Is damage mitigation more important than ever?

keevil111

I'm curious about your thoughts on shield proc sets and other forms of damage mitigation from a PVE perspective. For example:

Combat Physician
(2 items) Adds 1096 Max Magicka
(3 items) Adds 833 Spell Critical
(4 items) Adds 833 Spell Critical
(5 items) Critically Healing an ally grants them a 8195 Damage Shield for 8 seconds. This effect has a cooldown of 6 seconds

Brands of the Imperium
(2 items) Adds 1206 Max Health
(3 items) Adds 1206 Max Health
(4 items) Adds 4% Healing Taken
(5 items) When you take damage, you have a 10% chance to grant you and your allies within 8 meters a damage shield that absorbs 12040 damage for 6 seconds. This effect can occur once every 15 seconds

Will there be a higher demand for sets like these in Murkmire? I would think yes to a degree because these shields take on your resistances. Plus PVE enemies do not crit if IIRF. Will the shields take on your crit resistance I wonder...? Tell me what you think.

paulsimonps

No. Those Shields don't hit often enough. A Tank with bone shield and high HP or that and be a DK with Igneous and you will give far more defense to the team than those sets. More HP would be better than Imperium.

keevil111

Good point. What about Combat physician from a healing perspective? Maybe not endgame BiS, but a good set for mitigating?

RavenSworn

The problem with Imperium is its 8m radius effect. That should have been taken away which will then open up this set for consideration within trials and dlc dungeons.

Bone shield is nice but the synergy requires a specific target which sometimes is missed by the other players. Also, bone shield runs better with healers than tanks since the secondary effect is 100-110% health shield, which on a tank is just too good to pass up.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Not in good groups. Nothing is really going to change for them. Even though shield value will be a touch lower, the strength will actually be higher because as stated, nothing crits in PVE. Magic characters will still slot an oh crap button, which will be nearly as effective as before. Raids will still stack as much stamina as possible because the damage is better. Healers will still run sets to buff damage.

What started out as a plan to make healers not feel sad and lonely in PVE has turned into nothing more than a sorc nerf in PVP. I am surprised that I am surprised...

Crafts_Many_Boxes

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Not in good groups. Nothing is really going to change for them. Even though shield value will be a touch lower, the strength will actually be higher because as stated, nothing crits in PVE. Magic characters will still slot an oh crap button, which will be nearly as effective as before. Raids will still stack as much stamina as possible because the damage is better. Healers will still run sets to buff damage.

What started out as a plan to make healers not feel sad and lonely in PVE has turned into nothing more than a sorc nerf in PVP. I am surprised that I am surprised...

"Nearly as effective"?

For a magsorc who isn't stacking resistances, with 18k health, they'll generate a shield value of something like 7.2k assuming bastion doesn't work anymore. Maybe it'll be 30% more effective than current shields? Maybe? Even that's a stretch IMO, but let's bump that up to 1.3 x 7.2 = 9.4k for an "effective shield value" to give us something to compare to live shields.

Current magsorcs can get 23-24k shields no problem, 24/9.4 = roughly 40%. So sorc shields have been nerfed by something like 60%, assuming bastion really won't work anymore. For harness magicka users, I guess it'd be more like a 40-50% nerf. Still huge, still not "nearly as effective."

As for my opinion on shield proc sets, they're 100% going to be more popular now. I'm super glad I've been saving up imperium for a while, but it's bittersweet because a 12k shield would mean my toon has to have 30k health to get the full benefit. Still, it opens up some tanking possibilities, so I guess there is some good to come out of this stinking pile of nerfs called an update.

Danksta

keevil111 wrote: »

Good point. What about Combat physician from a healing perspective? Maybe not endgame BiS, but a good set for mitigating?

Hits one ally every 6 seconds.

keevil111

Danksta wrote: »

Hits one ally every 6 seconds.

LOL, was just an example. I'm just curious as to whether magicka users, or anybody, in general will be more grateful to receive shielding from outside of their own skillset. It used to be a thing. Remember Trinimac's Valor?

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Not in good groups. Nothing is really going to change for them. Even though shield value will be a touch lower, the strength will actually be higher because as stated, nothing crits in PVE. Magic characters will still slot an oh crap button, which will be nearly as effective as before. Raids will still stack as much stamina as possible because the damage is better. Healers will still run sets to buff damage.

What started out as a plan to make healers not feel sad and lonely in PVE has turned into nothing more than a sorc nerf in PVP. I am surprised that I am surprised...

"Nearly as effective"?

For a magsorc who isn't stacking resistances, with 18k health, they'll generate a shield value of something like 7.2k assuming bastion doesn't work anymore. Maybe it'll be 30% more effective than current shields? Maybe? Even that's a stretch IMO, but let's bump that up to 1.3 x 7.2 = 9.4k for an "effective shield value" to give us something to compare to live shields.

Current magsorcs can get 23-24k shields no problem, 24/9.4 = roughly 40%. So sorc shields have been nerfed by something like 60%, assuming bastion really won't work anymore. For harness magicka users, I guess it'd be more like a 40-50% nerf. Still huge, still not "nearly as effective."

As for my opinion on shield proc sets, they're 100% going to be more popular now. I'm super glad I've been saving up imperium for a while, but it's bittersweet because a 12k shield would mean my toon has to have 30k health to get the full benefit. Still, it opens up some tanking possibilities, so I guess there is some good to come out of this stinking pile of nerfs called an update.

If you need a 20k shield in PVE, you have a serious L2P issue. Sorc shields in PVE are overkill at the moment. This is evident as sorc shields dont get used in competitive end game PVP because sorcs dont get used in competitive PVE (except for a backup healer). Harness is plenty now and will be plenty next patch.

I am not saying its not technically a nerf, but its an irrelevant nerf for most of the end game community. As to the post, well again, I dont think these sets are going to gain in popularity. At the cap is at the cap, and I dont see DPS in most groups abandoning shields completely. Shields will still be an effective oh crap button, and healers will run support sets to boost damage.

idk

keevil111 wrote: »

Good point. What about Combat physician from a healing perspective? Maybe not endgame BiS, but a good set for mitigating?

Combat physician is not a good set. Procs on one person unless they changed it. It does not necessarily proc when it is needed.

vovus69

Due to a lot of strange mechanics in the game shields 15k-20k are a MUST in pve.
Last example - vBC1 - King Rilis has someting like soul damage ability with NO TELEGRAPH, which IGNORES the taunt and this ability has 22k damage one shot. How do you suppose to survive if normally you have 18k-19k HP and no shield?
And this is just off top of my head. There are a lot of examples like this. zos is stupid enough and cannot introduce smart
battle mechanics, so they introduced a lot of one shot abilities among the bosses in vet dungeons and trials. If they want to remove the shields - they should redesign all vet dungeons and trials. I highly doubt that they will do this.

So, as I said in other thread - DO NOT touch PVE if you don't know it. Play your pvp.

-vovus

keevil111

So even with whatever nerfs/buffs this patch, playstyle and gear setup will remain essentially the same? Talking vet 4 man and trials.

So maybe this update won't be as game breaking as some would make it seem...

Damage mitigation is my favorite playstyle for tanking and healing. ESO just makes in not viable in high end content. Of course it can be be done, but it's not ideal. I long for the day when DPS is no longer king, but solid group play and support/mitigation will rule the endgame!

Oakmontowls_ESO

vovus69 wrote: »

Due to a lot of strange mechanics in the game shields 15k-20k are a MUST in pve.
Last example - vBC1 - King Rilis has someting like soul damage ability with NO TELEGRAPH, which IGNORES the taunt and this ability has 22k damage one shot. How do you suppose to survive if normally you have 18k-19k HP and no shield?
And this is just off top of my head. There are a lot of examples like this. zos is stupid enough and cannot introduce smart
battle mechanics, so they introduced a lot of one shot abilities among the bosses in vet dungeons and trials. If they want to remove the shields - they should redesign all vet dungeons and trials. I highly doubt that they will do this.

So, as I said in other thread - DO NOT touch PVE if you don't know it. Play your pvp.

-vovus

Block or roll dodge when you see the projectile.

paulsimonps

vovus69 wrote: »

Due to a lot of strange mechanics in the game shields 15k-20k are a MUST in pve.
Last example - vBC1 - King Rilis has someting like soul damage ability with NO TELEGRAPH, which IGNORES the taunt and this ability has 22k damage one shot. How do you suppose to survive if normally you have 18k-19k HP and no shield?
And this is just off top of my head. There are a lot of examples like this. zos is stupid enough and cannot introduce smart
battle mechanics, so they introduced a lot of one shot abilities among the bosses in vet dungeons and trials. If they want to remove the shields - they should redesign all vet dungeons and trials. I highly doubt that they will do this.

So, as I said in other thread - DO NOT touch PVE if you don't know it. Play your pvp.

-vovus

@vovus69
Going by your example, its a large projectile that is actually pretty easy to dodge/block, he turns away from the tank to do it. If you see him about to turn dodge/block just in case it hits you. Also your example says it deals 22k, most DPSs have 17-19k HP. Even with a 40% Max HP Shield that would give you 6800-7600 shield. 17000+6800=23800. Lo and behold 23.8K>22K, you will survive. I know its just one of many instances like this, but really I think we will be ok. Add some more resistance to the shields than what we are used to, don't forget Minor Ward/Resolve from Combat Prayer and possible a Major one from either yourself or a Warden and I think you are good. Might even get a Igneous or a Bone Shield on top of your own, even if they just got nerfed slightly today. If a 15-20k Damage shield was such a must then how did Stam characters ever survive the one shots? They don't have that much extra resistance nor did they have more health, some even had less health.

I know and agree that some mechanics are garbage but lets not fool ourselves into thinking that the shield is/was the only way to possibly survive and that it was a must have.

db0ssman

I've actually run Combat Physician on my main for a pretty long time. The main reason is that all that extra crit works really well with a NB healer. The shield itself isn't that useful like most people have pointed out. It only effects 1 person at a time and that 6 second counter doesn't start until the last shield is down. That means if it procs on a dps who isn't taking much damage, it won't proc again for 14 seconds. This actually works a little better if you conceptualize it as a free 8k heal that can proc every 8 to 14 seconds. In that sense, it can be useful since even though it won't necessarily proc to the person taking the most damage, they are the ones most likely to get the first crit heal when the shield is available. It is reliable enough for an off meta build like NB which puts out a ton of small heals, but is probably useless for a meta build like templar who is only putting out relatively few large heals (and probably doesn't want to rely on the rng that is crits).

Damage mitigation is, in theory, very useful in higher level content where bringing 1 second lethal damage to below lethal could save people where they would otherwise die. In practice, however, there is usually such a wide gap between something doing 1 sec lethal and the player's health that most mitigation won't stop them from dying. If a dps with 17k health is about to take a one shot with 45k to the face, you'd have to find a way to mitigate 70ish % of the damage to stop it. Even if they are in an AOE that is doing 30k, you might be able to save them in the short term with mitigation, but if they don't leave right away, you'll burn through resources so quickly that they will die anyway. This is probably due to ZOS's attempt to make groups respect a fight's mechanics and so they wanted to make it impossible to stop 1-shots/1-sec lethal without people leaving the area/preventing the ritual etc etc.

It would scale up better in lower level content, but for the most part, regular healing is enough in lower level content and completely making your build around mitigation.

Waffennacht

vovus69 wrote: »

Due to a lot of strange mechanics in the game shields 15k-20k are a MUST in pve.
Last example - vBC1 - King Rilis has someting like soul damage ability with NO TELEGRAPH, which IGNORES the taunt and this ability has 22k damage one shot. How do you suppose to survive if normally you have 18k-19k HP and no shield?
And this is just off top of my head. There are a lot of examples like this. zos is stupid enough and cannot introduce smart
battle mechanics, so they introduced a lot of one shot abilities among the bosses in vet dungeons and trials. If they want to remove the shields - they should redesign all vet dungeons and trials. I highly doubt that they will do this.

So, as I said in other thread - DO NOT touch PVE if you don't know it. Play your pvp.

-vovus

I literally just soloed vBC1 with a no shield sorc.

No, it's not a "must"

Edit: ZoS plans to buff the heck outta Sorcs for 4 man's. I am really surprised. The upcoming invincible pets is gonna be pretty huge

Glurin

vovus69 wrote: »

Due to a lot of strange mechanics in the game shields 15k-20k are a MUST in pve.
Last example - vBC1 - King Rilis has someting like soul damage ability with NO TELEGRAPH, which IGNORES the taunt and this ability has 22k damage one shot. How do you suppose to survive if normally you have 18k-19k HP and no shield?

Slot some extra health?

I know, I know, such a thing is considered blasphemy around these parts. But seriously, you don't need a glass cannon to kill Rilis. Put some metal pants on or something.

Frankly, given some of the changes ZoS is throwing out there, I'm beginning to suspect that this is exactly what they are trying to encourage. They want people to not get so hung up on being glass cannons and actually force them to make the choice between more survivability or more damage. Personally, I can absolutely agree with that principle. Glass cannons should be fragile. That's kind of the point of calling them glass cannons.

The problem of course is that vet DLC and vet trials seem to be tuned to having glass cannon level DPS. Bit of a conundrum there. How do they make that content a challenge without requiring so much DPS as to artificially impose too many limits on the kinds of builds people can use.

Drdeath20

This wont effect dungeons or trials. I rarely cast a shield in trials but when i did it was for a big boss mechanic. Same goes with dungeons i only needed a shield for that little extra defensive push. Boss is about to punish the group. Shield up and block, health bar barely moves and this is with a small harness magicka shield with 0 points in bastion.

If you feel you have to stack big shields in a dungeon or trial group for anything other than a tank your either in the wrong group or doing it wrong.

Amdar_Godkiller

I think so, but it's getting easier to stack resistances with protective trait, armor focus cp finally becoming viable, etc.

Pretty sure critical resistance will be even more necessary across the board. Minor force is now easy to get and there NBs and templars pushing 195% crit modifiers on the regular, which with 3K crit resistance will hit just like 150% base crit.

Drdeath20

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

I think so, but it's getting easier to stack resistances with protective trait, armor focus cp finally becoming viable, etc.

Pretty sure critical resistance will be even more necessary across the board. Minor force is now easy to get and there NBs and templars pushing 195% crit modifiers on the regular, which with 3K crit resistance will hit just like 150% base crit.

He asked about pve

Amdar_Godkiller

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

I think so, but it's getting easier to stack resistances with protective trait, armor focus cp finally becoming viable, etc.

Pretty sure critical resistance will be even more necessary across the board. Minor force is now easy to get and there NBs and templars pushing 195% crit modifiers on the regular, which with 3K crit resistance will hit just like 150% base crit.

He asked about pve

My bad. Long day.

Short answer.

No.

If it became an issue, you could have a warden off-tank run lord warden and meritorious service, between those two, combat prayer from the healer, and ice fortress you'd be able to buff group resistances by 13200 pretty much constantly.

md3788

vovus69 wrote: »

Due to a lot of strange mechanics in the game shields 15k-20k are a MUST in pve.
Last example - vBC1 - King Rilis has someting like soul damage ability with NO TELEGRAPH, which IGNORES the taunt and this ability has 22k damage one shot. How do you suppose to survive if normally you have 18k-19k HP and no shield?
And this is just off top of my head. There are a lot of examples like this. zos is stupid enough and cannot introduce smart
battle mechanics, so they introduced a lot of one shot abilities among the bosses in vet dungeons and trials. If they want to remove the shields - they should redesign all vet dungeons and trials. I highly doubt that they will do this.

So, as I said in other thread - DO NOT touch PVE if you don't know it. Play your pvp.

-vovus

I'm sorry but this is just not accurate. You don't need a 20k shield for anything unless you just want to stand in one place and ignore mechanics. If that's how you play, then you deserve to get one-shot.

IZZEFlameLash

Damage mitigation is important but damage keeps going higher and higher. And they keep nerfing mitigation when damage people complain about someone living more than 1 sec against them. But because damage is so high now, you end up needing more mitigation. But really, shield sets listed here are unreliable.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Not in good groups. Nothing is really going to change for them. Even though shield value will be a touch lower, the strength will actually be higher because as stated, nothing crits in PVE. Magic characters will still slot an oh crap button, which will be nearly as effective as before. Raids will still stack as much stamina as possible because the damage is better. Healers will still run sets to buff damage.

What started out as a plan to make healers not feel sad and lonely in PVE has turned into nothing more than a sorc nerf in PVP. I am surprised that I am surprised...

"Nearly as effective"?

For a magsorc who isn't stacking resistances, with 18k health, they'll generate a shield value of something like 7.2k assuming bastion doesn't work anymore. Maybe it'll be 30% more effective than current shields? Maybe? Even that's a stretch IMO, but let's bump that up to 1.3 x 7.2 = 9.4k for an "effective shield value" to give us something to compare to live shields.

Current magsorcs can get 23-24k shields no problem, 24/9.4 = roughly 40%. So sorc shields have been nerfed by something like 60%, assuming bastion really won't work anymore. For harness magicka users, I guess it'd be more like a 40-50% nerf. Still huge, still not "nearly as effective."

As for my opinion on shield proc sets, they're 100% going to be more popular now. I'm super glad I've been saving up imperium for a while, but it's bittersweet because a 12k shield would mean my toon has to have 30k health to get the full benefit. Still, it opens up some tanking possibilities, so I guess there is some good to come out of this stinking pile of nerfs called an update.

If you need a 20k shield in PVE, you have a serious L2P issue. Sorc shields in PVE are overkill at the moment. This is evident as sorc shields dont get used in competitive end game PVP because sorcs dont get used in competitive PVE (except for a backup healer). Harness is plenty now and will be plenty next patch.

I am not saying its not technically a nerf, but its an irrelevant nerf for most of the end game community. As to the post, well again, I dont think these sets are going to gain in popularity. At the cap is at the cap, and I dont see DPS in most groups abandoning shields completely. Shields will still be an effective oh crap button, and healers will run support sets to boost damage.

Now that they have clarified the 40% cap is per shield and not total shields, I might pull back on this a bit. Meta raids still wont use them, but I could definitely see them gain in popularity in progression groups. That said the problem with most progression groups is they emulate meta raids from a build standpoint, even when its not appropriate for them to do so, in other words, who knows... Haha