

The Blackrose Bow DoT also does not crit.

BigBadVolk · October 2018

jaws343 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Seems Zos has it placed into the proc category which procs cannot crit.

It is a poor design regardless.

Alcast pointed out in his video that this skill is a spammabale in the way it was designed. However, the design of this added effect means it cannot be spammed. If it does the effect keeps being reapplied and never goes off until the player stops spamming it.

While Zos is trying to make an underused skill more attractive they forget how that skill would be used as it is designed,

I think the ranged version is a spammable. But Pulsar is definitely a single use debuff skill. And I think that the staff is going to be strong in PVP, especially with the shield changes.

First of all, Pulsar hits targets with minor mangle, reducing health by 10%. That health reduction should also reduce the maximum size of the harness and hardened shields. So a 25K health target, with a 10K max shield, will now have 22.5K health and a 9K max shield, which is a pretty significant debuff. Add in the dot damage from the staff effect and Pulsar becomes very strong.

I plan on running this on my bomber with willpower jewelry, VD, and balorgh. Hit Pulsar first for the debuff and to apply the dot, soul tether, then proxy goes off, and then sap essence. The minor mangle is going to reduce the health of everyone immediately around you, making them easier to kill, the dot is going to make it harder for them to heal back up plus it should have a chance to apply status effects.

Another thing to keep in mind, from a spammable point of view, is this places the dot on every target you hit so you really don't need to use it as a spammable anymore, and with the lowered cost, its a pretty cheap aoe dot that works regardless of where enemies move once it is applied. And I imagine running a charged staff is going to increase the chance that every single target you hit is hit with either burning, concussed, or chilled.

Really excited for this staff.

tbh sap isnt really necessery just run in pulsar, tether and bomb kills most of them

dpencil1 · October 2018

@Silver_Strider I checked it with Mechanical Acuity as well. Still no crits.

jaws343 · October 2018

dpencil1 wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

It makes sense that it doesn't crit because set procs do not crit.

It's not a proc set. It's an ability altering set. It should be compared to the other ability altering weapon sets. Are there any other weapons in that category that prevent a crit from occuring? At least as far as the other destro staves are concerned, there are none.

Sure, let's look at the other ability altering destro sets:

Maelstrom:
"Your light and heavy attacks deal an additional 1341 to enemies in your Wall of Elements."
This technically augments your light and heavy attacks, not Wall of Elements. And it isn't adding a proc.

Asylum:
" Every third cast of Force Shock will always apply the Burning, Concussion, and Chilled status effects. The Force Shock casts must be made within 10 seconds of each other for this effect to occur."

The only alteration here is the always apply the status effects. It does not provide a damage proc. So, the status effects can crit. Just like the status effects applied from the blackrose set if they proc.

Wild Impulse is much more of a proc set than the other weapon sets. This is adding an extra damage proc when a specific ability is used. It isn't increasing the damage of the ability. Kind of reminds me of Sheer venom, but singled to a specific skill use.

PathwayM · October 2018

dpencil1 wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

It makes sense that it doesn't crit because set procs do not crit.

It's not a proc set. It's an ability altering set. It should be compared to the other ability altering weapon sets. Are there any other weapons in that category that prevent a crit from occuring? At least as far as the other destro staves are concerned, there are none.

Vma two hander doesn't crit

Masel · October 2018

dpencil1 wrote: »

Testing on PTS 10/4/18
Altmer Sorcerer wearing 5 Necro/5 Spinner (purple), 50k magicka, using lightning Wild Impulse staff
Crit chance = 40% Crit Multiplier = 67%
Fighting world boss

Wild Impulse damage does have a chance to proc status effects, but DOES NOT CRIT (bug?)

[0.00] Shock Ring - 9028
[1.98] Wild Impulse (Fire) - 4666
[5.03] Wild Impulse (Lightning) - 4832
[7.97] Wild Impulse (Ice) - 4666

Total non-crit damage = 23,192
DPS = 2899 (4 ticks over 8 seconds)

[0.00] CRIT Shock Ring - 15077
[1.98] Wild Impulse (Fire) - 4666
[5.03] Wild Impulse (Lightning) - 4832
[7.97] Wild Impulse (Ice) - 4666

Total CRIT damage = 29,241
DPS = 3655

Hypothetically, if Wild Impulse damage could CRIT and all of them did...
[0.00] CRIT Shock Ring - 15077
[1.98] CRIT Wild Impulse (Fire) - 7792
[5.03] CRIT Wild Impulse (Lightning) - 8069
[7.97] CRIT Wild Impulse (Ice) - 7792

Total Hypothetical CRIT damage = 38730
DPS = 4841

For comparison, on the same setup, this is the DPS for Liquid Lightning and Blockade of Storms:

Liquid Lightning
3581 (non-crit), 5980 (CRIT)
DPS range = 3581 - 5980 (10 ticks over 10 seconds)

Blockade of Storms
2933 (non-crit), 4898 (CRIT)
DPS range = 2933 - 4898 (8 ticks over 8 seconds)

Considering we have a Crit Chance of 40%, average DPS for each of these would be:
Liquid Lightning = 4551
Blockade of Storms = 3719
Wild Impulse (no crits on dot) = 3201
Wild Impulse (crits possible on dot) = 3676

So, if Wild Impulse can be fixed to crit on the dot, it will be comparable to Blockade. If the dot remains un-crittable, it will underperform Blockade by about 500 dps on a similar build. Still, having another dot available in the magicka kit is a welcome addition, and I think this weapon bonus is a fantastic idea. If someone has space on their bar and in their rotation to include Wild Impulse, it's definitely an attractive option.

@ZOS_GinaBruno Please pass this on to the itemization team. It would be great if we could get a response on whether the Wild Impulse dot is intended to be crittable. I believe that it should, as the data above shows that allowing this would simply put it more in line with Blockade.

I tested it in a rotation and your dps numbers here are a bit optimistic... For me, when used once in a rotation for the dot, it yielded me 1300 (~430 from each element) dps from the proc and roughly 1k from the pulse, which is fairly weak...

It's not that much weaker than monster sets, but it is weaker. The set has multiple flaws:

It ticks too rarely. It is not interesting from a dot perspective since it doesn't really increase status effect uptimes since it ticks every ~2.5 seconds.

Then, for some reason as you point out, it can not critically strike, even though it does the same thing as the maelstrom 2h. No logic behind that, since they do the same thing. Both put a dot on enemies hit with an ability, yet function differently.

Also, you cannot really use it in aoe as a spammable, since it will not deal damage when you actually spam it. I gave zos this feedback twice now, but I doubt it's gonna change anything...

dpencil1 · October 2018

@Masel92 Yeah, if Combat Metrics reports were working on the PTS, I would have preferred to use that. These calculations were just basic math, adding the raw damage data and dividing it by the duration of the skill, which assumes 100% uptime. I think the actual values are less important than the comparison, though, as all calculations were achieved through the same method.
The ticks are closer to 2 seconds each, which is similar to the Familiar Damage Pulse. Even though there are not many ticks, they each have a higher chance of procing status effects than a tick from a ground-based aoe, since they are stuck to the target. I personally wouldn't use it just for the status effects though, better to use the Asylum staff if that is the priority.
I agree that it would be a more desirable choice if it could crit. Knowing now that there are some weapon set effects that one would expect to crit that don't, we may be stuck.
I think spamming Impulse, at least in bursts is still viable. The initial hit is quite a bit stronger than the individual dot ticks, so if resources are not an issue, spamming it a few times would net you a higher dps burst than letting the dot run. And whenever you move on to other skills the remaining dot would persist. It certainly would be cool if it could stack 3 times instead of being overwritten, but then the initial values would probably end up being tuned down, which would hurt people who just wanted to use it once in their rotation. Perhaps the best solution to make Wild Impulse be more meaningful from a spamming situation would be to have the first Wild Impulse tick happen at the same time as the main Impulse attack, instead of 2 seconds later.

ZOS_Gilliam · October 2018

Greetings! Thank you for the in depth feedback on the item set, posts like these greatly help the team respond to input, internally balance, and make decisions. Just a few notes of clarification however since we've seen some confusion on it in the past.

Since this item set applies a unique effect on targets it affects, it is intentional that it will not Critically Strike. We balance this internally with the numbers we apply to the set, so that it has healthy balance of where it can be used in the game. While we generally tend to focus more on the performance of a set based on where it is sourced from, we still are mindful that you might want to find different ways to use them! We’re always open to suggestions and feedback on improving that aspect of our item set development, because there’s always room for getting better at it.

Another note on the current function of this item set, since our ability augmenting item sets tend to have a variety of development paths we can take.

Sometimes we take the direction of an ability enhancer, which simply adds a new bonus to you merely using an ability. For example, the Mender’s Ward or Spectral Cloak sets both fit into this category.
Other times we take a very different direction where we want players to be able to use an ability they might have not used otherwise, for a new purpose. In this case we have sets such as Piercing Spray (Asylum Bow) or Rampaging Slash (Maelstrom One Hand and Shield).

Currently the Wild Impulse set is designed to fit into the new purpose path where a player can use this ability that would generally be used very frequently, and instead manage it over a timed duration to gain a new benefit.

That being said, we’re always monitoring the performance and perceptions that players vocalize on, so please keep at it!

ezio45 · October 2018

So this is more a problem with just impulse but I seems to not proc frag as often as force/ crushing. With force/crushing proc'ing a frag about every 3 and impulse procing frag about every 4

also impulse just doesnt feel as good as force/crushing in the rotation, partially think this it do to the speed of the skill

gunna test more once my friend gets on later on the proc change, need worm to do larger samples

Masel · October 2018

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Greetings! Thank you for the in depth feedback on the item set, posts like these greatly help the team respond to input, internally balance, and make decisions. Just a few notes of clarification however since we've seen some confusion on it in the past.

Since this item set applies a unique effect on targets it affects, it is intentional that it will not Critically Strike. We balance this internally with the numbers we apply to the set, so that it has healthy balance of where it can be used in the game. While we generally tend to focus more on the performance of a set based on where it is sourced from, we still are mindful that you might want to find different ways to use them! We’re always open to suggestions and feedback on improving that aspect of our item set development, because there’s always room for getting better at it.

Another note on the current function of this item set, since our ability augmenting item sets tend to have a variety of development paths we can take.
Sometimes we take the direction of an ability enhancer, which simply adds a new bonus to you merely using an ability. For example, the Mender’s Ward or Spectral Cloak sets both fit into this category.

Other times we take a very different direction where we want players to be able to use an ability they might have not used otherwise, for a new purpose. In this case we have sets such as Piercing Spray (Asylum Bow) or Rampaging Slash (Maelstrom One Hand and Shield).

Currently the Wild Impulse set is designed to fit into the new purpose path where a player can use this ability that would generally be used very frequently, and instead manage it over a timed duration to gain a new benefit.

That being said, we’re always monitoring the performance and perceptions that players vocalize on, so please keep at it!

Hey Gilliam, cool that you reply to this feedback thread. I get the overall tendency of the set item, and that you want it to be used as another DoT-effect based on Impulse. But I don't really understand why this one is unable to critically strike, and the maelstrom twohander is. If it is just the tooltip phrasing (one putting lingering elemental damage and one saying that the skill does damage over time) then I recommend rephrasing it and making it crittable. In it's current state I don't see it being used a lot, since it has to compete with either a maelstrom staff or a 5-piece set that can be front-barred (especially now that spell strategist is out). In AoE scenarios, it is easier to use a lightning staff and in single target scenarios, you have better options.

Secondly, the spell penetration is not a good 1 piece bonus. Having uneven spell penetration is somehting you do not want in optimised groups, or any group for that matter, because you're either missing the cap on one bar or overpenetrating on the other, making the bonus less effective.

jaws343 · October 2018

Masel92 wrote: »

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Greetings! Thank you for the in depth feedback on the item set, posts like these greatly help the team respond to input, internally balance, and make decisions. Just a few notes of clarification however since we've seen some confusion on it in the past.

Since this item set applies a unique effect on targets it affects, it is intentional that it will not Critically Strike. We balance this internally with the numbers we apply to the set, so that it has healthy balance of where it can be used in the game. While we generally tend to focus more on the performance of a set based on where it is sourced from, we still are mindful that you might want to find different ways to use them! We’re always open to suggestions and feedback on improving that aspect of our item set development, because there’s always room for getting better at it.

Another note on the current function of this item set, since our ability augmenting item sets tend to have a variety of development paths we can take.
Sometimes we take the direction of an ability enhancer, which simply adds a new bonus to you merely using an ability. For example, the Mender’s Ward or Spectral Cloak sets both fit into this category.

Other times we take a very different direction where we want players to be able to use an ability they might have not used otherwise, for a new purpose. In this case we have sets such as Piercing Spray (Asylum Bow) or Rampaging Slash (Maelstrom One Hand and Shield).

Currently the Wild Impulse set is designed to fit into the new purpose path where a player can use this ability that would generally be used very frequently, and instead manage it over a timed duration to gain a new benefit.

That being said, we’re always monitoring the performance and perceptions that players vocalize on, so please keep at it!

Hey Gilliam, cool that you reply to this feedback thread. I get the overall tendency of the set item, and that you want it to be used as another DoT-effect based on Impulse. But I don't really understand why this one is able to critically strike, and the maelstrom twohander is not. If it is just the tooltip phrasing (one putting lingering elemental damage and one saying that the skill does damage over time) then I recommend rephrasing it and making it crittable. In it's current state I don't see it being used a lot, since it has to compete with either a maelstrom staff or a 5-piece set that can be front-barred (especially now that spell strategist is out). In AoE scenarios, it is easier to use a lightning staff and in single target scenarios, you have better options.

Secondly, the spell penetration is not a good 1 piece bonus. Having uneven spell penetration is somehting you do not want in optimised groups, or any group for that matter, because you're either missing the cap on one bar or overpenetrating on the other, making the bonus less effective.

Not all sets need to be optimal in PVE, some can be better served in PVP. So the spell pen is a welcome addition in that regard.

Masel · October 2018

jaws343 wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Greetings! Thank you for the in depth feedback on the item set, posts like these greatly help the team respond to input, internally balance, and make decisions. Just a few notes of clarification however since we've seen some confusion on it in the past.

Since this item set applies a unique effect on targets it affects, it is intentional that it will not Critically Strike. We balance this internally with the numbers we apply to the set, so that it has healthy balance of where it can be used in the game. While we generally tend to focus more on the performance of a set based on where it is sourced from, we still are mindful that you might want to find different ways to use them! We’re always open to suggestions and feedback on improving that aspect of our item set development, because there’s always room for getting better at it.

Another note on the current function of this item set, since our ability augmenting item sets tend to have a variety of development paths we can take.
Sometimes we take the direction of an ability enhancer, which simply adds a new bonus to you merely using an ability. For example, the Mender’s Ward or Spectral Cloak sets both fit into this category.

Other times we take a very different direction where we want players to be able to use an ability they might have not used otherwise, for a new purpose. In this case we have sets such as Piercing Spray (Asylum Bow) or Rampaging Slash (Maelstrom One Hand and Shield).

Currently the Wild Impulse set is designed to fit into the new purpose path where a player can use this ability that would generally be used very frequently, and instead manage it over a timed duration to gain a new benefit.

That being said, we’re always monitoring the performance and perceptions that players vocalize on, so please keep at it!

Hey Gilliam, cool that you reply to this feedback thread. I get the overall tendency of the set item, and that you want it to be used as another DoT-effect based on Impulse. But I don't really understand why this one is able to critically strike, and the maelstrom twohander is not. If it is just the tooltip phrasing (one putting lingering elemental damage and one saying that the skill does damage over time) then I recommend rephrasing it and making it crittable. In it's current state I don't see it being used a lot, since it has to compete with either a maelstrom staff or a 5-piece set that can be front-barred (especially now that spell strategist is out). In AoE scenarios, it is easier to use a lightning staff and in single target scenarios, you have better options.

Secondly, the spell penetration is not a good 1 piece bonus. Having uneven spell penetration is somehting you do not want in optimised groups, or any group for that matter, because you're either missing the cap on one bar or overpenetrating on the other, making the bonus less effective.

Not all sets need to be optimal in PVE, some can be better served in PVP. So the spell pen is a welcome addition in that regard.

Thing is, will you use it over other sets in pvp? I haven't met anyone who would... But maybe you're the first

NBrookus · October 2018

jaws343 wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Greetings! Thank you for the in depth feedback on the item set, posts like these greatly help the team respond to input, internally balance, and make decisions. Just a few notes of clarification however since we've seen some confusion on it in the past.

Since this item set applies a unique effect on targets it affects, it is intentional that it will not Critically Strike. We balance this internally with the numbers we apply to the set, so that it has healthy balance of where it can be used in the game. While we generally tend to focus more on the performance of a set based on where it is sourced from, we still are mindful that you might want to find different ways to use them! We’re always open to suggestions and feedback on improving that aspect of our item set development, because there’s always room for getting better at it.

Another note on the current function of this item set, since our ability augmenting item sets tend to have a variety of development paths we can take.
Sometimes we take the direction of an ability enhancer, which simply adds a new bonus to you merely using an ability. For example, the Mender’s Ward or Spectral Cloak sets both fit into this category.

Other times we take a very different direction where we want players to be able to use an ability they might have not used otherwise, for a new purpose. In this case we have sets such as Piercing Spray (Asylum Bow) or Rampaging Slash (Maelstrom One Hand and Shield).

Currently the Wild Impulse set is designed to fit into the new purpose path where a player can use this ability that would generally be used very frequently, and instead manage it over a timed duration to gain a new benefit.

That being said, we’re always monitoring the performance and perceptions that players vocalize on, so please keep at it!

Hey Gilliam, cool that you reply to this feedback thread. I get the overall tendency of the set item, and that you want it to be used as another DoT-effect based on Impulse. But I don't really understand why this one is able to critically strike, and the maelstrom twohander is not. If it is just the tooltip phrasing (one putting lingering elemental damage and one saying that the skill does damage over time) then I recommend rephrasing it and making it crittable. In it's current state I don't see it being used a lot, since it has to compete with either a maelstrom staff or a 5-piece set that can be front-barred (especially now that spell strategist is out). In AoE scenarios, it is easier to use a lightning staff and in single target scenarios, you have better options.

Secondly, the spell penetration is not a good 1 piece bonus. Having uneven spell penetration is somehting you do not want in optimised groups, or any group for that matter, because you're either missing the cap on one bar or overpenetrating on the other, making the bonus less effective.

Not all sets need to be optimal in PVE, some can be better served in PVP. So the spell pen is a welcome addition in that regard.

The devs have stated that sets gained in PVP should be of most use in PVP, and vice versa for PVE. Obviously in reality this is just not true, but if that is their (current) state design goal than a PVE weapon should be optimized for PVE, not PVP.

dpencil1 · October 2018

Masel92 wrote: »

But I don't really understand why this one is able to critically strike, and the maelstrom twohander is not.

@Masel92 I didn't understand this. Wild Impulse is not able to critically strike, nor apparently can the Maelstrom 2-hander.

@ZOS_Gilliam Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Understanding now that not critting is intentional, I would just question whether 3333 is really the best tooltip value for the dot. Slimming the time from 9 seconds to 8 seconds certainly helps it fit better into a standard Sorc PvE rotation, which usually needs to refresh every 8 seconds for Wall of Elements anyway, and that increased the dps slightly between the last PTS and this one.

I would suggest running an internal dps test with the Wild Impulse dot tooltip value set to 4000 and comparing the overall dps to Blockade of Elements.

If I apply that tooltip to my previous example in the OP, (understanding that with all buffs up the actual damage value is about 40% stronger than the tooltip, 45% for the shock damage due to the Sorc passive) this is what get:
[0.00] Shock Ring - 9028
[1.98] Wild Impulse (Fire) - 5600
[5.03] Wild Impulse (Lightning) - 7006
[7.97] Wild Impulse (Ice) - 5600

Total non-crit damage = 27,234
DPS = 3404 (4 ticks over 8 seconds)

[0.00] CRIT Shock Ring - 15077
[1.98] Wild Impulse (Fire) - 5600
[5.03] Wild Impulse (Lightning) - 7006
[7.97] Wild Impulse (Ice) - 5600

Total CRIT damage = 33,283
DPS = 4160

Average dps at 40% crit rate = 3706

Compared to...
Liquid Lightning = 4551
Blockade of Storms = 3719
Wild Impulse (current) = 3201

At least by my math, using the exact same build and parameters, if the tooltip for Wild Impulse was 4000, the average dps would be almost exactly that of Blockade. Given what Masel92 mentioned (i.e. the loss of a potential 4-5 piece or monster set), this value seems more appropriate to me. That's my opinion, anyway.

I also agree with Masel92 that, while having more Spell Pen is certainly attractive, it's difficult to justify on a weapon for the reasons he mentioned. Generally speaking, the best 1-piece bonuses on a destro staff would probably be Spell Crit or Spell Damage. An alternative that sticks with penetration would be to have the 1-piece be that Impulse also applies Minor Breach.

Masel · October 2018

dpencil1 wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

But I don't really understand why this one is able to critically strike, and the maelstrom twohander is not.

@Masel92 I didn't understand this. Wild Impulse is not able to critically strike, nor apparently can the Maelstrom 2-hander.

@ZOS_Gilliam Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Understanding now that not critting is intentional, I would just question whether 3333 is really the best tooltip value for the dot. Slimming the time from 9 seconds to 8 seconds certainly helps it fit better into a standard Sorc PvE rotation, which usually needs to refresh every 8 seconds for Wall of Elements anyway, and that increased the dps slightly between the last PTS and this one.

I would suggest running an internal dps test with the Wild Impulse dot tooltip value set to 4000 and comparing the overall dps to Blockade of Elements.

If I apply that tooltip to my previous example in the OP, (understanding that with all buffs up the actual damage value is about 40% stronger than the tooltip, 45% for the shock damage due to the Sorc passive) this is what get:
[0.00] Shock Ring - 9028
[1.98] Wild Impulse (Fire) - 5600
[5.03] Wild Impulse (Lightning) - 7006
[7.97] Wild Impulse (Ice) - 5600

Total non-crit damage = 27,234
DPS = 3404 (4 ticks over 8 seconds)

[0.00] CRIT Shock Ring - 15077
[1.98] Wild Impulse (Fire) - 5600
[5.03] Wild Impulse (Lightning) - 7006
[7.97] Wild Impulse (Ice) - 5600

Total CRIT damage = 33,283
DPS = 4160

Average dps at 40% crit rate = 3706

Compared to...
Liquid Lightning = 4551
Blockade of Storms = 3719
Wild Impulse (current) = 3201

At least by my math, using the exact same build and parameters, if the tooltip for Wild Impulse was 4000, the average dps would be almost exactly that of Blockade. Given what Masel92 mentioned (i.e. the loss of a potential 4-5 piece or monster set), this value seems more appropriate to me. That's my opinion, anyway. I also agree with Masel92 that, while having more Spell Pen is certainly attractive, it's difficult to justify on a weapon for the reasons he mentioned.

The maelstrom twohander can critically strike, not the wild impulse, I meant it the other way around. On live the maelstrom one definitely does critically strike.

dpencil1 · October 2018

@Masel92 Ah, gotcha. Yeah, some consistency across all weapon sets would be nice.

ezio45 · October 2018

Masel92 wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Greetings! Thank you for the in depth feedback on the item set, posts like these greatly help the team respond to input, internally balance, and make decisions. Just a few notes of clarification however since we've seen some confusion on it in the past.

Since this item set applies a unique effect on targets it affects, it is intentional that it will not Critically Strike. We balance this internally with the numbers we apply to the set, so that it has healthy balance of where it can be used in the game. While we generally tend to focus more on the performance of a set based on where it is sourced from, we still are mindful that you might want to find different ways to use them! We’re always open to suggestions and feedback on improving that aspect of our item set development, because there’s always room for getting better at it.

Another note on the current function of this item set, since our ability augmenting item sets tend to have a variety of development paths we can take.
Sometimes we take the direction of an ability enhancer, which simply adds a new bonus to you merely using an ability. For example, the Mender’s Ward or Spectral Cloak sets both fit into this category.

Other times we take a very different direction where we want players to be able to use an ability they might have not used otherwise, for a new purpose. In this case we have sets such as Piercing Spray (Asylum Bow) or Rampaging Slash (Maelstrom One Hand and Shield).

Currently the Wild Impulse set is designed to fit into the new purpose path where a player can use this ability that would generally be used very frequently, and instead manage it over a timed duration to gain a new benefit.

That being said, we’re always monitoring the performance and perceptions that players vocalize on, so please keep at it!

Hey Gilliam, cool that you reply to this feedback thread. I get the overall tendency of the set item, and that you want it to be used as another DoT-effect based on Impulse. But I don't really understand why this one is able to critically strike, and the maelstrom twohander is not. If it is just the tooltip phrasing (one putting lingering elemental damage and one saying that the skill does damage over time) then I recommend rephrasing it and making it crittable. In it's current state I don't see it being used a lot, since it has to compete with either a maelstrom staff or a 5-piece set that can be front-barred (especially now that spell strategist is out). In AoE scenarios, it is easier to use a lightning staff and in single target scenarios, you have better options.

Secondly, the spell penetration is not a good 1 piece bonus. Having uneven spell penetration is somehting you do not want in optimised groups, or any group for that matter, because you're either missing the cap on one bar or overpenetrating on the other, making the bonus less effective.

Not all sets need to be optimal in PVE, some can be better served in PVP. So the spell pen is a welcome addition in that regard.

Thing is, will you use it over other sets in pvp? I haven't met anyone who would... But maybe you're the first

I might use it but only on a bombblade, other than than I dont see this being good enough to replace crushing/asylum staff

DoonerSeraph · October 2018

Masel92 wrote: »

dpencil1 wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

But I don't really understand why this one is able to critically strike, and the maelstrom twohander is not.

@Masel92 I didn't understand this. Wild Impulse is not able to critically strike, nor apparently can the Maelstrom 2-hander.

@ZOS_Gilliam Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Understanding now that not critting is intentional, I would just question whether 3333 is really the best tooltip value for the dot. Slimming the time from 9 seconds to 8 seconds certainly helps it fit better into a standard Sorc PvE rotation, which usually needs to refresh every 8 seconds for Wall of Elements anyway, and that increased the dps slightly between the last PTS and this one.

I would suggest running an internal dps test with the Wild Impulse dot tooltip value set to 4000 and comparing the overall dps to Blockade of Elements.

If I apply that tooltip to my previous example in the OP, (understanding that with all buffs up the actual damage value is about 40% stronger than the tooltip, 45% for the shock damage due to the Sorc passive) this is what get:
[0.00] Shock Ring - 9028
[1.98] Wild Impulse (Fire) - 5600
[5.03] Wild Impulse (Lightning) - 7006
[7.97] Wild Impulse (Ice) - 5600

Total non-crit damage = 27,234
DPS = 3404 (4 ticks over 8 seconds)

[0.00] CRIT Shock Ring - 15077
[1.98] Wild Impulse (Fire) - 5600
[5.03] Wild Impulse (Lightning) - 7006
[7.97] Wild Impulse (Ice) - 5600

Total CRIT damage = 33,283
DPS = 4160

Average dps at 40% crit rate = 3706

Compared to...
Liquid Lightning = 4551
Blockade of Storms = 3719
Wild Impulse (current) = 3201

At least by my math, using the exact same build and parameters, if the tooltip for Wild Impulse was 4000, the average dps would be almost exactly that of Blockade. Given what Masel92 mentioned (i.e. the loss of a potential 4-5 piece or monster set), this value seems more appropriate to me. That's my opinion, anyway. I also agree with Masel92 that, while having more Spell Pen is certainly attractive, it's difficult to justify on a weapon for the reasons he mentioned.

The maelstrom twohander can critically strike, not the wild impulse, I meant it the other way around. On live the maelstrom one definitely does critically strike.

That may be a bug though. Unfathomable Darkness is also capable of critting.

Masel · October 2018

DoonerSeraph wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

dpencil1 wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

But I don't really understand why this one is able to critically strike, and the maelstrom twohander is not.

@Masel92 I didn't understand this. Wild Impulse is not able to critically strike, nor apparently can the Maelstrom 2-hander.

@ZOS_Gilliam Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Understanding now that not critting is intentional, I would just question whether 3333 is really the best tooltip value for the dot. Slimming the time from 9 seconds to 8 seconds certainly helps it fit better into a standard Sorc PvE rotation, which usually needs to refresh every 8 seconds for Wall of Elements anyway, and that increased the dps slightly between the last PTS and this one.

I would suggest running an internal dps test with the Wild Impulse dot tooltip value set to 4000 and comparing the overall dps to Blockade of Elements.

If I apply that tooltip to my previous example in the OP, (understanding that with all buffs up the actual damage value is about 40% stronger than the tooltip, 45% for the shock damage due to the Sorc passive) this is what get:
[0.00] Shock Ring - 9028
[1.98] Wild Impulse (Fire) - 5600
[5.03] Wild Impulse (Lightning) - 7006
[7.97] Wild Impulse (Ice) - 5600

Total non-crit damage = 27,234
DPS = 3404 (4 ticks over 8 seconds)

[0.00] CRIT Shock Ring - 15077
[1.98] Wild Impulse (Fire) - 5600
[5.03] Wild Impulse (Lightning) - 7006
[7.97] Wild Impulse (Ice) - 5600

Total CRIT damage = 33,283
DPS = 4160

Average dps at 40% crit rate = 3706

Compared to...
Liquid Lightning = 4551
Blockade of Storms = 3719
Wild Impulse (current) = 3201

At least by my math, using the exact same build and parameters, if the tooltip for Wild Impulse was 4000, the average dps would be almost exactly that of Blockade. Given what Masel92 mentioned (i.e. the loss of a potential 4-5 piece or monster set), this value seems more appropriate to me. That's my opinion, anyway. I also agree with Masel92 that, while having more Spell Pen is certainly attractive, it's difficult to justify on a weapon for the reasons he mentioned.

The maelstrom twohander can critically strike, not the wild impulse, I meant it the other way around. On live the maelstrom one definitely does critically strike.

That may be a bug though. Unfathomable Darkness is also capable of critting.

It may be a bug, but it's the only thing that makes people use the weapon. So in that case they have to consider which one is better. Because I think it is fine for ability altering weapons to critically strike, since they apply to abilities and shouldn't count as a proc set.

Joy_Division · October 2018

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Since this item set applies a unique effect on targets it affects, it is intentional that it will not Critically Strike.

I don't think this is a good idea. Critical strikes are for the most part a constant mechanic in the game that promotes more diversity. Also how are players supposed to know this does not critically strike? It is very frustrating to not know the mechanics of how stuff works.

kojou · October 2018

I see this as a PVP weapon for keeping Nightblades out of stealth and putting pressure on them...

Also, for damage comparison I think it would make more sense to compare DPS with Grothdar, Zaan, and Ilambris rather than a skill since you will likely be giving up one of these sets to run it.

And finally... The spell penetration bonus would make more sense if it were on all Magicka ability enhancement weapons, so you can run 2 and have the same spell penetration on both "bars" in a rotation in PvE.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · October 2018

DoonerSeraph wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

dpencil1 wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

But I don't really understand why this one is able to critically strike, and the maelstrom twohander is not.

@Masel92 I didn't understand this. Wild Impulse is not able to critically strike, nor apparently can the Maelstrom 2-hander.

@ZOS_Gilliam Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Understanding now that not critting is intentional, I would just question whether 3333 is really the best tooltip value for the dot. Slimming the time from 9 seconds to 8 seconds certainly helps it fit better into a standard Sorc PvE rotation, which usually needs to refresh every 8 seconds for Wall of Elements anyway, and that increased the dps slightly between the last PTS and this one.

I would suggest running an internal dps test with the Wild Impulse dot tooltip value set to 4000 and comparing the overall dps to Blockade of Elements.

If I apply that tooltip to my previous example in the OP, (understanding that with all buffs up the actual damage value is about 40% stronger than the tooltip, 45% for the shock damage due to the Sorc passive) this is what get:
[0.00] Shock Ring - 9028
[1.98] Wild Impulse (Fire) - 5600
[5.03] Wild Impulse (Lightning) - 7006
[7.97] Wild Impulse (Ice) - 5600

Total non-crit damage = 27,234
DPS = 3404 (4 ticks over 8 seconds)

[0.00] CRIT Shock Ring - 15077
[1.98] Wild Impulse (Fire) - 5600
[5.03] Wild Impulse (Lightning) - 7006
[7.97] Wild Impulse (Ice) - 5600

Total CRIT damage = 33,283
DPS = 4160

Average dps at 40% crit rate = 3706

Compared to...
Liquid Lightning = 4551
Blockade of Storms = 3719
Wild Impulse (current) = 3201

At least by my math, using the exact same build and parameters, if the tooltip for Wild Impulse was 4000, the average dps would be almost exactly that of Blockade. Given what Masel92 mentioned (i.e. the loss of a potential 4-5 piece or monster set), this value seems more appropriate to me. That's my opinion, anyway. I also agree with Masel92 that, while having more Spell Pen is certainly attractive, it's difficult to justify on a weapon for the reasons he mentioned.

The maelstrom twohander can critically strike, not the wild impulse, I meant it the other way around. On live the maelstrom one definitely does critically strike.

That may be a bug though. Unfathomable Darkness is also capable of critting.

i use unfathomable darkness all the time on my bowden, the set used to crit, it does not now, was fixed a couple of patches ago.

killahsin · October 2018

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Greetings! Thank you for the in depth feedback on the item set, posts like these greatly help the team respond to input, internally balance, and make decisions. Just a few notes of clarification however since we've seen some confusion on it in the past.

Since this item set applies a unique effect on targets it affects, it is intentional that it will not Critically Strike. We balance this internally with the numbers we apply to the set, so that it has healthy balance of where it can be used in the game. While we generally tend to focus more on the performance of a set based on where it is sourced from, we still are mindful that you might want to find different ways to use them! We’re always open to suggestions and feedback on improving that aspect of our item set development, because there’s always room for getting better at it.

Another note on the current function of this item set, since our ability augmenting item sets tend to have a variety of development paths we can take.
Sometimes we take the direction of an ability enhancer, which simply adds a new bonus to you merely using an ability. For example, the Mender’s Ward or Spectral Cloak sets both fit into this category.

Other times we take a very different direction where we want players to be able to use an ability they might have not used otherwise, for a new purpose. In this case we have sets such as Piercing Spray (Asylum Bow) or Rampaging Slash (Maelstrom One Hand and Shield).

Currently the Wild Impulse set is designed to fit into the new purpose path where a player can use this ability that would generally be used very frequently, and instead manage it over a timed duration to gain a new benefit.

That being said, we’re always monitoring the performance and perceptions that players vocalize on, so please keep at it!

this is a well written good response. GG man. Good addition to the team.

ezio45 · October 2018

Masel92 wrote: »

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Greetings! Thank you for the in depth feedback on the item set, posts like these greatly help the team respond to input, internally balance, and make decisions. Just a few notes of clarification however since we've seen some confusion on it in the past.

Since this item set applies a unique effect on targets it affects, it is intentional that it will not Critically Strike. We balance this internally with the numbers we apply to the set, so that it has healthy balance of where it can be used in the game. While we generally tend to focus more on the performance of a set based on where it is sourced from, we still are mindful that you might want to find different ways to use them! We’re always open to suggestions and feedback on improving that aspect of our item set development, because there’s always room for getting better at it.

Another note on the current function of this item set, since our ability augmenting item sets tend to have a variety of development paths we can take.
Sometimes we take the direction of an ability enhancer, which simply adds a new bonus to you merely using an ability. For example, the Mender’s Ward or Spectral Cloak sets both fit into this category.

Other times we take a very different direction where we want players to be able to use an ability they might have not used otherwise, for a new purpose. In this case we have sets such as Piercing Spray (Asylum Bow) or Rampaging Slash (Maelstrom One Hand and Shield).

Currently the Wild Impulse set is designed to fit into the new purpose path where a player can use this ability that would generally be used very frequently, and instead manage it over a timed duration to gain a new benefit.

That being said, we’re always monitoring the performance and perceptions that players vocalize on, so please keep at it!

Hey Gilliam, cool that you reply to this feedback thread. I get the overall tendency of the set item, and that you want it to be used as another DoT-effect based on Impulse. But I don't really understand why this one is unable to critically strike, and the maelstrom twohander is. If it is just the tooltip phrasing (one putting lingering elemental damage and one saying that the skill does damage over time) then I recommend rephrasing it and making it crittable. In it's current state I don't see it being used a lot, since it has to compete with either a maelstrom staff or a 5-piece set that can be front-barred (especially now that spell strategist is out). In AoE scenarios, it is easier to use a lightning staff and in single target scenarios, you have better options.

Secondly, the spell penetration is not a good 1 piece bonus. Having uneven spell penetration is somehting you do not want in optimised groups, or any group for that matter, because you're either missing the cap on one bar or overpenetrating on the other, making the bonus less effective.

really good point on the spell pen @Masel92 that completely skipped me, same with the passive for the destrucyion staff that ingnores 10% it means all your other skill will be under pen or the destro skills will just be over pen