Swift +5% speed +5% sprint speed

cheemers

This was suggested by @Solariken in another thread and I wanted to highlight it as it's a great idea. The biggest issue with swift I feel is that the passive non-sprint speed becomes so fast that they can literally dance in and out of melee range during combat while still attacking and channeling abilities, making hit detection very wonky and frustrating. By halving the basic speed bonus it means you can't take advantage of ridiculous speed during active combat, but by moving it to sprint speed it still allows bursts of very rapid movement e.g. running from zergs but at a cost (sprinting, no abilities castable). For the record I play all classes in PvP but main magplar, stamden and stamsorc.

Thoughts?

susmitds

It should be 5% speed+15% sprint cost reduction.

Why?

Well, non-orc medium armor users hit speed cap while sprinting with 0 Swift. So more sprint speed won't help Medium armor, which is already lacking compared to Heavy Armor and only help Heavy Armor hit speedcap.

cheemers

susmitds wrote: »

It should be 5% speed+15% sprint cost reduction.

Why?

Well, non-orc medium armor users hit speed cap while sprinting with 0 Swift. So more sprint speed won't help Medium armor, which is already lacking compared to Heavy Armor and only help Heavy Armor hit speedcap.

Sprint reduction is already easily available to everyone via CP and the new LA passive; sprint speed is limited to MA passives, Orcs, and Fjords. We need more sprint speed not cost reduction.

Atm I don't think orcs hit speed cap sprinting without swift unless you run 7 medium + minor + major expedition + steed + 120cp passive.

Emma_Overload

NOPE. Just like I said in the other thread, this is a terrible idea. Sprint speed is massively biased in favor of Stamina builds, because they can sustain a lot more sprinting than Magicka builds.

I like the idea @susmitds suggested a lot better, because all builds would benefit.

SodanTok

cheemers wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

It should be 5% speed+15% sprint cost reduction.

Why?

Well, non-orc medium armor users hit speed cap while sprinting with 0 Swift. So more sprint speed won't help Medium armor, which is already lacking compared to Heavy Armor and only help Heavy Armor hit speedcap.

Sprint reduction is already easily available to everyone via CP and the new LA passive; sprint speed is limited to MA passives, Orcs, and Fjords. We need more sprint speed not cost reduction.

Atm I don't think orcs hit speed cap sprinting without swift unless you run 7 medium + minor + major expedition + steed + 120cp passive.

Dont think just do simple count before claiming anything

Cap = 200%
Count: Base 100% + Sprint 40% + Major Exp 30% + 7 Medium 21% = 191%
Add 9% from any other source.

Unless medium armor passive changes (which it should) both current swift and the thread suggestion just offer much better mobility to all other builds (while still being useful, medium loses on any sprint speed advantage coming from swift)

Jaxaxo

what about 5% speed and few % to reduce efectivness of snares? Like we have with light armor now? It would be favor builds without momentum or shuffle and would be nice with new passive from light armor

Mojomonkeyman

Jaxaxo wrote: »

what about 5% speed and few % to reduce efectivness of snares? Like we have with light armor now? It would be favor builds without momentum or shuffle and would be nice with new passive from light armor

I like both suggestions a lot, yours and OP's. I do think tho that permanent uptime of snare/immob immunity should not be achievable via FM.

John_Falstaff

Keep in mind, folks, that to go all swift, you have to give up ~2.6k stamina/magicka or what have you, and that's base value before buffs. Nerf swift a bit too hard, and it will be yet another Invigorating in the world of jewelry.

Lord_Sando

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Keep in mind, folks, that to go all swift, you have to give up ~2.6k stamina/magicka or what have you, and that's base value before buffs. Nerf swift a bit too hard, and it will be yet another Invigorating in the world of jewelry.

Exactly, swift is one of the few risk vs reward things in this game swift is fine as is. if swift is changed then change skills that give major expedition as well not all classes have access to speed bonus that fit well into builds.

susmitds

SodanTok wrote: »

cheemers wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

It should be 5% speed+15% sprint cost reduction.

Why?

Well, non-orc medium armor users hit speed cap while sprinting with 0 Swift. So more sprint speed won't help Medium armor, which is already lacking compared to Heavy Armor and only help Heavy Armor hit speedcap.

Sprint reduction is already easily available to everyone via CP and the new LA passive; sprint speed is limited to MA passives, Orcs, and Fjords. We need more sprint speed not cost reduction.

Atm I don't think orcs hit speed cap sprinting without swift unless you run 7 medium + minor + major expedition + steed + 120cp passive.

Dont think just do simple count before claiming anything

Cap = 200%
Count: Base 100% + Sprint 40% + Major Exp 30% + 7 Medium 21% = 191%
Add 9% from any other source.

Unless medium armor passive changes (which it should) both current swift and the thread suggestion just offer much better mobility to all other builds (while still being useful, medium loses on any sprint speed advantage coming from swift)

Sprint is 50% speed afaik. Medium armor already hits speedcap without swift, with Major Expedition.

Wise_Will

Once again, a good thing for casual questing/ PvE, is going to get ruined because a few people cant get kills in PVP. Good Job everyone! -.-

BaylorCorvette

I think Swift is fine. It is FM that is more of the problem.

However IF Swift must be changed;

Sprint: 40%
5 Medium Armor: 15%
Major Expedition: 30%
Orc: 10%

That's 95% right there, without any swift or minor expedition, or without two more pieces of medium armor.

I rather see what @susmitds suggested OR each piece of Swift gives +5% speed and -5% (or 10%) reduction in snare effectiveness. I like the snare effectiveness redution because it gives options of not running an ability to cleanse and/or become immune to snares.

kojou

I think it is ok that it doesn't help medium armor as much...

It's not like medium armor's weakness is mobility.

Arciris

cheemers wrote: »

This was suggested by @Solariken in another thread and I wanted to highlight it as it's a great idea. The biggest issue with swift I feel is that the passive non-sprint speed becomes so fast that they can literally dance in and out of melee range during combat while still attacking and channeling abilities, making hit detection very wonky and frustrating. By halving the basic speed bonus it means you can't take advantage of ridiculous speed during active combat, but by moving it to sprint speed it still allows bursts of very rapid movement e.g. running from zergs but at a cost (sprinting, no abilities castable). For the record I play all classes in PvP but main magplar, stamden and stamsorc.

Thoughts?

This is an idea that I would consider to be an elegant adjustment rather than a nerf.
It also doesn't impact PvE too much, so it might be better than just a flat nerf.

I still think however that any adjustment to Swift is a waste of Dev time and resources.

If a meager 30% speed increase was an issue, then WW would have been an issue since the beginning. But since WW do not possess any innate form of snare/root removal or Immunity, those were natural counters to WW and all was good.

Swift has a permanent cost of 2400 stamina or magika or almost 3000 health. Permanent means that each second, you miss those values. It's a cost per second.
Therefore Swift costs you damage, it costs you healing, it costs you sustain and, in case of magika, it costs you shield strength - permanently .
Not even going to dip into the fact that you could use other traits for even more damage, or sustain or survability.

And what you gain is a soft 30% mitigation against snares that can go up to 70%. Seems exactly the idea of Balance IMHO.

If you compare that to Forward Momentum, that has a base cost of 2910 but after MA cost reduction comes close to 2400 stamina.
2400 stamina for a removal and 8 secs of full Immunity to all roots and snares.
So FM costs about 400 stamina per second (super super cheap).
The only opportunity cost is using a 2 hander (that is already the predominant stam weapon in PvP) and the loss of an occasional burst heal (the other morph, Rally).

I've never defended a nerf before, just check my post history, I'm an anti nerf person. But between the two, it seems obvious to me that FM needs to be looked at, not Swift.

edit: typos again, pardon my French, English is not my native language :P

Minno

Jaxaxo wrote: »

what about 5% speed and few % to reduce efectivness of snares? Like we have with light armor now? It would be favor builds without momentum or shuffle and would be nice with new passive from light armor

I like this idea as well.

Honestly, mag needs a way to deslot mist form, and aside from forward momentum, there aren't any options to do so efficiently and without taking up bar slots.
Adding reduction on immobilize in addition to sprint cost/snare reduction would be a better addition for the LA passive but make swift with speed increase/snare duration reduction.

Minno

Arciris wrote: »

cheemers wrote: »

This was suggested by @Solariken in another thread and I wanted to highlight it as it's a great idea. The biggest issue with swift I feel is that the passive non-sprint speed becomes so fast that they can literally dance in and out of melee range during combat while still attacking and channeling abilities, making hit detection very wonky and frustrating. By halving the basic speed bonus it means you can't take advantage of ridiculous speed during active combat, but by moving it to sprint speed it still allows bursts of very rapid movement e.g. running from zergs but at a cost (sprinting, no abilities castable). For the record I play all classes in PvP but main magplar, stamden and stamsorc.

Thoughts?

This is an idea that I would consider to be an elegant adjustment rather than a nerf.
It also doesn't impact PvE negatively, so why not?

I still think however that any adjustment to Swift is a waste of Dev time and resources.

If a meager 30% speed increase was an issue, then WW would have been an issue since the beginning. But since WW do not possess any innate form of snare/root removal or Immunity, those were natural counters to WW and all was good.

Swift has a permanent cost of 2400 stamina or magika or almost 3000 health. Permanent means that each second, you miss those values. It's a cost per second.
Therefore Swift costs you damage, it costs you healing, it costs you sustain and, in case of magika, it costs you shield strength - permanently .
Not even going to dip into the fact that you could use other traits for even more damage, or sustain or survability.

And what you gain is a soft 30% mitigation against snares that can go up to 70%. Seems exactely the idea of Balance.

If you compare that to Forward Momentum, that has a base cost of 2910 but after MA cost reduction comes close to 2400 stamina. 2400 stamina for a removal and 8 secs of full Immunity to all roots and snares.
So FM costs about 400 stamina per second (super super cheap).
The only opportunity cost is using a 2 hander (that is already the predominant stam weapon in PvP) and the lost of an occasional burst heal (the other morph, Rally).

I've never defended a nerf before, just check my post history, I'm an anti nerf person. But between the two, it seems obvious that FM needs to be looked at, not Swift.

Agreed. Though if I have to take a nerf, it will be via this suggestion by OP to help mag builds retain some sort of speed against stamina builds.

Tommy_The_Gun

cheemers wrote: »

Thoughts?

10% (as it is now) out of combat
5% (cut in half) in combat

Strider__Roshin

Snare reduction would be pretty nice.

Arciris

Minno wrote: »

Jaxaxo wrote: »

what about 5% speed and few % to reduce efectivness of snares? Like we have with light armor now? It would be favor builds without momentum or shuffle and would be nice with new passive from light armor

I like this idea as well.

Honestly, mag needs a way to deslot mist form, and aside from forward momentum, there aren't any options to do so efficiently and without taking up bar slots.
Adding reduction on immobilize in addition to sprint cost/snare reduction would be a better addition for the LA passive but make swift with speed increase/snare duration reduction.

The issue with this idea is that it will impact PvE, while OP's suggestion does not, or to a lesser degree.

Plus, adding speed is just another way to reduce the effectiveness of snares. That is why I always look at Swift as a soft mitigation tool against snares.

Of course in PvE, it just adds speed. Usually, because a lot of critters actually snare you as well

susmitds

Arciris wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Jaxaxo wrote: »

what about 5% speed and few % to reduce efectivness of snares? Like we have with light armor now? It would be favor builds without momentum or shuffle and would be nice with new passive from light armor

I like this idea as well.

Honestly, mag needs a way to deslot mist form, and aside from forward momentum, there aren't any options to do so efficiently and without taking up bar slots.
Adding reduction on immobilize in addition to sprint cost/snare reduction would be a better addition for the LA passive but make swift with speed increase/snare duration reduction.

The issue with this idea is that it will impact PvE, while OP's suggestion does not.

Plus, adding speed is just another way to reduce the effectiveness of snares. That is why I always look at Swift as a soft mitigation tool against snares.

Of course in PvE, it just adds speed. Usually, because a lot of critters actually snare you as well

OP's idea is a direct nerf to medium armor, while not even addressing Heavy Armor mobility. Keep in mind, Swift is primarily a PvP trait. Farming is not exactly Player versus Envioronment either (Where is the versus there).

Minno

Arciris wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Jaxaxo wrote: »

what about 5% speed and few % to reduce efectivness of snares? Like we have with light armor now? It would be favor builds without momentum or shuffle and would be nice with new passive from light armor

I like this idea as well.

Honestly, mag needs a way to deslot mist form, and aside from forward momentum, there aren't any options to do so efficiently and without taking up bar slots.
Adding reduction on immobilize in addition to sprint cost/snare reduction would be a better addition for the LA passive but make swift with speed increase/snare duration reduction.

The issue with this idea is that it will impact PvE, while OP's suggestion does not.

Plus, adding speed is just another way to reduce the effectiveness of snares. That is why I always look at Swift as a soft mitigation tool against snares.

Of course in PvE, it just adds speed. Usually, because a lot of critters actually snare you as well

Yea I agree.

I used to use 3x swift on the ironblood set to soft decrease that snare to 26% because you couldn't remove it via immunity lol.

Arciris

susmitds wrote: »

Arciris wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Jaxaxo wrote: »

what about 5% speed and few % to reduce efectivness of snares? Like we have with light armor now? It would be favor builds without momentum or shuffle and would be nice with new passive from light armor

I like this idea as well.

Honestly, mag needs a way to deslot mist form, and aside from forward momentum, there aren't any options to do so efficiently and without taking up bar slots.
Adding reduction on immobilize in addition to sprint cost/snare reduction would be a better addition for the LA passive but make swift with speed increase/snare duration reduction.

The issue with this idea is that it will impact PvE, while OP's suggestion does not.

Plus, adding speed is just another way to reduce the effectiveness of snares. That is why I always look at Swift as a soft mitigation tool against snares.

Of course in PvE, it just adds speed. Usually, because a lot of critters actually snare you as well

OP's idea is a direct nerf to medium armor, while not even addressing Heavy Armor mobility. Keep in mind, Swift is primarily a PvP trait. Farming is not exactly Player versus Envioronment either (Where is the versus there).

It's not only about farming. It's about questing as well. With Swift I can use a sustain and a damage sets, which makes overland content a lot more enjoyable: i go fast/stuff dies faster (includes WB's and geysers/dolmens and even Norm vanilla dungeons)

And I don't see how the OP suggestion is a nerf to MA, when MA only needs 1 swift, or Hurricane or Orc to reach Speed Cap.while sprinting (or some other set or Mundus)
As for HA mobility, the issue relies mostly in Forward Momentum. And HA needs some mobility too, as well as LA. Or do MA users want the other armor types to just be sitting ducks to their huge burst, bleeds, defiles and what not?

Arciris

@cheemers

Orcs do hit sprint speed cap in full MA + Major expedition - actually, they go just a bit above sprint cap.
Other races need a little extra: it can be sets (Fjords), Minor Expedition (Jailbreaker set or Hurricane for Sorcs), Steed Mundus (requires all divines + a little help from the CP passive).

Emma_Overload wrote: »

NOPE. Just like I said in the other thread, this is a terrible idea. Sprint speed is massively biased in favor of Stamina builds, because they can sustain a lot more sprinting than Magicka builds.

I like the idea @susmitds suggested a lot better, because all builds would benefit.

Stamina builds would still be able to sustain sprint better due to the cheer size of their stamina pools.
This patch LA gets sprint cost reduction and if you want, you can use Well-Fitted or use a set like Prisonner's Rag (that's the set I use on my Magsorc with 3 swifts for PvP, the few times I go there).

Keeping Swift values is the only way to make sure LA sprints as fast as MA, LA just don't sustain it as well and has a higher opportunity cost, but at least, it's feasible.

This is why a +5% speed + 5% sprint speed is actually an excellent solution if Swift had to take a nerf, which I don't agree with.

Nox_Noir

No.

Arciris

Honestly, I would simply prefer a solution that doesn't involve PvE at all.

With the new and already existing notables houses large water pools, Swift allows my non-Argonian characters to swim faster, at least fast enough to not make moving and decorating my houses a chore.

Plus I like my Argonians swimming at speed cap, it just makes me giggle every time, because it's fun and immersive at the same time.

Sometimes PvPer's have no idea what their calls for nerfs imply for the rest of the player base.

Emma_Overload

I don't understand why people want to nerf Swift so bad. Who does that help?

If players are moving too fast for the game engine to keep up, then maybe the top possible speed needs to be reduced further. Nerfing Swift is just going to privilege certain builds over others (i.e. builds that can easily reach the speed cap without Swift).

ManDraKE

Emma_Overload wrote: »

I don't understand why people want to nerf Swift so bad. Who does that help?

Because they are not thinking, as usual. Nerfing swift it will only increase the breach in mobility beetwen stamina and magika classes.

Looking at the dev notes, seems like the devs are already aware that the solution is to implement some dimish returns mechanincs in movement speed bonuses, i wouldn't worry about these bad suggestions in the forums

Derra

The proposal i personally liked best was:

5% movespeed
10% reduced effectiveness of snares

LegacyDM

No absolutely no. As a magicka user I never sprint. This would be useless to magicka users.

Arciris

Emma_Overload wrote: »

I don't understand why people want to nerf Swift so bad. Who does that help?

If players are moving too fast for the game engine to keep up, then maybe the top possible speed needs to be reduced further. Nerfing Swift is just going to privilege certain builds over others (i.e. builds that can easily reach the speed cap without Swift).

ManDraKE wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

I don't understand why people want to nerf Swift so bad. Who does that help?

Because they are not thinking, as usual. Nerfing swift it will only increase the breach in mobility beetwen stamina and magika classes.

Looking at the dev notes, seems like the devs are already aware that the solution is to implement some dimish returns mechanincs in movement speed bonuses, i wouldn't worry about these bad suggestions in the forums

In my understanding, this thread has started to minimize the impact of possible future nerfs to Swift.
Unfortunately, we know they are coming even if they are, IMHO, unwarranted.
And since Devs swing the Nerf Hammer with unstoppable might, people are getting nervous.

I don't want a nerf to Swift or movement sped in general, but if it really needs to happen, I can only hope it stays out of PvE.

Arciris

Derra wrote: »

The proposal i personally liked best was:

5% movespeed
10% reduced effectiveness of snares

This is a buff for PvP and a nerf for PvE.
I don't think that it's what's on the Dev's mind.