Farming bots - the plague

redlink1979

Honestly what would it take for some QA staff members at ZOS to just wander around the world looking for garbage like this and just walk up and perma-ban every bot they see? Hell I'll do it, put me on the payroll.
There's werewolf farming in Camlorn, resource bots in Stros M'Kai, the bear farming bots in Stormhaven, bots near the Deathclaw cave every time I play. Bots near Shattered Grove in Auridon also. The beginning of Rivenspire by the farm is similar. I've even started to notice trains farming along the rivers in Shadowfen. They are always in the same places, practically flaunting it.
Does ZOS doesn't want to ban all the bots because they won't have 10 million players to brag about anymore?!
So, what gives?!

Hämähäkki

And when you're on it ban the kill bots in cyrodiil too. They get me every time😉

ArchMikem

I wouldnt mind this being my day job either. Id take pleasure coming into work just to log on and mass ban every Bot Account i can find. Thin the herd and be on guard for any new ones.

redlink1979

Hämähäkki wrote: »

kill bots in cyrodiil

How I wish the bots were in a PvP area...

Turelus

They do ban if reported, the problem is more are just made.

It's probably never going to be feasible for a company to have someone on the payroll who just sits in game all day banning bots. They would be better to invest the money into improved detection or more GM's who can follow up on reports faster.

SaxonCrusader

Glurin

Hämähäkki wrote: »

And when you're on it ban the kill bots in cyrodiil too. They get me every time😉

Killbots aren't that hard to deal with. Just send wave after wave of your own men against them until they reach their kill limit and shut down.

Hämähäkki

Glurin wrote: »

Hämähäkki wrote: »

And when you're on it ban the kill bots in cyrodiil too. They get me every time😉

Killbots aren't that hard to deal with. Just send wave after wave of your own men against them until they reach their kill limit and shut down.

Yesterday I waved at them a couple of times. They never waved back 😢

AarDoTaazokaan

After Murkmire lands you might change your mind and appreciate the bots being there so you don't feel all alone. #IAmLegend #TheLastManOnNirn

Ermiq

A couple of days ago I've encountered a bot-train farming wolfs in Glenumbra. I reported them, and then started to run in front of them and kill wolfs so bots couldn't get any loot. I last only ~40 minutes, but at least I know they didn't get these 500 rubedo leather.

ruengdet2515

1 account = 1 bot = 59$
10 account = 10 bot = 590$
100 account = 100 bot = 5900$
1000 account = 1000 bot = .....
Why ban ?

shinikaze

ruengdet2515 wrote: »

1 account = 1 bot = 59$
10 account = 10 bot = 590$
100 account = 100 bot = 5900$
1000 account = 1000 bot = .....
Why ban ?

They have to buy new accounts if they want to keep botting

1 bot = 1 account = 59$
10 bot = 10 account = 590$
100 bot = 100 account = 5900$
1000 bot = 1000 account = .....

Why aren't they banning?

Skraticus

Turelus wrote: »

They do ban if reported, the problem is more are just made.

It's probably never going to be feasible for a company to have someone on the payroll who just sits in game all day banning bots. They would be better to invest the money into improved detection or more GM's who can follow up on reports faster.

All day, no, but it would definitely be feasible to get a small number of employees (1 - 5) to spend 30 minutes to an hour each day at a random intervals to log in and do some quick wiping. The employee(s) could do it when they wanted so it wouldn't jar their regular duties.

I'm just getting back into the game and haven't seen the bots yet, but if they are as bad as what OP and the others say and cluster in certain areas, it shouldn't be very hard for them to log in and do some quick bans. Not only would this wipe out more bots than they're currently doing, it might help diversify the bots and keep them from all getting clustered in one area and ruining it for other players. If they don't disperse ... well ... that's just more bots banned then. Seems like a no brainer to me.

Also - in before somebody says "they don't have time to spend 30 - 60 minutes doing that." I guarantee you there's plenty of reddit/imgur/youtube/whatever internet surfing going on while they're "working." I hate to be that kind of boss, but we all know good and well nobody works the whole 8 hours they're at work. A 30 minute task isn't much to ask, and it'd probably be a good relief from what they're doing to go in and wreck some bots.

Turelus

@Skraticus but in theory they're doing that when players see and report them. I know it's the cool thing to say "it's not my job" these days but it's how MMO's have worked for many years.
We as players are online and in the game active much more than the GM teams can be, so if we actually bother to report bots then they should in theory be investigated and banned.

During some serious times they have had GM staff come online and sort issues. There was a thread within the last year I believe where someone filmed a GM online with their character.

Sadly ZOS is super tight lipped about their security teams. I've pestered them numerous times on the issues of bots and exploits but they won't really confirm much of how their internal team works. The most information I know is they do have a team and they do actively ban bots daily, but more replace them just as fast as they're banned.

I am not against ZOS hiring some more GM staff to actively battle bots, but at the same time if we all do our little bit it helps. We can also do our bit by making sure we're not supporting bots.
If anyone who has ever purchased gold or been involved in RMT complains about bots then I hope they understand that the bots are there because of people doing actions like they did.

Don't get involved in RMT, tell your friends not to get involved in it, report people you know involved in it.

Skraticus

@Turelus

I've been out of the loop for a few years now, so I don't know how they operate. Do they actually have to manually log in (either to the game or their systems) to ban individuals after "X" number of reports have been received, or is it automatic?

Seems like it might be beneficial to set up some kind of algorithm for automatic bans. One that would obviously be geared towards bots.

Either way, you're right. Players have to do their part both in reporting and NOT utilizing what the bots produce themselves. Unfortunately, I don't think that's ever going to happen because there are always cheaters. If there's a way, people will find it and do it. All the rules, safety precautions, and algorithms in the world can't make a jerk not be a jerk. Such is life, I'm afraid.

Turelus

Skraticus wrote: »

Turelus

I've been out of the loop for a few years now, so I don't know how they operate. Do they actually have to manually log in (either to the game or their systems) to ban individuals after "X" number of reports have been received, or is it automatic?

Seems like it might be beneficial to set up some kind of algorithm for automatic bans. One that would obviously be geared towards bots.

Either way, you're right. Players have to do their part both in reporting and NOT utilizing what the bots produce themselves. Unfortunately, I don't think that's ever going to happen because there are always cheaters. If there's a way, people will find it and do it. All the rules, safety precautions, and algorithms in the world can't make a jerk not be a jerk. Such is life, I'm afraid.

I'm fairly sure they can handle most things from outside of the game client. This would make sense for how they've handled exploit bans in the past as well.
They might however log in to check on bot trains reported or such though, not sure how much they can see from outside the client.

StormChaser3000

I ran into bots a week ago in Grathwood (on NA). A group of four were killing mudcrabs following the same route for hours.. I didn't report them at that time naively hoping that's a one time thing. Pffff....

Yesterday I came back to that place and guess what.... four bots were farming the same place using the same route again... After checking whether they are really bots (killing stuff before them, attempting to communicate, etc) I just reported all four. Let's see if ZOS will do anything about that.

summitxho

I am no programmer, at all by any means, but why can they simply not put some coding in which looks at player activity? Such as that if a player is standing still and light/heavy attacking for a certain period of time, then it gets flagged for ZOS to look into? From the bots I saw on PS4 one late night killed bears in Stormhaven, they were all stationary and light attacking, it just seems to me there should be some code which can flag this behavior as it differentiates between a bot and a real player. I have never stayed still for 10 minutes light attacking thin air until a bear re spawns. Then again like I said, I do not know programming, perhaps this is not doable, or a breech of privacy when tracking player movements.

qbit

Sounds like a few really level-headed folks here willing to take on the burden of having final say in a permanent ban from the game.

I’ll be sure to logout when I go afk rather than stand next to a node for 10 minutes. Because if I’m not there to respond to the “are you a bot” question, I come back to my PC with a perma ban. Sounds legit.

So is it okay when I’m asked if I’m a bot and reply that I am? Because I really am. A new one with advanced AI programmed to also troll the forums to add to the realism.

But seriously, you can’t make bans based on the criteria you consider a bot. Ever. And the logic behind that is simple. Every single criteria you can list that you consider a bot, I can make an account and play with it in such a way that exhibits those without actually using any bot software. So the idea of banning someone without due process based on your own opinion is what we call tyranny. And I hope you stay off juries if you live in the US.

summitxho

qbit wrote: »

Sounds like a few really level-headed folks here willing to take on the burden of having final say in a permanent ban from the game.

I’ll be sure to logout when I go afk rather than stand next to a node for 10 minutes. Because if I’m not there to respond to the “are you a bot” question, I come back to my PC with a perma ban. Sounds legit.

So is it okay when I’m asked if I’m a bot and reply that I am? Because I really am. A new one with advanced AI programmed to also troll the forums to add to the realism.

But seriously, you can’t make bans based on the criteria you consider a bot. Ever. And the logic behind that is simple. Every single criteria you can list that you consider a bot, I can make an account and play with it in such a way that exhibits those without actually using any bot software. So the idea of banning someone without due process based on your own opinion is what we call tyranny. And I hope you stay off juries if you live in the US.

Not sure if you are responding to me, but I never said perma ban, or even ban, simply flagged to look into the behavior. Why would you sit still for 10 minutes light attacking thin air while there was nothing spawned?

StormChaser3000

@summitxho Some of those bots are more complicated. Those that I saw, for example, were running around and while overall route was the same there were slight deviations depending on the position of the surrounding mobs. This might be harder for an automated system to detect.

Probably the most efficient way so far for ZOS is to collect our reports. So if you see bots (and make sure those are really bots) - don't stay silent and report them. You can do that in game. Just chase them with pressed F button and choose Report Player option. Type detailed description why you report them and submit.

summitxho

StormChaser3000 wrote: »

@summitxho Some of those bots are more complicated. Those that I saw, for example, were running around and while overall route was the same there were slight deviations depending on the position of the surrounding mobs. This might be harder for an automated system to detect.

Probably the most efficient way so far for ZOS is to collect our reports. So if you see bots (and make sure those are really bots) - don't stay silent and report them. You can do that in game. Just chase them with pressed F button and choose Report Player option. Type detailed description why you report them and submit.

Fair enough, I do not know much about bots at all, just wish there was something more than relying on players to report.

qbit

summitxho wrote: »

qbit wrote: »

Sounds like a few really level-headed folks here willing to take on the burden of having final say in a permanent ban from the game.

I’ll be sure to logout when I go afk rather than stand next to a node for 10 minutes. Because if I’m not there to respond to the “are you a bot” question, I come back to my PC with a perma ban. Sounds legit.

So is it okay when I’m asked if I’m a bot and reply that I am? Because I really am. A new one with advanced AI programmed to also troll the forums to add to the realism.

But seriously, you can’t make bans based on the criteria you consider a bot. Ever. And the logic behind that is simple. Every single criteria you can list that you consider a bot, I can make an account and play with it in such a way that exhibits those without actually using any bot software. So the idea of banning someone without due process based on your own opinion is what we call tyranny. And I hope you stay off juries if you live in the US.

Not sure if you are responding to me, but I never said perma ban, or even ban, simply flagged to look into the behavior. Why would you sit still for 10 minutes light attacking thin air while there was nothing spawned?

I was responding to anyone that is now or has previously called for bans of people hey deem to be bots. And to answer your last question: I spam light attacks at nothing for 10 minutes because I can and it’s not a violation of TOS.

It’s really that simple.

The bot problem is a statistical analysis problem requiring data that only ZOS has. And it requires a lot of processing and storage to store the metrics needed to actually reliably detect it. Which is why you don’t see anything done about it. Humans simply cannot be reliable bot detectors. Given the emotion demonstrated by people that post about it and comments assuming only a bot would use a nonsensical name or spam an ability near a boss spawn at a dolmen, that’s tells me we definitely don’t need humans evaluating it.

summitxho

qbit wrote: »

summitxho wrote: »

qbit wrote: »

Sounds like a few really level-headed folks here willing to take on the burden of having final say in a permanent ban from the game.

I’ll be sure to logout when I go afk rather than stand next to a node for 10 minutes. Because if I’m not there to respond to the “are you a bot” question, I come back to my PC with a perma ban. Sounds legit.

So is it okay when I’m asked if I’m a bot and reply that I am? Because I really am. A new one with advanced AI programmed to also troll the forums to add to the realism.

But seriously, you can’t make bans based on the criteria you consider a bot. Ever. And the logic behind that is simple. Every single criteria you can list that you consider a bot, I can make an account and play with it in such a way that exhibits those without actually using any bot software. So the idea of banning someone without due process based on your own opinion is what we call tyranny. And I hope you stay off juries if you live in the US.

Not sure if you are responding to me, but I never said perma ban, or even ban, simply flagged to look into the behavior. Why would you sit still for 10 minutes light attacking thin air while there was nothing spawned?

I was responding to anyone that is now or has previously called for bans of people hey deem to be bots. And to answer your last question: I spam light attacks at nothing for 10 minutes because I can and it’s not a violation of TOS.

It’s really that simple.

The bot problem is a statistical analysis problem requiring data that only ZOS has. And it requires a lot of processing and storage to store the metrics needed to actually reliably detect it. Which is why you don’t see anything done about it. Humans simply cannot be reliable bot detectors. Given the emotion demonstrated by people that post about it and comments assuming only a bot would use a nonsensical name or spam an ability near a boss spawn at a dolmen, that’s tells me we definitely don’t need humans evaluating it.

Well you have much more free time than I then. But thank you for answering my question, I guess there are some people out there who like to sit still and spam light attacks, just because they can... Hey your cup of tea go for it.

Ackwalan

Glurin wrote: »

Hämähäkki wrote: »

And when you're on it ban the kill bots in cyrodiil too. They get me every time😉

Killbots aren't that hard to deal with. Just send wave after wave of your own men against them until they reach their kill limit and shut down.

Reistr_the_Unbroken

Will a player who travels all across Summerset (almost every night) to the same places to steal and kill be considered a bot even when they use wayshrines and mounts to get around?

Sorry if this sounds stupid but I haven’t seen any bots yet along my travels, and I do occasionally go to Summerset to steal bc that’s where a bunch of items are that I know aren’t going to be too difficult to get (and that’s the only place I know that has anything decent).

OFFL1MIT

bots are stupid, there's plenty solo quest where's easy to farm/bot. But anyway, what the point to bot anyway... You can still enjoy pvp, pve stuff the same level as capped lvl player. if they're doing it because of blackmarket, that's even dumber too. Who can buy acount that was orignaly used on different email than yours. they can easily ''hack'' it by getting it back. They literally increasing their electricity bill for no reason. its understandable to do it at wow, but at eso pffff silly people .

qbit

summitxho wrote: »

qbit wrote: »

summitxho wrote: »

qbit wrote: »

Sounds like a few really level-headed folks here willing to take on the burden of having final say in a permanent ban from the game.

I’ll be sure to logout when I go afk rather than stand next to a node for 10 minutes. Because if I’m not there to respond to the “are you a bot” question, I come back to my PC with a perma ban. Sounds legit.

So is it okay when I’m asked if I’m a bot and reply that I am? Because I really am. A new one with advanced AI programmed to also troll the forums to add to the realism.

But seriously, you can’t make bans based on the criteria you consider a bot. Ever. And the logic behind that is simple. Every single criteria you can list that you consider a bot, I can make an account and play with it in such a way that exhibits those without actually using any bot software. So the idea of banning someone without due process based on your own opinion is what we call tyranny. And I hope you stay off juries if you live in the US.

Not sure if you are responding to me, but I never said perma ban, or even ban, simply flagged to look into the behavior. Why would you sit still for 10 minutes light attacking thin air while there was nothing spawned?

I was responding to anyone that is now or has previously called for bans of people hey deem to be bots. And to answer your last question: I spam light attacks at nothing for 10 minutes because I can and it’s not a violation of TOS.

It’s really that simple.

The bot problem is a statistical analysis problem requiring data that only ZOS has. And it requires a lot of processing and storage to store the metrics needed to actually reliably detect it. Which is why you don’t see anything done about it. Humans simply cannot be reliable bot detectors. Given the emotion demonstrated by people that post about it and comments assuming only a bot would use a nonsensical name or spam an ability near a boss spawn at a dolmen, that’s tells me we definitely don’t need humans evaluating it.

Well you have much more free time than I then. But thank you for answering my question, I guess there are some people out there who like to sit still and spam light attacks, just because they can... Hey your cup of tea go for it.

I don't do that. That would be stupid. But we can't ban those that want to do that without first making it a violation of the TOS. And that wouldn't make a lot of sense to say that you face a ban if: you stand near crafting nodes and harvest them, have random character name, carry a great sword, run the same route all day long, spam light attacks or abilities at dolmen boss spawns, don't respond to chat, move towards bear traps when people lay them down, etc., etc., etc.

There is already an line in the TOS against using bots. So why would you take these reasonable (albeit ridiculous) actions in game and make them bannable offenses? Who has the right to define which actions are considered botting besides ZOS? And why would they ban accounts without solid and unbiased statistical evidence to prove it?

Well, those were rhetorical questions. And you will continue to have a bot problem until ZOS can afford to process, store, and analyze such data on every account like travel routes for the last 24 hours and input action timing (simple examples, because those can all have artificial entropy introduced by bot authors to hide from algorithmic detection).

It's a very complex problem to solve technically without creating a legal and PR nightmare when they do ban an account falsely in a court jurisdiction that frowns upon that kind of thing.

qbit

Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »

Will a player who travels all across Summerset (almost every night) to the same places to steal and kill be considered a bot even when they use wayshrines and mounts to get around?

Sorry if this sounds stupid but I haven’t seen any bots yet along my travels, and I do occasionally go to Summerset to steal bc that’s where a bunch of items are that I know aren’t going to be too difficult to get (and that’s the only place I know that has anything decent).

No, it doesn't sound stupid. That's the point. These people that are regularly so vocal and emotional about bots in this game can't answer those questions. They just want to be judge, jury, and executioner on peoples' accounts that they've spent potentially thousands of hours on and possibly hundreds if not thousands of dollars on.

I'm glad ZOS does not take their reports seriously. One guy a while back came here and posted a list of player accounts he had been following around and taking videos of... Because he was certain they were bots and wanted them mass reported so they were banned.

And I get told I have too much time on my hands...

summitxho

qbit wrote: »

summitxho wrote: »

qbit wrote: »

summitxho wrote: »

qbit wrote: »

Sounds like a few really level-headed folks here willing to take on the burden of having final say in a permanent ban from the game.

I’ll be sure to logout when I go afk rather than stand next to a node for 10 minutes. Because if I’m not there to respond to the “are you a bot” question, I come back to my PC with a perma ban. Sounds legit.

So is it okay when I’m asked if I’m a bot and reply that I am? Because I really am. A new one with advanced AI programmed to also troll the forums to add to the realism.

But seriously, you can’t make bans based on the criteria you consider a bot. Ever. And the logic behind that is simple. Every single criteria you can list that you consider a bot, I can make an account and play with it in such a way that exhibits those without actually using any bot software. So the idea of banning someone without due process based on your own opinion is what we call tyranny. And I hope you stay off juries if you live in the US.

Not sure if you are responding to me, but I never said perma ban, or even ban, simply flagged to look into the behavior. Why would you sit still for 10 minutes light attacking thin air while there was nothing spawned?

I was responding to anyone that is now or has previously called for bans of people hey deem to be bots. And to answer your last question: I spam light attacks at nothing for 10 minutes because I can and it’s not a violation of TOS.

It’s really that simple.

The bot problem is a statistical analysis problem requiring data that only ZOS has. And it requires a lot of processing and storage to store the metrics needed to actually reliably detect it. Which is why you don’t see anything done about it. Humans simply cannot be reliable bot detectors. Given the emotion demonstrated by people that post about it and comments assuming only a bot would use a nonsensical name or spam an ability near a boss spawn at a dolmen, that’s tells me we definitely don’t need humans evaluating it.

Well you have much more free time than I then. But thank you for answering my question, I guess there are some people out there who like to sit still and spam light attacks, just because they can... Hey your cup of tea go for it.

I don't do that. That would be stupid. But we can't ban those that want to do that without first making it a violation of the TOS. And that wouldn't make a lot of sense to say that you face a ban if: you stand near crafting nodes and harvest them, have random character name, carry a great sword, run the same route all day long, spam light attacks or abilities at dolmen boss spawns, don't respond to chat, move towards bear traps when people lay them down, etc., etc., etc.

There is already an line in the TOS against using bots. So why would you take these reasonable (albeit ridiculous) actions in game and make them bannable offenses? Who has the right to define which actions are considered botting besides ZOS? And why would they ban accounts without solid and unbiased statistical evidence to prove it?

Well, those were rhetorical questions. And you will continue to have a bot problem until ZOS can afford to process, store, and analyze such data on every account like travel routes for the last 24 hours and input action timing (simple examples, because those can all have artificial entropy introduced by bot authors to hide from algorithmic detection).

It's a very complex problem to solve technically without creating a legal and PR nightmare when they do ban an account falsely in a court jurisdiction that frowns upon that kind of thing.

But I never said ban. I said flagged, gotta get ban off your brain if your responding to me as I never said that. An employee looks into flagged accounts deeper to see if they have tendencies which match up with bot patterns. If they see that account has only been in Stormhaven in that similar spot through the entire accounts life, then it gives more credence to the fact this could be a bot. Its a process, not a be all end all decision of a ban. Regardless, as pointed out earlier, it would not work on more complex bots.

qbit

summitxho wrote: »

qbit wrote: »

summitxho wrote: »

qbit wrote: »

summitxho wrote: »

qbit wrote: »

Sounds like a few really level-headed folks here willing to take on the burden of having final say in a permanent ban from the game.

I’ll be sure to logout when I go afk rather than stand next to a node for 10 minutes. Because if I’m not there to respond to the “are you a bot” question, I come back to my PC with a perma ban. Sounds legit.

So is it okay when I’m asked if I’m a bot and reply that I am? Because I really am. A new one with advanced AI programmed to also troll the forums to add to the realism.

But seriously, you can’t make bans based on the criteria you consider a bot. Ever. And the logic behind that is simple. Every single criteria you can list that you consider a bot, I can make an account and play with it in such a way that exhibits those without actually using any bot software. So the idea of banning someone without due process based on your own opinion is what we call tyranny. And I hope you stay off juries if you live in the US.

Not sure if you are responding to me, but I never said perma ban, or even ban, simply flagged to look into the behavior. Why would you sit still for 10 minutes light attacking thin air while there was nothing spawned?

I was responding to anyone that is now or has previously called for bans of people hey deem to be bots. And to answer your last question: I spam light attacks at nothing for 10 minutes because I can and it’s not a violation of TOS.

It’s really that simple.

The bot problem is a statistical analysis problem requiring data that only ZOS has. And it requires a lot of processing and storage to store the metrics needed to actually reliably detect it. Which is why you don’t see anything done about it. Humans simply cannot be reliable bot detectors. Given the emotion demonstrated by people that post about it and comments assuming only a bot would use a nonsensical name or spam an ability near a boss spawn at a dolmen, that’s tells me we definitely don’t need humans evaluating it.

Well you have much more free time than I then. But thank you for answering my question, I guess there are some people out there who like to sit still and spam light attacks, just because they can... Hey your cup of tea go for it.

I don't do that. That would be stupid. But we can't ban those that want to do that without first making it a violation of the TOS. And that wouldn't make a lot of sense to say that you face a ban if: you stand near crafting nodes and harvest them, have random character name, carry a great sword, run the same route all day long, spam light attacks or abilities at dolmen boss spawns, don't respond to chat, move towards bear traps when people lay them down, etc., etc., etc.

There is already an line in the TOS against using bots. So why would you take these reasonable (albeit ridiculous) actions in game and make them bannable offenses? Who has the right to define which actions are considered botting besides ZOS? And why would they ban accounts without solid and unbiased statistical evidence to prove it?

Well, those were rhetorical questions. And you will continue to have a bot problem until ZOS can afford to process, store, and analyze such data on every account like travel routes for the last 24 hours and input action timing (simple examples, because those can all have artificial entropy introduced by bot authors to hide from algorithmic detection).

It's a very complex problem to solve technically without creating a legal and PR nightmare when they do ban an account falsely in a court jurisdiction that frowns upon that kind of thing.

But I never said ban. I said flagged, gotta get ban off your brain if your responding to me as I never said that. An employee looks into flagged accounts deeper to see if they have tendencies which match up with bot patterns. If they see that account has only been in Stormhaven in that similar spot through the entire accounts life, then it gives more credence to the fact this could be a bot. Its a process, not a be all end all decision of a ban. Regardless, as pointed out earlier, it would not work on more complex bots.

I'm not responding to you, dude. Read the first sentence of OP's post. I'll quote it for you: "Honestly what would it take for some QA staff members at ZOS to just wander around the world looking for garbage like this and just walk up and perma-ban every bot they see? Hell I'll do it, put me on the payroll.".

That's why I've "got ban on my brain". But what I've really "got on my brain" is that I'm wasting my time trying to explain this to a group of people who've already made up their minds and don't see value in due process (something that the US players at least should value dearly since our legal system and society is based on it - and it might one day be them falsely accused of a crime). Maybe that's not you (probably isn't since you want them flagged and evaluated). I read these threads on this subject at least once a week, and my response is always the same. Sometimes I'm more or less terse about it.