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Solution for Killstealing in BG Deathmatch

  • Merlin13KAGL
    Merlin13KAGL
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    Thogard wrote: »
    Why not leave assists as is, but give the actual kill to the one that dealt the most damage?

    Then it doesn't matter if you landed the KB or not, you clearly contributed the most to the demise of the fallen player.

    Because this isn’t PvE
    Which has relevance how, exactly?

    Again, the analogy I used before was when taking the last keep in an emp campaign, do they grant emp to the top person on the leaderboard, or the one that happens to get the last lucky siege shot that brings the outer wall down?
    If you intend to point out that you still have to breach inner and take flags, then you've already missed the point...

    If you want a count or achievement for KB's, then have a separate count of achievement for KB's Call it "Lucky Timing" or "Execute Spam."

    If you want legit kill credit, you should actually have to do some damage.

    Has absolutely nothing to do with PvP vs PvE.

    Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...

    Earn it.
    I am neither warm, nor fuzzy...
    Probably has checkbox on Customer Service profile that say High Aggro, 99% immunity to BS
  • Rianai
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    Damage done - just like killing blows - isn't a good indicator of how much someone contributes to a kill in PvP (unlike PvE). Just imagine 2 tanks hitting on each other for minutes. They can rack up a huge amount of dmg done without getting anywhere close to a kill. If then a 3rd player jumps in and burst one of them down, he will have much lower dmg done, but is still the one who is 99% responsible for the kill.
  • Merlin13KAGL
    Merlin13KAGL
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    Rianai wrote: »
    Damage done - just like killing blows - isn't a good indicator of how much someone contributes to a kill in PvP (unlike PvE). Just imagine 2 tanks hitting on each other for minutes. They can rack up a huge amount of dmg done without getting anywhere close to a kill. If then a 3rd player jumps in and burst one of them down, he will have much lower dmg done, but is still the one who is 99% responsible for the kill.
    @Rianai So make it damage done over the final 10-20 seconds of the character's life? Those will always be the final seconds that lead to death, regardless of how long they mitigated prior to that.

    It will still reward the player that jumps in and bursts, vs the 4th around the corner that simply has lucky timing. Even if there were still some exceptions, it would be a more accurate earning indicator than the current system allows.

    Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...

    Earn it.
    I am neither warm, nor fuzzy...
    Probably has checkbox on Customer Service profile that say High Aggro, 99% immunity to BS
  • Rianai
    Rianai
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    There are too many different factors that can lead to a player's death, to actually measure someone's contribution in a reasonable and fair way. Killstealing is only an issue because we have 3 teams competing against each other. So turning it into XvsX, at least for deathmatch, would be the best solution imo.
    Edited by Rianai on September 28, 2018 1:22PM
  • Sirvys
    Sirvys
    Can more than one assist be given for one killing blow? In other words, can more than one person get the assist on a kill?
  • jcm2606
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    Sirvys wrote: »
    Can more than one assist be given for one killing blow? In other words, can more than one person get the assist on a kill?

    That doesn't really solve team scoring, which is the real crux of the issue. Assists and killing blows I believe are worth the same amount of points for player scoring, so in a vacuum, a player with 10 assists will be ranked very similarly as a player with 10 kills. Obviously other factors come into play, so you might have 30 assists and a stupid amount of damage on the leaderboard, but you could sit at the bottom of the leaderboard.

    The real crux of the issue is how kill stealing impacts team scoring. As an example, I've been in numerous games where our team (for the sake of argument, red) had pushed purple back to their spawn, and we were slaughtering them. However, green was sitting back spamming ranged executes, basically not contributing to the fight, but getting all the credit for the kills. We were doing literally 95% of the work, but green got all the credit for the kills, leading to them pulling ahead each kill.

    Now, sure, the solution to this problem is simply to pull purple away from green. But all green has to do is move up, and they can continue stealing kills. We could also pull back entirely, but that just allows green to push in and spawn camp purple, just the same as we were doing, so we basically trade places. No matter which way we go -- staying in the fight, pulling purple back, or dropping out of the fight entirely -- green is getting the kills.

    Killing blows with relation to team scoring just needs to be reworked. They should take into account what actually killed the target. Executes are the biggest and easiest way to steal kills, so executes should have a lower value than other attacks. Players shouldn't get the kill for just spamming executes, especially at range.
    Edited by jcm2606 on September 29, 2018 5:31AM
    @jcm2606 | PC NA | CP 940+ | Stormproof | Boethia's Scythe
  • Royaji
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    jcm2606 wrote: »
    Sirvys wrote: »
    Can more than one assist be given for one killing blow? In other words, can more than one person get the assist on a kill?

    That doesn't really solve team scoring, which is the real crux of the issue. Assists and killing blows I believe are worth the same amount of points for player scoring, so in a vacuum, a player with 10 assists will be ranked very similarly as a player with 10 kills. Obviously other factors come into play, so you might have 30 assists and a stupid amount of damage on the leaderboard, but you could sit at the bottom of the leaderboard.

    The real crux of the issue is how kill stealing impacts team scoring. As an example, I've been in numerous games where our team (for the sake of argument, red) had pushed purple back to their spawn, and we were slaughtering them. However, green was sitting back spamming ranged executes, basically not contributing to the fight, but getting all the credit for the kills. We were doing literally 95% of the work, but green got all the credit for the kills, leading to them pulling ahead each kill.

    Now, sure, the solution to this problem is simply to pull purple away from green. But all green has to do is move up, and they can continue stealing kills. We could also pull back entirely, but that just allows green to push in and spawn camp purple, just the same as we were doing, so we basically trade places. No matter which way we go -- staying in the fight, pulling purple back, or dropping out of the fight entirely -- green is getting the kills.

    Killing blows with relation to team scoring just needs to be reworked. They should take into account what actually killed the target. Executes are the biggest and easiest way to steal kills, so executes should have a lower value than other attacks. Players shouldn't get the kill for just spamming executes, especially at range.

    Your solution is to go kill greens. Complaining that the third team is not allowing you to spawn camp the weakest team freely and not even considering that you can go and kill those kill stealers is just pathetic.
  • Hotdog_23
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    Makes me upset sometimes too but more often then not it is fair and equals out over time. I just wish a dk had an execute skill. I do get more kills on my sorc NB and Templar but probably more damage on my DK so go figure.
  • Anethum
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    mr_wazzabi wrote: »
    I suggest that if two players from different teams kill a player, both players should be credited with the kill, not the one that landed the killing blow.

    This way, you won't have a team win the match just because they have sorcs spamming endless fury while the third team does most of the damage.

    In Destiny 2 and Battlefield 1, one of the coolest features was "assist counted as kill", which meant you did the most damage but someone else landed the killing blow, yet you're still credited with the points. In fact, both players are. That makes it fair.

    @ZOS_GinaBruno can you pass this up please?

    its more about value of killing blow, assists and another things u do in bg.
    Actually, for few patches i see they accomodating these values.
    Had many matches with the first place on a person who had not most kills, but many kills and most assist for example, or many kills and healing done. I mean in Deathmatches ofc.
    Here a big space where to go with that values but it can be more important for gameplay to focus on values instead mage's fury (which ofc also should be adjusted, damn stupid thing is this dodgable in theory (in reality not, same as rune prison) pre-execute)
    Edited by Anethum on September 30, 2018 2:51PM
    @Anethum from .ua
  • Anethum
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    Reverb wrote: »
    Based on the forums this week, 90% of the sorcs in the game are going to quit playing over the shield nerfs, so this won't be a problem anymore :trollface:

    if these "my destiny is to play magesorc only" guys left i will be glad only.
    But, as I supposed when read first pts patchnote, devs already said that will remove back cast time for shields, so, think they will not leave the game:(
    @Anethum from .ua
  • SugaComa
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    Wouldn't the simplest solution to calculate the damage done from the death recap and give the kill to the person who did the most damage from that
    .. as it recalls all the final damage leading to death it's a fairer way to distribute the points
  • Thogard
    Thogard
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    SugaComa wrote: »
    Wouldn't the simplest solution to calculate the damage done from the death recap and give the kill to the person who did the most damage from that
    .. as it recalls all the final damage leading to death it's a fairer way to distribute the points

    The whole point of PvP is burst.

    To say that the person who did the most dmg should get the kill would be to ignore the fact that most dmg can get healed. Also what about dmg shields? What about defile?

    What about a tank who just spams dots, but then a dps comes in and 2 shots someone, but because the tank was spamming dots for a full minute they did more dmg?

    PvP is about burst. PvE is about dps. The whole “whoever did the most dmg” argument is a PvE mindset that doesn’t take into account the complexities and counterplay of PvP.

    HOWEVER sorc kill steals are a problem. I do believe that endless fury should count as a proc or a debuff, not a direct damage. Whoever TRIGGERS the endless fury to activate should get credit for the kill of endless fury is the killing blow.

    Example:
    A mag sorc from team A puts endless fury on a nightblade from team B who’s at full health. I’m on team C and 1s later I land a beetles//DBOS combo on this nightblade and bring them down to 25% as the sorc from team A runs away. I then use spin2win which brings the nightblade down to 10%, which triggers the endless fury proc. Under the current system, sorc gets credit. Under my proposed system, I’d get credit, not because I did more dmg but because I specifically did the dmg that “activated” or “triggered” endless fury to proc.
    PC NA - Thogard / Sir Thogalot / Thoggy Boi jr / Thogaine / Madam Clamslam

    twitch.tv/ThogardPvP
  • russelmmendoza
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    Luck is always part of the battle.
  • tunepunk
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    Maybe shortening the range of endless fury could help as well. There's less risk standing in the back somewhere casting it. If the range was significantly shorter, sorcs would probably think twice before running in a use it.
  • SugaComa
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    Thogard wrote: »
    SugaComa wrote: »
    Wouldn't the simplest solution to calculate the damage done from the death recap and give the kill to the person who did the most damage from that
    .. as it recalls all the final damage leading to death it's a fairer way to distribute the points

    The whole point of PvP is burst.

    To say that the person who did the most dmg should get the kill would be to ignore the fact that most dmg can get healed. Also what about dmg shields? What about defile?

    What about a tank who just spams dots, but then a dps comes in and 2 shots someone, but because the tank was spamming dots for a full minute they did more dmg?

    PvP is about burst. PvE is about dps. The whole “whoever did the most dmg” argument is a PvE mindset that doesn’t take into account the complexities and counterplay of PvP.

    HOWEVER sorc kill steals are a problem. I do believe that endless fury should count as a proc or a debuff, not a direct damage. Whoever TRIGGERS the endless fury to activate should get credit for the kill of endless fury is the killing blow.

    Example:
    A mag sorc from team A puts endless fury on a nightblade from team B who’s at full health. I’m on team C and 1s later I land a beetles//DBOS combo on this nightblade and bring them down to 25% as the sorc from team A runs away. I then use spin2win which brings the nightblade down to 10%, which triggers the endless fury proc. Under the current system, sorc gets credit. Under my proposed system, I’d get credit, not because I did more dmg but because I specifically did the dmg that “activated” or “triggered” endless fury to proc.

    Cos on your death recap screen ... Kill goes to the last damage done

    So if hit them a 200 sneeze I get the credit despite your burst damage doing the most damage ...

    I'm not saying give the kill to the player that does the most damage over all ...

    I'm saying give it to the person who did the most damage from the death recap ...

    Now if you're worried your busrt isn't going to get that award then your burst simply isn't good enough else it would have recorded the highest total damage on the death recap ...

    Remember death recap only records the last X number of damage sources that led to the kill, so all those dots that were getting healed are unlikely to be on the death recap
  • Thogard
    Thogard
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    SugaComa wrote: »
    Thogard wrote: »
    SugaComa wrote: »
    Wouldn't the simplest solution to calculate the damage done from the death recap and give the kill to the person who did the most damage from that
    .. as it recalls all the final damage leading to death it's a fairer way to distribute the points

    The whole point of PvP is burst.

    To say that the person who did the most dmg should get the kill would be to ignore the fact that most dmg can get healed. Also what about dmg shields? What about defile?

    What about a tank who just spams dots, but then a dps comes in and 2 shots someone, but because the tank was spamming dots for a full minute they did more dmg?

    PvP is about burst. PvE is about dps. The whole “whoever did the most dmg” argument is a PvE mindset that doesn’t take into account the complexities and counterplay of PvP.

    HOWEVER sorc kill steals are a problem. I do believe that endless fury should count as a proc or a debuff, not a direct damage. Whoever TRIGGERS the endless fury to activate should get credit for the kill of endless fury is the killing blow.

    Example:
    A mag sorc from team A puts endless fury on a nightblade from team B who’s at full health. I’m on team C and 1s later I land a beetles//DBOS combo on this nightblade and bring them down to 25% as the sorc from team A runs away. I then use spin2win which brings the nightblade down to 10%, which triggers the endless fury proc. Under the current system, sorc gets credit. Under my proposed system, I’d get credit, not because I did more dmg but because I specifically did the dmg that “activated” or “triggered” endless fury to proc.

    Cos on your death recap screen ... Kill goes to the last damage done

    So if hit them a 200 sneeze I get the credit despite your burst damage doing the most damage ...

    I'm not saying give the kill to the player that does the most damage over all ...

    I'm saying give it to the person who did the most damage from the death recap ...

    Now if you're worried your busrt isn't going to get that award then your burst simply isn't good enough else it would have recorded the highest total damage on the death recap ...

    Remember death recap only records the last X number of damage sources that led to the kill, so all those dots that were getting healed are unlikely to be on the death recap

    Death recap is utterly meaningless.
    PC NA - Thogard / Sir Thogalot / Thoggy Boi jr / Thogaine / Madam Clamslam

    twitch.tv/ThogardPvP
  • Rizz_the_Filthy_Dino
    Assists exist in the game to combat killing blows. I get the same amount of points for them, too.

    Assists don't matter in a game of deathmatch where the point of the match is to get as many kills as you can.
    PC NA :: @Filthy_Rizz
  • SugaComa
    SugaComa
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    Thogard wrote: »
    SugaComa wrote: »
    Thogard wrote: »
    SugaComa wrote: »
    Wouldn't the simplest solution to calculate the damage done from the death recap and give the kill to the person who did the most damage from that
    .. as it recalls all the final damage leading to death it's a fairer way to distribute the points

    The whole point of PvP is burst.

    To say that the person who did the most dmg should get the kill would be to ignore the fact that most dmg can get healed. Also what about dmg shields? What about defile?

    What about a tank who just spams dots, but then a dps comes in and 2 shots someone, but because the tank was spamming dots for a full minute they did more dmg?

    PvP is about burst. PvE is about dps. The whole “whoever did the most dmg” argument is a PvE mindset that doesn’t take into account the complexities and counterplay of PvP.

    HOWEVER sorc kill steals are a problem. I do believe that endless fury should count as a proc or a debuff, not a direct damage. Whoever TRIGGERS the endless fury to activate should get credit for the kill of endless fury is the killing blow.

    Example:
    A mag sorc from team A puts endless fury on a nightblade from team B who’s at full health. I’m on team C and 1s later I land a beetles//DBOS combo on this nightblade and bring them down to 25% as the sorc from team A runs away. I then use spin2win which brings the nightblade down to 10%, which triggers the endless fury proc. Under the current system, sorc gets credit. Under my proposed system, I’d get credit, not because I did more dmg but because I specifically did the dmg that “activated” or “triggered” endless fury to proc.

    Cos on your death recap screen ... Kill goes to the last damage done

    So if hit them a 200 sneeze I get the credit despite your burst damage doing the most damage ...

    I'm not saying give the kill to the player that does the most damage over all ...

    I'm saying give it to the person who did the most damage from the death recap ...

    Now if you're worried your busrt isn't going to get that award then your burst simply isn't good enough else it would have recorded the highest total damage on the death recap ...

    Remember death recap only records the last X number of damage sources that led to the kill, so all those dots that were getting healed are unlikely to be on the death recap

    Death recap is utterly meaningless.

    Then why worry over who gets the kill ...

    Assists and kills score medal points exactly the same so you can get personal scoring for leaderboards

    Kills in death match earn your team 15 ponts I think ... So let your team mate spam steal away to victory ....

    Just do before the enemy does it

  • jaws343
    jaws343
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    Thogard wrote: »
    SugaComa wrote: »
    Wouldn't the simplest solution to calculate the damage done from the death recap and give the kill to the person who did the most damage from that
    .. as it recalls all the final damage leading to death it's a fairer way to distribute the points

    The whole point of PvP is burst.

    To say that the person who did the most dmg should get the kill would be to ignore the fact that most dmg can get healed. Also what about dmg shields? What about defile?

    What about a tank who just spams dots, but then a dps comes in and 2 shots someone, but because the tank was spamming dots for a full minute they did more dmg?

    PvP is about burst. PvE is about dps. The whole “whoever did the most dmg” argument is a PvE mindset that doesn’t take into account the complexities and counterplay of PvP.

    HOWEVER sorc kill steals are a problem. I do believe that endless fury should count as a proc or a debuff, not a direct damage. Whoever TRIGGERS the endless fury to activate should get credit for the kill of endless fury is the killing blow.

    Example:
    A mag sorc from team A puts endless fury on a nightblade from team B who’s at full health. I’m on team C and 1s later I land a beetles//DBOS combo on this nightblade and bring them down to 25% as the sorc from team A runs away. I then use spin2win which brings the nightblade down to 10%, which triggers the endless fury proc. Under the current system, sorc gets credit. Under my proposed system, I’d get credit, not because I did more dmg but because I specifically did the dmg that “activated” or “triggered” endless fury to proc.

    The problem with this is let's say the sorc is focusing someone and lays down fury and right before they get then to execute you come along and hit them with a light attack proccing fury and killing the player. You just kill stole in your proposed solution.

    The true solution is everything is fine. Focus the sorc if you don't want to lose kills. This is pvp, there is no thing as kill stealing. And if there were, dedicated healers are the biggest culprits, becausd they don't allow you to kill opponents. But you know what players do? They focus healers first.
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