About Flame Lash and Grim Focus...

Valrien

If giving them a cost was to "bring them in line with other procs like Crystal Fragments" why did you give them a cost at all? These 3 abilities are the only abilities that behave like they do, and 2 of them are free.

If 2/3 things behave one way, it would be logical to assume the 1/3 is the thing that gets changed...right?

The one example you cited @ZOS_RobGarrett was the outlier, which should be brought in line with the other two by being made free...not the other way around. It should also hit just as hard.

Turelus

Maybe logical, but if they wanted them to act the same and have costs, then they were still bought in line with one another as said.

Valrien

Turelus wrote: »

Maybe logical, but if they wanted them to act the same and have costs, then they were still bought in line with one another as said.

They changed the majority to match the outlier though. In their Dev Notes they made it sound like there were other abilities that behaved this way but Frags is the only one.

Sparr0w

I vote they do as op suggests, make the 2 free again and make frags free. Would keep sustain on both NB & DK, while making a sorc bearable to play without crying for synergies

HuawaSepp

Because of these changes and many others before they finally made it impossible to have the best damage with a light attack rotation even on magblade now.
All other classes are at this point since morrowind.
Stams lost their Flurry which was the best spammable in the entire game.
They let medium weaves die also.

Please, at least someone, tell me that you like these changes and are a huge fan of heavy attacks.

Savos_Saren

I would love if all three classes had the attack for free. However, I don't think all three should hit as hard as the MagBlade. Currently- my setups with DK, MagBlade, and Sorc are similar (Innate + Silk/War Maiden/Netch)

My DK's Power Lash hits for 11.5k but heals for 14k. Proccing it is also a little harder than the other two classes.
My Sorc's Frag proc hits for 14.5k and heals for 10% of my health. Proccing it is RNG based but somewhat high.
My NB's Spectral bow hits for 22k but doesn't heal. Proccing it is pretty easy.

So, DKs and Sorcs have side benefits to their proc- which means that they probably don't need to have the same damage as the NB.

Just my 2 cents worth.

jypcy

Sparr0w wrote: »

I vote they do as op suggests, make the 2 free again and make frags free. Would keep sustain on both NB & DK, while making a sorc bearable to play without crying for synergies

From what I’ve heard, that’s the opposite of their goal, though. If you want to do a LA rotation, they want you to have to build for some sustain and not be able to go full damage.

Strider__Roshin

Savos_Saren wrote: »

I would love if all three classes had the attack for free. However, I don't think all three should hit as hard as the MagBlade. Currently- my setups with DK, MagBlade, and Sorc are similar (Innate + Silk/War Maiden/Netch)

My DK's Power Lash hits for 11.5k but heals for 14k. Proccing it is also a little harder than the other two classes.
My Sorc's Frag proc hits for 14.5k and heals for 10% of my health. Proccing it is RNG based but somewhat high.
My NB's Spectral bow hits for 22k but doesn't heal. Proccing it is pretty easy.

So, DKs and Sorcs have side benefits to their proc- which means that they probably don't need to have the same damage as the NB.

Just my 2 cents worth.

I can cast frags way more frequently than I can with the Spectral Bow. There's no way these two abilities should do comparable damage

Chilly-McFreeze

Savos_Saren wrote: »

I would love if all three classes had the attack for free. However, I don't think all three should hit as hard as the MagBlade. Currently- my setups with DK, MagBlade, and Sorc are similar (Innate + Silk/War Maiden/Netch)

My DK's Power Lash hits for 11.5k but heals for 14k. Proccing it is also a little harder than the other two classes.
My Sorc's Frag proc hits for 14.5k and heals for 10% of my health. Proccing it is RNG based but somewhat high.
My NB's Spectral bow hits for 22k but doesn't heal. Proccing it is pretty easy.

So, DKs and Sorcs have side benefits to their proc- which means that they probably don't need to have the same damage as the NB.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Is that with or without the +20% from Stroke? Doesn't matter, since in your example it's nearly double the damage of lash and around 50% more than frag. Also, fun fact: 10% max health heal are how much? 1.5-2k in pve and 1-1.5 in pvp? Of course only when it actually hits.

But yeah, sounds balanced.

Valrien

Daus wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

I would love if all three classes had the attack for free. However, I don't think all three should hit as hard as the MagBlade. Currently- my setups with DK, MagBlade, and Sorc are similar (Innate + Silk/War Maiden/Netch)

My DK's Power Lash hits for 11.5k but heals for 14k. Proccing it is also a little harder than the other two classes.
My Sorc's Frag proc hits for 14.5k and heals for 10% of my health. Proccing it is RNG based but somewhat high.
My NB's Spectral bow hits for 22k but doesn't heal. Proccing it is pretty easy.

So, DKs and Sorcs have side benefits to their proc- which means that they probably don't need to have the same damage as the NB.

Just my 2 cents worth.

I can cast frags way more frequently than I can with the Spectral Bow. There's no way these two abilities should do comparable damage

Sorc is supposed to be the burst class. If anything Grim Focus shouldn't be hitting as hard as Frags

Camb0Sl1ce

i could be wrong but i think i remember reading a thread posted after a rep meeting where they said something about making frags more cost effecient? i guess if other procs cost half too it makes it more cost effecient, i figured thats what they would do sadly.

Strider__Roshin

Valrien wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

I would love if all three classes had the attack for free. However, I don't think all three should hit as hard as the MagBlade. Currently- my setups with DK, MagBlade, and Sorc are similar (Innate + Silk/War Maiden/Netch)

My DK's Power Lash hits for 11.5k but heals for 14k. Proccing it is also a little harder than the other two classes.
My Sorc's Frag proc hits for 14.5k and heals for 10% of my health. Proccing it is RNG based but somewhat high.
My NB's Spectral bow hits for 22k but doesn't heal. Proccing it is pretty easy.

So, DKs and Sorcs have side benefits to their proc- which means that they probably don't need to have the same damage as the NB.

Just my 2 cents worth.

I can cast frags way more frequently than I can with the Spectral Bow. There's no way these two abilities should do comparable damage

Sorc is supposed to be the burst class. If anything Grim Focus shouldn't be hitting as hard as Frags

They are a burst class; hence why you can hit Frags and curse consistently within the same GCD, and all sorcs need to do is get their opponent's health to 20% in order to kill their opponent so no Sorcs don't need to have Frags hit as hard as a magblades spectral bow.

Weps

I completely agree with this, Frags proc should've become free.

Valrien

Daus wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

I would love if all three classes had the attack for free. However, I don't think all three should hit as hard as the MagBlade. Currently- my setups with DK, MagBlade, and Sorc are similar (Innate + Silk/War Maiden/Netch)

My DK's Power Lash hits for 11.5k but heals for 14k. Proccing it is also a little harder than the other two classes.
My Sorc's Frag proc hits for 14.5k and heals for 10% of my health. Proccing it is RNG based but somewhat high.
My NB's Spectral bow hits for 22k but doesn't heal. Proccing it is pretty easy.

So, DKs and Sorcs have side benefits to their proc- which means that they probably don't need to have the same damage as the NB.

Just my 2 cents worth.

I can cast frags way more frequently than I can with the Spectral Bow. There's no way these two abilities should do comparable damage

Sorc is supposed to be the burst class. If anything Grim Focus shouldn't be hitting as hard as Frags

They are a burst class; hence why you can hit Frags and curse consistently within the same GCD, and all sorcs need to do is get their opponent's health to 20% in order to kill their opponent so no Sorcs don't need to have Frags hit as hard as a magblades spectral bow.

And guess how much damage curse + current frags does together...here's a hint: Not much, and far less than what a Nightblade could potentially do.

Sorc needs to have a really really hard hitting frags, especially with how easy it is to avoid

katorga

If anything Grim Focus shouldn't be hitting as hard as Frags

20 seconds of minor berserk, buffing all damage by 8%. It most certainly should be hitting well below Frags or Whip. It is more comparable to a warden getting 11% just for slotting Bird of Prey. Heck, the sorc +5% shock/physical passive doesn't even impact frags, at least make it shock damage.

Strider__Roshin

Valrien wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

I would love if all three classes had the attack for free. However, I don't think all three should hit as hard as the MagBlade. Currently- my setups with DK, MagBlade, and Sorc are similar (Innate + Silk/War Maiden/Netch)

My DK's Power Lash hits for 11.5k but heals for 14k. Proccing it is also a little harder than the other two classes.
My Sorc's Frag proc hits for 14.5k and heals for 10% of my health. Proccing it is RNG based but somewhat high.
My NB's Spectral bow hits for 22k but doesn't heal. Proccing it is pretty easy.

So, DKs and Sorcs have side benefits to their proc- which means that they probably don't need to have the same damage as the NB.

Just my 2 cents worth.

I can cast frags way more frequently than I can with the Spectral Bow. There's no way these two abilities should do comparable damage

Sorc is supposed to be the burst class. If anything Grim Focus shouldn't be hitting as hard as Frags

They are a burst class; hence why you can hit Frags and curse consistently within the same GCD, and all sorcs need to do is get their opponent's health to 20% in order to kill their opponent so no Sorcs don't need to have Frags hit as hard as a magblades spectral bow.

And guess how much damage curse + current frags does together...here's a hint: Not much, and far less than what a Nightblade could potentially do.

Sorc needs to have a really really hard hitting frags, especially with how easy it is to avoid

The Frag+Curse combo puts most players in Fury range. I certainly wouldn't consider that to be weak. Not to mention the Nightblades are also known for their burst just like sorcs, but rather than stacking burst in one GCD the burst damage from Nightblades is sequential so it only makes sense that the Spectral Bow hits harder.

Does that make sense now that I've explained it that way? I'll just assume that you agree with me unless you tell me otherwise. Have a great day.

Tonturri

Daus wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

I would love if all three classes had the attack for free. However, I don't think all three should hit as hard as the MagBlade. Currently- my setups with DK, MagBlade, and Sorc are similar (Innate + Silk/War Maiden/Netch)

My DK's Power Lash hits for 11.5k but heals for 14k. Proccing it is also a little harder than the other two classes.
My Sorc's Frag proc hits for 14.5k and heals for 10% of my health. Proccing it is RNG based but somewhat high.
My NB's Spectral bow hits for 22k but doesn't heal. Proccing it is pretty easy.

So, DKs and Sorcs have side benefits to their proc- which means that they probably don't need to have the same damage as the NB.

Just my 2 cents worth.

I can cast frags way more frequently than I can with the Spectral Bow. There's no way these two abilities should do comparable damage

Sorc is supposed to be the burst class. If anything Grim Focus shouldn't be hitting as hard as Frags

They are a burst class; hence why you can hit Frags and curse consistently within the same GCD, and all sorcs need to do is get their opponent's health to 20% in order to kill their opponent so no Sorcs don't need to have Frags hit as hard as a magblades spectral bow.

And guess how much damage curse + current frags does together...here's a hint: Not much, and far less than what a Nightblade could potentially do.

Sorc needs to have a really really hard hitting frags, especially with how easy it is to avoid

The Frag+Curse combo puts most players in Fury range. I certainly wouldn't consider that to be weak. Not to mention the Nightblades are also known for their burst just like sorcs, but rather than stacking burst in one GCD the burst damage from Nightblades is sequential so it only makes sense that the Spectral Bow hits harder.

Does that make sense now that I've explained it that way? I'll just assume that you agree with me unless you tell me otherwise. Have a great day.

Most players are bad - they're the ones who die to a simple Frag+Curse+execute and balancing around them is a terrible idea. Some fellow further up listed sorc's 10% heal on Frags use to be a boon. It's true that it's better than nothing, but the heal is so negligible it might as well not exist anyway.

Frags: I'm getting a 17.6kish tooltip (factoring in the 10% boost), a 'heal', and minor prohpecy bonus.
Lash: Much lower damage (I think 11-12k tooltip?), but it's made up for by the strong heal. Slows too I suppose. Not sure how DK sustain is going tho.
Bow: Highest damage of the lot, 24k tooltip in the same setup as the sorc (w/zerk active). minor zerk applies to everything else, small amount of crit (~2%?). 28.8k dmg with the 20% boost if you like. Very reliable, can be proc'ed on a backbar (while Frags only procs off casts on the bar it's slotted in). Is available to the class with excellent offensive pressure compared to sorc's lack in that department.

Anyway, I don't think the skills should all be free. Nightblades definitely needed the hit - not sure about DK sustain, I don't play them as a pve dps. Tbh this was actually one of the few changes I agree with - relatively small, not game breaking, and they can wait 'n see what happens. Easily reversable and won't break the game if they reverse it. Maybe bow could use an extremely small damage nerf *shrug*

Edit: Not counting the other passives Grim Focus WOULD give, as I assume you've got Soul Harvest/Incap/whatever on your frontbar as well. If not, add the 10% crit bonus.

Second edit: Forgot about slotted skilled. Grim Focus' tooltip is closer to 25k, which comes out to 30k if you facotri nthe 20% buff. About as much as Frags + Curse.

ccmedaddy

Magblade is currently the only PvE mag spec that feels great to play on live. Fluid combat, sustainable, and most importantly, FUN.

ZOS's solution to this problem: nerf magblade sustain so it becomes as frustrating to play as other classes. Instead of the other way around. Smdh.

Strider__Roshin

Tonturri wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

I would love if all three classes had the attack for free. However, I don't think all three should hit as hard as the MagBlade. Currently- my setups with DK, MagBlade, and Sorc are similar (Innate + Silk/War Maiden/Netch)

My DK's Power Lash hits for 11.5k but heals for 14k. Proccing it is also a little harder than the other two classes.
My Sorc's Frag proc hits for 14.5k and heals for 10% of my health. Proccing it is RNG based but somewhat high.
My NB's Spectral bow hits for 22k but doesn't heal. Proccing it is pretty easy.

So, DKs and Sorcs have side benefits to their proc- which means that they probably don't need to have the same damage as the NB.

Just my 2 cents worth.

I can cast frags way more frequently than I can with the Spectral Bow. There's no way these two abilities should do comparable damage

Sorc is supposed to be the burst class. If anything Grim Focus shouldn't be hitting as hard as Frags

They are a burst class; hence why you can hit Frags and curse consistently within the same GCD, and all sorcs need to do is get their opponent's health to 20% in order to kill their opponent so no Sorcs don't need to have Frags hit as hard as a magblades spectral bow.

And guess how much damage curse + current frags does together...here's a hint: Not much, and far less than what a Nightblade could potentially do.

Sorc needs to have a really really hard hitting frags, especially with how easy it is to avoid

The Frag+Curse combo puts most players in Fury range. I certainly wouldn't consider that to be weak. Not to mention the Nightblades are also known for their burst just like sorcs, but rather than stacking burst in one GCD the burst damage from Nightblades is sequential so it only makes sense that the Spectral Bow hits harder.

Does that make sense now that I've explained it that way? I'll just assume that you agree with me unless you tell me otherwise. Have a great day.

Most players are bad - they're the ones who die to a simple Frag+Curse+execute and balancing around them is a terrible idea. Some fellow further up listed sorc's 10% heal on Frags use to be a boon. It's true that it's better than nothing, but the heal is so negligible it might as well not exist anyway.

Frags: I'm getting a 17.6kish tooltip (factoring in the 10% boost), a 'heal', and minor prohpecy bonus.
Lash: Much lower damage (I think 11-12k tooltip?), but it's made up for by the strong heal. Slows too I suppose. Not sure how DK sustain is going tho.
Bow: Highest damage of the lot, 24k tooltip in the same setup as the sorc (w/zerk active). minor zerk applies to everything else, small amount of crit (~2%?). 28.8k dmg with the 20% boost if you like. Very reliable, can be proc'ed on a backbar (while Frags only procs off casts on the bar it's slotted in). Is available to the class with excellent offensive pressure compared to sorc's lack in that department.

Anyway, I don't think the skills should all be free. Nightblades definitely needed the hit - not sure about DK sustain, I don't play them as a pve dps. Tbh this was actually one of the few changes I agree with - relatively small, not game breaking, and they can wait 'n see what happens. Easily reversable and won't break the game if they reverse it. Maybe bow could use an extremely small damage nerf *shrug*

Edit: Not counting the other passives Grim Focus WOULD give, as I assume you've got Soul Harvest/Incap/whatever on your frontbar as well. If not, add the 10% crit bonus.

Second edit: Forgot about slotted skilled. Grim Focus' tooltip is closer to 25k, which comes out to 30k if you facotri nthe 20% buff. About as much as Frags + Curse.

Blood Magic needs a massive buff in my opinion. It's a joke right now

Somewhere

Daus wrote: »

Blood Magic needs a massive buff in my opinion. It's a joke right now

Largely because we really don't have an effective way to proc it. The proc condition either should be more general, and work on more than just dark magic, or be stronger. That or provide some different boon.

Maryal

this is an ability that cost resources to use and it lasts for 'x seconds.' The problem I have is that you 'pay' in resources to use this skill for 'x amount of time' in order to get the proc (you would only cast the skill for the proc because the other benefits occur by having the skill slotted). So, you've already 'paid' resources to have an opportunity to trigger the proc, but when you do trigger the proc (which you've already 'paid for') you have to pay resources again just to fire it off? Do you realize how much of a resource cost increase this actually turns out to be? If you trigger the proc only 2x during one cast, you've essentially doubled the cost of the skill.

edit: and .... another thing ... since you pay resources for the opportunity to trigger the proc, AND since combat is unpredictable (you never know what skill or ability you will have to use from moment to moment ... skills/abilities that cost resources) what if you don't have the resources to pay for the proc once it triggers?

ccfeeling

Maryal wrote: »

Grim Focus or Merciless Resolve .. either one is an ability that cost resources to use and it lasts for 'x seconds.' The problem I have is that you 'pay' in resources to use this skill for 'x amount of time' ... and during that time you have to pay resources AGAIN to use the proc. You can't opt out of the proc, you just have to not use the proc and let the skill expire. Even if you wait for the skill to expire, recasting it gives you the proc right back, meaning an extended delay in recasting it if you don't want (can't afford) the resources to continually use the proc. This makes no sense.

Correct .

Most of the non NB players still don't understand the Grim Focus mechanics , cost vs time vs player skills , they just watch the youtubes and complain about how easy the rotation , how NB OP , 56+ dps on parser test .

What I surprise Zos dev nerfed Grim Focus as well , lol .

Nowday , stamden does 57k dps , will zos nerf them too ? ROFL

HuawaSepp

ccfeeling wrote: »

Correct .

Most of the non NB players still don't understand the Grim Focus mechanics , cost vs time vs player skills , they just watch the youtubes and complain about how easy the rotation , how NB OP , 56+ dps on parser test .

Yeah, you can't compare a dummy parse to a real situation.
It's so much easier because you can always watch your buffs/dots and you can make merciless resolve a static componet in your rotation (every 6 sec/weaves)

Only the best could do this in other content because of their knowledge of the content and their top end healers and tanks.

leepalmer95

Daus wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

I would love if all three classes had the attack for free. However, I don't think all three should hit as hard as the MagBlade. Currently- my setups with DK, MagBlade, and Sorc are similar (Innate + Silk/War Maiden/Netch)

My DK's Power Lash hits for 11.5k but heals for 14k. Proccing it is also a little harder than the other two classes.
My Sorc's Frag proc hits for 14.5k and heals for 10% of my health. Proccing it is RNG based but somewhat high.
My NB's Spectral bow hits for 22k but doesn't heal. Proccing it is pretty easy.

So, DKs and Sorcs have side benefits to their proc- which means that they probably don't need to have the same damage as the NB.

Just my 2 cents worth.

I can cast frags way more frequently than I can with the Spectral Bow. There's no way these two abilities should do comparable damage

Sorc is supposed to be the burst class. If anything Grim Focus shouldn't be hitting as hard as Frags

They are a burst class; hence why you can hit Frags and curse consistently within the same GCD, and all sorcs need to do is get their opponent's health to 20% in order to kill their opponent so no Sorcs don't need to have Frags hit as hard as a magblades spectral bow.

And guess how much damage curse + current frags does together...here's a hint: Not much, and far less than what a Nightblade could potentially do.

Sorc needs to have a really really hard hitting frags, especially with how easy it is to avoid

The Frag+Curse combo puts most players in Fury range. I certainly wouldn't consider that to be weak. Not to mention the Nightblades are also known for their burst just like sorcs, but rather than stacking burst in one GCD the burst damage from Nightblades is sequential so it only makes sense that the Spectral Bow hits harder.

Does that make sense now that I've explained it that way? I'll just assume that you agree with me unless you tell me otherwise. Have a great day.

Not it doesn't.

May against light/ medium armour potato with no crit resist or such. But vs a heavy build with crit it's going to deal like 30-45% dmg at most. Even less if that have things like bloodspawn/ pirate skeleton or minor protection etc..

Zer0oo

buff sorc sustain are you insane, better nerf all other classes - devs 2018