Shields Should Crit

Haashhtaag

With allowing damage to crit on shields and shields having a 1 second cast time it is my opinion that upon casting your shields they should be able to crit as well thus granting you a much larger damage shield.

Increasing the duration does nothing in terms of making the shield better.

Valrien

"No"
-A Stamblade

VarisVaris

i agreee cause that cast time is horrible

Universe

Cast time or not, allowing damage shields to receive critical damage is unwise and it will ruin damage shields effectiveness in PVP.
Though making damage shields being able to crit(granting stronger damage shields) may result in damage shields being too strong.

Overall, the recent damage shields balancing issue is a total chaos.
Hopefully, ZOS will revert both the cast time and the critical damage to shields and adjust the damage shields in a more appropriate manner.

Galarthor

From a balance point of view with the recent changes changes to shield making them critable, shields should crit.
The whole reason why they could not so far was b/c they couldn't be critted themselves. Enabling one without the other is simply unbalanced.

You can illustrate this with a simple equation:

damage mitigated = damage dealt

If the game is balanced both sides need to be equal to cancel each other out and the decisive factor for winning then becomes skill & luck.

However, if you increase the damage dealt by a crit multiplier ("crit") the equation will no longer hold:

damage mitigated =/= damage dealt * crit

damage mitigated < damage dealt

Every change made to shields on PTS so far has been poorly to cater the forum cry babies with l2p issues and an aversion to fair fights seeking only easy kills.

1) cast time is just far from reality
2) giving shields resistences gives tanky heavy armor builds the strongest shields, making them even tankier
3) making shields critable (see above)

idk

First, not all shields have a cast time.
Second, and more importantly, the issue with the changes magicka based shields is not the crit part but the cast time.

The cast time alone makes shields very unusable most of the time so the crit factor is very much secondary.

shinikaze

Galarthor wrote: »

From a balance point of view with the recent changes changes to shield making them critable, shields should crit.
The whole reason why they could not so far was b/c they couldn't be critted themselves. Enabling one without the other is simply unbalanced.

You can illustrate this with a simple equation:

damage mitigated = damage dealt

If the game is balanced both sides need to be equal to cancel each other out and the decisive factor for winning then becomes skill & luck.

However, if you increase the damage dealt by a crit multiplier ("crit") the equation will no longer hold:

damage mitigated =/= damage dealt * crit

damage mitigated < damage dealt

Every change made to shields on PTS so far has been poorly to cater the forum cry babies with l2p issues and an aversion to fair fights seeking only easy kills.

1) cast time is just far from reality
2) giving shields resistences gives tanky heavy armor builds the strongest shields, making them even tankier
3) making shields critable (see above)

Cast time is plain stupid. I agree on that, but, critiable shield / resistant shield makes other build viable against casters (crit / pen based build).

How about reducing battle spirit to 25% instead of plainly cuting shields by half. this wont nerf pve while bufing pvp. Is that fair?

Galarthor

shinikaze wrote: »

Cast time is plain stupid. I agree on that, but, critiable shield / resistant shield makes other build viable against casters (crit / pen based build).

How about reducing battle spirit to 25% instead of plainly cuting shields by half. this wont nerf pve while bufing pvp. Is that fair?

Name me one build that got more viable against casters b/c shields are now affected by resistences?

And what is gained from increasing shield size to compensate for the fact that shields can be critted while they cannot crit themselves thus breaking the equation above? At best you increase shield size by the exactly right amount that offsets the additional damage from crits. But that means nothing really changes to the current live version of the shields. More likely you will endup over- or underbuffing shields thus making them too strong or too weak b/c you did not find the exact right amount of additional shield strength. So why go through all this trouble and make things more complicated, risking to screw things up?

Haashhtaag

Galarthor wrote: »

shinikaze wrote: »

Cast time is plain stupid. I agree on that, but, critiable shield / resistant shield makes other build viable against casters (crit / pen based build).

How about reducing battle spirit to 25% instead of plainly cuting shields by half. this wont nerf pve while bufing pvp. Is that fair?

Name me one build that got more viable against casters b/c shields are now affected by resistences?

And what is gained from increasing shield size to compensate for the fact that shields can be critted while they cannot crit themselves thus breaking the equation above? At best you increase shield size by the exactly right amount that offsets the additional damage from crits. But that means nothing really changes to the current live version of the shields. More likely you will endup over- or underbuffing shields thus making them too strong or too weak b/c you did not find the exact right amount of additional shield strength. So why go through all this trouble and make things more complicated, risking to screw things up?

Pretty much all builds that use bleeds, NBs, and etc

Skander

Shields can't crit.
Why?
Becouse there is no defile to lower them in the first place

Sy1ph5

Skander wrote: »

Shields can't crit.
Why?
Becouse there is no defile to lower them in the first place

Major/Minor Defile is the counter to major/minor mending. There are no player buffs to increase shield size, therefore it is balanced that there are no debuffs to decrease shield size.

Kelces

Sy1ph5 wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

Shields can't crit.
Why?
Becouse there is no defile to lower them in the first place

Major/Minor Defile is the counter to major/minor mending. There are no player buffs to increase shield size, therefore it is balanced that there are no debuffs to decrease shield size.

Actually there is something - it's called magicka pool. It's stated nowhere in any tooltip, but it is there: More max magicka, the larger is the shield. Most players of sorcerers who know about this therefore choose "the mage" as their mundus stone in PvP.

TheYKcid

Kelces wrote: »

Sy1ph5 wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

Shields can't crit.
Why?
Becouse there is no defile to lower them in the first place

Major/Minor Defile is the counter to major/minor mending. There are no player buffs to increase shield size, therefore it is balanced that there are no debuffs to decrease shield size.

Actually there is something - it's called magicka pool. It's stated nowhere in any tooltip, but it is there: More max magicka, the larger is the shield. Most players of sorcerers who know about this therefore choose "the mage" as their mundus stone in PvP.

You're making the wrong comparison. The poster you referenced was talking about buffs, not stat pools.

Yes, shields scale-off max mag. The same way heals scale-off max resources and damage. There's no asymmetry there.

In terms of buffs/debuffs, heals are boosted by vitality and mending, and reduced by defile. Shields are affected by neither, so once again there's no asymmetry.

When it comes to crits, however, shields can now be crit against, but cannot themselves crit for a larger shield size.

THAT is the comparison you should be making, and it clearly shows an asymmetric mechanic that disadvantages shields.

The whole point of the changes was to make "damage shields function more consistently with the rest of the game’s mechanics"—quoted verbatim from the PTS notes. So why follow-through with the process in a half-assed manner? That's not consistency. Why give shields only the drawbacks, but none of the strengths, with regard to the crit system?

Ass-backwards ZOS logic, that's why.

Sy1ph5

Kelces wrote: »

Sy1ph5 wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

Shields can't crit.
Why?
Becouse there is no defile to lower them in the first place

Major/Minor Defile is the counter to major/minor mending. There are no player buffs to increase shield size, therefore it is balanced that there are no debuffs to decrease shield size.

Actually there is something - it's called magicka pool. It's stated nowhere in any tooltip, but it is there: More max magicka, the larger is the shield. Most players of sorcerers who know about this therefore choose "the mage" as their mundus stone in PvP.

I wasn't aware max magicka was a player buff I mean if you wanna count warhorn be my guest . Also better tell all my m8s that run the serpent and attro that thier idiots because this whole time they could have had 500 more shield if they just picked the right mundus. Can we get a counter to warhorn lads #counterwarhorn

ezio45

shields receiving crit dmg is something we can talk about later, its not am immediate threat, keep test it see how it goes


if shields keep the one second cast time there unusable anyway

Minalan

Valrien wrote: »

"No"
-A Stamblade

I can't wait until ZOS gets around to adjusting your class. I'm betting Everyone left playing is going to cheer and applaud.

Sy1ph5

ezio45 wrote: »

shields receiving crit dmg is something we can talk about later, its not am immediate threat, keep test it see how it goes


if shields keep the one second cast time there unusable anyway

The crit changes ignore the symmetry in buffs and debuffs that has existed since the start of the game it is an immediate balance threat. The cast time changes aren't really a balance change they are just the removal of shields as useful skills for LA characters. This thread is about the crit change so let's not talk about the cast time change. Also Valrien is just a a tired magsorc main let him be in peace.

Galarthor

Haashhtaag wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

shinikaze wrote: »

Cast time is plain stupid. I agree on that, but, critiable shield / resistant shield makes other build viable against casters (crit / pen based build).

How about reducing battle spirit to 25% instead of plainly cuting shields by half. this wont nerf pve while bufing pvp. Is that fair?

Name me one build that got more viable against casters b/c shields are now affected by resistences?

And what is gained from increasing shield size to compensate for the fact that shields can be critted while they cannot crit themselves thus breaking the equation above? At best you increase shield size by the exactly right amount that offsets the additional damage from crits. But that means nothing really changes to the current live version of the shields. More likely you will endup over- or underbuffing shields thus making them too strong or too weak b/c you did not find the exact right amount of additional shield strength. So why go through all this trouble and make things more complicated, risking to screw things up?

Pretty much all builds that use bleeds, NBs, and etc

You do realize that shields on live have a resistence of 0 ....

Biro123

ezio45 wrote: »

shields receiving crit dmg is something we can talk about later, its not am immediate threat, keep test it see how it goes


if shields keep the one second cast time there unusable anyway

I think the crit change has the potential of having just as huge an impact as the cast time.

Nightfall12

I have an idea....but this would be an unpopular choice because we have had shields all along that allow shield users to dish out heavy damage. But i think they should scrap shields as we know it. Instead make them funtion more like 1 hand and shield skills. But instead of stamina use magica, much like blocking with a frost staff.
step one scrap ice staff tanking.....revert to ice staff damage
step 2 eliminate block casting for everything
Step 3 make every current shield skill a burst of magica regen.
step 4 make slotting a shield skill mean you can now block and use magica to do so, while Magica blocking it creates an impenetrable force field, AKA NO damage. Immune invulnerable...however you would not be able to attack while doing so, and you would drain magica as you did. if you hit that shiled skill first you would get that burst of regen to absorb more damage


This would make it so healers are still needed if you were struck when dropping block to attack.

I know every DD in the game that has be killing it so far will hate this, but thats what happens when you need to balance PvP and PvE at the same time.......so you could instead just break those to apart.....

idk

Biro123 wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

shields receiving crit dmg is something we can talk about later, its not am immediate threat, keep test it see how it goes


if shields keep the one second cast time there unusable anyway

I think the crit change has the potential of having just as huge an impact as the cast time.

The cast time could render the crit chance irrelevant.

Emma_Overload

Not only should shields crit, but the same CP that increases crit heals should ALSO increase crit shields!

Sy1ph5

Nightfall12 wrote: »

I have an idea....but this would be an unpopular choice because we have had shields all along that allow shield users to dish out heavy damage. But i think they should scrap shields as we know it. Instead make them funtion more like 1 hand and shield skills. But instead of stamina use magica, much like blocking with a frost staff.
step one scrap ice staff tanking.....revert to ice staff damage
step 2 eliminate block casting for everything
Step 3 make every current shield skill a burst of magica regen.
step 4 make slotting a shield skill mean you can now block and use magica to do so, while Magica blocking it creates an impenetrable force field, AKA NO damage. Immune invulnerable...however you would not be able to attack while doing so, and you would drain magica as you did. if you hit that shiled skill first you would get that burst of regen to absorb more damage


This would make it so healers are still needed if you were struck when dropping block to attack.

I know every DD in the game that has be killing it so far will hate this, but thats what happens when you need to balance PvP and PvE at the same time.......so you could instead just break those to apart.....

ZoS doesn't care for your suggestions they want feedback on the changes they make.

Damage shields aren't OP on live. shieldstacking isn't OP on live. Damage shields sound OP when described in a vacuum without considering how they the sorcerer class and magicka builds in general function in PvP.

People assume they know what ZoS wants to accomplish with a particular change but they don't only ZoS does. The only thing ZoS wants is to know if you think the changes they make are good ones.

And lastly no changes to survivability of dps will make healers more or less nessecary. Healers either add enough group dps through healer unique buffs and debuffs or the content is reworked to put less focus on dps. And what happened to play as you want why shove the trinity down our throats in four man content.

BlackMadara

Shields being able to crit would not be a good change. That would be similar to allowing blocking to crit for more mitigation, or passive dodge chance, which they are removing. There is always asymmetry between defense and offense in this game. Defensive mechanics cost more, don't scale as well, and/or stop regen. That is because being offensive is incentivized. It is also like this in any competitive combat based sport. "Stalling" (or being excessively defensive) is punished.

Galarthor

BlackMadara wrote: »

Shields being able to crit would not be a good change. That would be similar to allowing blocking to crit for more mitigation, or passive dodge chance, which they are removing. There is always asymmetry between defense and offense in this game. Defensive mechanics cost more, don't scale as well, and/or stop regen. That is because being offensive is incentivized. It is also like this in any competitive combat based sport. "Stalling" (or being excessively defensive) is punished.

....

Block and Dodge are completely different concepts. They mitigate a relative amount of damage and do not have an upper limit. THAT'S the reason why they don't crit.

Shields are like heals and mitigate an absolute amount of damage and do have an upper limit. That's why heals can crit and why shields should be able to crit now that they can be critted.

IAVITNI

Galarthor wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

Shields being able to crit would not be a good change. That would be similar to allowing blocking to crit for more mitigation, or passive dodge chance, which they are removing. There is always asymmetry between defense and offense in this game. Defensive mechanics cost more, don't scale as well, and/or stop regen. That is because being offensive is incentivized. It is also like this in any competitive combat based sport. "Stalling" (or being excessively defensive) is punished.

....

Block and Dodge are completely different concepts. They mitigate a relative amount of damage and do not have an upper limit. THAT'S the reason why they don't crit.

Shields are like heals and mitigate an absolute amount of damage and do have an upper limit. That's why heals can crit and why shields should be able to crit now that they can be critted.

I normally don't agree with Galarthor [don't think I've explicitly stated this since it's mostly opinionated differences and our concerns hardly overlap] but DAAAAAAAMN.

Perfect explanation.

Why people even need this to be explained is beyond me.

ccfeeling

I like shield critical idea , lol .
Good for my DK tank ~