A solution to Swift

MajBludd

Also another problem that causes nerfs is cp. Cp is a *** progression system. Instead of fixing that they nerf sets, skills, traits etc to try to nerf power creep.

Morgul667

6% speed bonus in gold...

Another trait has become useless

Jeremy

GreenHere wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Saucy_Jack wrote: »

I frankly don't know why they're nerfing swift. If someone is wearing sets that boost speed, with traits that boost speed, then they are automatically sacrificing set slots and trait slots that could have been put towards something else, most likely DPS.

If the classes tend to be niches (temps heal, DKs tank, sorcs DPS, etc.) I don't know why people can't keep the opportunity to build their own gear niches as well - in this case, a speed niche.

Agreed.

Why does everything that might frustrate a blood thirsty PvPer from zerging people to death have to be nerfed?

Anyone built for speed should be hard to catch. That's kinda the purpose. Leave swift alone. It comes with real and significant sacrifices.

While I do not want to see Swift nerfed, I definitely agree that something needs to be done about the people moving so fast in PvP. Melee range fights against someone who's using all available speed boosts is silly level broken. It's honestly kind of funny how badly combat is ruined by these over-the-top speed builds. It really highlights some problems with the game and other mechanics.

BUT, as I've argued in this thread and elsewhere, Swift itself isn't the issue; just being able to get so high in speed is. They have the right idea bringing us down in max speed, but as usual they went about fixing it in the wrong way. You're right in that they're making the game less interesting and fun in (essentially) killing Swift as a trait.

How is combat broken by these over-the-top speed builds?

It'd help me understand your argument more if I actually knew the details as to why you say that.

GreenHere

Jeremy wrote: »

GreenHere wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Saucy_Jack wrote: »

I frankly don't know why they're nerfing swift. If someone is wearing sets that boost speed, with traits that boost speed, then they are automatically sacrificing set slots and trait slots that could have been put towards something else, most likely DPS.

If the classes tend to be niches (temps heal, DKs tank, sorcs DPS, etc.) I don't know why people can't keep the opportunity to build their own gear niches as well - in this case, a speed niche.

Agreed.

Why does everything that might frustrate a blood thirsty PvPer from zerging people to death have to be nerfed?

Anyone built for speed should be hard to catch. That's kinda the purpose. Leave swift alone. It comes with real and significant sacrifices.

While I do not want to see Swift nerfed, I definitely agree that something needs to be done about the people moving so fast in PvP. Melee range fights against someone who's using all available speed boosts is silly level broken. It's honestly kind of funny how badly combat is ruined by these over-the-top speed builds. It really highlights some problems with the game and other mechanics.

BUT, as I've argued in this thread and elsewhere, Swift itself isn't the issue; just being able to get so high in speed is. They have the right idea bringing us down in max speed, but as usual they went about fixing it in the wrong way. You're right in that they're making the game less interesting and fun in (essentially) killing Swift as a trait.

How is combat broken by these over-the-top speed builds?

It'd help me understand your argument more if I actually knew the details as to why you say that.

Thanks for asking, that's a more than fair question.

The problem is like this; a player can stack so many sources of movement speed increases that they move faster than they can be detected as a viable target by melee abilities, even though they're literally right in front of you... under your reticle... <2 meters away from you. And even IF you manage to target them long enough to be able to activate a skill like Twin Slashes, for instance (an instant cast, melee ability), you can spend your resources and GCD to activate the skill yet it simply doesn't land because the target is behind you or out of range by the time the server gets the message to initiate the attack. That's how fast people are covering ground now -- while in active combat with you, not Sprinting!

And none of that even counts the inherent issue that an enemy can simply move faster than you can move your camera around to target them, unless you play at rather high sensitivity. Which is simply not an option for a great many people.

Worth noting, too: I completely spaced out and forgot about the Steed mundus stone in my original posts. So players are able to achieve even higher speeds than I've previously mentioned if they're really going for it.

Jeremy

GreenHere wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

GreenHere wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Saucy_Jack wrote: »

I frankly don't know why they're nerfing swift. If someone is wearing sets that boost speed, with traits that boost speed, then they are automatically sacrificing set slots and trait slots that could have been put towards something else, most likely DPS.

If the classes tend to be niches (temps heal, DKs tank, sorcs DPS, etc.) I don't know why people can't keep the opportunity to build their own gear niches as well - in this case, a speed niche.

Agreed.

Why does everything that might frustrate a blood thirsty PvPer from zerging people to death have to be nerfed?

Anyone built for speed should be hard to catch. That's kinda the purpose. Leave swift alone. It comes with real and significant sacrifices.

While I do not want to see Swift nerfed, I definitely agree that something needs to be done about the people moving so fast in PvP. Melee range fights against someone who's using all available speed boosts is silly level broken. It's honestly kind of funny how badly combat is ruined by these over-the-top speed builds. It really highlights some problems with the game and other mechanics.

BUT, as I've argued in this thread and elsewhere, Swift itself isn't the issue; just being able to get so high in speed is. They have the right idea bringing us down in max speed, but as usual they went about fixing it in the wrong way. You're right in that they're making the game less interesting and fun in (essentially) killing Swift as a trait.

How is combat broken by these over-the-top speed builds?

It'd help me understand your argument more if I actually knew the details as to why you say that.

Thanks for asking, that's a more than fair question.

The problem is like this; a player can stack so many sources of movement speed increases that they move faster than they can be detected as a viable target by melee abilities, even though they're literally right in front of you... under your reticle... <2 meters away from you. And even IF you manage to target them long enough to be able to activate a skill like Twin Slashes, for instance (an instant cast, melee ability), you can spend your resources and GCD to activate the skill yet it simply doesn't land because the target is behind you or out of range by the time the server gets the message to initiate the attack. That's how fast people are covering ground now -- while in active combat with you, not Sprinting!

And none of that even counts the inherent issue that an enemy can simply move faster than you can move your camera around to target them, unless you play at rather high sensitivity. Which is simply not an option for a great many people.

Worth noting, too: I completely spaced out and forgot about the Steed mundus stone in my original posts. So players are able to achieve even higher speeds than I've previously mentioned if they're really going for it.

I see. So essentially it's preventing you from being able to target your opponent due to them escaping the hit box of your abilities before the server is able to read your attack?

But I've been experiencing this for years in ESO, long before the swift trait was introduced. So I'm not sure if move speed is really to blame for that. I think that' just a server problem - and one of the reasons I prefer ranged attacks in PvP. But thanks for explaining your position nonetheless.

GreenHere

Jeremy wrote: »

GreenHere wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

GreenHere wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Saucy_Jack wrote: »

I frankly don't know why they're nerfing swift. If someone is wearing sets that boost speed, with traits that boost speed, then they are automatically sacrificing set slots and trait slots that could have been put towards something else, most likely DPS.

If the classes tend to be niches (temps heal, DKs tank, sorcs DPS, etc.) I don't know why people can't keep the opportunity to build their own gear niches as well - in this case, a speed niche.

Agreed.

Why does everything that might frustrate a blood thirsty PvPer from zerging people to death have to be nerfed?

Anyone built for speed should be hard to catch. That's kinda the purpose. Leave swift alone. It comes with real and significant sacrifices.

While I do not want to see Swift nerfed, I definitely agree that something needs to be done about the people moving so fast in PvP. Melee range fights against someone who's using all available speed boosts is silly level broken. It's honestly kind of funny how badly combat is ruined by these over-the-top speed builds. It really highlights some problems with the game and other mechanics.

BUT, as I've argued in this thread and elsewhere, Swift itself isn't the issue; just being able to get so high in speed is. They have the right idea bringing us down in max speed, but as usual they went about fixing it in the wrong way. You're right in that they're making the game less interesting and fun in (essentially) killing Swift as a trait.

How is combat broken by these over-the-top speed builds?

It'd help me understand your argument more if I actually knew the details as to why you say that.

Thanks for asking, that's a more than fair question.

The problem is like this; a player can stack so many sources of movement speed increases that they move faster than they can be detected as a viable target by melee abilities, even though they're literally right in front of you... under your reticle... <2 meters away from you. And even IF you manage to target them long enough to be able to activate a skill like Twin Slashes, for instance (an instant cast, melee ability), you can spend your resources and GCD to activate the skill yet it simply doesn't land because the target is behind you or out of range by the time the server gets the message to initiate the attack. That's how fast people are covering ground now -- while in active combat with you, not Sprinting!

And none of that even counts the inherent issue that an enemy can simply move faster than you can move your camera around to target them, unless you play at rather high sensitivity. Which is simply not an option for a great many people.

Worth noting, too: I completely spaced out and forgot about the Steed mundus stone in my original posts. So players are able to achieve even higher speeds than I've previously mentioned if they're really going for it.

I see. So essentially it's preventing you from being able to target your opponent due to them escaping the hit box of your abilities before the server is able to read your attack?

But I've been experiencing this for years in ESO, long before the swift trait was introduced. So I'm not sure if move speed is really to blame for that. I think that' just a server problem - and one of the reasons I prefer ranged attacks in PvP. But thanks for explaining your position nonetheless.

Too true, it's an inherent problem with the game at large. The super speed stacking that Swift brought about just exacerbated the issue to a point where ZOS is bringing the hammer down.

And that's where I start to have the issue. Swift is an interesting trait (as it is on Live, anyway), that I feel deserves its place without being smashed into uselessness. It's a good trait, but requires you to sacrifice other good stats to get it -- which is the way it should be. Meaningful choices with meaningful tradeoffs. There are better ways to address the speed problem.

I'm holding onto the razor thin hope that they may reconsider their Swift changes on the PTS if enough reason is weighed into the discussion.

GreenHere

Wollust wrote: »

Swift needed a nerf. It was overperforming. Nothing else. No idea why they decided to go full crazy on everything that has Major Expedition in it.

@Wollust , in another thread you said the above, and I disagree that nerfing Swift was the solution. Could I invite you to take a look at the solution I propose in the OP of this thread?

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Jeremy wrote: »

Saucy_Jack wrote: »

I frankly don't know why they're nerfing swift. If someone is wearing sets that boost speed, with traits that boost speed, then they are automatically sacrificing set slots and trait slots that could have been put towards something else, most likely DPS.

If the classes tend to be niches (temps heal, DKs tank, sorcs DPS, etc.) I don't know why people can't keep the opportunity to build their own gear niches as well - in this case, a speed niche.

Agreed.

Why does everything that might frustrate a blood thirsty PvPer from zerging people to death have to be nerfed?

Anyone built for speed should be hard to catch. That's kinda the purpose. Leave swift alone. It comes with real and significant sacrifices.

If it was simply a matter of being hard to catch, that would be one thing. The problem is that the tradeoff you mentioned is really not much of a sacrifice, especially for stam that tend to spec so much into weapon damage and arent relient on 40k stam pools. There is nothing nich about swift in cyrodiil. An absurd chunk of the playerbase is effectively at the speed cap thanks to swift.

Now I am not sure this nerf is they best way to handle it because the practical effect is that if these go live, stam will still be able to get to the cap without too much issue, but magic wont be able to. I think the better solution is to look at the speed cap itself, and perhaps looking into a non-sprint soft cap, as opposed to huge nerfs, but that said, it's hard to look at the current state of swift PVP and not see a problem.

I think another solution would be to look at sprint reduction modifiers, and the cost of sprint. What if it cost significantly more to sprint as you got closer to the cap? Might actually serve as a deterrent. Just for fun on live, I made a mag sorc build that back bars a prisoner resto staff and runs 3 swift traits. I can sprint at the speed cap almost infinitely with the cost reduction from the set and CP. My damage kinda blows, but I am fast AF. I can reset fights nearly as well as my stamblade (just dont hit nearly as hard, haha).