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Guard: Feedback Thread
paulsimonps
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Hello, so I want to talk to everyone about the Alliance War Support ability Guard. This skill is fairly straight forward at first sight but it hides a very complex and broken mechanic. Here is a screenshot showing the current tooltips for the skill and its morphs. In short, you protect a target giving them 30% mitigation and the damage they should have taken is instead applied to you. With the morphs while the ability is active you both get either a constant Minor Vitality or a constant Minor Force.
However.... We all know that if that was all there was to it I would not be making this thread. So the way this ability functions is somewhat complicated and has a few weird things that don't make sense.
First off, the 30% mitigation is calculated last in the protected targets mitigation calculation. This means that ALL sources of mitigation that the protected target might have will be applied before the 30% from Guard, making it so that the damage taken by the caster of Guard is reduced. Oh and when I say all sources of mitigation I mean all sources that can be applied on the type of damage that is being inflicted, for example block mitigation will still not help against unblockable DoTs and stuff, but block will still work with direct damage attacks and such. So again, this lowers the casters damage taken quite a bit depending on the protected targets mitigation, if used on a tank you will get A LOT of mitigation applied before hand. What makes it even worse however is this, the mitigation that the caster has applies to the damage taken as well, with the exception of the casters blocking mitigation. This means that the damage taken by the caster has to go through A LOT, and I mean A METRIC *** TON of mitigation before the caster is actually damaged. Let me give a quick example
Say the caster is a healer protecting a tank or something. The attack is suppose to do 20,000. 30% of 20,000 is 6,000. But using common mitigation stats we can see how much damage is actually taken by the caster.
tank is blocking, has absorb magic, is a DK, 40% in resistance, minor maim, sword and board passive and has 10% from ironclad and hardy. healer gets 20% resistance, and the same CP stats.
20,000*0.5*0.8*0.9*0.92*0.85*0.9*0.9*0.60*0.70=1915.46
20,000*0.5*0.8*0.9*0.92*0.85*0.9*0.9*0.60*0.30*0.8*0.9*0.9=531.95
So the tank gets hit by 1915 out of that original 20,000 and while 30% out of 20,000 is 6,000 the caster only gets hit by 513.
Now as I've mentioned most things that apply mitigation to the caster and the protected target work twice, however there is one thing that does work twice but not in the way you might think. Minor Maim. So minor maim is not direct mitigation, its lowering the damage output of a target, so a PvE boss is hit with minor maim, he does less dmg, straight forward. So how does it work twice here? Well in PvP its not uncommon to have yourself be hit with Minor Maim, and if the target you are protecting gets hit with it, well the damage you will take as the caster is then reduced.
When I tested this I was almost in shock, it blew my mind in a very face palm kind of way. When you are protecting someone, the person hitting them is not the one dealing damage to you, the person you are protecting is! That means that when they are debuffed with minor maim they will do less damage to you. However..... there is a flip side, Minor Beserk will increase the damage you take..... I am serious, when I tested both of these I could barely believe it. This should not be the case, at all. Though while I am at it I will also like to mention that the damage you take as the caster will always be physical damage, regardless of the original damage type that the protected target got hit by.
Anyway, continuing. There are 2 more odd things with guard that have no explanation to them. Oblivion damage and Damage shields. For whatever reason if the protected target used a damage shield roughly 57.1% of that damage shields strength will also be removed from the casters damage taken. Its weird and it just is, got no other explanation for that one. The same can be said of Oblivion damage. I tested only with enchantments so is possible its specific to them but, if the protected target is hit with oblivion damage the last hit the caster took will be dealt again. Every time the enchantment proced the same damage done as the attack the caused the proc was dealt again when the oblivion damage was procced. That being said, the damage taken by the protected target was not diminished, so the effect of Guard did not help but the caster still took damage.
So as we can all see Guard is a very broken and powerful ability, I know my write up is perhaps not the easiest to go through but I really wanted to write this to bring it up. Something needs to change with it, at the very least a fix to what is broken and if possible an overhaul. Though not like the one that happened last where the whole ability was changed, I mean in how it is calculated.
Here are my suggestions for changes.
Let the protected targets mitigation still work but make the overflow damage to the caster Oblivion damage. It would create at least a bit more of a downside to this strong ability and keep buffs and debuffs form changing the damage taken like maim and beserk. OR. Have the 30% be the first damage to be taken away rather than the last but keep the mitigation from the caster, making it so that only the casters mitigation matters, as well, make it so that the damage taken by the caster is the same type as the one that hits the protected target.
I hope this has been informative, even though it was chaotically written. Thank you as well to @Mix and @Tasear for helping me test this.
@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_Finn @ZOS_Wrobel @Gilliamtherogue Please at least fix the incredibly broken parts about this skill.
However.... We all know that if that was all there was to it I would not be making this thread. So the way this ability functions is somewhat complicated and has a few weird things that don't make sense.
First off, the 30% mitigation is calculated last in the protected targets mitigation calculation. This means that ALL sources of mitigation that the protected target might have will be applied before the 30% from Guard, making it so that the damage taken by the caster of Guard is reduced. Oh and when I say all sources of mitigation I mean all sources that can be applied on the type of damage that is being inflicted, for example block mitigation will still not help against unblockable DoTs and stuff, but block will still work with direct damage attacks and such. So again, this lowers the casters damage taken quite a bit depending on the protected targets mitigation, if used on a tank you will get A LOT of mitigation applied before hand. What makes it even worse however is this, the mitigation that the caster has applies to the damage taken as well, with the exception of the casters blocking mitigation. This means that the damage taken by the caster has to go through A LOT, and I mean A METRIC *** TON of mitigation before the caster is actually damaged. Let me give a quick example
Say the caster is a healer protecting a tank or something. The attack is suppose to do 20,000. 30% of 20,000 is 6,000. But using common mitigation stats we can see how much damage is actually taken by the caster.
tank is blocking, has absorb magic, is a DK, 40% in resistance, minor maim, sword and board passive and has 10% from ironclad and hardy. healer gets 20% resistance, and the same CP stats.
20,000*0.5*0.8*0.9*0.92*0.85*0.9*0.9*0.60*0.70=1915.46
20,000*0.5*0.8*0.9*0.92*0.85*0.9*0.9*0.60*0.30*0.8*0.9*0.9=531.95
So the tank gets hit by 1915 out of that original 20,000 and while 30% out of 20,000 is 6,000 the caster only gets hit by 513.
Now as I've mentioned most things that apply mitigation to the caster and the protected target work twice, however there is one thing that does work twice but not in the way you might think. Minor Maim. So minor maim is not direct mitigation, its lowering the damage output of a target, so a PvE boss is hit with minor maim, he does less dmg, straight forward. So how does it work twice here? Well in PvP its not uncommon to have yourself be hit with Minor Maim, and if the target you are protecting gets hit with it, well the damage you will take as the caster is then reduced.
When I tested this I was almost in shock, it blew my mind in a very face palm kind of way. When you are protecting someone, the person hitting them is not the one dealing damage to you, the person you are protecting is! That means that when they are debuffed with minor maim they will do less damage to you. However..... there is a flip side, Minor Beserk will increase the damage you take..... I am serious, when I tested both of these I could barely believe it. This should not be the case, at all. Though while I am at it I will also like to mention that the damage you take as the caster will always be physical damage, regardless of the original damage type that the protected target got hit by.
Anyway, continuing. There are 2 more odd things with guard that have no explanation to them. Oblivion damage and Damage shields. For whatever reason if the protected target used a damage shield roughly 57.1% of that damage shields strength will also be removed from the casters damage taken. Its weird and it just is, got no other explanation for that one. The same can be said of Oblivion damage. I tested only with enchantments so is possible its specific to them but, if the protected target is hit with oblivion damage the last hit the caster took will be dealt again. Every time the enchantment proced the same damage done as the attack the caused the proc was dealt again when the oblivion damage was procced. That being said, the damage taken by the protected target was not diminished, so the effect of Guard did not help but the caster still took damage.
So as we can all see Guard is a very broken and powerful ability, I know my write up is perhaps not the easiest to go through but I really wanted to write this to bring it up. Something needs to change with it, at the very least a fix to what is broken and if possible an overhaul. Though not like the one that happened last where the whole ability was changed, I mean in how it is calculated.
Here are my suggestions for changes.
Let the protected targets mitigation still work but make the overflow damage to the caster Oblivion damage. It would create at least a bit more of a downside to this strong ability and keep buffs and debuffs form changing the damage taken like maim and beserk. OR. Have the 30% be the first damage to be taken away rather than the last but keep the mitigation from the caster, making it so that only the casters mitigation matters, as well, make it so that the damage taken by the caster is the same type as the one that hits the protected target.
I hope this has been informative, even though it was chaotically written. Thank you as well to @Mix and @Tasear for helping me test this.
@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_Finn @ZOS_Wrobel @Gilliamtherogue Please at least fix the incredibly broken parts about this skill.
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Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The last piece of the mitigation puzzle; why guard is OP.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual1 -
TheYKcid✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Thanks for investigating the issue in such depth!
I've always figured there was something fishy about Guard's order of calculations, it simply does too much work. Having a guardbot on a BG team is almost a guaranteed win in most cases.PC/NA — Daggerfall Covenant — BGs, Kaalgrontiid
Kalazar Chalhoub — Redguard Nord Stamplar
Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
Kalahad Cirith — Dunmer Magden1 -
Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Well written
Don't like the oblivion damage suggestion but I like the other suggestion on how to change guard 1 -
paulsimonps✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The last piece of the mitigation puzzle; why guard is OP.Thanks for investigating the issue in such depth!
I've always figured there was something fishy about Guard's order of calculations, it simply does too much work. Having a guardbot on a BG team is almost a guaranteed win in most cases.
It is indeed very powerful in PvP and with the added bonus of a constant Minor Force(most common morph) they can also deal more damage while taking less of it. The extra damage taken by the caster is so minuscule that it barely effects them and just one tiny HoT will clear it off completely.
There needs to be a downside to this, I love the idea of Guard and use it myself but its too strong right now. First suggestion would make it require more Health and or Healing and the second one limits the ability more for tanks only. I do see it as a Tank skill and would prefer it as such, though a healer could just as well out heal it which would keep it in line as a support skill giving both support roles the skill to use. Either use resistance and mitigation to lower the damage or out heal it. But low heal DPSs with low mitigation should not be able to use this without downside to buff each other in such a powerful way.Well written
Don't like the oblivion damage suggestion but I like the other suggestion on how to change guard
Yea, think the 2nd one is probably the better one but I am fine with either changes, or if someone can think of a 3rd better way.0 -
Aznox✭✭✭✭✭When you are protecting someone, the person hitting them is not the one dealing damage to you, the person you are protecting is!Though while I am at it I will also like to mention that the damage you take as the caster will always be physical damage, regardless of the original damage type that the protected target got hit by.
The real question is : can i kill my healer with an implosion proc ?
Aznox
PC EU
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I live in Battlegrounds
Theorycrafting enthusiast
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CP1500+ club1 -
Psyonico✭✭✭I've always liked the idea of guard, but never got to try it out. I'm assuming it needs to be double slotted to stay on your target during bar swaps? That's a bit of a negative that should be factors y into balance0