If shield stacking is so overpowered why isnt every magicka player doing it?

IZZEFlameLash

The_Outsider wrote: »

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

It's just because of the existence of hardened ward really (TL;DR)

1 cheap, big shield for all purpose use + 1 smaller, hyper-efficient shield for sustain + 1 expensive, execute resistant shield that can pop your health back up

^many of the better 1vX type sorcs that still run around rock the triple shield. This combo is 1 reason why the sorc shield stack is so strong-- they have the option of dropping healing ward, cause the combo of the first two are strong enough for many situations by themselves. Conversely with access to only harness/dampen + healing ward, other classes don't have enough shield to keep above execute threshold, which forces more healing wards, which kills the mag pool, which kills them.

having the best shield makes sorcs synergize the best with max magicka. this makes msorcs the most efficient class out there and is another reason why the shield stack is so strong-- 1 stat that maximizes damage and defense simultaneously. The fewer things you have to build for the better you can be at those few things.

we all know this stuff mostly, msorc shield mechanics are known, but I thought I'd type it anyway^ see TL;DR

All shields are about the same cost.

Yeah, that's just not true. Pulling base cost off a build website we have:

Hardened Ward: 3510 (3240 for Empowered)
Harness Magicka: 4590
Healing Ward: 4590

Technically, the cheapest shield is Harness Magicka due to magicka return. Anycase, 3.2k for Empowered isn't on the cheap side of things in terms of general skill costs but you are right that it is cheapest tooltip value among the shields.

Septimus_Magna

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

It's just because of the existence of hardened ward really (TL;DR)

1 cheap, big shield for all purpose use + 1 smaller, hyper-efficient shield for sustain + 1 expensive, execute resistant shield that can pop your health back up

^many of the better 1vX type sorcs that still run around rock the triple shield. This combo is 1 reason why the sorc shield stack is so strong-- they have the option of dropping healing ward, cause the combo of the first two are strong enough for many situations by themselves. Conversely with access to only harness/dampen + healing ward, other classes don't have enough shield to keep above execute threshold, which forces more healing wards, which kills the mag pool, which kills them.

having the best shield makes sorcs synergize the best with max magicka. this makes msorcs the most efficient class out there and is another reason why the shield stack is so strong-- 1 stat that maximizes damage and defense simultaneously. The fewer things you have to build for the better you can be at those few things.

we all know this stuff mostly, msorc shield mechanics are known, but I thought I'd type it anyway^ see TL;DR

All shields are about the same cost.

Yeah, that's just not true. Pulling base cost off a build website we have:

Hardened Ward: 3510 (3240 for Empowered)
Harness Magicka: 4590
Healing Ward: 4590

Technically, the cheapest shield is Harness Magicka due to magicka return. Anycase, 3.2k for Empowered isn't on the cheap side of things in terms of general skill costs but you are right that it is cheapest tooltip value among the shields.

Harness only restores magicka if its hit by spells. So it can be cheaper than Hardened Ward but it depends on what you’re getting hit with.

kadar

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

It's just because of the existence of hardened ward really (TL;DR)

1 cheap, big shield for all purpose use + 1 smaller, hyper-efficient shield for sustain + 1 expensive, execute resistant shield that can pop your health back up

^many of the better 1vX type sorcs that still run around rock the triple shield. This combo is 1 reason why the sorc shield stack is so strong-- they have the option of dropping healing ward, cause the combo of the first two are strong enough for many situations by themselves. Conversely with access to only harness/dampen + healing ward, other classes don't have enough shield to keep above execute threshold, which forces more healing wards, which kills the mag pool, which kills them.

having the best shield makes sorcs synergize the best with max magicka. this makes msorcs the most efficient class out there and is another reason why the shield stack is so strong-- 1 stat that maximizes damage and defense simultaneously. The fewer things you have to build for the better you can be at those few things.

we all know this stuff mostly, msorc shield mechanics are known, but I thought I'd type it anyway^ see TL;DR

All shields are about the same cost.

Yeah, that's just not true. Pulling base cost off a build website we have:

Hardened Ward: 3510 (3240 for Empowered)
Harness Magicka: 4590
Healing Ward: 4590

Technically, the cheapest shield is Harness Magicka due to magicka return. Anycase, 3.2k for Empowered isn't on the cheap side of things in terms of general skill costs but you are right that it is cheapest tooltip value among the shields.

Harness only restores magicka if its hit by spells. So it can be cheaper than Hardened Ward but it depends on what you’re getting hit with.

For sure. I mean, I was totally down to just strikethrough the adjective describing Hardened as "cheap" in the context of shields cause that wasn't really even the point of my original comment, but after fact check, turns out it really is lol

Harness Mag's secondary effect absolutely makes it the most potentially efficient if not the cheapest shield.

1 cheap, big shield for all purpose use + 1 smaller, hyper-efficient shield for sustain + 1 expensive, execute resistant shield that can pop your health back up

DisgracefulMind

Because not every magicka spec has the comfort of being able to stack shields without giving up their sustain, therefore their means to survive.

Knootewoot

Riiight....

*put on shieldbreaker once again on his Bowtard*

Kadoin

I don't do it because I don't wear lich or have a mag pool large enough to do so. Also, its a serious waste of skill slots. Two shields already don't feel any better than one, why would I want 3?

Juhasow

Jaxaxo wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Jaxaxo wrote: »

Tbh, im not playing shield char so dont really have good understanding, but imo shieldstacking is ok, maybe a bit overperforming in 1v1 and hardly underperforming in outnumbered situations (talking from noncp perspective). Problem is i dont really have idea how to fix it. Just trying to highlight problem.

Bolded part reveals bias. Ofc bleedblade will tell that shieldstacking in non CP is perfectly fine but the truth is shields are the weakest form of defense in non CP.

This is one of the issues with shields in general that they can be overpowered in CP and underpowered in non CP in the fight between the same characters.

Ye, like i said, that's personal opinion. And more important imo was part, when i said shields are bad vs more ppl, scalling with amount of ppl is horrible. And dont understand the bias. Shieldstacking is much better vs bleedblade than blocking for example. Rock-paper-scissor. The problem is some of defense options (wings, cloak, rolling, blocking) are sometimes overperforming to much vs other playstyles.

Problem is Your personal opinion is based on never playing competitively on magicka build relying on shields so You just have incomplete one sided look at things from the perspective of mostly non CP easy and effective setup user. In non CP shields are just weak overall more attackers just makes shields useless at some point if You want to just rely on them. Magicka characters loose 5k+ magicka in non CP which is pretty high hit for ability that scales purely from max magicka not mentioning CP that increases shields strenght is also gone so while other defense types like block or dodge will remain unchanged in their effectiveness or even stronger in non CP shields are getting hit by a lot. Only healing ward which have classic scaling from both stats is somehow reliable. Shieldstacking is barely existant in non CP and stamblade will always get through it because while yes shields are somehow better for taking bleeds then block , block is better against any other dmg. Comparing block and shieldstacking from non CP perspective just in 1 dmg type scenario is silly. Rock-paper-scissors is worst balancing idea anyone could wish in competitive game. If build is what matters first then it lowers the skill requirements what we can see currently with few builds.

Also ESO presents very unhealthy version of rock-paper-scissors where certain setups have regular adventage over other that can be bypassed with skill difference but some of them just completly nulify other setups and requires little of skill from user. Also there are situation where certain setup can have adventage over multiple other setups and still be competitive against the rest when at the same time different build can just be good agaisnt 1-2 specific setups and mediocre or bad agaisnt rest. This is not how rock-papaer-scissors works.

arkansas_ESO

Ankael07 wrote: »

So why arent magicka DKs, Templars, NBs or Wardens stacking Harness and Healing Ward?

Because Healing Ward doesn't work like Hardened Ward? It isn't a shield that you layer with, it's a heal, and it's only worth casting once you're at low health.

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Technically, the cheapest shield is Harness Magicka due to magicka return. Anycase, 3.2k for Empowered isn't on the cheap side of things in terms of general skill costs but you are right that it is cheapest tooltip value among the shields.

Harness returns magicka, but at the cost of losing out on the ~25% bigger shield from Dampen, and only returns magicka when hit with spells. Hardened is consistently cheap (compared to other shields), and can be layered with Harness for the magicka return.

TL;DR: Only sorcs stack shields because they're the only ones that really can.

Xsorus

Because you get three shields with sorc and two with everyone else.

IZZEFlameLash

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Ankael07 wrote: »

So why arent magicka DKs, Templars, NBs or Wardens stacking Harness and Healing Ward?

Because Healing Ward doesn't work like Hardened Ward? It isn't a shield that you layer with, it's a heal, and it's only worth casting once you're at low health.

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Technically, the cheapest shield is Harness Magicka due to magicka return. Anycase, 3.2k for Empowered isn't on the cheap side of things in terms of general skill costs but you are right that it is cheapest tooltip value among the shields.

Harness returns magicka, but at the cost of losing out on the ~25% bigger shield from Dampen, and only returns magicka when hit with spells. Hardened is consistently cheap (compared to other shields), and can be layered with Harness for the magicka return.

TL;DR: Only sorcs stack shields because they're the only ones that really can.

I use Harness Magicka because my pool is bigger than yours! :P but anyways, I am just stating the technicallity. It is 1.2k discount basically on Harness shield with a shield size that can last one hit.

Drdeath20

Skoomah wrote: »

Different classes are designed to mitigate damage different ways.

Templars - Big fat heals, House, Cleanse
Dragonknight - Block, Immobilizations
Warden - Speed, Big fat burst heals
Nightblade - Cloak, Shade, Shields
Sorcerors - Shields, Streak, Mines, Rune Cage

So it all depends on how the class was meant to be played.

Lolz. I just cant even bruh

KingExecration

Xsorus wrote: »

Because you get three shields with sorc and two with everyone else.

"But what about the third shield DK and templar have access to?!?!"

You know there's gonna be that one person lmao

SHADOW2KK

Couple of years too late OP

danno8

From a Magplar perspective...

Magplar has big heals right? So to use our class defense we need to actually take damage to our health since, unlike shields, overhealing does nothing for you.

Because Templars need to take damage to use their main defense, it means we need a way to mitigate damage when we get low health so we are not instagibbed. That typically means blocking.

So we need to build in some blocking mitigation in our sets and traits. Which lowers our offense and healing BTW.

Sorcerers main defense, shields, can be used effectively at any time, need no other form of mitigation added to their builds and the same stats that pad shield strength also pad other offensive stats.

I hope this helps to explain why Templars do not stack two smallish shields due to how detrimental it would be to their survival.

Ragnarock41

leepalmer95 wrote: »

They're really not OP.

Anyone who still cries about them obviously doesn't play the class or isn't a good player.

With the amount of free dmg in this game, 3-4 average players will melt a sorc just because of proc sets and things like dot poisons.

Shields are strong 1v1 and maybe 1v2 depending on who is attacking but they scale horrible with more people unlike things like heavy armour or dodge roll.

3 4 average players can melt any single foe. You think heavy armor will save you from. 3 or 4 people? One is all thats needed. 2 bleeds, one incap or potl and you are already dead.

SilverWF

I would be happy to have 20k shield on my magNB, but this is impossible, sadly. Please, don't even try to post a screens with Healing Ward, casted at 1% HP - we all know this is BS.

Yes, Cloak... That Cloak, that breaks from your own DOTs on the enemy, from AOE damage, from detect pots with crazy 20m radius...

NupidStoob

Shield stacking op? I thought it's 2018 and people would've learned to count to 5 by now.

Sorcs have 3 shields and one of them can be used as mainshield while the two other are for utiltiy. Other classes don't have that luxury, but other classes do have defense options a Sorc simply doesn't have. Nobody is playing SnB on mSorc like people do on mPlar or mDK simply because the class has no good selfheal nor any sustain bonuses when it comes to blocking.

Meta has developed the way it has so that every class is using the best possible defense for them. Sometimes someone will discover a new way to do certain things and that is how meta evolves. It is however unlikely right now that someone will suddenly find a great alternative for mSorcs to defend themselves.

Stibbons

Sorc just have the biggest shields to stack and streak to safety. That´s why.

visionality

Ankael07 wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

They're really not OP.

Anyone who still cries about them obviously doesn't play the class or isn't a good player.

With the amount of free dmg in this game, 3-4 average players will melt a sorc just because of proc sets and things like dot poisons.

Shields are strong 1v1 and maybe 1v2 depending on who is attacking but they scale horribly with more people unlike things like heavy armour or dodge roll.

Thats why I think its about time we drop the Shield Stacking meta and give alternative defenses instead. For example, Encase gets increased Vitality duration per enemy rooted and thats a good start.

Ball of Lightning is a likely candidate for the next buff. Along with spell projectiles, it should also absorb stamina projectiles as well (only if shield stacking is removed)

If we have different kind of defenses like this it would open up a much more diverse and situational combat styles. Just spamming 2-3 shields for everything is boring and uncreative

Uhh ... you really think ZOS would ever buff a sorc skill? Last buff (rune cage) was ONLY done because it was connected to a heavy nerf (frags stun), and with the lastest patch, rune cage was nerfed back. So esentially all you see is nerf, nerf, nerf when it comes to sorc skills.

visionality

Rofl ... and instantly proven right:

Patch notes of today:
Sorcerer
Dark Magic
Rune Prison: Reduced the duration of this ability to 2 seconds from 3.5 seconds.

Kikke

Why do everyone think sorcs ONLY use necro and stack mag for shields? You do know the avg sorc got 30k mag in noCP and ~35k mag in cp.

With hardened + harness I got 30k shields.

30k dmg shields with 0 mitigation gets killed fast with todays power creep.

Its on such a level now that if you DONT stack mag and spam 3 shields, your shields will be too weak.

My own main defence on my MagSorc in current meta is dodge rolls, because they are ALOT better then shields.

Also, who conplains about sorcs anymore? PvP is full of flappy wings DKs, so not much a sorc can do anymore.

Kikke

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Because not every magicka spec has the comfort of being able to stack shields without giving up their sustain, therefore their means to survive.

And what sustain does mSorcs have you dont have? If we do run mag stack for bigger shields. What sustain? Sorcs build into 1 or 2 sustain sets BECAUSE we need too sustain it. But this is a fact people dont know or dont care about.

Kikke

On my templar I run a tanky set and a sustain set
On my DK I run a tanky set and a dmg set
On my warden I run a tanky and dmg set
On my sorc I run two sustain sets

On my NBs I run dubble dmg sets.

Now, who were we complaining about again?

Kikke

visionality wrote: »

Rofl ... and instantly proven right:

Patch notes of today:
Sorcerer
Dark Magic
Rune Prison: Reduced the duration of this ability to 2 seconds from 3.5 seconds.

This was a buff xD now you actually have a SLIGHT chance to do the dmg xP noone would ever sit there for 3.5sec, but 2sec might work more often

NBrookus

visionality wrote: »

Rofl ... and instantly proven right:

Patch notes of today:
Sorcerer
Dark Magic
Rune Prison: Reduced the duration of this ability to 2 seconds from 3.5 seconds.

It's a buff. People have less time to CC break before taking the damage, and given the lag and wonky CC break, that's likely to be often now.

Cursa

Always see people just say ‘count to 5 it’s easy’ etc, but I don’t know any sorcs that just let their shields drop, another common one is ‘lol just run them out of stamina they only have 9k Stam it’s easy’, and again that would be a bad sorcs choice to run such a small stamina pool and sustain.. even just wearing the old amberplasm and shacklebreaker combo brings 12k+ stamina and 1.1k+ Stam regen.

The problem with shields is that it’s too easy to use, and it would be awesome if there was a higher skill gap with it.
A new/lowcp/inexperienced player of most other classes will be pretty easy to kill in pvp as they have a hard time to balance healing and defense/sustain and need to practice this in order to learn to survive, but you can stick a person who has never played eso on a sorc with decent gear and you have a player who can do high damage from range and when they are attacked can just hit shield 50 times and keep streaking.

Don’t get me wrong there are great sorcs out there and if there was a change made to reflect this skill issue that they should be no less effective, I just think that it’s too easy to survive for too long for someone with less skill in the class.
As for how you could change it I have no clue!

Cursa

And to reply to op, other classes do stack harness and healing ward, especially magblade, it’s just that other classes can’t do it as well as sorc and instead build towards their classes natural defence instead.

Feanor

The great Wrobler has shields next on his nerf list according to the class rep notes because they „overshadow“ healers. Maybe we should just really all play NBs and sit in stealth all day.

Enslaved

Ankael07 wrote: »

Generally speaking, I see Sorcerers stack Hardened Ward with either Harness Magicka or Healing Ward. So why arent magicka DKs, Templars, NBs or Wardens stacking Harness and Healing Ward?

Could it be because those classes have better alternatives? DKs have Wings and good heal from their Leash and Battle Roar, NBs have HoTs, cloak and shades, Templars have good self-heal and Wardens also come with good self-HoT and Crystallized Shield.

Lets keep the discussion civil so we can come up with a result to the Class Representatives

because not all classes have hardened ward, duh.

Minno

danno8 wrote: »

From a Magplar perspective...

Magplar has big heals right? So to use our class defense we need to actually take damage to our health since, unlike shields, overhealing does nothing for you.

Because Templars need to take damage to use their main defense, it means we need a way to mitigate damage when we get low health so we are not instagibbed. That typically means blocking.

So we need to build in some blocking mitigation in our sets and traits. Which lowers our offense and healing BTW.

Sorcerers main defense, shields, can be used effectively at any time, need no other form of mitigation added to their builds and the same stats that pad shield strength also pad other offensive stats.

I hope this helps to explain why Templars do not stack two smallish shields due to how detrimental it would be to their survival.

That's because healing is a utility not a defense.

For example, block casting a BOL. Is the defense the heal? Nope the block is the defense the heal is the utility to escape execute range.

If healing was there defacto defense tool for Templar/wardens then no other class would have those tools or access to those same tools. But classes have access to a heal, and in some cases are designed around the strength of the class (like sorcs having heals on crits, DK having a heal that is boosted by % of health cost, nightblades having a burst heal on ultimate, etc).

Templars are very efficient with the skill trees that allow them to defend/attack, but Templars lack a defacto defensive ability that also are designed around their strengths compared to the other classes.