Sorcerer Nerfs/Buffs Imperial city-Murkmire. Outdated class?

Irylia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24n9fYPHkfI

TL:DL

Sorc is an outdated class with many core defining skills nerfed over the years w/o compensation. We need some updates

Emma_Overload

Thanks for taking the time to put this together.

Rex-Umbra

All classes have gone though this... remember when NB Sap Tanks were a thing but they destroyed my playstyle.

Stibbons

Magsorcs needed balancing. Shield stacking was overpowered for years. Now you actually have to adapt like any other class. Still great mobility and other tools to use in pvp.

Tommy_The_Gun

Rex-Umbra wrote: »

All classes have gone though this... remember when NB Sap Tanks were a thing but they destroyed my playstyle.

Yep... people don't know this and often say for example that cloak is super OP / broken etc. ... Those people apparently don't remember the times when one of cloak morphs had build in purge (negative effects removal) ... imagine that today...

All classes went through this small "erosion" style nerfs... bit by bit...

Zaryc

NB Sap Tank might be dead, yet NB is pretty much the strongest class for both PvE and PvP. Sorc on the other hand has lower damage and way lower sustain in PvE and wont be playable on a competitive level in PvP next patch if the changes to shields and dark deal stay like this.

Zaryc

Stibbons wrote: »

Magsorcs needed balancing. Shield stacking was overpowered for years. Now you actually have to adapt like any other class. Still great mobility and other tools to use in pvp.

Anyone with swift can out run a sorc, also with the dark deal changes most sorcs won't be able to sustain streak like now on live.
Sure we have to adapt and use other builds, but every build for mag sorc next patch would be way better on one of the other classes with real defensive abilitys and way more buffs and debuffs build in.

BalticBlues

Stibbons wrote: »

Magsorcs needed balancing. Shield stacking was overpowered for years. Now you actually have to adapt like any other class. Still great mobility and other tools to use in pvp.

Once "all other classes" also get a cast time for their main survival skills, like
- cast time for Cloak
- cast time for Dodge
you can prove how to "adapt"...
Do not worry, NBs still will have "great mobility and other tools".

btw: The world is bigger than your small PvP world. Stacking two cast times (Matriarch cast time PLUS Matriarch shield cast time) results in such healing downtimes that no vet group will use a Sorc healer anymore...

ZOS once promoted the "each class can fulfull all roles" rule.
With this patch, Sorcs will not be able to heal vet groups anymore.
This extra cast-time approach is so ill-conceived that it hurts.

FoolishOptimist

Hello from a Templar.

ezio45

Stibbons wrote: »

Magsorcs needed balancing. Shield stacking was overpowered for years. Now you actually have to adapt like any other class. Still great mobility and other tools to use in pvp.

I love when players that clearly dont play magsorc tell us what we are doing wrong

ok we "adapt"

light armor is completely unusable for pvp, we switch to heavy, are sustain is terrible.... were not going to be able to run heavy

and i take it you mean streak by "mobility" streak is being lapped by stam players walking......

IZZEFlameLash

Welcome to the DK club of outdated classes. Don't mind the Warden in the corner.

Zer0oo

maybe you should add that gap closers are killing also mobile classes with their snares. (from silence/roots/snares)

Irylia

FoolishOptimist wrote: »

Hello from a Templar.

I mentioned you Templars

Irylia

Stibbons wrote: »

Magsorcs needed balancing. Shield stacking was overpowered for years. Now you actually have to adapt like any other class. Still great mobility and other tools to use in pvp.

Please explain

Vahrokh

Irylia wrote: »

Stibbons wrote: »

Magsorcs needed balancing. Shield stacking was overpowered for years. Now you actually have to adapt like any other class. Still great mobility and other tools to use in pvp.

Please explain

He won't explain, he - like others - is just hopping from thread to thread leaving down provocations to stir up flames. Since months.

Neloth

I really want them to remove cast time from hardened/empowered, but leave it for hardness / dampen.
Boom, shieldstacking takes a hit(maybe deserved, maybe not, let’s not argue), while sorc get a class-defining skill and mechanics (no more shield-stacking magblades and magdens).

Cously

Dragon Knights went to be Snake Squires. Get used to it (standard sorc reply on DK's nerf threads).

Biro123

All good stuff.

Although I do think you forgot to mention some of the gear nerfs that were directly(or partially) targeted at sorcs too - stuff like pirate skelly, trainee, BSW.... etc.


Another point, I feel is important - and really limiting on bar slots is the amount of skills that cannot be spammed.

Streak - due to exponential cost increase
Frags - on proc only
Curse - every 3 seconds only (on one target only)
Cage - can't even cast on anyone cc-immune
Mines - situational and definitely not spammable
Fury - Really low execute threshold

Now they don't want Hardened/Harness to be spammable (people are even suggesting the streak cost increase instead - lol) and dark exch is now less efficient the more you use it.

Add that to the 'buff skills' and toggles... inner light or aegis or pets etc..

Is it any wonder there is no build variety with the class.? If anything more abilities should be more useable (not less) - to give more options.

Irylia

Biro123 wrote: »

All good stuff.

Although I do think you forgot to mention some of the gear nerfs that were directly(or partially) targeted at sorcs too - stuff like pirate skelly, trainee, BSW.... etc.


Another point, I feel is important - and really limiting on bar slots is the amount of skills that cannot be spammed.

Streak - due to exponential cost increase
Frags - on proc only
Curse - every 3 seconds only (on one target only)
Cage - can't even cast on anyone cc-immune
Mines - situational and definitely not spammable
Fury - Really low execute threshold

Now they don't want Hardened/Harness to be spammable (people are even suggesting the streak cost increase instead - lol) and dark exch is now less efficient the more you use it.

Add that to the 'buff skills' and toggles... inner light or aegis or pets etc..

Is it any wonder there is no build variety with the class.? If anything more abilities should be more useable (not less) - to give more options.

I left gear out mainly because i didn’t want people to focus on the sets and potentially zos being like hmm good points let’s just give you a set instead of working on your skills

grannas211

Irylia wrote: »

Stibbons wrote: »

Magsorcs needed balancing. Shield stacking was overpowered for years. Now you actually have to adapt like any other class. Still great mobility and other tools to use in pvp.

Please explain

Thats the thing. They dont explain, because its all just hyperbole.

Biro123

Irylia wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

All good stuff.

Although I do think you forgot to mention some of the gear nerfs that were directly(or partially) targeted at sorcs too - stuff like pirate skelly, trainee, BSW.... etc.


Another point, I feel is important - and really limiting on bar slots is the amount of skills that cannot be spammed.

Streak - due to exponential cost increase
Frags - on proc only
Curse - every 3 seconds only (on one target only)
Cage - can't even cast on anyone cc-immune
Mines - situational and definitely not spammable
Fury - Really low execute threshold

Now they don't want Hardened/Harness to be spammable (people are even suggesting the streak cost increase instead - lol) and dark exch is now less efficient the more you use it.

Add that to the 'buff skills' and toggles... inner light or aegis or pets etc..

Is it any wonder there is no build variety with the class.? If anything more abilities should be more useable (not less) - to give more options.

I left gear out mainly because i didn’t want people to focus on the sets and potentially zos being like hmm good points let’s just give you a set instead of working on your skills

Yeah, I know what you mean.. I hate the way they sometimes do class-balance with sets..

Irylia

Biro123 wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

All good stuff.

Although I do think you forgot to mention some of the gear nerfs that were directly(or partially) targeted at sorcs too - stuff like pirate skelly, trainee, BSW.... etc.


Another point, I feel is important - and really limiting on bar slots is the amount of skills that cannot be spammed.

Streak - due to exponential cost increase
Frags - on proc only
Curse - every 3 seconds only (on one target only)
Cage - can't even cast on anyone cc-immune
Mines - situational and definitely not spammable
Fury - Really low execute threshold

Now they don't want Hardened/Harness to be spammable (people are even suggesting the streak cost increase instead - lol) and dark exch is now less efficient the more you use it.

Add that to the 'buff skills' and toggles... inner light or aegis or pets etc..

Is it any wonder there is no build variety with the class.? If anything more abilities should be more useable (not less) - to give more options.

I left gear out mainly because i didn’t want people to focus on the sets and potentially zos being like hmm good points let’s just give you a set instead of working on your skills

Yeah, I know what you mean.. I hate the way they sometimes do class-balance with sets..

With the reduced cost of dark exchange and the 50% increase it's now looking much better.
You will lose a 1k instant of stam/mag but for about 700 less cost and a magsorc could do it to compliment their mag gen for the next 20 seconds.

I still prefer being able to bash it and then just tie a higher resource return on it.

Septimus_Magna

Irylia wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

All good stuff.

Although I do think you forgot to mention some of the gear nerfs that were directly(or partially) targeted at sorcs too - stuff like pirate skelly, trainee, BSW.... etc.


Another point, I feel is important - and really limiting on bar slots is the amount of skills that cannot be spammed.

Streak - due to exponential cost increase
Frags - on proc only
Curse - every 3 seconds only (on one target only)
Cage - can't even cast on anyone cc-immune
Mines - situational and definitely not spammable
Fury - Really low execute threshold

Now they don't want Hardened/Harness to be spammable (people are even suggesting the streak cost increase instead - lol) and dark exch is now less efficient the more you use it.

Add that to the 'buff skills' and toggles... inner light or aegis or pets etc..

Is it any wonder there is no build variety with the class.? If anything more abilities should be more useable (not less) - to give more options.

I left gear out mainly because i didn’t want people to focus on the sets and potentially zos being like hmm good points let’s just give you a set instead of working on your skills

Yeah, I know what you mean.. I hate the way they sometimes do class-balance with sets..

With the reduced cost of dark exchange and the 50% increase it's now looking much better.
You will lose a 1k instant of stam/mag but for about 700 less cost and a magsorc could do it to compliment their mag gen for the next 20 seconds.

I still prefer being able to bash it and then just tie a higher resource return on it.

Its still very weak compared to Betty Netch or Siphoning Strikes.

The idea is good to have Dark Deal restore X amount up front and Y amount over time.
For PVE its just not a viable option because the cast time makes it a massive dps loss.

#removecasttimes

Narvuntien

I think in many ways the game has changed sooo much from its original design that really all classes (except warden?? but even then) feel like they need a rework.

There are all these incremental changes to the design of the basic game that just seems to make one class amazing and trashes another.

I'd say lay out what you want every class to be and how you want them to play, then go through every skill and morph bit by bit and think "what/who is this for?" and "how does this fit with this classes identity", "does this make this class worth playing as dps/tank/healer/in PVP"

It honestly feels that a lot of class identity is somewhat emergent from how people played them rather than how they were designed. Sometimes there is some flavour/theme dissonance or assumptions from genre tropes thrown in there. Sometimes there is some niche interaction with a few sets that people didn't expect and now they are played some unusual way.

I know people are super impatient but I am fine with this process taking a really long time but I would also like some communication on the path to get there. What are the classes (and class skills/skill lines) themes, what are they for, what do we want for the game?

As for the Sorcerer specifically, the first step would be why isn't there a Shocking Spellweave set? Why aren't we encouraging the use of lightning staves as dps weapons anymore? Where is our Lightning mage power fantasy that is so satisfying when playing a MagDK pryomancer. I can live without shields if Sorcerers were defined by something else. Why are our pets so dumb?, why do they get insta killed by mechanics. Why can they contribute to a party wipe if we use them in certain places with unfavourable mechanics? Why isn't my stam sorcerer some kind of spellblade mixing magic and might instead of just being the most generic of stam classes? What is the Sorcerer power fantasy and how can we fulfil that?

Biro123

Irylia wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

All good stuff.

Although I do think you forgot to mention some of the gear nerfs that were directly(or partially) targeted at sorcs too - stuff like pirate skelly, trainee, BSW.... etc.


Another point, I feel is important - and really limiting on bar slots is the amount of skills that cannot be spammed.

Streak - due to exponential cost increase
Frags - on proc only
Curse - every 3 seconds only (on one target only)
Cage - can't even cast on anyone cc-immune
Mines - situational and definitely not spammable
Fury - Really low execute threshold

Now they don't want Hardened/Harness to be spammable (people are even suggesting the streak cost increase instead - lol) and dark exch is now less efficient the more you use it.

Add that to the 'buff skills' and toggles... inner light or aegis or pets etc..

Is it any wonder there is no build variety with the class.? If anything more abilities should be more useable (not less) - to give more options.

I left gear out mainly because i didn’t want people to focus on the sets and potentially zos being like hmm good points let’s just give you a set instead of working on your skills

Yeah, I know what you mean.. I hate the way they sometimes do class-balance with sets..

With the reduced cost of dark exchange and the 50% increase it's now looking much better.
You will lose a 1k instant of stam/mag but for about 700 less cost and a magsorc could do it to compliment their mag gen for the next 20 seconds.

I still prefer being able to bash it and then just tie a higher resource return on it.

Yeah, I'm wondering how sustain will be with this in heavy now.. Assuming enough passive defences/healing to not need 100% shield up-time.. Just a shame there isn't a magica Ravager or 7th legion, and staves don't give the base dmg of 2-handers..

Barbaran

Neloth wrote: »

I really want them to remove cast time from hardened/empowered, but leave it for hardness / dampen.
Boom, shieldstacking takes a hit(maybe deserved, maybe not, let’s not argue), while sorc get a class-defining skill and mechanics (no more shield-stacking magblades and magdens).

Should be the other way Round honestly.
Harness/dampen should get it removed so all classes who run light get a viable shield and can do a small stack with healing ward.
But the sorc shield gets a cast or a cooldown so that if you want that really big stack you have some sort of compensation, since thats what ZoS wants.

I'm NOT in favour of any cooldown or cast times, but if something had to happen that's the way it should be instead of gutting the entire light armour playstyle

Biro123

Barbaran wrote: »

Neloth wrote: »

I really want them to remove cast time from hardened/empowered, but leave it for hardness / dampen.
Boom, shieldstacking takes a hit(maybe deserved, maybe not, let’s not argue), while sorc get a class-defining skill and mechanics (no more shield-stacking magblades and magdens).

Should be the other way Round honestly.
Harness/dampen should get it removed so all classes who run light get a viable shield and can do a small stack with healing ward.
But the sorc shield gets a cast or a cooldown so that if you want that really big stack you have some sort of compensation, since thats what ZoS wants.

I'm NOT in favour of any cooldown or cast times, but if something had to happen that's the way it should be instead of gutting the entire light armour playstyle

I suggested the opposite - keeping the light armour cast-time for that pre-emptive PVE vibe.. But also reverting the crit/resists change to the light-armour shield - It doesn't make sense having the light-armour-only shields benefitting from the resists that light doesn't offer while also suffering from crits.. Otherwise, even if it were instant, it would still be useless in PVP.
Keep Hardened instant - but have resists/crits count - so for it to be anywhere near as effective as on live, sorc will still need to build in resists and impen - also fixes the problem the PVE sorc healers are having since the shield is needed to keep the pets alive.. I think this alone makes the shield-stack much less efficient since you'll need light to make it possible, but light means a weaker hardened ward.

Irylia

Barbaran wrote: »

Neloth wrote: »

I really want them to remove cast time from hardened/empowered, but leave it for hardness / dampen.
Boom, shieldstacking takes a hit(maybe deserved, maybe not, let’s not argue), while sorc get a class-defining skill and mechanics (no more shield-stacking magblades and magdens).

Should be the other way Round honestly.
Harness/dampen should get it removed so all classes who run light get a viable shield and can do a small stack with healing ward.
But the sorc shield gets a cast or a cooldown so that if you want that really big stack you have some sort of compensation, since thats what ZoS wants.

I'm NOT in favour of any cooldown or cast times, but if something had to happen that's the way it should be instead of gutting the entire light armour playstyle

The class ward would have to see something added to it or increase in size because it doesnt make sense to only get 2-3k more shield on a cast time ward when you may as well do the instant even if it is less.

Juhasow

Nice vid lot of valid points. Pity devs dont care.

Barbaran

Irylia wrote: »

Barbaran wrote: »

Neloth wrote: »

I really want them to remove cast time from hardened/empowered, but leave it for hardness / dampen.
Boom, shieldstacking takes a hit(maybe deserved, maybe not, let’s not argue), while sorc get a class-defining skill and mechanics (no more shield-stacking magblades and magdens).

Should be the other way Round honestly.
Harness/dampen should get it removed so all classes who run light get a viable shield and can do a small stack with healing ward.
But the sorc shield gets a cast or a cooldown so that if you want that really big stack you have some sort of compensation, since thats what ZoS wants.

I'm NOT in favour of any cooldown or cast times, but if something had to happen that's the way it should be instead of gutting the entire light armour playstyle

The class ward would have to see something added to it or increase in size because it doesnt make sense to only get 2-3k more shield on a cast time ward when you may as well do the instant even if it is less.

I agree.
They need some huge changes if they want to continue.
I feel like that would be fair, annulment and morphs instant, conjured with cast or cooldown but un-critable or something.

This whole shield Nerf thing is stupid anyway. Players learn pretty quick to count to 5 before a stunning/burst when fighting shield builds. Is this really necessary

Irylia

Barbaran wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

Barbaran wrote: »

Neloth wrote: »

I really want them to remove cast time from hardened/empowered, but leave it for hardness / dampen.
Boom, shieldstacking takes a hit(maybe deserved, maybe not, let’s not argue), while sorc get a class-defining skill and mechanics (no more shield-stacking magblades and magdens).

Should be the other way Round honestly.
Harness/dampen should get it removed so all classes who run light get a viable shield and can do a small stack with healing ward.
But the sorc shield gets a cast or a cooldown so that if you want that really big stack you have some sort of compensation, since thats what ZoS wants.

I'm NOT in favour of any cooldown or cast times, but if something had to happen that's the way it should be instead of gutting the entire light armour playstyle

The class ward would have to see something added to it or increase in size because it doesnt make sense to only get 2-3k more shield on a cast time ward when you may as well do the instant even if it is less.

I agree.
They need some huge changes if they want to continue.
I feel like that would be fair, annulment and morphs instant, conjured with cast or cooldown but un-critable or something.

This whole shield Nerf thing is stupid anyway. Players learn pretty quick to count to 5 before a stunning/burst when fighting shield builds. Is this really necessary

Or they could think outside the box and give us better mitigation options than aegis and currently capped surge. Then maybe we wouldn’t rely on wards.