Are Healers necessary with everyone using Vigor?

leepalmer95

Donny_Vito wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Is this really a nerf vigor thread?
Run in a group with a proper healbot
Run in that same group without it.


You'll soon see how strong healbots are in pvp, they are obscenely broken.

You go into bg's if there is 1 team with a healer then there is a good chance that team will win.

No, it started out as a legitimate question. But then the PTS notes come out shortly after the question was asked and it's sorta morphed into that I suppose. I think Vigor is a little over-used, but I don't think it needs the devastating 1-second addition that certain shields are getting. I am interested to see how the new PvP set that everyone is complaining about will affect the usefulness of healers though (hopefully increase their presense).

Nah it won't do anything to healers.

All it will do is kill of any small scale/ solo players that don't decide to run around with a 30k hp healbot doing half the pvp for them.

There is already too many healers in cp pvp because magplar is the most simple, boring yet effective class there is for bad players to become useful.

Maryal

ChefZero wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

umm obvious? my own vigor and some other healer together are helpful. Like having 2-3 hots on my rather than one.

Kartalin wrote: »

Donny_Vito wrote: »

I feel like I see 90% of people using Vigor to heal themselves when I PvP, and often they might have Purge slotted too. The other 10% are templars who DPS and also use Breath of Life for heals.

It just seems like Vigor diminishes the need for active healers. Admittedly, it is nice when you have a full-time healer in your group but it just doesn't seem to be necessary.

That's how stamina characters can have such great survivability. Especially if they run in a small group together and each has their vigor stacked on each other player, the cumulative healing they receive is pretty amazing.

i don't think vigor stacks from other players. At least i didn't see so far people using vigor near me to stack with my own.

It absolutely does - this is something all decent Stam players do.

I thought only the different morphs can stack?

It was also my understanding that vigor can only stack if the different morphs are used.

Donny_Vito

Correct. The issues I see (on console, noted) are multiple stam characters basically all running the same build/class/skills and healing themselves using Vigor. One uses it, then another, then another....it gives this spamming impression as they keep healing themselves and their group without wasting too many resources because they just keep rotating it. That is what begged the original question of how useful are dedicated healers.

Donny_Vito

And just to be clear: Vigor in it's unmorphed state can heal you and allies. In it's morphed state, Echoing and Resolving, it has increased radius or increased healing on the caster, respectively.

idk

We can always add a one second cast time to it.

Donny_Vito

idk wrote: »

We can always add a one second cast time to it.

Even though I think you're being sarcastic, I'll indulge and say that the cast time would cause even more tears on the forums than the newest potential shield cast time changes. All those pathetic people threatening to quit or complaining about their inability to adapt would be amplified and almost unbearable to take.

Rianai

There is a difference between useful and necessary. Just because something isn't always mandatory, doesn't mean it isn't useful. Are dedicated healers useful? Definitely. Are they necessary? Not always. Should they be necessary. No!

The bigger a grp, the better specialized roles become. In a small grp you can't always afford to give up dmg for a dedicated healer, so the focus is more on well-rounded builds with dmg and self-sustain. Nerfing survivability/heals outside of dedicated support builds wouldn't make healers more useful, it would just hurt solo and small scale play.

idk

Donny_Vito wrote: »

idk wrote: »

We can always add a one second cast time to it.

Even though I think you're being sarcastic, I'll indulge and say that the cast time would cause even more tears on the forums than the newest potential shield cast time changes. All those pathetic people threatening to quit or complaining about their inability to adapt would be amplified and almost unbearable to take.

I am being sarcastic and it would be just a poor of a decision for Zos do add the cast time.

Aedaryl

Vigor is the reason why stamina smallscale is dominating.

Nerfing vigor AoE heal (leaving the self healing like is it) could be a smart nerf.

Donny_Vito

Rianai wrote: »

The bigger a grp, the better specialized roles become. In a small grp you can't always afford to give up dmg for a dedicated healer, so the focus is more on well-rounded builds with dmg and self-sustain. Nerfing survivability/heals outside of dedicated support builds wouldn't make healers more useful, it would just hurt solo and small scale play.

For the sake of argument: why can you not add a healer to a small group? It seems the mentality is that we can only have X amount of people. You can have X + 1, whats the problem with that? This is not like a trial where you can only have a set amount of people.

Edit: For the sake of defense, yes you can only have a set amount of people in a group in PvP....more of a reference to the "small group" comment.

Rianai

Small grps typically consist of friends who want to play together instead of playing with random people, so if only X players of a guild are online/want to PvP at a given time, they can only have X players. And not everyone wants to play a dedicated healer, so if a grp can't function without a healer, they all wouldn't be able to play if their healer isn't online (or they don't have one at all). Not relying on specialized roles allows much more flexibility.
In addition, some simply don't want to have more than a certain amount of players in their grp for various reasons (to keep fights challenging, to reduce lag, to practise for BGs/GvG, ...)

Aedaryl wrote: »

Vigor is the reason why stamina smallscale is dominating.

Nerfing vigor AoE heal (leaving the self healing like is it) could be a smart nerf.

I think it is more because of mobility. A stam grp doesn't need a rapids spammer in order to be able to move.

Donny_Vito

Rianai wrote: »

Small grps typically consist of friends who want to play together instead of playing with random people, so if only X players of a guild are online/want to PvP at a given time, they can only have X players. And not everyone wants to play a dedicated healer, so if a grp can't function without a healer, they all wouldn't be able to play if their healer isn't online (or they don't have one at all). Not relying on specialized roles allows much more flexibility.
In addition, some simply don't want to have more than a certain amount of players in their grp for various reasons (to keep fights challenging, to reduce lag, to practise for BGs/GvG, ...)

Valid points. I still think small groups will still be very common, they'll just have to adapt. But that's life of an MMO game in general, so nothing new.

kaithuzar

I only run small man nowadays. I would never bring a “im just a healer” in my group. You had better have dps & heals. & if your dps sucks you better bring some utility like debuff/snare/etc...

If you want to “just heal” go play pve b/c you’re just going to get focused & die terribly

Luckylancer

Simple logic: Do vigor users ever die? If yes, they need healers.

Radiance

For a useless role, Healers sure get blamed a lot when everyone dies...

eliisra

Well, it's at least semi-useful because everyone will target the immobile sitting duck a.k.a the healer, allowing stamina builds to score a bunch of easy kills without getting focused. Than simply revive the healer and repeat.

But yes, stamina small scale doesn't benefit that awfully much by grouping up with a slowpoke healer crying for peels and rapid maneuver and "wait for me guys qq". It's more crucial to have dedicated healers larger mixed groups.

Stamina also dominates small scale since forever.

Nerfing Vigor is a bad idea though, since stamina builds needs it in PvE. Especially for stuff like vMA. Ideally they should make all builds equally viable for small scale. Sadly seems like they're doing the complete opposite at the moment.

Jeremy

Lexxypwns wrote: »

The primary use for healers is extending your offensive window by keeping your group healed while your DPS can put out uninterrupted damage.

It’s a huge advantage to have a healer versus not having a healer.

If you have to stop putting out damage to survive then you start losing, have to kill to win tbh

This is something a lot of people who trash talk healers don't seem to understand.

Having a dedicated healer is in itself a huge buff to offense because it enables the other players to focus more on killing instead of having to heal themselves. Though I think this is more true for PvE than it is PvP.

Healers in PvP (especially the Templar variety) have never impressed me much and they are usually the least threatening characters I face. One or two good dps can usually just slaughter them with ease.

Ragnarock41

Sergykid wrote: »

i don't think vigor stacks from other players.

Exactly what I would expect to hear from you.

Donny_Vito

Radiance wrote: »

For a useless role, Healers sure get blamed a lot when everyone dies...

So true.

p00tx

Donny_Vito wrote: »

I run a healer sometimes, but I'm just curious if I'd be better off slotting more DPS and just a few heals. It seems everyone instinctively uses Vigor.

During keep sieging/defending when the inner door gets rushed, the extra heals seem crucial. But in open world where mobility is the main factor it seems my heals are a lot less important.

This is exactly what I started doing. You really don't need a ton of heals in PvP as long as you cover the basics (One HoT [Mutagen], one purge [Ritual of Retribution], one "oh s$&%!" spammable [Honor the Dead], one or two buffs [Combat Prayer, Purifying Light], one shielding/healing ulti [Barrier/Light's Champion/Practiced Incantation]). I slot one damage ulti (Shooting Star is great, since it scales off our mag, and we usually have a ton of that) in case we just need that extra little bit of AoE dmg. The rest should be designed to assist with a bit of dmg, CCs and executes, and the ever useful Rapids, since DDs seem to be adverse to slotting it. We're sort of the Swiss Army Knife of any PvP group, so we need to be pretty versatile and not locked into filling a rigid or limited role expectation.