Why the shield changes are actually terrible and how to properly fix shields

Teias

So as probably all Magicka-Players, im not a huge fan of the announced damage shield changes.
But i would like to explain why these changes aren't the correct solution and i would also like to show my own ideas, on how to nerf damage-shields in a way, that both sides of the combat can agree to them.

First of all, the idea of adding a cast time and increasing the duration of the shields contradicts previous changes.
For example, in a previous patch the duration of all damage shield abilites has been set to 6 seconds for consistency between all shields. Conjured Ward and Annulment stand out there with a different duration, and especially the cast time.
Also the cast-time of such an important self-defense ability such as a damage shield just doesn't fit in a "past paced combat system" as it has been called my Zenimax on multiple occasions.
With the current situation on PTS, shields have been basically killed for mid-fight. You can almost only use them pre-fight to protect yourself before the actual combat happens, but during the fight, you have pretty much no time to effectively cast an ability with a one-second-cast-time to protect yourself.
The same goes for PVE. Because of their generally low resistances, magicka/light-armor users rely on a damage shield for self-protection in certain situations. Considering how fast these situations occur, a one-second-cast-time renders shields close to useless in pve aswell, since you just dont have the time to cast them.

But instead of just complaining, i would propose some solutions myself aswell, that should fix the problems shields currently have.
As correctly stated by Zenimax, shields are a powerful ability that currently come with almost no downsides. As a magicka-player you can invest a lot into ressources, that increase your damage-output without sacrificing your survivability that comes with your shield. The two main "exploits" being shield-stacking and shield-spamming.

Stacking shields can increase your effective health-pool significantly, without sacrifing your damage-potential. An easy and extremely straight-forward approach would be to make self-applied shields non-stackable. The current situation is, that you can't stack shields of the same source (so casting Conjured Ward twice doesnt give you two shields, but the second cast just refreshes the shield). In addition with my proposed change, the same thing would be the case, when you cast for example Conjured Ward and after that cast Annulment. The casting from Annulment would overwrite the Conjured Ward. But it is important that this only works for self-applied shields, for two reasons.
First: It leaves you with control over your main damage-shield. Lets say you cast Conjured Ward and a dragon knight close to you casts obsidian-shield, which not only grants himself a damage-shield, but up to five close allies a shield aswell. Said shield for the allies is a lot weaker than Conjured Ward, meaning the obsidian-shield would actually be the opposite of being helpful, since it would then replace the Conjured Ward, if you couldnt stack any kind of shields.
Second: By still allowing to stack shields with yourself as the target, but that have been casted by allies, you incourage teamplay since it still leaves you the option to protect your friends with abilities such as obsidian-shield, steadfast-ward etc... and makes this kind of play even more important, since now you cant stack shields without the help of someone else.

The second big problem currently is shield-spamming, meaning that you can just cast a new shield as soon as your old is about to break and usually still being able to deal sicnificant amounts of damage in between. For the other Person, having to fight such an opponent, this is understandably frustrating fighting someone, without even touching his actual health-points.
To fix this, i would propose increasing the magicka-cost of damage-shield-abilities by 50%, when they are cast again within four seconds. Please note, that especially the exact values are just rough estimates by myself and dont have to be the best values for this type of change. The system itself has worked with Bolt Escape aswell, where overusing the ability comes with a heavy toll on your magicka-sustain, so this should work for shields aswell. It still leaves you with the ability to effectively use a damage-shield mid-fight, as opposed to the approach with the cast-time, but just mindlessly spamming it will quickly drain your magicka-pool.
But I would like to add, that this 50% increase in magicka-cost should be applied aswell, even if you use a different kind of damage-shield. Sorcerers for example could just alternate between Conjured Ward and Annulment and would then basically half the time they have to wait to cast another damage-shield without receiving a penalty.

But obviously i would like to hear other peoples opinion on my ideas. To be honest, i rarely play PVP so these are just theories that i thought would get rid of the currently existing problems without changing too much of the current playstyle of damage-shield-users but still be fair for all sides of the battlefield in pvp, and for pve aswell.

bardx86

Teias wrote: »

So as probably all Magicka-Players, im not a huge fan of the announced damage shield changes.
But i would like to explain why these changes aren't the correct solution and i would also like to show my own ideas, on how to nerf damage-shields in a way, that both sides of the combat can agree to them.

First of all, the idea of adding a cast time and increasing the duration of the shields contradicts previous changes.
For example, in a previous patch the duration of all damage shield abilites has been set to 6 seconds for consistency between all shields. Conjured Ward and Annulment stand out there with a different duration, and especially the cast time.
Also the cast-time of such an important self-defense ability such as a damage shield just doesn't fit in a "past paced combat system" as it has been called my Zenimax on multiple occasions.
With the current situation on PTS, shields have been basically killed for mid-fight. You can almost only use them pre-fight to protect yourself before the actual combat happens, but during the fight, you have pretty much no time to effectively cast an ability with a one-second-cast-time to protect yourself.
The same goes for PVE. Because of their generally low resistances, magicka/light-armor users rely on a damage shield for self-protection in certain situations. Considering how fast these situations occur, a one-second-cast-time renders shields close to useless in pve aswell, since you just dont have the time to cast them.

But instead of just complaining, i would propose some solutions myself aswell, that should fix the problems shields currently have.
As correctly stated by Zenimax, shields are a powerful ability that currently come with almost no downsides. As a magicka-player you can invest a lot into ressources, that increase your damage-output without sacrificing your survivability that comes with your shield. The two main "exploits" being shield-stacking and shield-spamming.

Stacking shields can increase your effective health-pool significantly, without sacrifing your damage-potential. An easy and extremely straight-forward approach would be to make self-applied shields non-stackable. The current situation is, that you can't stack shields of the same source (so casting Conjured Ward twice doesnt give you two shields, but the second cast just refreshes the shield). In addition with my proposed change, the same thing would be the case, when you cast for example Conjured Ward and after that cast Annulment. The casting from Annulment would overwrite the Conjured Ward. But it is important that this only works for self-applied shields, for two reasons.
First: It leaves you with control over your main damage-shield. Lets say you cast Conjured Ward and a dragon knight close to you casts obsidian-shield, which not only grants himself a damage-shield, but up to five close allies a shield aswell. Said shield for the allies is a lot weaker than Conjured Ward, meaning the obsidian-shield would actually be the opposite of being helpful, since it would then replace the Conjured Ward, if you couldnt stack any kind of shields.
Second: By still allowing to stack shields with yourself as the target, but that have been casted by allies, you incourage teamplay since it still leaves you the option to protect your friends with abilities such as obsidian-shield, steadfast-ward etc... and makes this kind of play even more important, since now you cant stack shields without the help of someone else.

The second big problem currently is shield-spamming, meaning that you can just cast a new shield as soon as your old is about to break and usually still being able to deal sicnificant amounts of damage in between. For the other Person, having to fight such an opponent, this is understandably frustrating fighting someone, without even touching his actual health-points.
To fix this, i would propose increasing the magicka-cost of damage-shield-abilities by 50%, when they are cast again within four seconds. Please note, that especially the exact values are just rough estimates by myself and dont have to be the best values for this type of change. The system itself has worked with Bolt Escape aswell, where overusing the ability comes with a heavy toll on your magicka-sustain, so this should work for shields aswell. It still leaves you with the ability to effectively use a damage-shield mid-fight, as opposed to the approach with the cast-time, but just mindlessly spamming it will quickly drain your magicka-pool.
But I would like to add, that this 50% increase in magicka-cost should be applied aswell, even if you use a different kind of damage-shield. Sorcerers for example could just alternate between Conjured Ward and Annulment and would then basically half the time they have to wait to cast another damage-shield without receiving a penalty.

But obviously i would like to hear other peoples opinion on my ideas. To be honest, i rarely play PVP so these are just theories that i thought would get rid of the currently existing problems without changing too much of the current playstyle of damage-shield-users but still be fair for all sides of the battlefield in pvp, and for pve aswell.

Im sorry but you don't have any idea what you are talking about. Sorcs have to invest into 2 sustain sets to maintain shields to be competitive. This directly effects their damage output, so yes there is a huge trade off. Adding an increased cost to shield is a horrible idea. I don't get to control how much damage is heading my way and if i have to cast shield again why should i be penalized for that? I don't want to die and I don't have better option to mitigate damage. The cost increase to Bolt hasn't worked well either thats just false. Removing that would be a step in the right direction in fixing the Sorc sustain issues.

idk

The simple solution would be give shields that scale off magicka the Sorc Streak treatment. Provide a debuff that reduces the next shield by X amount or increases it's cost. That debuff remains on the character until 4 seconds after the last shield dissipates or is destroyed.

Of course the timing of that debuff can vary and the amount of added cost or reduced effectiveness of shields would have to be determined. It would hinder shield stacking and constant use of shields. I think the timing should not exceed 4 seconds though since the effectiveness or cost does quickly increase.

This has been suggested in various means by other players and placed in the feedback threads on the PTS area.

bardx86

idk wrote: »

The simple solution would be give shields that scale off magicka the Sorc Streak treatment. Provide a debuff that reduces the next shield by X amount or increases it's cost. That debuff remains on the character until 4 seconds after the last shield dissipates or is destroyed.

Of course the timing of that debuff can vary and the amount of added cost or reduced effectiveness of shields would have to be determined. It would hinder shield stacking and constant use of shields. I think the timing should not exceed 4 seconds though since the effectiveness or cost does quickly increase.

This has been suggested in various means by other players and placed in the feedback threads on the PTS area.

So any heal, BOL, vigor, cloak, shimmering shields, flappy wings would also need an increase in cost.

Teias

idk wrote: »

This has been suggested in various means by other players and placed in the feedback threads on the PTS area.

I havent read all Threads about the shield changes yet (but to be fair, there are a lot ) so i might havent seen the "increase magicka cost after multiple uses"-idea yet. But i think this further underlines the idea itself, when multiple people came up with independently from one another.

idk wrote: »

The simple solution would be give shields that scale off magicka the Sorc Streak treatment. Provide a debuff that reduces the next shield by X amount or increases it's cost. That debuff remains on the character until 4 seconds after the last shield dissipates or is destroyed.

The Idea with a decreased shield instead of increased magicka cost is a nice idea aswell with the same effect (penalizing shield spam) but in pvp you might be caught in a downwards spirale. Since your second damage shield would be weaker than the previous (if it is casted within the certain time-span), it doesnt hold as long as the unpunished shield in combat. This would result in the fact, that you have to cast a third shield even sooner than before. So this approach is a bit more radical (and maybe even too much), but still worth a thought.

oxygen_thief

Teias wrote: »

As correctly stated by Zenimax, shields are a powerful ability that currently come with almost no downsides. As a magicka-player you can invest a lot into ressources, that increase your damage-output without sacrificing your survivability that comes with your shield. The two main "exploits" being shield-stacking and shield-spamming.

why do you people keep typing this nonsense? you need to sacrifice your health and your stamina to get huge shields. smaller health pool means you are more vulnerable to the oblivion damage, your execute range comes faster. without stamina well should i explain what does stamina mean in pvp? furthermore you need a really good sustain to spam shields every other second thus you need to sacrifice some other stats for recovery.

kojou

Just making Annulment and Ward not stack would fix most problems...

I would also prefer that they also reduce the shield value by 15% rather than increase the cost or cast time. Last thing I want is another resource drain post Morrowind.

usmcjdking

IMO if shields are going to get a cast time, then the base shield should have it's total amount halved (subsequently removing the shield redux from Battle Spirit) and then make it like it used to be.


Shields make you immune to DOT damage. Cut the duration to 6 seconds globally for all shields.

ezio45

ill take the not stacking but cost is a no go, sustain on sorc is already terrible

Kanar

It's sad to see some sorcs refuse to admit their shields need a nerf, to the point that they turn on and attack a fellow sorc who is trying to at least be helpful and propose an alternate nerf.

To OP, the devs also wanted the usage of shields to cause a DPS loss. Your proposal does not seem to address this, so how would you make shielding cause a DPS loss?

LiquidPony

Kanar wrote: »

It's sad to see some sorcs refuse to admit their shields need a nerf, to the point that they turn on and attack a fellow sorc who is trying to at least be helpful and propose an alternate nerf.

To OP, the devs also wanted the usage of shields to cause a DPS loss. Your proposal does not seem to address this, so how would you make shielding cause a DPS loss?

Usage of shields is a DPS loss already ... you're using a GCD to cast it and using up resources. Same as roll-dodging.

If the cost scaled up on multiple casts, it would be a larger DPS loss because it would kill sustain.

Also, OP: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/437251/shield-fatigue

Kanar

LiquidPony wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

It's sad to see some sorcs refuse to admit their shields need a nerf, to the point that they turn on and attack a fellow sorc who is trying to at least be helpful and propose an alternate nerf.

To OP, the devs also wanted the usage of shields to cause a DPS loss. Your proposal does not seem to address this, so how would you make shielding cause a DPS loss?

Usage of shields is a DPS loss already ... you're using a GCD to cast it and using up resources. Same as roll-dodging.

If the cost scaled up on multiple casts, it would be a larger DPS loss because it would kill sustain.

Also, OP: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/437251/shield-fatigue

1 GCD is barely a DPS loss, and have you ever roll dodged? Are you aware you can't use abilities while doing so?

LiquidPony

Kanar wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

It's sad to see some sorcs refuse to admit their shields need a nerf, to the point that they turn on and attack a fellow sorc who is trying to at least be helpful and propose an alternate nerf.

To OP, the devs also wanted the usage of shields to cause a DPS loss. Your proposal does not seem to address this, so how would you make shielding cause a DPS loss?

Usage of shields is a DPS loss already ... you're using a GCD to cast it and using up resources. Same as roll-dodging.

If the cost scaled up on multiple casts, it would be a larger DPS loss because it would kill sustain.

Also, OP: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/437251/shield-fatigue

1 GCD is barely a DPS loss, and have you ever roll dodged? Are you aware you can't use abilities while doing so?

You can't use abilities while casting a shield, either. Roll-dodging takes 1 GCD. Casting a shield takes 1 GCD. What's your point?

And in either case, it's not just the GCD. It's the use of resources. Go do a skeleton parse and roll-dodge or cast a shield in the middle of it. It's not "barely" a DPS loss. It's significant.

bardx86

Kanar wrote: »

It's sad to see some sorcs refuse to admit their shields need a nerf, to the point that they turn on and attack a fellow sorc who is trying to at least be helpful and propose an alternate nerf.

To OP, the devs also wanted the usage of shields to cause a DPS loss. Your proposal does not seem to address this, so how would you make shielding cause a DPS loss?

Its sad to see some players still think shields are still OP.

katorga

Make all shields scale off heath so it is a choice, build for defense or offense. Scaling off the offensive stat is the issue, not cast time, stacking, or anything else. It is why they reverted a change to boneshield to scale off stamina, many PTS's ago.

For sorc's make it player health + pet health or buff the +health% when pet is active passive to encourage them to use pets for bigger shields (heck, ZOS has been trying to make pets viable and get people to use them for years).

Hardly anyone builds around health based shields for pvp. It is self limiting, to stack enough health to make the shield viable you become unable to do any damage.

Darkenarlol

shields are not broken

but you know...SOON(c) =D


just imagine that dodge and cloack negates all incoming heals like mist form

like it negates incoming single target damage (and after stamina players s%*&storm they change it to only negating direct

heals like vigor and rally but you get ticks from ground aoe heals so your healer spamming springs

won't feel like he is *useless*)

bardx86

katorga wrote: »

Make all shields scale off heath so it is a choice, build for defense or offense. Scaling off the offensive stat is the issue, not cast time, stacking, or anything else. It is why they reverted a change to boneshield to scale off stamina, many PTS's ago.

For sorc's make it player health + pet health or buff the +health% when pet is active passive to encourage them to use pets for bigger shields (heck, ZOS has been trying to make pets viable and get people to use them for years).

Hardly anyone builds around health based shields for pvp. It is self limiting, to stack enough health to make the shield viable you become unable to do any damage.

then all healing would have to be based off health

VaranisArano

katorga wrote: »

Make all shields scale off heath so it is a choice, build for defense or offense. Scaling off the offensive stat is the issue, not cast time, stacking, or anything else. It is why they reverted a change to boneshield to scale off stamina, many PTS's ago.

For sorc's make it player health + pet health or buff the +health% when pet is active passive to encourage them to use pets for bigger shields (heck, ZOS has been trying to make pets viable and get people to use them for years).

Hardly anyone builds around health based shields for pvp. It is self limiting, to stack enough health to make the shield viable you become unable to do any damage.

The last time health-scaling shields were any good, ZOS nerfed Igneous Shields quick because high health tanks were using it to carry their groups through vet content.

mr_wazzabi

LiquidPony wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

It's sad to see some sorcs refuse to admit their shields need a nerf, to the point that they turn on and attack a fellow sorc who is trying to at least be helpful and propose an alternate nerf.

To OP, the devs also wanted the usage of shields to cause a DPS loss. Your proposal does not seem to address this, so how would you make shielding cause a DPS loss?

Usage of shields is a DPS loss already ... you're using a GCD to cast it and using up resources. Same as roll-dodging.

If the cost scaled up on multiple casts, it would be a larger DPS loss because it would kill sustain.

Also, OP: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/437251/shield-fatigue

1 GCD is barely a DPS loss, and have you ever roll dodged? Are you aware you can't use abilities while doing so?

You can't use abilities while casting a shield, either. Roll-dodging takes 1 GCD. Casting a shield takes 1 GCD. What's your point?

And in either case, it's not just the GCD. It's the use of resources. Go do a skeleton parse and roll-dodge or cast a shield in the middle of it. It's not "barely" a DPS loss. It's significant.

The animation of a roll dodge takes longer than that of a shield on live.

idk

Teias wrote: »

idk wrote: »

This has been suggested in various means by other players and placed in the feedback threads on the PTS area.

I havent read all Threads about the shield changes yet (but to be fair, there are a lot ) so i might havent seen the "increase magicka cost after multiple uses"-idea yet. But i think this further underlines the idea itself, when multiple people came up with independently from one another.

idk wrote: »

The simple solution would be give shields that scale off magicka the Sorc Streak treatment. Provide a debuff that reduces the next shield by X amount or increases it's cost. That debuff remains on the character until 4 seconds after the last shield dissipates or is destroyed.

The Idea with a decreased shield instead of increased magicka cost is a nice idea aswell with the same effect (penalizing shield spam) but in pvp you might be caught in a downwards spirale. Since your second damage shield would be weaker than the previous (if it is casted within the certain time-span), it doesnt hold as long as the unpunished shield in combat. This would result in the fact, that you have to cast a third shield even sooner than before. So this approach is a bit more radical (and maybe even too much), but still worth a thought.

Essentially it is an either or for Zos to choose from. Personally I prefer reduced shields with a stacking debuff. Smaller less effective shield would serve PvP better as a shield stacker eventually has a very small shield.

It serves the purpose the devs are stating is their intention while still leaving shields useful in both PvP and PvE.

oxygen_thief

Kanar wrote: »

It's sad to see some sorcs refuse to admit their shields need a nerf, to the point that they turn on and attack a fellow sorc who is trying to at least be helpful and propose an alternate nerf.

Its really sad to read nonsense from lead gameplay designer who knows nothing about classes and their specific. What kind of game it will be with such devs? As a sorc I would like to rid off from shields at all but there's no way to do it now. They should redesign the class completely to give us a real choice but zos are too lazy for that or iam afraid too incompetent.

Biro123

idk wrote: »

Teias wrote: »

idk wrote: »

This has been suggested in various means by other players and placed in the feedback threads on the PTS area.

I havent read all Threads about the shield changes yet (but to be fair, there are a lot ) so i might havent seen the "increase magicka cost after multiple uses"-idea yet. But i think this further underlines the idea itself, when multiple people came up with independently from one another.

idk wrote: »

The simple solution would be give shields that scale off magicka the Sorc Streak treatment. Provide a debuff that reduces the next shield by X amount or increases it's cost. That debuff remains on the character until 4 seconds after the last shield dissipates or is destroyed.

The Idea with a decreased shield instead of increased magicka cost is a nice idea aswell with the same effect (penalizing shield spam) but in pvp you might be caught in a downwards spirale. Since your second damage shield would be weaker than the previous (if it is casted within the certain time-span), it doesnt hold as long as the unpunished shield in combat. This would result in the fact, that you have to cast a third shield even sooner than before. So this approach is a bit more radical (and maybe even too much), but still worth a thought.

Essentially it is an either or for Zos to choose from. Personally I prefer reduced shields with a stacking debuff. Smaller less effective shield would serve PvP better as a shield stacker eventually has a very small shield.

It serves the purpose the devs are stating is their intention while still leaving shields useful in both PvP and PvE.

I can't see that working either..

My sorc' in pyjamas already gets hit for 17k snipes.
Now that crits and resists count on shields, my shield will take 17k damage.
My hardened ward is around 13k.
So already, someone spamming snipe Vs someone spamming the strongest shield in game (assuming it really is a 1 sec CD), means taking 4k damage per second. (Not taking into account dots, light attacks, glyph procs).
In that instance, there is 0 reason to use the shield. It won't save you and it leaves you no time to take any other action.

I guess I'm trying to illustrate that fine line between viable and useless.

I mean yeah, will have to add more resists, more impen, health etc.. but that's not gonna happen without losing max mag -making those shields smaller already.

I don't think talk about making shields inherently smaller helps at all.