Give toughness to the Sturdy Horn Morph

Namarkas

First of all, I am not a huge fan of the changes to War Horn, and the push for a warden healer especially. If they really want a warden to be the only source of this buff, they should make it in a way that non healer wardens aren't gimping themselves by trying to keep this buff up. It is a class that has to be bought seperatly, after all, so some form of getting it is not too much to ask in my opinion. But I am getting off-topic.
As far as I know nobody uses this morph of War Horn, at least in pve. The minor resistance buffs are overshadowed vastly by Major Force of the Aggressive Horn morph, + there are multiple ways to gain those resistance buffs. But by giving Minor Toughness to the Stury War Horn morph only, at least non warden groups can have access to this buff. However they need to make a choice between more damage and more survivability, which is what the dev team wants according to their statements(https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5469409#Comment_5469409). Having a warden applying this buff on a reliable basis will be more desirable nonetheless.
And it would make the Sturdy Horn morph deserve it's name. Finally.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

How about giving sturdy horn major toughness, 15% more health that stack with the minor version. Then everyone wins.

ezio45

or give it to both because:

Toughness is not a viable reason to have a warden occupy a healer or off tank role when they are incapable of preforming that role effectively

zos has already given us the reason this is stupid. If wardens were viable, it would still hurt grp optimization in the even that grp were unable to find a warden healer or tank or a replacement in the event a previously found one was unable to attend or complete a raid.

ZOS when we were talking about group inclusion we mainly meant we want ALL DPS capable of similar dps lvls so one class *cough nb* is not pulling an average of 10-15k over their even next highest competition (magsorc which is now crippled so thanks for the grp inclusion there) for trial grp dps slots. So that one class is not clearly the best choice for those dps slots

Namarkas

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

How about giving sturdy horn major toughness, 15% more health that stack with the minor version. Then everyone wins.

I don't have anything against that per se. Even with minor toughness the Sturdy Horn would be rather a "meh we have to" choice instead of a "this looks actually pretty dope" one. The only concern I have is that this would need more balancing, or at least balance consideration. Right now, we know what kind of builds we have with War Horn, adding a new buff is more work and something rather unlikely to be introduced before Murkmire hits, and I would rather have something ok now than something better in 6 months, if that makes any sense.

Namarkas

ezio45 wrote: »

or give it to both because:

Toughness is not a viable reason to have a warden occupy a healer or off tank role when they are incapable of preforming that role effectively

zos has already given us the reason this is stupid. If wardens were viable, it would still hurt grp optimization in the even that grp were unable to find a warden healer or tank or a replacement in the event a previously found one was unable to attend or complete a raid.

ZOS when we were talking about group inclusion we mainly meant we want ALL DPS capable of similar dps lvls so one class *cough nb* is not pulling an average of 10-15k over their even next highest competition (magsorc which is now crippled so thanks for the grp inclusion there) for trial grp dps slots. So that one class is not clearly the best choice for those dps slots

Like I said, I don't like the change either, but saying that Wardens cannot perform the role of healer or off tank effectivly is going a bit too far in my opinion. Warden are 2nd best healers and tanks, I have run with people who healed/tanked on wardens, vet trials hm included. Maybe the top scores of the leaderboards don't include them but that doesn't mean they are ineffective. And group inclusion also extends to tanks and healers, not just dds.
I would like toughness on War Horn in general too, but my point is that I really see no reason to remove it from Sturdy Warhorn at all. That you don't boost your party with almost 2k health in addition to the best damage bonus there is for big groups, that I can understand at least with the mentality they are showing at the moment.

Screamo

ezio45 wrote: »

or give it to both because:

Toughness is not a viable reason to have a warden occupy a healer or off tank role when they are incapable of preforming that role effectively

zos has already given us the reason this is stupid. If wardens were viable, it would still hurt grp optimization in the even that grp were unable to find a warden healer or tank or a replacement in the event a previously found one was unable to attend or complete a raid.

ZOS when we were talking about group inclusion we mainly meant we want ALL DPS capable of similar dps lvls so one class *cough nb* is not pulling an average of 10-15k over their even next highest competition (magsorc which is now crippled so thanks for the grp inclusion there) for trial grp dps slots. So that one class is not clearly the best choice for those dps slots

Wardens are performing effectively on Healer and Offtank roles.^^ Warden healers even have another synergy for alkosh which is sooooo good. The only thing warden tanks are behind dks is self sufficient survivability and well engulfing flames but most of the time you only need one engulfing in the group and then again you got a healer.

Tryxus

ezio45 wrote: »

Toughness is not a viable reason to have a warden occupy a healer or off tank role when they are incapable of preforming that role effectively

That is so not true. Since day 1, Wardens have been capable of performing both roles efficiently: they have access to all the necessary tanking tools in their class skills as well as strong heals and buffs that allow them to be good healers too. They are good alternatives to the DK as a tank and to the Templar as a healer, generally regarded as the 2nd best in both roles.

Namarkas wrote: »

First of all, I am not a huge fan of the changes to War Horn, and the push for a warden healer especially. If they really want a warden to be the only source of this buff, they should make it in a way that non healer wardens aren't gimping themselves by trying to keep this buff up. It is a class that has to be bought seperatly, after all, so some form of getting it is not too much to ask in my opinion. But I am getting off-topic.
As far as I know nobody uses this morph of War Horn, at least in pve. The minor resistance buffs are overshadowed vastly by Major Force of the Aggressive Horn morph, + there are multiple ways to gain those resistance buffs. But by giving Minor Toughness to the Stury War Horn morph only, at least non warden groups can have access to this buff. However they need to make a choice between more damage and more survivability, which is what the dev team wants according to their statements(https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5469409#Comment_5469409). Having a warden applying this buff on a reliable basis will be more desirable nonetheless.
And it would make the Sturdy Horn morph deserve it's name. Finally.

The thing is tho that each class brings their own unique buff to the group that can't be gotten anywhere else. If you want Minor Sorcery for instance, you need a Templar in the group. For Wardens this was a very important pain point since they provided a buff that has another source: War Horn.

Tbh, from a Warden's pov, this was a very good move: it allows Warden healers to provide Minor Toughness to the entire group efficiently while keeping the HP increase intact for Warden tanks

Ofc, it was rather cheesy to completely remove the HP increase from War Horn entirely

Namarkas

Tryxus wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

Toughness is not a viable reason to have a warden occupy a healer or off tank role when they are incapable of preforming that role effectively

That is so not true. Since day 1, Wardens have been capable of performing both roles efficiently: they have access to all the necessary tanking tools in their class skills as well as strong heals and buffs that allow them to be good healers too. They are good alternatives to the DK as a tank and to the Templar as a healer, generally regarded as the 2nd best in both roles.

Namarkas wrote: »

First of all, I am not a huge fan of the changes to War Horn, and the push for a warden healer especially. If they really want a warden to be the only source of this buff, they should make it in a way that non healer wardens aren't gimping themselves by trying to keep this buff up. It is a class that has to be bought seperatly, after all, so some form of getting it is not too much to ask in my opinion. But I am getting off-topic.
As far as I know nobody uses this morph of War Horn, at least in pve. The minor resistance buffs are overshadowed vastly by Major Force of the Aggressive Horn morph, + there are multiple ways to gain those resistance buffs. But by giving Minor Toughness to the Stury War Horn morph only, at least non warden groups can have access to this buff. However they need to make a choice between more damage and more survivability, which is what the dev team wants according to their statements(https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5469409#Comment_5469409). Having a warden applying this buff on a reliable basis will be more desirable nonetheless.
And it would make the Sturdy Horn morph deserve it's name. Finally.

The thing is tho that each class brings their own unique buff to the group that can't be gotten anywhere else. If you want Minor Sorcery for instance, you need a Templar in the group. For Wardens this was a very important pain point since they provided a buff that has another source: War Horn.

Tbh, from a Warden's pov, this was a very good move: it allows Warden healers to provide Minor Toughness to the entire group efficiently while keeping the HP increase intact for Warden tanks

Ofc, it was rather cheesy to completely remove the HP increase from War Horn entirely

I know, and if it worked like the minor buffs of the other classes, I would be all pro for this change. However, any other class brings their minor buffs more or less naturally. The following is from a pve perspective, but I guess in pvp it comes even more naturally.
Templars in any spec can use a Dawn's Wrath ability, either bc most dmg skills are there or because they want to contribute power of the light.
Nightblades simply need to deal critically damage while having an assassination ability slotted, again it doesn't matter if you are a healer, tank or dd, one crit every 20 seconds requires no effort, and that tree offers something for every spec (even if you only use shuffle for a defensive buff).
Magsorcs and Magdk have their abilities they need to activate in more utility oriented trees, however also one damage option they usually use, so mag, heal and tank don't need to worry. They stam counterparts suffer in that regard, but even they could slot lackluster but not useless skills (dark deal/ignious comes to mind) for the sake of the buff. They can simply activate it every 20 seconds and don't need to worry about anything else.
Wardens though have to heal every single target they want to apply that buff on, every 20 seconds at least once. Rather than needing to activate an ability of their green balance tree (which would be easy enough), or simply needing to critically heal ANYTHING in similarity to nbs (again, easy enough) every 20 seconds, they need to perform an specific action. That means you need to worry about positioning of your group members, and how to reach each and everybody of your group with a heal, at least once every 20 seconds. In trials especially, this comes only naturally to one certain role: Healer. So there is no incentive in taking a warden dd or tank just because of this change there.

Screamo

minor lifesteal and you are good to go on a tank/dd either cast altar or leeching vines.^^ one skill eZ

ezio45

Imo they cant pull of either role

Namarkas

Screamo wrote: »

minor lifesteal and you are good to go on a tank/dd either cast altar or leeching vines.^^ one skill eZ

lifesteal doesn't count for it
EDIT: Nvm it DOES count. Something went wrong with the first test ffs.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Namarkas wrote: »

Screamo wrote: »

minor lifesteal and you are good to go on a tank/dd either cast altar or leeching vines.^^ one skill eZ

lifesteal doesn't count for it

Is that on the new patch, cuase I know lifesteal procs maturation on live.

Bakkagami

Namarkas wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

Toughness is not a viable reason to have a warden occupy a healer or off tank role when they are incapable of preforming that role effectively

That is so not true. Since day 1, Wardens have been capable of performing both roles efficiently: they have access to all the necessary tanking tools in their class skills as well as strong heals and buffs that allow them to be good healers too. They are good alternatives to the DK as a tank and to the Templar as a healer, generally regarded as the 2nd best in both roles.

Namarkas wrote: »

First of all, I am not a huge fan of the changes to War Horn, and the push for a warden healer especially. If they really want a warden to be the only source of this buff, they should make it in a way that non healer wardens aren't gimping themselves by trying to keep this buff up. It is a class that has to be bought seperatly, after all, so some form of getting it is not too much to ask in my opinion. But I am getting off-topic.
As far as I know nobody uses this morph of War Horn, at least in pve. The minor resistance buffs are overshadowed vastly by Major Force of the Aggressive Horn morph, + there are multiple ways to gain those resistance buffs. But by giving Minor Toughness to the Stury War Horn morph only, at least non warden groups can have access to this buff. However they need to make a choice between more damage and more survivability, which is what the dev team wants according to their statements(https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5469409#Comment_5469409). Having a warden applying this buff on a reliable basis will be more desirable nonetheless.
And it would make the Sturdy Horn morph deserve it's name. Finally.

The thing is tho that each class brings their own unique buff to the group that can't be gotten anywhere else. If you want Minor Sorcery for instance, you need a Templar in the group. For Wardens this was a very important pain point since they provided a buff that has another source: War Horn.

Tbh, from a Warden's pov, this was a very good move: it allows Warden healers to provide Minor Toughness to the entire group efficiently while keeping the HP increase intact for Warden tanks

Ofc, it was rather cheesy to completely remove the HP increase from War Horn entirely

I know, and if it worked like the minor buffs of the other classes, I would be all pro for this change. However, any other class brings their minor buffs more or less naturally. The following is from a pve perspective, but I guess in pvp it comes even more naturally.
Templars in any spec can use a Dawn's Wrath ability, either bc most dmg skills are there or because they want to contribute power of the light.
Nightblades simply need to deal critically damage while having an assassination ability slotted, again it doesn't matter if you are a healer, tank or dd, one crit every 20 seconds requires no effort, and that tree offers something for every spec (even if you only use shuffle for a defensive buff).
Magsorcs and Magdk have their abilities they need to activate in more utility oriented trees, however also one damage option they usually use, so mag, heal and tank don't need to worry. They stam counterparts suffer in that regard, but even they could slot lackluster but not useless skills (dark deal/ignious comes to mind) for the sake of the buff. They can simply activate it every 20 seconds and don't need to worry about anything else.
Wardens though have to heal every single target they want to apply that buff on, every 20 seconds at least once. Rather than needing to activate an ability of their green balance tree (which would be easy enough), or simply needing to critically heal ANYTHING in similarity to nbs (again, easy enough) every 20 seconds, they need to perform an specific action. That means you need to worry about positioning of your group members, and how to reach each and everybody of your group with a heal, at least once every 20 seconds. In trials especially, this comes only naturally to one certain role: Healer. So there is no incentive in taking a warden dd or tank just because of this change there.

Warden healers have large aoe heals as well as a good number of hots they will be keeping on people throughout a fight. healing 12 people once every 20 seconds happens naturally. 4 people even more so.

MacCait

I agree this is a terrible choice to remove toughness from Warhorn and award it to Wardens specifically.

I am a tank on several classes. I haven't levelled a Warden yet, but have tanks in every other class. Warhorn has always been the tanks group utility. It just seems wrong to take that away from all tanks and award it to Wardens specifically.

I run content with a group of regular friends as many of the playerbase does. I think it's a terrible idea to ask players to specifically include a Warden in the party when they have spent years levelling other characters.

What this is stating is that if you want to continue using that group buff, you had better level a Warden.

I agree that giving the Toughness buff to Warden as a specific class skill is a great idea. It does make them more unique! But why does it need to be stripped away from Warhorn and thus all other tanks in game? That seems unfair and just causes a problem in that people will be specifically asking for or favoring Wardens.

I think a fair and unbias compromise on this would be to kee.p Tougness attached to Warhorn as it is, remaining unchanged, and then also award it to the Warden as a specific class buff to make them more unique. Everybody wins!

We can already see this sort of thing in other classes where classes have access to buffs that are also present in armour skills from the armour skill lines, or from restoration.

Namarkas

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Namarkas wrote: »

Screamo wrote: »

minor lifesteal and you are good to go on a tank/dd either cast altar or leeching vines.^^ one skill eZ

lifesteal doesn't count for it

Is that on the new patch, cuase I know lifesteal procs maturation on live.

I tested it on pts, and I took care only to debuff the target with lifesteal. Somebody else attacked it, and there was no maturation procced. Maybe it was glitched, but that was what happened
EDIT: Glitched...

Namarkas

Bakkagami wrote: »

Namarkas wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

Toughness is not a viable reason to have a warden occupy a healer or off tank role when they are incapable of preforming that role effectively

That is so not true. Since day 1, Wardens have been capable of performing both roles efficiently: they have access to all the necessary tanking tools in their class skills as well as strong heals and buffs that allow them to be good healers too. They are good alternatives to the DK as a tank and to the Templar as a healer, generally regarded as the 2nd best in both roles.

Namarkas wrote: »

First of all, I am not a huge fan of the changes to War Horn, and the push for a warden healer especially. If they really want a warden to be the only source of this buff, they should make it in a way that non healer wardens aren't gimping themselves by trying to keep this buff up. It is a class that has to be bought seperatly, after all, so some form of getting it is not too much to ask in my opinion. But I am getting off-topic.
As far as I know nobody uses this morph of War Horn, at least in pve. The minor resistance buffs are overshadowed vastly by Major Force of the Aggressive Horn morph, + there are multiple ways to gain those resistance buffs. But by giving Minor Toughness to the Stury War Horn morph only, at least non warden groups can have access to this buff. However they need to make a choice between more damage and more survivability, which is what the dev team wants according to their statements(https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5469409#Comment_5469409). Having a warden applying this buff on a reliable basis will be more desirable nonetheless.
And it would make the Sturdy Horn morph deserve it's name. Finally.

The thing is tho that each class brings their own unique buff to the group that can't be gotten anywhere else. If you want Minor Sorcery for instance, you need a Templar in the group. For Wardens this was a very important pain point since they provided a buff that has another source: War Horn.

Tbh, from a Warden's pov, this was a very good move: it allows Warden healers to provide Minor Toughness to the entire group efficiently while keeping the HP increase intact for Warden tanks

Ofc, it was rather cheesy to completely remove the HP increase from War Horn entirely

I know, and if it worked like the minor buffs of the other classes, I would be all pro for this change. However, any other class brings their minor buffs more or less naturally. The following is from a pve perspective, but I guess in pvp it comes even more naturally.
Templars in any spec can use a Dawn's Wrath ability, either bc most dmg skills are there or because they want to contribute power of the light.
Nightblades simply need to deal critically damage while having an assassination ability slotted, again it doesn't matter if you are a healer, tank or dd, one crit every 20 seconds requires no effort, and that tree offers something for every spec (even if you only use shuffle for a defensive buff).
Magsorcs and Magdk have their abilities they need to activate in more utility oriented trees, however also one damage option they usually use, so mag, heal and tank don't need to worry. They stam counterparts suffer in that regard, but even they could slot lackluster but not useless skills (dark deal/ignious comes to mind) for the sake of the buff. They can simply activate it every 20 seconds and don't need to worry about anything else.
Wardens though have to heal every single target they want to apply that buff on, every 20 seconds at least once. Rather than needing to activate an ability of their green balance tree (which would be easy enough), or simply needing to critically heal ANYTHING in similarity to nbs (again, easy enough) every 20 seconds, they need to perform an specific action. That means you need to worry about positioning of your group members, and how to reach each and everybody of your group with a heal, at least once every 20 seconds. In trials especially, this comes only naturally to one certain role: Healer. So there is no incentive in taking a warden dd or tank just because of this change there.

Warden healers have large aoe heals as well as a good number of hots they will be keeping on people throughout a fight. healing 12 people once every 20 seconds happens naturally. 4 people even more so.

The whole point was that limiting this to warden healers only is kinda bad

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Namarkas wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Namarkas wrote: »

Screamo wrote: »

minor lifesteal and you are good to go on a tank/dd either cast altar or leeching vines.^^ one skill eZ

lifesteal doesn't count for it

Is that on the new patch, cuase I know lifesteal procs maturation on live.

I tested it on pts, and I took care only to debuff the target with lifesteal. Somebody else attacked it, and there was no maturation procced. Maybe it was glitched, but that was what happened

That really sucks, the wardens have minor health steal in class, so it is wierd that it won't proc that passive. Maybe have to actually heal them? I know that the patch notes say it works on over healing now but worth testing.

ccfeeling

Warden - PTW

LeHarrt91

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Namarkas wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Namarkas wrote: »

Screamo wrote: »

minor lifesteal and you are good to go on a tank/dd either cast altar or leeching vines.^^ one skill eZ

lifesteal doesn't count for it

Is that on the new patch, cuase I know lifesteal procs maturation on live.

I tested it on pts, and I took care only to debuff the target with lifesteal. Somebody else attacked it, and there was no maturation procced. Maybe it was glitched, but that was what happened

That really sucks, the wardens have minor health steal in class, so it is wierd that it won't proc that passive. Maybe have to actually heal them? I know that the patch notes say it works on over healing now but worth testing.

i think it might be due to the way the heal from Lifesteal is coded and not classifying as a heal you provided. As the lifesteal doesnt proc Natures Gift either (even tho its a heal that comes from a Green balance skill) its a 'debuff' heal.

But before the warden came along Warhorn wasnt a minor buff it just gave a 10% increase. it should go back to that and stack with Minor Toughness from the warden. Or better yet. Give Minor Toughness back to Warhorn, make Maturation a generic 10% buff and give the warden a new group buff in the Animal Companion skill tree

Namarkas

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

i think it might be due to the way the heal from Lifesteal is coded and not classifying as a heal you provided. As the lifesteal doesnt proc Natures Gift either (even tho its a heal that comes from a Green balance skill) its a 'debuff' heal.

I think so aswell, it is considered a debuff you apply, and that debuff causes the target to self-heal. And if you self heal as warden, you will proc toughness on yourself of course. However so many people I spoke to claim "are you sure, bc I think it proccs it" that I will retest it.

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

But before the warden came along Warhorn wasnt a minor buff it just gave a 10% increase. it should go back to that and stack with Minor Toughness from the warden. Or better yet. Give Minor Toughness back to Warhorn, make Maturation a generic 10% buff and give the warden a new group buff in the Animal Companion skill tree

again, I am all pro for more health/nice things for everybody, but I think if they would like that, they would have done it by now. I don't think they want to give us more free health

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Namarkas wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Namarkas wrote: »

Screamo wrote: »

minor lifesteal and you are good to go on a tank/dd either cast altar or leeching vines.^^ one skill eZ

lifesteal doesn't count for it

Is that on the new patch, cuase I know lifesteal procs maturation on live.

I tested it on pts, and I took care only to debuff the target with lifesteal. Somebody else attacked it, and there was no maturation procced. Maybe it was glitched, but that was what happened

That really sucks, the wardens have minor health steal in class, so it is wierd that it won't proc that passive. Maybe have to actually heal them? I know that the patch notes say it works on over healing now but worth testing.

i think it might be due to the way the heal from Lifesteal is coded and not classifying as a heal you provided. As the lifesteal doesnt proc Natures Gift either (even tho its a heal that comes from a Green balance skill) its a 'debuff' heal.

But before the warden came along Warhorn wasnt a minor buff it just gave a 10% increase. it should go back to that and stack with Minor Toughness from the warden. Or better yet. Give Minor Toughness back to Warhorn, make Maturation a generic 10% buff and give the warden a new group buff in the Animal Companion skill tree

I totally understand that it is a "debuff" but lifesteal does get amped by the casters healing done percentage and crit rate. So there is some inconsistencies.

Namarkas

ok, on live lifesteal in fact counts for toughness. Still not ideal, but that would at least make warden dds on par with stamsorcs and stamdks.
Back to PTS.

Namarkas

Ok, so I sincerely appologize, I have no clue what went wrong the first time I tested this with my buddy. This time it procced with no problem -.-.
So while I really don't like the idea of wardens being pidgeonholed into using this skill if no tank or heal is around, it is at least something to work with.
EDIT: One reason why I don't like this is the fact that I have no clue what happens if you have overlapping sources of minor lifesteal at the same time active (for example, you play magwarden, and your templar healer puts down an altar).

Namarkas

double post

Turelus

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

How about giving sturdy horn major toughness, 15% more health that stack with the minor version. Then everyone wins.

Might actually be enough to help some people consider taking that morph.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Namarkas wrote: »

Ok, so I sincerely appologize, I have no clue what went wrong the first time I tested this with my buddy. This time it procced with no problem -.-.
So while I really don't like the idea of wardens being pidgeonholed into using this skill if no tank or heal is around, it is at least something to work with.
EDIT: One reason why I don't like this is the fact that I have no clue what happens if you have overlapping sources of minor lifesteal at the same time active (for example, you play magwarden, and your templar healer puts down an altar).

That is fantastic to hear, as I use blood altar on my warden healer, as a 46 second hot for 1700 magic is simply too good to not use, I do use leaching Vines when I tank. Thank you for checking again.

I think whoever has the highest heal tool tip ought to be healing with life steal, like as a healer, my tool tip is like 850 base but a tank will have less. But on live I think it is whoever casts debuff first gets to be the one that is counted and minor lifesteal use their stats.

Namarkas

Ok so after botching the test and the new results I gained I think I need to rephrase a bit.
My original suggestion still stands. Or as other people here pointed out, adding a health buff that stacks would of course be very nice indeed. That morph was underused, and it would come at a hefty sacrifice anyway. The way wardens apply this still favors certain roles, although granted, how big of a problem this really is depends strongly on how multiple lifesteals behave, I still need to test that (properly this time, lol).
I get that wardens need something unique to contribute, just like any other class. That's why I would like to see any HP buff on the Sturdy morph only, so that it would be preferable to have wardens. However, this class is not part of the base game. It has to be bought seperatly. And of all the minor buffs, this one will be arguably the most noticable one if missing in a group, because it buffs survivability rather than offense.

tl;dr: please don't completly lock group health buffs we had for ages suddenly behind a paywall. Also improve ways of application for warden dds in big groups.

StamWhipCultist

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

How about giving sturdy horn major toughness, 15% more health that stack with the minor version. Then everyone wins.

This would be ok with me. Class will have its benefits and this skill morph will finally not be utter garbage.

Namarkas

Ok, so I tested the layering of the lifesteals on live.

By the looks of it, it is actually as @Lightspeedflashb14_ESO said it ought to be: The highest value takes the debuff. Which makes sense for it to be implemented.
And means that is impossible for warden dds to proc this in trials. GG.

1 templar healer
1 warden pvp char

No matter whether I used an altar(area) or vines (target, duration), the healplars higher tooltip overrode mine in the following cases
templar siphon/warden altar (warden cast first)
templar altar/warden vines (templar cast first)
templar altar/warden altar (warden cast first)

only after setting different cp for my lifesteal to become better the following procced minor toughness on the templar:
templar altar/warden altar (warden cast first)

Now, if anybody could recheck that I would be glad, especially the vine testing was tedious as it involved mobs actually hitting something. Especially a check on the PTS would be appreciated, since I couldn't find somebody there for the time being. But just the fact that we had such difficulties to proc it gives me the feeling that I didn't botch it this time.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

@Namarkas thanks again for testing, what about dps running lotus blossom or green lotus, 20 seconds is a long time, the passive will proc on overheals too. light attack every second, other players are bound to get hit.

Namarkas

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Namarkas thanks again for testing, what about dps running lotus blossom or green lotus, 20 seconds is a long time, the passive will proc on overheals too. light attack every second, other players are bound to get hit.

First, I personally dislike that option bc I don't think we need any more focus on weaving. It is nothing that is explained in detail by the game, counter-intuitive. That is only my opinion, so let's look at this from a pure technical way.
The issue with Lotus Flower is that I don't think the targeting of the skill directly considers if the target has toughness, only indirectly by using the same targeting system as Breath of Life I guess. Of course I didn't test it, bc I don't have a personal test raid on the PTS
Usually skills like that target players something like this
injured > full health
low health > high health
so if the raid theoretically has all the same base hp, sure it works, if the warden dd(s) are comfortable with weaving. You overheal a target, it gets toughness, therefore has more health, and the next heal therefore targets a different player. It might get unreliable though if hp pools differ too much.
So let's say you have a sorc that likes to live dangerously with 15k hp, and an Imperial nb that thinks rather differently with 19k hp. In this scenario the nb will never ever get the buff unless rng decides to hit it in a way that it becomes the target with the lowest health despite of this difference. Otherwise I think the sorc will simply get the buff refreshed 24/7

EDIT: It also would mean that you would need to be constantly on the offense to keep it up. rezzing, dodging, blocking, etc will reduce your uptime on your class buff. Doesn't look too appealing to me.