The Other Vet Trials

kylewwefan

They’re trash. You can’t make excuses for this going on for so long now. Every one after Craglorn is hot steaming poo and leads to toxic community. There’s no reason for it.

This divide created between bad players, good players and elite is too much. Everyone that sticks around to over 500 CP wants to do this stuff, but very very few can.

Most wont even get an opportunity. It’s not how this should be. Even normal is way too much for zone thrown together groups and why a Trials group finder wouldn’t be remotely viable.

Hopefully it’s not too late for you dev’s to fix this garbage you’ve given us.


There’s threads on Bad Players, Good Players & Elite. Here’s a more honest take on it.

Bad Player puts out about 7k Damage, doesn’t use dots. Wants to be good but can’t quite seem to figure this whole rotation thing out. Maybe bar swapping? Just whatever they’re doing isn’t working so great. They don’t want to be bad. Just are.

Good Player puts together decent build, has decent rotation, survivability and proper CP placement. Gets around 15~20k Damage. Can do most everything they try to do in this game. But they’re excluded from Vet Groups for reasons.

Elite players are just more. When I was barely cracking 30k on a toon; ( which was getting into elite territory) I Shareplay with a very good friend and he gets 38k on my same setup. That was over a year ago. I still don’t hit 38k on this particular toon. He don’t even play no more. Go figure.


Fix this game. Before it’s too late. Fix it for the people that do play.

Not many even still want to run nMoL or nHoF or nAS anymore. They want to run Vet. Vet is just way too much for people that actually still play.

All that stuff is done with progression groups. Good for them. The rest of us, rarely if ever get a chance to play with the same people. It’s always different people. The way it is now, you get no progress picking up another random person. Even if she’s a good player.

Good players just get frustrated and leave. Elite type won’t have anything to do with it. They would rather wait to organize a perfect group. That just doesn’t happen for most.

It’s dissapointing. This game could be so much more. Every patch you have an opportunity to fix these things...but you don’t.

Kikke

Uhm. No? Bad players have a lot to do ingame, other than doing vet trials.

hmm.... Learn how to play the game is one of them. Anything else is just lazy and goes into today's mindset of "instant gratification" that every kid has.

And now; on a personal note. Craglorn trials SUCKS, no mechanics, no challenge, no nothing. Me and my team does vAA HM in 14min, vSO HM in 15min and vHRC HM in 14min. They SUCK! the tank just permablocks, healer just spam springs and DPS can slack around doing less then 20k dps and still be sure a clear.

Nope. The thing behind trials (raids) in MMOs have always been that it's been more difficult that dungeons

valeriiya

As much as I love a good bashing thread, you can't blame ZOS for player skill and the toxic community. PvP and PVE communities can be absolutely toxic just like the real world. It's up to players to find people that are not. ZOS is not holding hands and making people play nice. Craglorn trials are easy so people screamed for more difficult content and we got it. I say this from the perspective of someone who has not cracked 25k on any character and can get through the Craglorn trials on vet with no issue. I wouldn't even try to do them on HM or any of the new trials on vet. Make some friends or get a guild. Your post also offers no ideas or how to make them better, that doesn't help anyone.

karekiz

I maybe a bit confused:

"Not many even still want to run nMoL or nHoF or nAS anymore. They want to run Vet. Vet is just way too much for people that actually still play."

Form a raid?

Now the real complaint should be in how ESO assists to form pre-made groups. Which is basically nothing. Separate zones, and no cross zone chat. Something like the DDO/WOW premade system please <Added DDO in case X person sees WoW and immediately jumps to "we can't have that cause I don't like WoW and that means any system they have suxxorz>.

OrphanHelgen

Make eso an idle game.

kylewwefan

You must have an exquisite team! I can assure you that it’s not this way for the vast majority of us. I’d love to see a group of 20k DPS or so running Vet HelRa HM in 15 minutes! It’s more like an hour or two. And VSO from zone is not likely gonna finish regular vet. Mindlessly beating on some dummy to get your DPS from 20k to 23k is no ones idea of learning how to play.

kikkehs wrote: »

Uhm. No? Bad players have a lot to do ingame, other than doing vet trials.

hmm.... Learn how to play the game is one of them. Anything else is just lazy and goes into today's mindset of "instant gratification" that every kid has.

And now; on a personal note. Craglorn trials SUCKS, no mechanics, no challenge, no nothing. Me and my team does vAA HM in 14min, vSO HM in 15min and vHRC HM in 14min. They SUCK! the tank just permablocks, healer just spam springs and DPS can slack around doing less then 20k dps and still be sure a clear.

Nope. The thing behind trials (raids) in MMOs have always been that it's been more difficult that dungeons

The bigger problem here is mechanics and getting a team together to work on stuff. And to be able to keep doing stuff. People get their clear and they’re done. Not going back. Too much work. It’s forever stuck in progression mode.

Guilds stick by their DPS parses. Now they’re up to 32k DPS min to be part of these progressions. I get that you can’t carry a bunch of players legitimately pulling 7k but get real. When MoL was introduced very few people were hitting more than 25k. There weren’t even test dummies back then.

valeriiya wrote: »

As much as I love a good bashing thread, you can't blame ZOS for player skill and the toxic community. PvP and PVE communities can be absolutely toxic just like the real world. It's up to players to find people that are not. ZOS is not holding hands and making people play nice. Craglorn trials are easy so people screamed for more difficult content and we got it. I say this from the perspective of someone who has not cracked 25k on any character and can get through the Craglorn trials on vet with no issue. I wouldn't even try to do them on HM or any of the new trials on vet. Make some friends or get a guild. Your post also offers no ideas or how to make them better, that doesn't help anyone.

You can’t offer up the perfect solution to these type of people. They must need to feel like they came up with it themselves.

Alcast has put out the idea of nightmare mode no CP Vet hardmode. I think that’s still not quite right. I think hardmode should start at the beginning of dungeons/Trials. Not just the last boss. Maybe last boss No CP for nightmare challenge.

Regular vet now, is over the top IMO.

I’d love to pick up a bunch of decent players from zone chat and go run VAS, or VHOF or even VCR. But you can’t. All this stuff has to be a progression. A dedicated team. Grabbing a bunch of players, even if they’re decent is setting yourself up for fail. That’s a big problem with this game. They could fix that. They should fix that.

A decent group from zone might be able to carry a few bad players through normal. A full decent group should be able to do Vet. But it won’t happen.

Danksta

Just mad you can't afford the other skins?

LadyNalcarya

While I agree that the gap between average and "elite" players is way too big these days... It's not players fault, it's just how ZOS tries to balance the game: they mostly buff the strongest dds (like with that light attack buff) and nerf everyone else. This is why we have to deal with this enourmous power gap.
However, selecting veteran mode in ESO is the same as selecting "very hard" difficulty in a single player game. It's kinda silly to select hard mode and then complain that it was actually hard.
15-20k is not that good, it's pretty much an entrance level for vet content (assuming that the player can do this dps while paying attention to the mechanics). But it also means that their dots probably have about 50% uptime, they dont use light attacks etc... So there's a room for improvement.
And then again... If the game doesnt explain you how to play it, it's not players fault. It's ZOS fault, they could've added a basic tutorial on rotations and such. Putting the blame on players is not constructive. They are not the ones who implement changes that lead to power gap, they simply play the game the way they enjoy it.

LadyNalcarya

kylewwefan wrote: »

You must have an exquisite team! I can assure you that it’s not this way for the vast majority of us. I’d love to see a group of 20k DPS or so running Vet HelRa HM in 15 minutes! It’s more like an hour or two. And VSO from zone is not likely gonna finish regular vet. Mindlessly beating on some dummy to get your DPS from 20k to 23k is no ones idea of learning how to play.

kikkehs wrote: »

Uhm. No? Bad players have a lot to do ingame, other than doing vet trials.

hmm.... Learn how to play the game is one of them. Anything else is just lazy and goes into today's mindset of "instant gratification" that every kid has.

And now; on a personal note. Craglorn trials SUCKS, no mechanics, no challenge, no nothing. Me and my team does vAA HM in 14min, vSO HM in 15min and vHRC HM in 14min. They SUCK! the tank just permablocks, healer just spam springs and DPS can slack around doing less then 20k dps and still be sure a clear.

Nope. The thing behind trials (raids) in MMOs have always been that it's been more difficult that dungeons

The bigger problem here is mechanics and getting a team together to work on stuff. And to be able to keep doing stuff. People get their clear and they’re done. Not going back. Too much work. It’s forever stuck in progression mode.

Guilds stick by their DPS parses. Now they’re up to 32k DPS min to be part of these progressions. I get that you can’t carry a bunch of players legitimately pulling 7k but get real. When MoL was introduced very few people were hitting more than 25k. There weren’t even test dummies back then.

valeriiya wrote: »

As much as I love a good bashing thread, you can't blame ZOS for player skill and the toxic community. PvP and PVE communities can be absolutely toxic just like the real world. It's up to players to find people that are not. ZOS is not holding hands and making people play nice. Craglorn trials are easy so people screamed for more difficult content and we got it. I say this from the perspective of someone who has not cracked 25k on any character and can get through the Craglorn trials on vet with no issue. I wouldn't even try to do them on HM or any of the new trials on vet. Make some friends or get a guild. Your post also offers no ideas or how to make them better, that doesn't help anyone.

You can’t offer up the perfect solution to these type of people. They must need to feel like they came up with it themselves.

Alcast has put out the idea of nightmare mode no CP Vet hardmode. I think that’s still not quite right. I think hardmode should start at the beginning of dungeons/Trials. Not just the last boss. Maybe last boss No CP for nightmare challenge.

Regular vet now, is over the top IMO.

I’d love to pick up a bunch of decent players from zone chat and go run VAS, or VHOF or even VCR. But you can’t. All this stuff has to be a progression. A dedicated team. Grabbing a bunch of players, even if they’re decent is setting yourself up for fail. That’s a big problem with this game. They could fix that. They should fix that.

A decent group from zone might be able to carry a few bad players through normal. A full decent group should be able to do Vet. But it won’t happen.

A full decent group can do vet if they practice a bit.
Hardest content is not supposed to be puggable, though. You see, there's a few ways to make content difficult: adding mechanics that require group coordination or adding dps races instead. If anything, the first option is better for less than spectacular dds.

idk

Reading the very start I though OP was going to call the Craglorn trial trash since they are so easy.

vMoL is by far the best designed trial in this game. There is nothing that comes close to it. Granted, the rest of the trials since them are not as good, but are still far better than Craglorn trials.

Kikke

Alcast's idea about noCP Trial (Nightmare) is brilliant and exactly what this game needs.

El_Borracho

@kylewwefan, I don't really understand your complaint. If its for trials that fall somewhere between the Craglorn three and MOL, AS, and HOF, then sure. It would be awesome to have 3 more trials in that medium area. It would be similar to the grades of difficulty you can find in the dungeons. But there always needs to be an apex in terms of difficulty. I f^%%*$ hate vAS. Mostly useless drops and an aggravating mechanic with the last boss. Heck, I hate nAS but I still play it because its is more challenging and offers a break from the Craglorn trials.

If its a complaint about the organization of the trials, I would like to see a system like dungeon finder for trials. Yes, dungeon finder has major flaws, but its better than waiting around Craglorn and watching the chat for PUG invites.

Most good players, as you have put it, don't really turn up in droves to the three veteran trials you have pointed out. But at some point, good players have to become elite, and one way to do that is to test yourself against harder content. Its the best way to expose weaknesses in your game, build, whatever.

kylewwefan

Danksta wrote: »

Just mad you can't afford the other skins?

If they would stop introducing all these new Motifs for me to blow all my cash on, I’d have the gold.

Like everyone else. I’m tired of running normal stuff and Vet is way to hard. (Trash) you’ll never get it with different players every time you have a chance to work on it. It ain’t gonna happen.

Since you happen to run with groups and players that sell skin runs, I have to take your input very lightly.

Nevasca

If you can't DPS at all, try healing/tanking. All you need is gear, which you can farm in normal versions, which again, you don't need to be DPSing if for all your life you can't hit good numbers. Not that working in the support role is easy, in fact I would say it's harder due to the pressure in vTrials. If you *** up it's a wipe. DPS *** up? He waits for a rez.

People who hit below 20k are probably not using the most optimal rotation or gear. We have tons of content creators, such as Alcast, Th3AsianGod, Lico and so on showing Build and Rotation for each class setup. Lack of knowledge is not the problem. In this patch, I'd say a good DPS player hits at least 25-30k on a 6m.

"Elites" would hit 35-40k+ depending on the class, sometimes even 50k (stamblade hehe xd). Thing is, you don't need to hit 40k to complete vet trials, it's just what a end game trial guild would require(example), since it means you put time and effort to learn your class and rotation long enough to hit good numbers. Also skipping(some) mechanics with DPS is a requirement at this point.

Now, you want to know why there is just a large difference in players? ESO attracts more casual players than MMO veterans. You see "Elder Scrolls" in the game title, you remember of Skyrim which literally lets you play how you like, therefore you think the same applies here. But it doesn't. You can't queue with Heavy armor, no sets and use random skills and expect to have a good DPS and complete all veteran content in the game.However you can get away with a lot in Normals, which is why they are there in the first place. Veteran mode is for veteran players, or "elite", call what you like. We have two game modes for a reason, and I don't think there's a problem with that. If a casual player wants to get to veteran content and can't even break 20k DPS they need to start wearing their try-hard pants and git gud.

TheNightflame

not everything has to be a prog, you can get 11 friends who feel the same as you and beat vhof together on your third night of 2 hour social runs

LadyNalcarya

kylewwefan wrote: »

Danksta wrote: »

Just mad you can't afford the other skins?

If they would stop introducing all these new Motifs for me to blow all my cash on, I’d have the gold.

Like everyone else. I’m tired of running normal stuff and Vet is way to hard. (Trash) you’ll never get it with different players every time you have a chance to work on it. It ain’t gonna happen.

Since you happen to run with groups and players that sell skin runs, I have to take your input very lightly.

Well, it was your choice to handicap yourself by playing with randoms. If you're into this, you might as well choose to play without CPs to make normal content more challenging.
Of course it's difficult to clear vet trials and dungeons with pugs. It's not because there are super OP dps races or something, they just require group coordination. It's certainly possible to clear almost everything (except vAS hm and vCR hm) with average group if theyre willing to try it. You see, it's not gonna work if you just wipe a couple of times and then disband. It will take some time, but it's fun if you have a group of likeminded people.. You know, life's a journey, not a destination.

Kikke

People just dont want to work for anything anymore.

kylewwefan

That’s exactly what a progression group is. And that’s the problem. It’s incredibly difficult to get 11 of your closest friends together to work on something a few times a week. Your most likely gonna have to find 3 or 4 replacements. At that point it feels like you’re starting over from scratch every time.

Because I’ve been in a few different progression groups. That might as well have been Craglorn Pugs. Because you never get the same people coming back. It feels like these trials are permanently stuck in progression. And that’s the bad part I’m getting at.

And then your friends. Who finally get a clear. All a sudden decide, nah. I’m not ever going back in there again. That was a terrible experience. Maybe I’ll take a break from this game for awhile.

That’s what happens. All the time.

TheNightflame wrote: »

not everything has to be a prog, you can get 11 friends who feel the same as you and beat vhof together on your third night of 2 hour social runs

Danksta

kylewwefan wrote: »

That’s exactly what a progression group is. And that’s the problem. It’s incredibly difficult to get 11 of your closest friends together to work on something a few times a week. Your most likely gonna have to find 3 or 4 replacements. At that point it feels like you’re starting over from scratch every time.

Because I’ve been in a few different progression groups. That might as well have been Craglorn Pugs. Because you never get the same people coming back. It feels like these trials are permanently stuck in progression. And that’s the bad part I’m getting at.

And then your friends. Who finally get a clear. All a sudden decide, nah. I’m not ever going back in there again. That was a terrible experience. Maybe I’ll take a break from this game for awhile.

That’s what happens. All the time.

TheNightflame wrote: »

not everything has to be a prog, you can get 11 friends who feel the same as you and beat vhof together on your third night of 2 hour social runs

I've been in guilds/discord groups with you that run progressions, but you're never active in them. I get that progression can be demanding on your schedule, but a lot of times these things take sacrifice. I've put in a lot of time to be able to complete all that I have in this game. It's not for everybody, I get that, maybe it's just not for you. That doesn't mean that they should make all trials puggable.

Donny_Vito

Vet DLC Trials are meant to be challenging and push us to our limits. They require progression groups and some sacrifice, as well as an abundance of practice and communication with a consistent group of players. There is probably a 90%+ fail rate of people that try to PUG these dlc trials on vet.

kylewwefan

Yeah. My gaming time is sporadic and broke up. Occasionally I get a big chunk of time to binge play and work on stuff. It makes solid commitment to something a few times a week near impossible.

And then of course, something comes up when I committed to be there...and you forever lose that spot.

You just can’t get stuff done this way. And if it’s not me with my own issues. Someone else can’t make it. Or maybe several other people can’t make it, then nothing gets done.

It shouldn’t be this hard to put a couple decent people together and go do stuff. Ya know. There’s always people on wanting to do stuff. So Sick and tired of HelRa and AA. Isn’t everyone.

AuraNebula

Why don't you just join a trials guild?
Trying to do trials only through pug groups in craglorn is never going to get you anywhere. A guild will go over mechanics, help you with your build and rotation. A year ago I was only hitting 25k. I'm at 41k now, it's not impossible it just takes practice and some help from fellow players. Don't look for random trials, start looking for a trials guild.

Donny_Vito

kylewwefan wrote: »

Yeah. My gaming time is sporadic and broke up. Occasionally I get a big chunk of time to binge play and work on stuff. It makes solid commitment to something a few times a week near impossible.

And then of course, something comes up when I committed to be there...and you forever lose that spot.

You just can’t get stuff done this way. And if it’s not me with my own issues. Someone else can’t make it. Or maybe several other people can’t make it, then nothing gets done.

It shouldn’t be this hard to put a couple decent people together and go do stuff. Ya know. There’s always people on wanting to do stuff. So Sick and tired of HelRa and AA. Isn’t everyone.

The idea that they should make all Vet Trials easier so more casual players can complete them is not a good idea, in my opinion. They specifically made these DLC dungeons very challenging on Vet because players wanted harder content. We were tired of cake-walking Craglorn trials with our eyes closed. So we can't have it both ways. Either put some time/effort into finding a trials guild and progressing with them, or face the realization that you can't complete these with PUGs and move on to content that you can.

LadyNalcarya

kylewwefan wrote: »

Yeah. My gaming time is sporadic and broke up. Occasionally I get a big chunk of time to binge play and work on stuff. It makes solid commitment to something a few times a week near impossible.

And then of course, something comes up when I committed to be there...and you forever lose that spot.

You just can’t get stuff done this way. And if it’s not me with my own issues. Someone else can’t make it. Or maybe several other people can’t make it, then nothing gets done.

It shouldn’t be this hard to put a couple decent people together and go do stuff. Ya know. There’s always people on wanting to do stuff. So Sick and tired of HelRa and AA. Isn’t everyone.

Well it's just not how things work.
There's no mmos that allow you to instantly pug all content. ESO is actually very casual-friendly compared to many others: there's no gear progression and everything has an easy mode. Casual players can do everything in this game, except the new trial hardmodes (which kinda makes sense). But if you play 1 hour per week, for example, you cannot really expect to clear all difficulties. You're saying that you're tired of Hel Ra and AA, but if everything would be dumbed down to the lowest common denominator (aka "pug friendly"), you'd get tired of the game a long time ago. Mmos need long-term players because they keep developing new content and have to pay for servers, this is why they always have long term goals, be it vet hardmode or a +20 weapon upgrade. ESO doesnt have gear progression, so if they implement your ideas, any fresh cp160 players would just clear all hardmodes and quit the game because there will be nothing else to do.
Like it or not, that's how mmos work, and again, ESO is very casual-friendly. In many other games you'd be at the bottom of gear score rankings and wouldnt be able to do much both in pve and pvp. In ESO, on the other hand, you just need a little bit of commitment and you can do pretty much everything.

pelle412

kikkehs wrote: »

Me and my team does vAA HM in 14min, vSO HM in 15min and vHRC HM in 14min.

I'd love to see your vSO HM 15 min run. The best I ever saw or heard of was 19:07 with a 175K score.

ATomiX96

If you are looking at normal trials, they are stupid easy. For veteran trials, most of them fairly easy as well and Puggable to the most extent (vAS+0, vCR+0 are also puggable).

im glad that there is some kind of barrier keeping the plebs away from endgame content, because its not meant to be accessible for everyone... even though the barrier is diminishing with every patch and cp increase.
If you want to do that content, one simple solution GIT GUD and find a good progression guild its not that hard. (anymore... every semi-decent player can pull 50k dps in trials nowadays)

Definition of a good progression guild: progression mindset: 2-3 (or more) raids a week, core group of exactly 12 people not changing roles they are playing, people who are motivated and willing to improve themselves

Sparr0w

25k dps is fine to clear all vet trials, just might take longer.

Xbox EU have a facebook group where people are always recruiting for vet progression teams so see if PS4 NA have one, or try on here. The trick is having a team rather than just jumping in random groups as random groups tend to have higher requirements.

e.g. 2 prog teams im in (vMoL & vAS+x) require 30k dps, where as the last couple random groups i've been pulled into wanted 45k+, I'd guess its to make up for the lack of teamwork and the inevitable deaths from lack of communication.

Mister_DMC

Kyle I thought you just joined a good guild for this kind of content?

kylewwefan

Yeah I did. These guys are great. Game time for me though are like binge playing Friday and Saturday night and that’s about it. Most all other game time is broke up sporadic, maybe get some time in the afternoon one day. Maybe. This whole progression mentality just goes over my head. It’s out of reach. I’ll never have a few days in a row to work on stuff. Know what I mean.

El_Borracho

kylewwefan wrote: »

Yeah I did. These guys are great. Game time for me though are like binge playing Friday and Saturday night and that’s about it. Most all other game time is broke up sporadic, maybe get some time in the afternoon one day. Maybe. This whole progression mentality just goes over my head. It’s out of reach. I’ll never have a few days in a row to work on stuff. Know what I mean.

I do. You are describing exactly when and how I play this game. Maybe I have a different mindset of progression. For me, the game will always be there, so there is no rush to kill it daily. And when I am on it, I'm there to have a good time. My main goal in these three harder trials is not wiping a group or being the anchor dragged along, while learning how to play the trial better. Sometimes I have to be babysit (having flashbacks to my first vHOF run), other times I'm on fire. Most of the time I just fade into average DPS player in the group, which is fine with me.

I figure I will eventually "git gud" on the 3 vet trials you posted about. In no way do I consider myself "elite," but I also am far from being awful. Well, most of the time. Had a pretty horrific run in vAS this weekend where I got trapped against a wall and was repeatedly killed after being rezzed. But the group laughed and I shook it off. In the end, this is supposed to be fun, right?

greenmachine

I think I know what you mean @kylewwefan. I have run normal trials with a few guilds but I never joined their progression teams, sometimes because I felt like I wasn't in the progression team clique, sometimes because I would rather just work on other toons or just do other stuff in general.

In my guild there is a group of about 6 or 7 of us who are on regularly, have normal trial experience, and would like to schedule a regular trial group so we can learn to work together, learn the fights, and progress to vet trials. We have had a real hard time recruiting anybody else to the point that we kind of just gave up a couple of months ago.

When we have filled the group out with PUGs, the runs go smoothly, everybody has fun, and everybody gets loot, but at the end of a few trial runs and sometimes between trials *poof* the PUGs vanish, never to be heard from again. Next time we get a run together, half the crew are PUGs again and we start over. Sometimes it feels like there just aren't that many people interested in working toward vet trials. It's like people either want to join a group that has the content on farm or they'd rather not do trials at all.