Sorc deservers DPS boost, not survivability nerf

StamWhipCultist

IIuvatar wrote: »

Im MagSorc main with 1462h of gameplay and I think ZOS should pump up our PVE damage, not nerf our shield. I can reach up to 38k DPS, Alcast (with a build modified special for testing skeleton) can reach 41k DPS, but these values are not even close to what a skilled MagBlade can achieve. I have guildmates with 50-60k DPS while any MagSorc can reach 45k DPS at best. Sorc only advantage was survivability and thus more DPS uptime, but now ZOS took our shield from us making Sorc literally the worst class there is without any advantages.

daym? Not BiS PvE class?
Zos, they demand you boost them, they need to be at least twice as good as any other class.
They payed for game, you know.
Even bought a crown crate once.

Feanor

Well, you know. As long as there are so many players who have had a Fury or Implosion proc on their Death Recap recently, I doubt the class will see any rework. And that’s what it needs. I don’t even want freaking buffs - I want a rework that restores the class as the mobile spell caster it once was and that I wanted to play when I created my char at launch in 2014.

Beardimus

Feanor wrote: »

@Turelus

The fun thing is we get both - a survivability nerf and no compensation anywhere.

Spot on, and the issue there is we need to lower sustain (even going impen over well fitted hurts) or damage in order to compensate.

And lose bar space for things like Boundless as resisitance is key.

#uncool

Make us glass cannons, our natrual role. Not tanks that hit wet and run out of resources

Schattenfluegel

The only Buff, what you need on a sorc, is a change to Dark Deal - you dont even need more on the class. If you dont have the casttime, you will be able to sustain an LA rota on the 6 mill dummy.

The DMG isnt bad, but our Classsustain (Stamina and Magicka) is the real Problem - and nothing else.

MehrunesFlagon

Eyesinthedrk wrote: »

Just revert to pre morrowind cp with 25% max recovery and 25% max cost reduction. Every class will be competitive again, and everyone in PVE will be happy.

They really should.

MehrunesFlagon

Zeromaz wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Turelus

The fun thing is we get both - a survivability nerf and no compensation anywhere.

In what world do you believe you’re entitled to a buff after a nerf to bring something in line with the rest of us?

Essentially, you expect your over performing class to get a nerf in one department, and to again, be buffed to over perform in another.

Sorc was not over performing.

usmguy1234

Zeromaz wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Zeromaz wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Turelus

The fun thing is we get both - a survivability nerf and no compensation anywhere.

In what world do you believe you’re entitled to a buff after a nerf to bring something in line with the rest of us?

Essentially, you expect your over performing class to get a nerf in one department, and to again, be buffed to over perform in another.

How is sorc over performing? I've seen enough presumptuous quibble on this forum to last me a lifetime.

I’m not even going to touch this. Someone with your mindset won’t budge no matter what i say. If you are blind to the fact that their burst window is insanely good, all while being able to play defensive at the same time they are offensive.... then i’ll leave you in your own little world

You won't counter because you can't. Your little facade with smoke and mirrors is cute though.

IIuvatar

adeptusminor wrote: »

IIuvatar wrote: »

Im MagSorc main with 1462h of gameplay and I think ZOS should pump up our PVE damage, not nerf our shield. I can reach up to 38k DPS, Alcast (with a build modified special for testing skeleton) can reach 41k DPS, but these values are not even close to what a skilled MagBlade can achieve. I have guildmates with 50-60k DPS while any MagSorc can reach 45k DPS at best. Sorc only advantage was survivability and thus more DPS uptime, but now ZOS took our shield from us making Sorc literally the worst class there is without any advantages.

A good sorc will dummy parse closer to 50k than to 45k. You do realize the reason why nightblades parse higher on a dummy is because of their minor slayer right? Don't pay too much attention to solo dummy parses between classes, they can't be compared when different classes have different self-buffs that get evened out in an actual raid environment.

edit: A guildmates self-buffed magsorc parse

That is what I call a dummy build because in dungeon&trial you cant max out Zaan and Siroria set. Anyhow even that isn't close to what a skilled NightBlade can reach. And ZOS says Sorcs are unballanced?

adeptusminor

IIuvatar wrote: »

That is what I call a dummy build because in dungeon&trial you cant max out Zaan and Siroria set. Anyhow even that isn't close to what a skilled NightBlade can reach. And ZOS says Sorcs are unballanced?

Calling that sorc parse a dummy build is laughable because I, and many other much better players than myself, almost always run Zaans and Siroria (and yes will get often get both maxxed stacks of Siroria and the full damage of Zaans) in vet trials, even in vCR+3, so you are 100% wrong on that account. Then you post a true dummy build parse where the guy is running lover, is a nightblade with built in minor beserk, looking at his max magicka likely getting outside support as well, and on top of all that parsing on a 3 million dummy which is considered a burst test, not a sustained parse test lol.

In any case, again because you seemed to have skipped over this in my previous post, you do realize that it's pointless to compare dummy parses between classes because some classes, like nightblades, have built in passives that give them raid buffs somewhat "artifically" boosting their solo parses (in the case of nightblades with minor beserk, +8% higher) that other classes will get in trials.

Back to the sustain issue, here is another sorc parse from the same guy from my guild on a 52 (FIFTY TWO) million health dummy. Fully self-buffed LA rotation with infinite sustain.


With the buffs to pets and frags coming in Murkmire and being able to self-sustain a 52m dummy while managing to hit ~45k, yeah I would say that sorcs could be considered pretty well balanced once those buffs go live.

Illuvatarr

StamWhipCultist wrote: »

IIuvatar wrote: »

Im MagSorc main with 1462h of gameplay and I think ZOS should pump up our PVE damage, not nerf our shield. I can reach up to 38k DPS, Alcast (with a build modified special for testing skeleton) can reach 41k DPS, but these values are not even close to what a skilled MagBlade can achieve. I have guildmates with 50-60k DPS while any MagSorc can reach 45k DPS at best. Sorc only advantage was survivability and thus more DPS uptime, but now ZOS took our shield from us making Sorc literally the worst class there is without any advantages.

daym? Not BiS PvE class?
Zos, they demand you boost them, they need to be at least twice as good as any other class.
They payed for game, you know.
Even bought a crown crate once.

I didn’t write that.

Vahrokh

adeptusminor wrote: »

IIuvatar wrote: »

That is what I call a dummy build because in dungeon&trial you cant max out Zaan and Siroria set. Anyhow even that isn't close to what a skilled NightBlade can reach. And ZOS says Sorcs are unballanced?

Calling that sorc parse a dummy build is laughable because I, and many other much better players than myself, almost always run Zaans and Siroria (and yes will get often get both maxxed stacks of Siroria and the full damage of Zaans) in vet trials, even in vCR+3

Wasn't the excuse for massively higher stamina DPS the "they are at melee range, they risk much more"?

Because I've played myself with Zaan and I don't exactly appreciate doing 10K DPS less than them, while being at melee range exactly like them AND not having their stamina to roll dodge.

adeptusminor

Vahrokh wrote: »

adeptusminor wrote: »

IIuvatar wrote: »

That is what I call a dummy build because in dungeon&trial you cant max out Zaan and Siroria set. Anyhow even that isn't close to what a skilled NightBlade can reach. And ZOS says Sorcs are unballanced?

Calling that sorc parse a dummy build is laughable because I, and many other much better players than myself, almost always run Zaans and Siroria (and yes will get often get both maxxed stacks of Siroria and the full damage of Zaans) in vet trials, even in vCR+3

Wasn't the excuse for massively higher stamina DPS the "they are at melee range, they risk much more"?

Because I've played myself with Zaan and I don't exactly appreciate doing 10K DPS less than them, while being at melee range exactly like them AND not having their stamina to roll dodge.

Well ranged do have 2 trials pretty much exclusively to themselves (vAS and vCR). But yeah, generally the reasoning for stam to hit harder is because they have to stay in melee range AT ALL TIMES. With Zaans you only need to be in melee range for 5 seconds at a time, every 18 seconds, while still benefiting from being ranged the rest of the time, so in my opinion it's kind of a wash.

Vahrokh

You can't really stay there for 5 seconds and go around. If you use Siroria (needed to even get a decent DPS for non NBs) you can't really hop around like a bunny. Nor you'll get healer buff and healing if you don't stay neither with the ranged DPS nor the melee.

Emma_Overload

Eyesinthedrk wrote: »

Just revert to pre morrowind cp with 25% max recovery and 25% max cost reduction. Every class will be competitive again, and everyone in PVE will be happy.

Yes, and then Sorcs could use damage sets in PvP again.

ZOS, what is the point of releasing new damage sets like Spell Strategist that we can't afford to use?

Maryal

ZeroXFF wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Sorcs do get a DPS buff... About 1% buff if even that (frags are back at 20% bonus on PTS).

What happened to the talk of making the frag proc a free cast? That would be a lot more helpful.

They instead made the night blade bow proc cost something.

But it already did cost something. It cost resources to cast the ability and the reason you cast the ability is for the opportunity to trigger the proc. They tried to hide the fact that, in essence, they doubled the cost of the ability (assuming 2 procs per cast) by saying each bow proc would cost half the amount of the base ability. :'(

Kadoin

Eyesinthedrk wrote: »

Just revert to pre morrowind cp with 25% max recovery and 25% max cost reduction. Every class will be competitive again, and everyone in PVE will be happy.

I'd say that magic skills across the board need a cost reduction. The logic behind it was that mag classes had shields and better survivability, yet they've taken it away when they nerfed shields and left the skill costs higher than stam. It's ridiculous and one reason why stam characters can easily stomp mag ones in PvP now, and will continue to do so next patch.

IIuvatar

adeptusminor wrote: »

IIuvatar wrote: »

That is what I call a dummy build because in dungeon&trial you cant max out Zaan and Siroria set. Anyhow even that isn't close to what a skilled NightBlade can reach. And ZOS says Sorcs are unballanced?

Calling that sorc parse a dummy build is laughable because I, and many other much better players than myself, almost always run Zaans and Siroria (and yes will get often get both maxxed stacks of Siroria and the full damage of Zaans) in vet trials, even in vCR+3, so you are 100% wrong on that account. Then you post a true dummy build parse where the guy is running lover, is a nightblade with built in minor beserk, looking at his max magicka likely getting outside support as well, and on top of all that parsing on a 3 million dummy which is considered a burst test, not a sustained parse test lol.

In any case, again because you seemed to have skipped over this in my previous post, you do realize that it's pointless to compare dummy parses between classes because some classes, like nightblades, have built in passives that give them raid buffs somewhat "artifically" boosting their solo parses (in the case of nightblades with minor beserk, +8% higher) that other classes will get in trials.

Back to the sustain issue, here is another sorc parse from the same guy from my guild on a 52 (FIFTY TWO) million health dummy. Fully self-buffed LA rotation with infinite sustain.


With the buffs to pets and frags coming in Murkmire and being able to self-sustain a 52m dummy while managing to hit ~45k, yeah I would say that sorcs could be considered pretty well balanced once those buffs go live.

There is still a DPS gap between NB and Sorc, meaning Sorc isn't class that should be nerfed

JobooAGS

IIuvatar wrote: »

adeptusminor wrote: »

IIuvatar wrote: »

That is what I call a dummy build because in dungeon&trial you cant max out Zaan and Siroria set. Anyhow even that isn't close to what a skilled NightBlade can reach. And ZOS says Sorcs are unballanced?

Calling that sorc parse a dummy build is laughable because I, and many other much better players than myself, almost always run Zaans and Siroria (and yes will get often get both maxxed stacks of Siroria and the full damage of Zaans) in vet trials, even in vCR+3, so you are 100% wrong on that account. Then you post a true dummy build parse where the guy is running lover, is a nightblade with built in minor beserk, looking at his max magicka likely getting outside support as well, and on top of all that parsing on a 3 million dummy which is considered a burst test, not a sustained parse test lol.

In any case, again because you seemed to have skipped over this in my previous post, you do realize that it's pointless to compare dummy parses between classes because some classes, like nightblades, have built in passives that give them raid buffs somewhat "artifically" boosting their solo parses (in the case of nightblades with minor beserk, +8% higher) that other classes will get in trials.

Back to the sustain issue, here is another sorc parse from the same guy from my guild on a 52 (FIFTY TWO) million health dummy. Fully self-buffed LA rotation with infinite sustain.


With the buffs to pets and frags coming in Murkmire and being able to self-sustain a 52m dummy while managing to hit ~45k, yeah I would say that sorcs could be considered pretty well balanced once those buffs go live.

There is still a DPS gap between NB and Sorc, meaning Sorc isn't class that should be nerfed

A 6m parse vs a 52m parse

IIuvatar

JobooAGS wrote: »

IIuvatar wrote: »

adeptusminor wrote: »

IIuvatar wrote: »

That is what I call a dummy build because in dungeon&trial you cant max out Zaan and Siroria set. Anyhow even that isn't close to what a skilled NightBlade can reach. And ZOS says Sorcs are unballanced?

Calling that sorc parse a dummy build is laughable because I, and many other much better players than myself, almost always run Zaans and Siroria (and yes will get often get both maxxed stacks of Siroria and the full damage of Zaans) in vet trials, even in vCR+3, so you are 100% wrong on that account. Then you post a true dummy build parse where the guy is running lover, is a nightblade with built in minor beserk, looking at his max magicka likely getting outside support as well, and on top of all that parsing on a 3 million dummy which is considered a burst test, not a sustained parse test lol.

In any case, again because you seemed to have skipped over this in my previous post, you do realize that it's pointless to compare dummy parses between classes because some classes, like nightblades, have built in passives that give them raid buffs somewhat "artifically" boosting their solo parses (in the case of nightblades with minor beserk, +8% higher) that other classes will get in trials.

Back to the sustain issue, here is another sorc parse from the same guy from my guild on a 52 (FIFTY TWO) million health dummy. Fully self-buffed LA rotation with infinite sustain.


With the buffs to pets and frags coming in Murkmire and being able to self-sustain a 52m dummy while managing to hit ~45k, yeah I would say that sorcs could be considered pretty well balanced once those buffs go live.

There is still a DPS gap between NB and Sorc, meaning Sorc isn't class that should be nerfed

A 6m parse vs a 52m parse

6M is sustained.

adeptusminor

IIuvatar wrote: »

6M is sustained.

While 6m is a sustained test, you really really can't compare that to a 52 million parse. You are also again ignoring the fact that nightblades have the minor beserk buff built into their class/rotation (+8% damage), which other classes will get in a raid environment. To keep it as simple as possible, nightblades SHOULD parse higher than any class that doesn't have minor beserk.

If you would like to better understand how classes are comparing on Murkmire, I'd recommend watching Liko's videos here
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuLGCNYH1t5DyQQ5tfU4Hdw/videos

Sorcs are pulling 59k+ on a 6m, with Nightblades hitting 61k+ which is as it should be since in his Sorc parse he doesn't have minor beserk available.

adeptusminor

Vahrokh wrote: »

You can't really stay there for 5 seconds and go around. If you use Siroria (needed to even get a decent DPS for non NBs) you can't really hop around like a bunny. Nor you'll get healer buff and healing if you don't stay neither with the ranged DPS nor the melee.

For a vast majority of trial content you really can just stay there for the 5 seconds. Here are the bosses where I can't really use Zaans effectively as ranged.

1. The Mage in vAA HM (hardmode only, works fine on normal vAA)
2. First boss in vSO
3. Last boss of vHRC
4. vAS+2

Every other boss in every trial I've had no issues running Zaan's. I'm not really sure what you point you are making when you say you won't get healer buffs or healing if you aren't in ranged nor melee, as when using zaan's you will occasionally be near the melee group, and in the other times be in the ranged group.

callen4492

Luigi_Vampa wrote: »

Zeromaz wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Turelus

The fun thing is we get both - a survivability nerf and no compensation anywhere.

In what world do you believe you’re entitled to a buff after a nerf to bring something in line with the rest of us?

Essentially, you expect your over performing class to get a nerf in one department, and to again, be buffed to over perform in another.

How are sorcs over performing? We don't have the highest dps. We aren't the best healers. We are among the worst tanks. In PvP (mag sorc) damage is very telegraphed and predictable and shields are the worst scaling defense when attacked by multiple enemies. Our mobility is average as many Stam builds can sprint faster than we can streak and streak doesn't put us out of gap closer range. Also, we have no snare removal in our toolkit. Our burst heal is tied to an easily killed summon and our sustain skill has a cast time and can be interrupted.

Your assertions about sorcs in PvP before Murkmire are just wrong. Sorcs can make their characters both tanky and high damage dealing by stacking one resource, without having to invest elsewhere. Every single other spec in the game is unable to do that. Also, your mobility is well above average with a class major expedition skill and streak. You may say you have predictable damage but it can be done from long range- most other classes have to get in your face to deal damage. It is easier to 1vX on a magsorc than any other class. I know this from personal experience. You would know the difference but it appears you only play sorc. You use the word “we” when talking about sorcs, so it appears you identify as a sorcerer.

Sorry bud, sorcs are over-performing and it’s obvious to most of the community.

ccmedaddy

Sigh... Can we have at least one thread to address magsorc's dismal performance in PvE without bringing PvP into it?

Vahrokh

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Sigh... Can we have at least one thread to address magsorc's dismal performance in PvE without bringing PvP into it?

The next MMO I play, I'll make damn sure it has no PvP option whatsoever.

Average PvPer:



You just can't have a nice and fun game with them around.

WeylandLabs

Nerf it to OP OMG !!!!

Feanor

@Vahrokh

Yes, blame the PvP players for PvE centric nerfs. NPCs don’t complain after all.

Sorry bud, sorcs are over-performing and it’s obvious to most of the community potatoes.

Fixed it for you, @callen4492

Vahrokh

Feanor wrote: »

@Vahrokh

Yes, blame the PvP players for PvE centric nerfs. NPCs don’t complain after all.

Sorry bud, sorcs are over-performing and it’s obvious to most of the community potatoes.

Fixed it for you, @callen4492

Yeah, let's do the math right: just 90% of the nerfs come from PvP, not 100%.

IIuvatar

adeptusminor wrote: »

IIuvatar wrote: »

6M is sustained.

While 6m is a sustained test, you really really can't compare that to a 52 million parse. You are also again ignoring the fact that nightblades have the minor beserk buff built into their class/rotation (+8% damage), which other classes will get in a raid environment. To keep it as simple as possible, nightblades SHOULD parse higher than any class that doesn't have minor beserk.

If you would like to better understand how classes are comparing on Murkmire, I'd recommend watching Liko's videos here
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuLGCNYH1t5DyQQ5tfU4Hdw/videos

Sorcs are pulling 59k+ on a 6m, with Nightblades hitting 61k+ which is as it should be since in his Sorc parse he doesn't have minor beserk available.

Dude is using PURE dummy build you cant be serious comparing this =D Only blind people cant see DPS gap between MagBlade and MagSorc.

adeptusminor

IIuvatar wrote: »

adeptusminor wrote: »

IIuvatar wrote: »

6M is sustained.

While 6m is a sustained test, you really really can't compare that to a 52 million parse. You are also again ignoring the fact that nightblades have the minor beserk buff built into their class/rotation (+8% damage), which other classes will get in a raid environment. To keep it as simple as possible, nightblades SHOULD parse higher than any class that doesn't have minor beserk.

If you would like to better understand how classes are comparing on Murkmire, I'd recommend watching Liko's videos here
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuLGCNYH1t5DyQQ5tfU4Hdw/videos

Sorcs are pulling 59k+ on a 6m, with Nightblades hitting 61k+ which is as it should be since in his Sorc parse he doesn't have minor beserk available.

Dude is using PURE dummy build you cant be serious comparing this =D Only blind people cant see DPS gap between MagBlade and MagSorc.

Ah, so you're just trolling. Carry on

radarsu

Hello guys, I just came back from Battleground. Met some sorcerers here. While running full tanky MagPlar setup I kept receiving 10-20k dmg/s from 2 sorcs in PvP. Please don't buff sorc damage. It's already broken. And yeah, they were immortal thanks to shields. Was not fun.