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Framework of combat system. Weaving timings.
twofaced
✭✭✭
Like most dedicated players, I’m always looking for new challenges in games I play.
First when I completed Cadwell’s Gold I found out there is a pro mechanic so-called weaving. Easy to learn, hard to master they told me, while I was trying to smash buttons as hard as I can with no qualitative leap of my DPS.
Second I faced a requirement of minimum DPS parse to be even taken to trial group. At this point my inner perfectionist decided to create best parse ever seen and after a while I made a simple dummy bot, but turned out his DPS just a bit higher than my manual one. I made a drastically much more complicated bot with custom skill timers and dynamic rotation. And it failed as well, because I didn’t know the gist of ESO combat system, I didn’t know timings.
I bet 95% of players using weaving don’t know how it actually works, so this post should help everyone to optimize their builds and rotation. And hopefully help ZOS fix their balance. Let’s start!
So latest combat meta is LA -> Skill -> sometimes canceling (block or switch bar). When I was young and green I thought, that’s kinda hard but cool. Just click faster and it’s a win. Nope. You can’t weave with LA faster than 950ms each combo. More detailed example:
LA -> 50ms (this could be lower but I'd like to see at least a few frames of character action) ->
Skill -> 450ms (for letting AnimNotify fires and executing an attack, different skills has different delay, but 400 is enough for any) ->
Block for 450ms (or just wait if animation is quick) ->
Repeat
Anyway there must be a ~950ms in total to make successful next LA (you might start wondering about skills with cast time, if you do, read further). Delay between two consecutive LA is 630ms. But what about skills? Best part just started!
You can use two skills with less than 500ms delay using block cancelling (400ms for animation and 100ms for holding block). But it doesn’t mean you can apply all your DoTs from back bar in 1.6sec just clicking block after each skill. There is a cumulative delay for firing next skills. So for 3 successful skills delay between them must be 650ms, for 4 skills – 800ms. And yes there is a cap, previously known 950ms.
So summing up there is no point to not use LA weaving if you going to apply all 5 skills (~3.8sec), but there is no point to click second time in quick LA-Skill-Block-Skill (~450ms) combo.
SwitchBar cancelling is longer than Block cancelling and adds another 100ms to minimum delay (funny that many youtubers think the opposite). I do recommend use it rarely in your rotation.
And now my favorite part. ZOS decided that most powerful skills should have cast time to slow your rotation. And I’ve been hearing from many people that cast time slows your rotation and terribly reduces your DPS. Wrong, wrong and WRONG! Your cast time is counted in minimum delay between two possible LA. What a great balanced decision, right? Someone already figured out that best combo in this game is:
LA-Dark Flare… repeat every second until enemy is dead, because unlike Frags or Jabs Dark Flare gives Empower . Almost 30k DPS with no crit. I'm leveling magplar today.
I’m not a pro build maker and can’t make a best advice for your rotation, I’m sure with the knowledge of combat limitation, you can do it yourself. I came to some conclusions regarding my petsorc-DoT rotation: Clench is bad, HA is still viable, Dark Conversion is also great since I can LA in between with no delay and restore magicka to Frag more often. But I can say with no doubt, if your DPS low it’s because you are wearing sh*t sets or using sh*t skills, not because you click slow. Everybody can use LA+skill every second.
P.S. All tests were made on EU server with 130-160 ping with 40+ FPS. Magsorc and magDK skills were used. If net code is correctly written these parameters should not affect input events and timers so your timings should be the same.
P.P.S Please do not ban me for using a bot, it was just for research purposes and only dummies suffered from it.
First when I completed Cadwell’s Gold I found out there is a pro mechanic so-called weaving. Easy to learn, hard to master they told me, while I was trying to smash buttons as hard as I can with no qualitative leap of my DPS.
Second I faced a requirement of minimum DPS parse to be even taken to trial group. At this point my inner perfectionist decided to create best parse ever seen and after a while I made a simple dummy bot, but turned out his DPS just a bit higher than my manual one. I made a drastically much more complicated bot with custom skill timers and dynamic rotation. And it failed as well, because I didn’t know the gist of ESO combat system, I didn’t know timings.
I bet 95% of players using weaving don’t know how it actually works, so this post should help everyone to optimize their builds and rotation. And hopefully help ZOS fix their balance. Let’s start!
So latest combat meta is LA -> Skill -> sometimes canceling (block or switch bar). When I was young and green I thought, that’s kinda hard but cool. Just click faster and it’s a win. Nope. You can’t weave with LA faster than 950ms each combo. More detailed example:
LA -> 50ms (this could be lower but I'd like to see at least a few frames of character action) ->
Skill -> 450ms (for letting AnimNotify fires and executing an attack, different skills has different delay, but 400 is enough for any) ->
Block for 450ms (or just wait if animation is quick) ->
Repeat
Anyway there must be a ~950ms in total to make successful next LA (you might start wondering about skills with cast time, if you do, read further). Delay between two consecutive LA is 630ms. But what about skills? Best part just started!
You can use two skills with less than 500ms delay using block cancelling (400ms for animation and 100ms for holding block). But it doesn’t mean you can apply all your DoTs from back bar in 1.6sec just clicking block after each skill. There is a cumulative delay for firing next skills. So for 3 successful skills delay between them must be 650ms, for 4 skills – 800ms. And yes there is a cap, previously known 950ms.
Actually this part is far more complex. I’ve made a decent amount of different combat systems, but I can’t even imagine what the hell is their animation queue, it can’t be such complex, most likely just buggy. For example you can't start with small delay and increase it every iteration, maybe the remaining time after cancelling is added to new timer idk
So summing up there is no point to not use LA weaving if you going to apply all 5 skills (~3.8sec), but there is no point to click second time in quick LA-Skill-Block-Skill (~450ms) combo.
SwitchBar cancelling is longer than Block cancelling and adds another 100ms to minimum delay (funny that many youtubers think the opposite). I do recommend use it rarely in your rotation.
And now my favorite part. ZOS decided that most powerful skills should have cast time to slow your rotation. And I’ve been hearing from many people that cast time slows your rotation and terribly reduces your DPS. Wrong, wrong and WRONG! Your cast time is counted in minimum delay between two possible LA. What a great balanced decision, right? Someone already figured out that best combo in this game is:
LA-Dark Flare… repeat every second until enemy is dead, because unlike Frags or Jabs Dark Flare gives Empower . Almost 30k DPS with no crit. I'm leveling magplar today.
I’m not a pro build maker and can’t make a best advice for your rotation, I’m sure with the knowledge of combat limitation, you can do it yourself. I came to some conclusions regarding my petsorc-DoT rotation: Clench is bad, HA is still viable, Dark Conversion is also great since I can LA in between with no delay and restore magicka to Frag more often. But I can say with no doubt, if your DPS low it’s because you are wearing sh*t sets or using sh*t skills, not because you click slow. Everybody can use LA+skill every second.
P.S. All tests were made on EU server with 130-160 ping with 40+ FPS. Magsorc and magDK skills were used. If net code is correctly written these parameters should not affect input events and timers so your timings should be the same.
P.P.S Please do not ban me for using a bot, it was just for research purposes and only dummies suffered from it.
13
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SpAEkus✭✭✭✭Using your research, does this addon appear to track the same thing so it could help get to those best timings?
http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info2048-LightAttackHelper.htmlThe milliseconds value is the time between the last 2 light attacks, so if you want to push yourself try to reduce this number as much as possible in your fights. I am tracking the light attacking information from the server, so the times will be influenced by your latency(ping), and the latency(ping) is not very constant so you might find a bit of floating values.
You can use /laprint to see the statistics from the parse, for example the max and min values to see if your parse was falwless, for example if you get a minumun lower than 800ms probably it means that you did 2 light attacks without a skill in between, and if the maximun is higher than 1800 probably means that you used two skills without a light attack in between0 -
RaptorRodeoGod✭✭✭✭✭You know, I was beginning to think I didnt have sets that complimented each other well...
Thanks for testing, it was very informative!Add a Scribing skill that works like Arcanist beam.
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Veteran players have been alienated and disengaged from Overland since One Tamriel, due to the lack of difficulty, and pushed into dungeons and trials; the minority of content in the Elder Scrolls Online. We can't take the repetition anymore, fix Overland engagement for Vet players. I don't even care if it's not combat related anymore, just make Overland engaging again.
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Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 10 years. 6 paid expansions. 25 DLCs. 41 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. Make a self debuff mythic. Literally anything at this point.0 -
Swomp23✭✭✭✭First, thanks for the in-depth analysis, always interesting to read.
I'm working on my magblade rotation and I have some questions. One of my biggest problems is that sometimes my light attack doesn't go off and I don't understand why. I tried recreating it but it doesn't always do it.
Is this why something my light attack doesn't go off? Because I click it too fast after my skill?Anyway there must be a ~950ms in total to make successful next LA (you might start wondering about skills with cast time, if you do, read further). Delay between two consecutive LA is 630ms.
IF ANIMATION IS QUICK...LA -> 50ms (this could be lower but I'd like to see at least a few frames of character action) ->
Skill -> 450ms (for letting AnimNotify fires and executing an attack, different skills has different delay, but 400 is enough for any) ->
Block for 450ms (or just wait IF ANIMATION IS QUICK) ->
Repeat
Or is it because swallow soul, ele blockade and other skills have longer animations and my LA isn't registering? I remember reading something about swallow soul being bugged/harder to weave than other skills. I know that I have much less problems weaving impale, but it might be because rotation is way simpler during execute.
Anyway, good job buddy!XBox One - NA1 -
Rungar✭✭✭✭✭
✭sounds like its designed for macroing...
so they are shaking up the game everywhere when you just made it obvious that the only thing they need to fix is this. aka get rid of it.
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qbit✭✭✭✭✭Comes to forums saying he used a bot/macro program on the live server. Says don’t ban me for admitting it since it was just a target dummy. Lol.
That logic doesn’t work in most real life situations and probably won’t here. Good luck and, stay frosty out there.
It’s like being an “ethical hacker”. You’re still going to prison for the unauthorized “testing” of the target’s network security.0 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭BlackMadara wrote: »How does the relate the global cd of skills/spells?
It doesnt.... they literally posted all this unecessary fluff for the sake of.
As long as you are doing a single light attck and an ability within the GCD you are doing it right. Ignore anything related to block canceling as that has ZERO bearing on the GCD and when the game allows you to do a subsequent ability cast.
This is 2 mins of my life i will never get back....0 -
qbit✭✭✭✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »BlackMadara wrote: »How does the relate the global cd of skills/spells?
It doesnt.... they literally posted all this unecessary fluff for the sake of.
As long as you are doing a single light attck and an ability within the GCD you are doing it right. Ignore anything related to block canceling as that has ZERO bearing on the GCD and when the game allows you to do a subsequent ability cast.
This is 2 mins of my life i will never get back....
I appreciate the analysis (which could have omitted the mention of... automation.. to ensure consistent testing). But most people should be able to get a “feel” for weaving and the timing as it relates to lag and the situation. It’s practically second nature for me on the magsorc. I’m not perfect but it does require learning a feel for it. And that all intertwines with your bar switching and other animation canceling. I think it flows well.0 -
AcadianPaladin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So I grabbed my magplar healer and ran a mini dps check just weaving LA and Dark Flare. Got 14k. Then ran another simple rotation test weaving with Shards, Blockade, Purifying Light and Sweepsx3. Got 18.5k. Not sure what that means since she's a healer (lol, her lightning staff is traited with powered for example) but just wanted to share the data.PC NA(no Steam), PvE, mostly solo0 -
twofaced✭✭✭
It could be so, you should use cancelling at this point.Or is it because swallow soul, ele blockade and other skills have longer animations and my LA isn't registering? I remember reading something about swallow soul being bugged/harder to weave than other skills. I know that I have much less problems weaving impale, but it might be because rotation is way simpler during execute.
How were you able to spam a skill with 2.8k mana cost every 1.1s? Also my Dark Flare tooltip is 21k, and don't forget about other parameters like spell pen.AcadianPaladin wrote: »So I grabbed my magplar healer
I won't get upset much if something happened, my only concern is to fight against ignorance. And hopefully drop a hint to QA how they should test the balance.Good luck and, stay frosty out there.0 -
Emma_Overload✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm not entirely convinced you can maintain 1 skill and 1 light attack every 950 ms. I think it's going to average around 1100 ms over time if you want EVERY light attack to fire. But I only test with fire staff, so maybe other weapons are better.#CAREBEARMASTERRACE1 -
twofaced✭✭✭Emma_Overload wrote: »I'm not entirely convinced you can maintain 1 skill and 1 light attack every 950 ms. I think it's going to average around 1100 ms over time if you want EVERY light attack to fire. But I only test with fire staff, so maybe other weapons are better.
I tested with fire, healing and lightning staves. Sometimes 940ms wasn't enough, but 950ms rate is 100% for block cancelling.0 -
twofaced✭✭✭More precise info update: https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/9l27lg/framework_of_combat_system_weaving_timings/e73pqmf/
Two subsequent skills apply with 1 sec delay anyways. 400ms is just input delay to register first skill and put next skill into queue.0 -
AcadianPaladin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
How were you able to spam a skill with 2.8k mana cost every 1.1s? Also my Dark Flare tooltip is 21k, and don't forget about other parameters like spell pen.AcadianPaladin wrote: »So I grabbed my magplar healer
I said a 'mini' dps check (vs the mechanical robot fellow that talks) so not an extended sustain check. But I did have EleDrain and Channeled Focus going. Sure, the numbers are not impressive since she's spec'd for heals but the comparison of LA-Dark Flare to my 'normal' dps rotation convinced me to stay with what I've got.
PC NA(no Steam), PvE, mostly solo0 -
twofaced✭✭✭@AcadianPaladin Just got a message in guild Discord:Simply_Armin
@Twofacedd Have fun with leveling
btw. i tried that lightattack darkflare, only got 23k dps but still only spam 1 spell its really OP tbh0 -
BlackMadara✭✭✭✭After reading the reddit post, it seems the only true conclusions that you've come to are when it is best to input a command (seems better for macros) and that cast time abilities aren't worthless in a dps rotation (shown effective with ma weaving with uppercut in pvp, but considered useless for pve). You still have to adhere to the global cooldown of casting spells (~1s)... which you do not mention in your original post, which makes it impossible to fire two spells in less than 2 seconds, let alone 5 in less than 4 seconds as mentioned in OP. Unless you are counting the 950ms between la as the GCD. which I do not believe you are. Am I interpreting this correctly?0
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Donny_Vito✭✭✭✭✭
✭P.S. All tests were made on EU server with 130-160 ping with 40+ FPS. Magsorc and magDK skills were used. If net code is correctly written these parameters should not affect input events and timers so your timings should be the same.
The one big variable in the whole equation....If net code is correctly writtenEdited by Donny_Vito on October 4, 2018 12:11PM0 -
tactx✭✭✭✭✭I've read the original post numerous times and I don't think I'm comprehending.
So what exactly is being proposed that we do? Currently I weave LA between skills but haven't really messed with block. Should it be LA > SKILL > Block > SKILL > LA? or la, skill, .. I have no clue.
Someone explain this please.
Thanks!“No one's happiness but my own is in my power to achieve or to destroy.” - John Galt, Atlas Shrugged0 -
twofaced✭✭✭@BlackMadara
I mentioned 950ms delay for multiple skills combo. The point of my research may be several statements:
1) Cast time abilities are OP with no reason
2) You can't LA weave faster than 1 combo per second
3) You can apply two skills in less than 0,5 sec with block cancelling and use your fingers to run/jumpEdited by twofaced on October 4, 2018 12:51PM0 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I've read the original post numerous times and I don't think I'm comprehending.
So what exactly is being proposed that we do? Currently I weave LA between skills but haven't really messed with block. Should it be LA > SKILL > Block > SKILL > LA? or la, skill, .. I have no clue.
Someone explain this please.
Thanks!
Ignore everything here. This thread is mess.
You CANT cast skills more than every 1s (if its 950ms or 1100ms i dont know and i dont care)
And no matter how long the animation is you dont have to block cancel anything because all what block canceling does is cut the animation, not change any other limitations. You will basically always be able to cast next skill as quick with block canceling as without.3 -
Donny_Vito✭✭✭✭✭
✭I've read the original post numerous times and I don't think I'm comprehending.
So what exactly is being proposed that we do? Currently I weave LA between skills but haven't really messed with block. Should it be LA > SKILL > Block > SKILL > LA? or la, skill, .. I have no clue.
Someone explain this please.
Thanks!
Ignore everything here. This thread is mess.
You CANT cast skills more than every 1s (if its 950ms or 1100ms i dont know and i dont care)
And no matter how long the animation is you dont have to block cancel anything because all what block canceling does is cut the animation, not change any other limitations. You will basically always be able to cast next skill as quick with block canceling as without.
Can you provide evidence of this? The point of my question is that the OP is trying to provide testing evidence of his findings, and you're comment comes off as strictly an opinion and no information to back up why you stated it. Please elaborate more factual information regarding your comment.0 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Donny_Vito wrote: »I've read the original post numerous times and I don't think I'm comprehending.
So what exactly is being proposed that we do? Currently I weave LA between skills but haven't really messed with block. Should it be LA > SKILL > Block > SKILL > LA? or la, skill, .. I have no clue.
Someone explain this please.
Thanks!
Ignore everything here. This thread is mess.
You CANT cast skills more than every 1s (if its 950ms or 1100ms i dont know and i dont care)
And no matter how long the animation is you dont have to block cancel anything because all what block canceling does is cut the animation, not change any other limitations. You will basically always be able to cast next skill as quick with block canceling as without.
Can you provide evidence of this? The point of my question is that the OP is trying to provide testing evidence of his findings, and you're comment comes off as strictly an opinion and no information to back up why you stated it. Please elaborate more factual information regarding your comment.
What kind of evidence? Evidence of GCD the system put in place that makes it impossible to cast skills more than once every second?
//edit: I believe OP in his testing is misunderstanding being able to cast something and actually casting it. Thats the only explanation I have. You are able to 'cast' skills before GCD is over, making them wait in queue for GCD to be over.Edited by SodanTok on October 4, 2018 12:53PM0 -
twofaced✭✭✭Ignore everything here. This thread is mess.
You CANT cast skills more than every 1s (if its 950ms or 1100ms i dont know and i dont care)
And no matter how long the animation is you dont have to block cancel anything because all what block canceling does is cut the animation, not change any other limitations. You will basically always be able to cast next skill as quick with block canceling as without.
1) You can put two skills in a queue using cancelling. Other thing that second skill will apply only after a sec.
2) LA isn't register while animation is going, so for some long animation you have to block cancel to make rotation faster.
3) And everyone can check it with the simplest macro.0 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ignore everything here. This thread is mess.
You CANT cast skills more than every 1s (if its 950ms or 1100ms i dont know and i dont care)
And no matter how long the animation is you dont have to block cancel anything because all what block canceling does is cut the animation, not change any other limitations. You will basically always be able to cast next skill as quick with block canceling as without.
1) You can put two skills in a queue using cancelling. Other thing that second skill will apply only after a sec.
2) LA isn't register while animation is going, so for some long animation you have to block cancel to make rotation faster.
3) And everyone can check it with the simplest macro.
It would help if you showed evidence of combat log where the abilities you are casting with such low delay are actually hitting target less than every second
Or your cast time abilities that are apparently not reducing anything, it would help to see how you are light attacking every second between them
And I dont need macro to be able to use my fingers faster than every 1s yet I am unable to cast skill faster than every second... one has to wonder what are you actually testing.Edited by SodanTok on October 4, 2018 1:03PM0 -
twofaced✭✭✭@SodanTok again. I was testing possibility of casting skills as fast as possible. But there is no point to do so if you using LA. But I see the reason to LA->Familiar->Block->Prey very fast and run further for other doings.
Edited:
Exactly what I was saying.You are able to 'cast' skills before GCD is over, making them wait in queue for GCD to be over.Edited by twofaced on October 4, 2018 1:13PM0 -
BlackMadara✭✭✭✭Ignore everything here. This thread is mess.
You CANT cast skills more than every 1s (if its 950ms or 1100ms i dont know and i dont care)
And no matter how long the animation is you dont have to block cancel anything because all what block canceling does is cut the animation, not change any other limitations. You will basically always be able to cast next skill as quick with block canceling as without.
1) You can put two skills in a queue using cancelling. Other thing that second skill will apply only after a sec.
2) LA isn't register while animation is going, so for some long animation you have to block cancel to make rotation faster.
3) And everyone can check it with the simplest macro.
It would help if you showed evidence of combat log where the abilities you are casting with such low delay are actually hitting target less than every second Or your cast time abilities that are apparently not reducing anything, it would help to see how you are light attacking every second between them
And I dont need macro to be able to use my fingers faster than every 1s yet I am unable to cast skill faster than every second... one has to wonder what are you actually testing.
He is communicating poorly. He says you can place 2 abilities "in queue" in .5s not that they ate actually cast/fired every .5s. Also block cancelling is useful for slower animations (engulfing flames for example)0 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭SodanTok again. I was testing possibility of casting skills as fast as possible. But there is no point to do so if you using LA. But I see the reason to LA->Familiar->Block->Prey very fast and run further for other doings.
I am not talking about light attacks either. You simply cant execute 2 abilities faster than 1s (or 950ms or whatever). But the other post explains it too, you are communicating poorly something that is simply well known. You can queue skills earlier by canceling animation. Which will result in the INPUT being received earlier than 1s, but the skill will still fire after the GCD is done resulting in exactly.... zero advantage.
Edited by SodanTok on October 4, 2018 1:15PM0
