if your nerfing speed, nerf snares as well

Wing

right now its a matter of extremes.

you have people either at 100% movement and snare immune

OR

your stuck in heavy snares and cannot move.


now I understand that a lot of skill are not working great because of the speed we can currently hit, and I understand the idea of reducing that cap a bit, fine. however, being constantly snared is not fun, a lot of skills just have a tacked on snare of some kind, once again, being snared is not fun.

if your going to cull move speed, cull all the snares too

adopt a major minor system for snares, and have them be 10% and 30% respectively (counter expedition) or something, have major snares only last for a few seconds (3-4ish like major exp now) and minor can last a bit longer.


I don't mind not being sonic levels fast, but being constantly slow sucks.

perhaps adding snare and immobilize immunities like the CC immunity would be a nice option, where once you get snared or cleanse it you are immune for a few seconds.

TLDR, snares suck, and are not fun, not being fast is fine if we also don't have to be wicked slow all the time.

weedgenius

The #1 reason why I don't have fun in PvP, especially in battlegrounds, is because I'm almost constantly snared or immobilized. Not because people are moving too fast.

Crixus8000

One thing I would love so much is for them to finally adress the dumb bug that causes me to be snared/ cc'd even with immunity and the stupid poisons just snaring me in immunity because they ignore it for some reason. Now with nerfs to forward momentum and upcoming nerfs to speed pots 1vx or any outnumbered play is going to be so much harder. I hate that they keep nerfing solo play.

Strider__Roshin

70% snares shouldn't exist.

Nox_Noir

This here hits the nail on the head OP.
Those damn snares and CC have been my Nr.1 dislike in the game from day one. I kept playing cos there was enough other fun stuff, but been hoping through all this time that snares would get reduced some day. Swift was one really nice thing summerset brought to make the snare-mania a little bit more bearable. Guess we're going back to turtle-simulator...

Nicalas

This guy gets it.

But once again the bad players win.

Players are not penalized for spamming Snares, roots, immobilization's.

Players are penalized for using skills that break or avoid these skills with increasing costs.

These game mechanics need to be brought in line with each other.

All snares, roots or immobilization's should incur the same resource draining penalties as roll dodge.

This is the only way to effectively punish players who abuse these skills.

Wing

glad to see others agree

GreenHere

Daus wrote: »

70% snares shouldn't exist.

@Daus , what do you think the maximum snare in the game should be, out of curiosity? Even if we had a Major/Minor Snare implemented, what do you think the max snare should be for things like the DK Ash Cloud or Razor Caltrops etc.?

Strider__Roshin

GreenHere wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

70% snares shouldn't exist.

@Daus , what do you think the maximum snare in the game should be, out of curiosity? Even if we had a Major/Minor Snare implemented, what do you think the max snare should be for things like the DK Ash Cloud or Razor Caltrops etc.?

Minor and Major Defile is sightly stronger than Minor and Major Mending so I think the same should be done with the relationship between snares and expedition. Therefore I would suggest 20% and 40% respectively.

weg0

I think 15% and 35% would be better

GreenHere

Daus wrote: »

GreenHere wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

70% snares shouldn't exist.

@Daus , what do you think the maximum snare in the game should be, out of curiosity? Even if we had a Major/Minor Snare implemented, what do you think the max snare should be for things like the DK Ash Cloud or Razor Caltrops etc.?

Minor and Major Defile is sightly stronger than Minor and Major Mending so I think the same should be done with the relationship between snares and expedition. Therefore I would suggest 20% and 40% respectively.

Ya know what, I think that might just work. It'd be nice if we could give such a system of speed buffs/debuffs a try. If only we could test such things on some kind of public testing server or something...

Crixus8000

I don't think the % of snare matters at a certain point though, like being slowed 30% isn't really different to being slowed 70% if your outnumbered. You always need to remove the snare to survive.

GreenHere

Crixus8000 wrote: »

I don't think the % of snare matters at a certain point though, like being slowed 30% isn't really different to being slowed 70% if your outnumbered. You always need to remove the snare to survive.

Disagree.

The difference between 15% from many low tier snares and ~90% from mechanics like holding the booger juice too long in the Xal Nur fight (in Mazzatun) is dramatic. Similarly, the 70% snares that can be applied by players in PvP are markedly more effective than the lighter ones that can almost be entirely ignored.

Surely there are certain "happy medium" numbers where snares are effective without totally breaking combat or dominating a fight. Seems like ZOS is moving away from infinite immunities being so easy to obtain (a GOOD thing, imo), so the actual performance of snares is very relevant! Now more than ever, we should be figuring it out.

Crixus8000

I mean sure in certain situations the lower snares don't affect you but when I'm doing 1vx if I leave even a weak snare up it's going to make using los much more difficult, allow the enemy to catch/ target me easier and then I'm going to be taking much more damage.

Rianai

Try playing without snare removal (not everyone has that luxury) and you will see that snare potency does matter

GreenHere

Crixus8000 wrote: »

I mean sure in certain situations the lower snares don't affect you but when I'm doing 1vx if I leave even a weak snare up it's going to make using los much more difficult, allow the enemy to catch/ target me easier and then I'm going to be taking much more damage.

That's the point of snares, though :P

Having preemptive immunity to being snared at 100% uptime means there's no soft counter to you running around unchecked at stupid-fast speeds. I have to wait til you're not hard CC immune, then spend resources to fear/stun/knock you around. Then you get right back up and zip around all you like again. But as it stands, people can run around with 100% counter to snares and immobilizations of all kinds, WHILE moving at well above normal sprinting speeds without actually sprinting.

Snares serve an important role, imo. They counter speed buffs. They just need to be balanced in relation to the landscape of the speed that we currently have. Too much snare immunity or too strong/weak snares ruin that balance, and ruin their role in ESO's combat.

Crixus8000

Rianai wrote: »

Try playing without snare removal (not everyone has that luxury) and you will see that snare potency does matter

Lol good point ^^

GreenHere wrote: »

That's the point of snares, though :P

Having preemptive immunity to being snared at 100% uptime means there's no soft counter to you running around unchecked at stupid-fast speeds. I have to wait til you're not hard CC immune, then spend resources to fear/stun/knock you around. Then you get right back up and zip around all you like again. But as it stands, people can run around with 100% counter to snares and immobilizations of all kinds, WHILE moving at well above normal sprinting speeds without actually sprinting.

Snares serve an important role, imo. They counter speed buffs. They just need to be balanced in relation to the landscape of the speed that we currently have. Too much snare immunity or too strong/weak snares ruin that balance, and ruin their role in ESO's combat.

I think forward momentum is too strong, and the speed some people can reach is stupid. But at the same time as a solo stamsorc any snare basically means death if I just leave it up, Pvp has an insane amount of damage right now, bleeds, everyone running proc sets ect that when your fighting like 4+ people you need to be able to move around.

I do hate the bugs snares have though. Even with snare immunity I get snared over and over.

Idk I think if stand your ground type playstyle was actually viable there would be less people using such speeds, and less complaining about it being nerfed. I don't use swift, I don't mind a fw nerf, but combine that with speed pots getting nerfed and solo play for many will be near impossible with beign so slow and having snares up all the time.

moosegod

I don't think they had to hit major expedition like they did. 5 seconds to 4? Why bother. Forward momentum was too strong for it's cost. Major buff, a HoT, and absurdly long snare immunity was too much. Shuffle only has one major buff and half the immunity for nearly twice the cost. Reduce FM immunity and reduce shuffle cost for increased balance between the abilities.

BlackLabel

I just wish they would have buffed shuffle instead of nerfing forward momentum...we need longer snare immunities

GlorphNoldorin

What exactly is too strong is the issue. With all the snares in the game...forward momentum is one of the only counters.....but I would suggest that speed is the root of the problem. Make a cap on speed in cyrodil with battle leveling ....1,5x or whatever......job done.

As it is...PVE will take a hit with these speed changes...especially for fights like Marches HM etc

Wing

shuffle does need to be at least 4 seconds

Savos_Saren

So with the proposed decrease to snares/immobilizers- is ZOS going to increase the damage of DKs? Considering they have to rely on snares/immobilizers in order to apply enough DOT pressure or attack (because they're primarily a melee class)?

I'm all about increasing DK damage to bring it up on par with NBs and Sorcs!

usmcjdking

Snares are fine.

The true issue behind immobilizes/snares is simply how much undodgeable/unmitigatable garbage is in this game.

Wing

Savos_Saren wrote: »

So with the proposed decrease to snares/immobilizers- is ZOS going to increase the damage of DKs? Considering they have to rely on snares/immobilizers in order to apply enough DOT pressure or attack (because they're primarily a melee class)?

I'm all about increasing DK damage to bring it up on par with NBs and Sorcs!

personally I would increase the damage, if up front damage seems to scary then various damage over times.

I have always felt the point of DK's was to lack range and speed, but not be slow and be lethal within its range, like this constantly moving threat.

except what we got was we lack range and speed. . .and that's it.

MehrunesFlagon

Wing wrote: »

right now its a matter of extremes.

you have people either at 100% movement and snare immune

OR

your stuck in heavy snares and cannot move.


now I understand that a lot of skill are not working great because of the speed we can currently hit, and I understand the idea of reducing that cap a bit, fine. however, being constantly snared is not fun, a lot of skills just have a tacked on snare of some kind, once again, being snared is not fun.

if your going to cull move speed, cull all the snares too

adopt a major minor system for snares, and have them be 10% and 30% respectively (counter expedition) or something, have major snares only last for a few seconds (3-4ish like major exp now) and minor can last a bit longer.


I don't mind not being sonic levels fast, but being constantly slow sucks.

perhaps adding snare and immobilize immunities like the CC immunity would be a nice option, where once you get snared or cleanse it you are immune for a few seconds.

TLDR, snares suck, and are not fun, not being fast is fine if we also don't have to be wicked slow all the time.

Perhaps instead of getting rid of the damage off of certain skills(refreshing path.).They should remove the cc effects from damage skills that have it attached to them.

katorga

The other aspect to this is that there is NO cost to keep snares up 100% of the time. They are attached to skills you will spam anyway. ZOS has essentially doubled the cost of counter play to snares. Root and snare immunity periods are well below CC immunity periods, with FM providing the only immunity close to CC immunity time.

Imagine this game if CC immunity was 2-4 seconds for hard CC. No one would play.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Next patch, light armor is getting a new passive, Grace. The passive reduces the effectiveness of snares applied to you by 1/2/4% per piece of Light Armor worn, and reduces the cost of Sprint by 1/2/3% per piece of Light Armor worn. Since the way the game works is with percentage reductions of snares, they are are subtractive, meaning that if you use at least 5 light are, all snares are going to be -20% lower. For example, if you get hit by a snare that is 70%, it will only snare you for 50%. This will help a lot.

OneKhajiitCrimeWave

I think overall the issue isn't just the snares, but access to snare removal (including immobilizes in this).

If you are stam you have access to 2 snare removals in Forward Momentum and Shuffle. One is much more common than the other because of how useful it is.

Mag has little options in this outside of running a 2H back bar.

MagDK's/DK's in general got given a snare removal added to wings and it made a huge difference to us.
Situations that used to mean "run vamp and mist or dead" now have counterplay without having to be vamp.

My suggestion is two-fold.

1. We create a minor snare and major snare as has been said in here (a solid idea as long as the snare levels are set right) and make it so there is some form of an immunity phase after it. Even if that immunity is 3 seconds, it's better than now.
2. We give each class or playstyle some form of access to snare removal. It could be in a "world" skill line like where one morph costs magicka and the other stamina. Set a reasonable cost on it so that there is counterplay to the snares and a reasonable immunity.

Not sure how others would feel on it but having snare removal linked to specific weapons or armor etc and basically excluding groups from it without running a 2H annoys me.

lucky_Sage

Nicalas wrote: »

This guy gets it.

But once again the bad players win.

Players are not penalized for spamming Snares, roots, immobilization's.

Players are penalized for using skills that break or avoid these skills with increasing costs.

These game mechanics need to be brought in line with each other.

All snares, roots or immobilization's should incur the same resource draining penalties as roll dodge.

This is the only way to effectively punish players who abuse these skills.

Yeah because roots are so strong the majority of players don't run snare/root immune I mean there is a reason alot of Magdks stoped running talons. The only people who I can root and be effected by it is magsorc and magden. All Stam it's usless and magblade can just cloak while rooted Magdk has wings and Templars can purge, and really Sorcs can streak and get distance while rooted so all classes have some sort of counter to roots