Alternative shield nerfs

MLGProPlayer

I don't think anyone disagrees that shields are overtuned. They need a rework. They make stamina classes undesirable in endgame PvE and allow players to become unkillable raid bosses in PvP. However, despite all this, they are a necessity in this game due to how it is designed (1-shot mechanics in PvE endgame necessitate shielding or dodging).

Unfortunately, in typical ZOS scorched earth fashion, they have decided to completely gut shields rather than rework them in a meaningful way.

So, let's use this thread to coalesce alternatives to ZOS' proposed nerf of adding a cast time to shields.

A few suggestions I have:

- Remove shield stacking by making stronger shields simply overwrite weaker ones, rather than adding to them (this solves the problem of shield stacking in PvP); however, as another poster pointed out, this destroys any abilities that grant smaller shields

- Increase the magicka cost of shields and reduce the magicka recovered with Harness Magicka (this makes it more costly to spam shields in PvE); this forces players to make an actual cost-benefit analysis where applying too many shields reduces damage potential.

Tonturri

I'm interested to see some math behind how exactly shields are overtuned compared to other defensive options across the classes, or at least some sort of look at 'em that goes beyond 'they can stack' and 'they're too strong'.

I don't think they're overtuned, but I do think they need a rework. I've found them perfectly fine, balance wise, but that balance is like an extremely convoluted Dwemer construct weighing scales, or one of those engineering creations where the thing is held up by its own stress.

Shield stacking. Why do you think shields should be unable to stack, while everyone else is free to layer a shield if they have one, plus whatever HoTs they have, higher resistance than your average shield user, dodge rolling if they have it, whatever...and so on. A stamina warden has Vigor, Rally/FW, more resistance, a class heal/lotus/whatever they're using, possibly troll king or some defensive monster set that doesn't work on shields because I am still slightly bitter about pirate skeleton, and then dodging/blocking depending on if med armor or heavy, etc etc.

Meanwhile, that shield is up and while it's up, unless the shielder has taken health dmg before it went up they've got nothing under that shield. Blocking doesn't decrease damage taken to the shield. Healing while at full health is a waste of resources. Dodge rolling means the shield doesn't take damage, and in that case why have the shield in the first place. Depending on the class there are varying amounts of HoTs (from quite a couple to...well, zero) under the shield.

And the shield is gone in six seconds - as in, it can be wasted. Health healed is health healed, and it doesn't disappear after a duration. Though it's true that against a competent opponent your shields really shouldn't have anything left once they expire. Anyway.

Magicka cost and harness - goodness gracious I totally agree about Harness Magicka. I wish they'd just removed the resource return from harness, let things proc against shields that didn't proc before, and then let things settle a bit. But alas. Anyway, I'm pretty interested in resources consumed per point of damage mitigated assuming perfect conditions comparison. A shield is a flat amount (I generally see around 12k or so, maybe 13k. No crit and is 'absolute' - can't be layered with other defenses very easily, except other shields). I'm pretty sure templar HtD can go over 12k relatively easily. It may go under sometimes, but it also goes over. Vigor as well - costs just bit more than Hardened Ward but I'd be interested to see how much damage it heals up - crits included.

Also, it's important to look at why shields are (supposedly) OP in PvE vs PvP. In PvE I totally agree that something needs changing, but it could easily just be that ZOS keeps making boss fights that favor magicka - that wouldn't really be a shield problem.

And lastly, what about itemization? Being limited to only magicka to boost up your shield is pretty limiting in what armor sets you can wear. Versus a heal benefitting from both a max stat and weapon or spell damage, plus other boosts and stuff. While shields don't have all that much uppnig their value in comparison.

Edit: Tbh I was gonna copy and paste the same build onto a sorcerer and a templar and then compare values, but uesp seems to be a bit wonky (didn't show a healing boost when I checked minor mending, for example), and I didn't really want to do the rest of the math (to, say, factor in the Mending passive).


TLDR: Shields are not overtuned but they need a rework. Gotta ensure that the motivation behind a change is correct, else you can end up with a change that makes things worse. Sort of like now, where ZOS is trying to change AND nerf shields, when they just need to change them.

Biro123

Thread starts with an incorrect assumption.

joaaocaampos

I prefer if Annulment and Conjured Ward have stacking cost increase as Bolt Escape have.

• Casting (Conjured Ward or Annulment) again within 5 seconds cost 35% more Magicka.

Strider__Roshin

I for one am loving the changes to damage shields!

https://youtu.be/UWLIgjB9gGw

profundidob16_ESO

If they really want to keep the shield skill as an "oh-***" button in the game that is fine and understandable I guess as some fights are designed to require one currently and pvp would leave mage classes powerless without anything to counter resistance builds. So as an "oh ***" emergency shield it cannot have a cast time by definition but must have a CD time instead to avoid abuse such as spamming.

Stacking shields is not acceptable in any way. Whenever 1 shield is active another should only be able to replace/refresh the first, not stack with it !

Biro123

Thread starts with an incorrect assumption.

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

If they really want to keep the shield skill as an "oh-***" button in the game that is fine and understandable I guess as some fights are designed to require one currently and pvp would leave mage classes powerless without anything to counter resistance builds. So as an "oh ***" emergency shield it cannot have a cast time by definition but must have a CD time instead to avoid abuse such as spamming.

Stacking shields is not acceptable in any way. Whenever 1 shield is active another should only be able to replace/refresh the first, not stack with it !

Same with hots.. Whenever one hot is active, you should only be able to replace/refresh the first, not stack with it.

profundidob16_ESO

Biro123 wrote: »

Thread starts with an incorrect assumption.

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

If they really want to keep the shield skill as an "oh-***" button in the game that is fine and understandable I guess as some fights are designed to require one currently and pvp would leave mage classes powerless without anything to counter resistance builds. So as an "oh ***" emergency shield it cannot have a cast time by definition but must have a CD time instead to avoid abuse such as spamming.

Stacking shields is not acceptable in any way. Whenever 1 shield is active another should only be able to replace/refresh the first, not stack with it !

Same with hots.. Whenever one hot is active, you should only be able to replace/refresh the first, not stack with it.

exactly ! A good healer won't suffer from this because he mixes different sources of hot and direct healing but a dps multi-hotting and shield himself up and then release all burst dmge and ulti is just...broken

Kanar

What about instead of a cast time, there is a 1 - 2s window after shielding during which you can't use any skill?

profundidob16_ESO

Kanar wrote: »

What about instead of a cast time, there is a 1 - 2s window after shielding during which you can't use any skill?

hey, that's exactly what I just proposed. CD (="Cool Down timer") stands for exactly that.

MLGProPlayer

Biro123 wrote: »

Thread starts with an incorrect assumption.

There is a reason why stamina characters don't get taken into vet trials. Magicka simply has much higher survivability on live.

Of course, this is all about to change if the PTS goes live, and magicka will be the spec that gets completely dropped.

Kanar

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Thread starts with an incorrect assumption.

There is a reason why stamina characters don't get taken into vet trials. Magicka simply has much higher survivability on live.

Of course, this is all about to change if the PTS goes live, and magicka will be the spec that gets completely dropped.

The new trials are ranged-biased and that isn't changing. Trials will have a healer running Gossamer, and magicka will still be needed for ranged damage but maybe stam will be able to participate with bow/bow.

usmguy1234

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

I don't think anyone disagrees that shields are overtuned. They need a rework. They make stamina classes undesirable in endgame PvE and allow players to become unkillable raid bosses in PvP. However, despite all this, they are a necessity in this game due to how it is designed (1-shot mechanics in PvE endgame necessitate shielding or dodging).

Unfortunately, in typical ZOS scorched earth fashion, they have decided to completely gut shields rather than rework them in a meaningful way.

So, let's use this thread to coalesce alternatives to ZOS' proposed nerf of adding a cast time to shields.

A few suggestions I have:

- Remove shield stacking by making stronger shields simply overwrite weaker ones, rather than adding to them (this solves the problem of shield stacking in PvP); however, as another poster pointed out, this destroys any abilities that grant smaller shields

- Increase the magicka cost of shields and reduce the magicka recovered with Harness Magicka (this makes it more costly to spam shields in PvE); this forces players to make an actual cost-benefit analysis where applying too many shields reduces damage potential.

Waiting for the data behind your initial claim... until then, it's just conjecture.

pieratsos

Daus wrote: »

I for one am loving the changes to damage shields!

https://youtu.be/UWLIgjB9gGw

Yeah we all know that. You've kind of become a meme in the past few months if u havent noticed.

LiquidPony

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

I don't think anyone disagrees that shields are overtuned. They need a rework. They make stamina classes undesirable in endgame PvE and allow players to become unkillable raid bosses in PvP. However, despite all this, they are a necessity in this game due to how it is designed (1-shot mechanics in PvE endgame necessitate shielding or dodging).

Unfortunately, in typical ZOS scorched earth fashion, they have decided to completely gut shields rather than rework them in a meaningful way.

So, let's use this thread to coalesce alternatives to ZOS' proposed nerf of adding a cast time to shields.

A few suggestions I have:

- Remove shield stacking by making stronger shields simply overwrite weaker ones, rather than adding to them (this solves the problem of shield stacking in PvP); however, as another poster pointed out, this destroys any abilities that grant smaller shields

- Increase the magicka cost of shields and reduce the magicka recovered with Harness Magicka (this makes it more costly to spam shields in PvE); this forces players to make an actual cost-benefit analysis where applying too many shields reduces damage potential.

It's basically impossible to even propose an alternative change to shields right now because you're just going to get drowned out by a bunch of people screaming "SHIELDS DON'T NEED NERFED TO BEGIN WITH, IF YOU EVEN PLAYED A SORC IN PVP YOU'D UNDERSTAND."

However, it does seem that ZOS is convinced that shields need to be nerfed, so I applaud the effort in coming up with alternative changes. Because the cast time sucks. It is an awful, no good, very bad change and I think they can do better.

joaaocaampos wrote: »

I prefer if Annulment and Conjured Ward have stacking cost increase as Bolt Escape have. Or a shared cooldown (Spear Shards and Necrotic Orb is an example).

• "Casting again within X seconds cost Y% more Magicka."
• "Casting Annulment or Conjured Ward again within X seconds cost Y% more Magicka."

X: 4, 6 or 8 seconds.
Y: 50, 60 or 70%. Healing Ritual cost was increased by 69%.

I made this proposal here in this post. Didn't get a lot of traction. I think it's a good idea because it basically applies the same mechanism that prevents Dodge spam, and Dodge is the stamina counterpart to Shields. It also allows a reactive cast of a Shield to incoming damage, but prevents shield stacking and shield spamming.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Thread starts with an incorrect assumption.

There is a reason why stamina characters don't get taken into vet trials. Magicka simply has much higher survivability on live.

Of course, this is all about to change if the PTS goes live, and magicka will be the spec that gets completely dropped.

I don't agree with this at all. Stamina gets loaded into all vet Trials except for vAS and vCR. Everywhere else, you take as many stamina characters as you possibly can because DPS is higher. And in vAS the reason you take magicka isn't really shields, it's ranged DPS. While you're kiting lightning you can continue to DPS. You can focus minibosses and protectors from across the room. Stamina has to move too much and loses their DPS advantage while doing so. vCR is a bit different but again I don't think that shields are the primary differentiating feature here so much as passive self-healing via Refreshing Path and Funnel Health and the like. And in either case, these raids are loaded with magblades specifically, not so much magicka DPS in general.

mpicklesster

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Thread starts with an incorrect assumption.

There is a reason why stamina characters don't get taken into vet trials. Magicka simply has much higher survivability on live.

Of course, this is all about to change if the PTS goes live, and magicka will be the spec that gets completely dropped.

I agree that shields are one reason as to why magicka builds are allowed in to vet trials more often.

However, the other reason--unrelated to survival per, se--is the fact that magicka DPSs can often play entirely ranged builds with little-to-no DPS loss.

I'm all for ZOS finding ways to promote the presence of stamina DPSs in end-game content. (I have cleared vMA on the stamina versions of all classes, but my stam toons practically never see the light of day in veteran trials. This is upsetting.) However, ZOS could mitigate the majority of the magicka bias problem by reducing the number of anti-melee mechanics in veteran trials. Stamina DPSs require being in melee distance to achieve their highest DPS, but several trials mechanics alone prohibit that.

TL;DR If ZOS wants more stamina DPSs in trials, they should reduce the number of anti-melee mechanics. Some in the community mistakenly assume that shields are the sole cause of the magicka bias. They're not; it's just that the best kinds of ranged DPS builds in the game also have access to shields.

Nerfing shields won't change the purely mechanical reasons stamina DPSs are absent from so much end-game content.