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If shield stacking is so overpowered why isnt every magicka player doing it?

Ankael07
Ankael07
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Generally speaking, I see Sorcerers stack Hardened Ward with either Harness Magicka or Healing Ward. So why arent magicka DKs, Templars, NBs or Wardens stacking Harness and Healing Ward?

Could it be because those classes have better alternatives? DKs have Wings and good heal from their Leash and Battle Roar, NBs have HoTs, cloak and shades, Templars have good self-heal and Wardens also come with good self-HoT and Crystallized Shield.

Lets keep the discussion civil so we can come up with a result to the Class Representatives
Edited by Ankael07 on August 16, 2018 12:15PM
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  • Jaxaxo
    Jaxaxo
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    Tbh, im not playing shield char so dont really have good understanding, but imo shieldstacking is ok, maybe a bit overperforming in 1v1 and hardly underperforming in outnumbered situations (talking from noncp perspective). Problem is i dont really have idea how to fix it. Just trying to highlight problem.
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  • Rianai
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    Healing Ward is pretty useless at full health and too expensive to be spammed. Harness is a rather small shield and Dampen is hard to sustain. Sorcs can combine one big (and relatively cheap) shield with the sustain from Harness. Other classes can't.
    That being said, for dueling with CP (maybe noCP too, idk) i think shields are better for a magblade (with Necro) than cloak, because those allow offense and defense at the same time, though heavy armor with lots of healing might still be better. As soon there is more than 1 enemy Cloak becomes superior to more shields or heals though. Templars and DKs have a harder time at stacking max magicka (no class magicka bonus, no pet to proc Necro), and their passives synergize better with heavy armor, heals, block - all things that don't mix well with shields.

    Edit: Without CP even stacking Harness and Hardened doesn't really feel op to me.
    Edited by Rianai on August 16, 2018 1:15PM
  • SilverWF
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    Ankael07 wrote: »
    Generally speaking, I see Sorcerers stack Hardened Ward with either Harness Magicka or Healing Ward. So why arent magicka DKs, Templars, NBs or Wardens stacking Harness and Healing Ward?

    Could it be because those classes have better alternatives? DKs have Wings and good heal from their Leash and Battle Roar, NBs have HoTs, cloak and shades, Templars have good self-heal and Wardens also come with good self-HoT and Crystallized Shield.

    Lets keep the discussion civil so we can come up with a result to the Class Representatives

    Coz, 1 Hardened Ward kinda equal to Harness and Healing combined?
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  • technohic
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    I think a lot of NBs have done so recently but its gone more toward a heavy armor with proc set meta for them.

    Magplar I suppose could but I think a lot of them have been using proc sets to supplement their damage and they are more pressure damage than burst. Heals alone with light armor would not cut it for sure.

    Dont have a magdk or warden so not sure but I guess the end of the day, most of the other classes synergize better with heavy armor and procs, particularly with DOTs and channeled abilities, and you cant really stack shields at full health with only one shield available and it is not as solid as hardened ward.
  • Ankael07
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    Rianai wrote: »
    Healing Ward is pretty useless at full health and too expensive to be spammed. Harness is a rather small shield and Dampen is hard to sustain. Sorcs can combine one big (and relatively cheap) shield with the sustain from Harness. Other classes can't.
    That being said, for dueling with CP (maybe noCP too, idk) i think shields are better for a magblade (with Necro) than cloak, because those allow offense and defense at the same time, though heavy armor with lots of healing might still be better. As soon there is more than 1 enemy Cloak becomes superior to more shields or heals though. Templars and DKs have a harder time at stacking max magicka (no class magicka bonus, no pet to proc Necro), and their passives synergize better with heavy armor, heals, block - all things that don't mix well with shields.

    Combining Hardened with Harness seems inefficient to me as a Sorc. The class doesnt have proper healing to get themselves back up should they get caught with shields down. Especially when you consider the Oblivion damage meta we're in
    SilverWF wrote: »
    Coz, 1 Hardened Ward kinda equal to Harness and Healing combined?

    Healing Ward isnt meant to be used in full HP so what you said is irrelevant

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  • leepalmer95
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    They're really not OP.

    Anyone who still cries about them obviously doesn't play the class or isn't a good player.

    With the amount of free dmg in this game, 3-4 average players will melt a sorc just because of proc sets and things like dot poisons.

    Shields are strong 1v1 and maybe 1v2 depending on who is attacking but they scale horrible with more people unlike things like heavy armour or dodge roll.
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  • Ankael07
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    They're really not OP.

    Anyone who still cries about them obviously doesn't play the class or isn't a good player.

    With the amount of free dmg in this game, 3-4 average players will melt a sorc just because of proc sets and things like dot poisons.

    Shields are strong 1v1 and maybe 1v2 depending on who is attacking but they scale horribly with more people unlike things like heavy armour or dodge roll.

    Thats why I think its about time we drop the Shield Stacking meta and give alternative defenses instead. For example, Encase gets increased Vitality duration per enemy rooted and thats a good start.

    Ball of Lightning is a likely candidate for the next buff. Along with spell projectiles, it should also absorb stamina projectiles as well (only if shield stacking is removed)

    If we have different kind of defenses like this it would open up a much more diverse and situational combat styles. Just spamming 2-3 shields for everything is boring and uncreative
    Edited by Ankael07 on August 16, 2018 1:34PM
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  • Beardimus
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    Its a great question OP, people spam these forums about triple stacking beast sorcs, yet everyone can stack two AND (most importantly) still have their class defence / mitigation etc .

    There are downsides, the cost of active defence, and the lack of output as you do it, but more that they dont scale against multiple attackers etc.

    anyone quoting the Harness / Hardened difference probably hasnt actually checked the tooltip / actual difference. Or convieniently ignore the fact Dampen Magic is bigger still if ur sustain is already ok.

    Its a Paper>Rock>Scissor debate but sadly the NerfSorc brigade is numerous.
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  • RedRook
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    Because the other classes don't have great class shields. Sorc does, so playing to that strength is a good move for a sorc.
  • Juhasow
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    Jaxaxo wrote: »
    Tbh, im not playing shield char so dont really have good understanding, but imo shieldstacking is ok, maybe a bit overperforming in 1v1 and hardly underperforming in outnumbered situations (talking from noncp perspective). Problem is i dont really have idea how to fix it. Just trying to highlight problem.

    Bolded part reveals bias. Ofc bleedblade will tell that shieldstacking in non CP is perfectly fine but the truth is shields are the weakest form of defense in non CP.

    This is one of the issues with shields in general that they can be overpowered in CP and underpowered in non CP in the fight between the same characters.

    Edited by Juhasow on August 16, 2018 2:01PM
  • SilverWF
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    Ankael07 wrote: »
    SilverWF wrote: »
    Coz, 1 Hardened Ward kinda equal to Harness and Healing combined?

    Healing Ward isnt meant to be used in full HP so what you said is irrelevant

    Thank you, Captain Obvious.
    You will use it at ~40-50% and still it wouldn't be pretty strong.
    If use it at lower HP - you'll be oneshotted from some kind of executes. You can't use it at the exact 27% i.e., because the game servers constantly lagging and the netcode is crap. Lol, after the last update I'm getting loading screens while moving fast sometimes even in the PVE!
    RedRook wrote: »
    Because the other classes don't have great class shields. Sorc does, so playing to that strength is a good move for a sorc.

    Not only 'great' but also 'cheap'
    No any of this: cloak, BoL or Wings can be named as 'cheap', even for mag characters.
    Edited by SilverWF on August 16, 2018 1:55PM
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  • Jaxaxo
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    Juhasow wrote: »
    Jaxaxo wrote: »
    Tbh, im not playing shield char so dont really have good understanding, but imo shieldstacking is ok, maybe a bit overperforming in 1v1 and hardly underperforming in outnumbered situations (talking from noncp perspective). Problem is i dont really have idea how to fix it. Just trying to highlight problem.

    Bolded part reveals bias. Ofc bleedblade will tell that shieldstacking in non CP is perfectly fine but the truth is shields are the weakest form of defense in non CP.

    This is one of the issues with shields in general that they can be overpowered in CP and underpowered in non CP in the fight between the same characters.

    Ye, like i said, that's personal opinion. And more important imo was part, when i said shields are bad vs more ppl, scalling with amount of ppl is horrible. And dont understand the bias. Shieldstacking is much better vs bleedblade than blocking for example. Rock-paper-scissor. The problem is some of defense options (wings, cloak, rolling, blocking) are sometimes overperforming to much vs other playstyles.
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  • helios777
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    this is now a nerf sorc thread
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  • Priyasekarssk
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    Ankael07 wrote: »
    Generally speaking, I see Sorcerers stack Hardened Ward with either Harness Magicka or Healing Ward. So why arent magicka DKs, Templars, NBs or Wardens stacking Harness and Healing Ward?

    Could it be because those classes have better alternatives? DKs have Wings and good heal from their Leash and Battle Roar, NBs have HoTs, cloak and shades, Templars have good self-heal and Wardens also come with good self-HoT and Crystallized Shield.

    Lets keep the discussion civil so we can come up with a result to the Class Representatives

    Sorcrers lack bust heal. Their only option of survival is shield stack. For mag dk and wardens are optional , even though their shields are a lot much stronger than sorcs , nobody bother using it . DKs wings absorbs upto 4 projectie equates 20-30K damage. On top it reflects ultimates directly at you. Warden shimmering shields are riduclous , not only absorbs damage, provides ultimate.

    NBs have cloak and crit heal, barely they need a shield. Magic NBs can still do shields stack on top of cloak and remain immortal.

    Templars do shields stacking on top of burst heal for survival.
    Edited by Priyasekarssk on August 16, 2018 2:55PM
  • Priyasekarssk
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    RedRook wrote: »
    Because the other classes don't have great class shields. Sorc does, so playing to that strength is a good move for a sorc.

    Wardens & DKs have best shields in the game. DKs shields stacking is ridiculous on top of heavy armor.
    Edited by Priyasekarssk on August 16, 2018 2:56PM
  • SilverWF
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    RedRook wrote: »
    Because the other classes don't have great class shields. Sorc does, so playing to that strength is a good move for a sorc.

    Wardens & DKs have best shields in the game. DKs shields stacking is ridiculous on top of heavy armor.

    Without numbers this is just words.
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  • Septimus_Magna
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    Shield stacking is not about frantically protecting your health bar. Most sorcs know how to stack Healing Ward, Harness and Hardened Ward. If you stack them the right way you get the big heal (if you are low health) and mag restored from Harness.

    I personally stopped using Hardened Ward because the duration of Empowered Ward is big bonus. Normally I keep Empowered Ward up, once someone burst through that shield and I drop low on health I use Healing Ward, Harness and Empowered Ward to get back to full health and restore some magicka.

    If you stack shields wrong they will burst through Healing Ward and you wont get the heal. Without Harness good players could probably still burst through Hardened and half way through Healing Ward, reducing the heal. For me shield stacking is about reliably getting a strong heal while being protected.
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  • Zeromaz
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    Its a sorc signature thing to do because of the limited window you have to pressure someone when you are spamming shields to keep from dying. Sorcs use that small window very well to turn the fight in their favor. Other classes don’t have the great delayed burst, passive execute, set and forget execute, instant cast hard hitting frags.
  • leepalmer95
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    RedRook wrote: »
    Because the other classes don't have great class shields. Sorc does, so playing to that strength is a good move for a sorc.

    Wardens & DKs have best shields in the game. DKs shields stacking is ridiculous on top of heavy armor.

    It's pointless stacking shields in heavy, it negates the benefits of heavy which is the high armour.
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  • Skoomah
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    Different classes are designed to mitigate damage different ways.

    Templars - Big fat heals, House, Cleanse
    Dragonknight - Block, Immobilizations
    Warden - Speed, Big fat burst heals
    Nightblade - Cloak, Shade, Shields
    Sorcerors - Shields, Streak, Mines, Rune Cage

    So it all depends on how the class was meant to be played.
    Edited by Skoomah on August 16, 2018 5:55PM
  • kadar
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    It's just because of the existence of hardened ward really (TL;DR)

    1 cheap, big shield for all purpose use + 1 smaller, hyper-efficient shield for sustain + 1 expensive, execute resistant shield that can pop your health back up

    ^many of the better 1vX type sorcs that still run around rock the triple shield. This combo is 1 reason why the sorc shield stack is so strong-- they have the option of dropping healing ward, cause the combo of the first two are strong enough for many situations by themselves. Conversely with access to only harness/dampen + healing ward, other classes don't have enough shield to keep above execute threshold, which forces more healing wards, which kills the mag pool, which kills them.

    having the best shield makes sorcs synergize the best with max magicka. this makes msorcs the most efficient class out there and is another reason why the shield stack is so strong-- 1 stat that maximizes damage and defense simultaneously. The fewer things you have to build for the better you can be at those few things.

    we all know this stuff mostly, msorc shield mechanics are known, but I thought I'd type it anyway^ see TL;DR
  • NBrookus
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    Except for a few niche builds, magDK and magplar just can't get their magicka levels high enough for shield stacking to pay off as a primary defense. They also lack Streak (or similar) as a repositioning skill, so any shield they put up is eaten quickly by damage they can't avoid. So while some people use shields on these classes, it's used in combination with other mitigation.

    Sorcs don't really have another source of mitigation. (Well other than "kill the other guy fast.") They have to use shields. If people want to see shield stacking go away, the devs need to give sorcs an alternative to stacking shields that works for the class.
    Edited by NBrookus on August 16, 2018 7:14PM
  • IZZEFlameLash
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    It's just because of the existence of hardened ward really (TL;DR)

    1 cheap, big shield for all purpose use + 1 smaller, hyper-efficient shield for sustain + 1 expensive, execute resistant shield that can pop your health back up

    ^many of the better 1vX type sorcs that still run around rock the triple shield. This combo is 1 reason why the sorc shield stack is so strong-- they have the option of dropping healing ward, cause the combo of the first two are strong enough for many situations by themselves. Conversely with access to only harness/dampen + healing ward, other classes don't have enough shield to keep above execute threshold, which forces more healing wards, which kills the mag pool, which kills them.

    having the best shield makes sorcs synergize the best with max magicka. this makes msorcs the most efficient class out there and is another reason why the shield stack is so strong-- 1 stat that maximizes damage and defense simultaneously. The fewer things you have to build for the better you can be at those few things.

    we all know this stuff mostly, msorc shield mechanics are known, but I thought I'd type it anyway^ see TL;DR

    Hardened Ward isn't that cheap.

    Anyways, mDKs and mTemplars are forced to make the most concessions out of all classes. So they cannot really go all deep in max magicka to have good shield. Their sustain (mDKs in particular) suffers whole lot more. And they really don't have good source of pet procs for easy Necropotence benefits. I've ran max magicka DK before. It hits harder than the builds I play currently but survivability isn't much different as I can only have one real shield.
    Edited by IZZEFlameLash on August 16, 2018 10:54PM
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  • kadar
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    Hardened Ward isn't that cheap.
    Not at home so can't confirm atm, but I believe it's cheap in relation to the other shields available.
  • WuffyCerulei
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    I think it's the cost. Harness/Dampen Magicka and Healing Ward are expensive. Harness/Dampen Magicka cost about 4500 at base cost and Healing Ward is 4590 base cost. Obviously it'd be cheaper with certain passives, but not all classes have reduce cost passive. Onky sorcs and templars have ability cost reduction passives. Sorcs have the easiest time doing shield-stacking, as their main shield, Hardened Ward, only has a base cost of 3510 magicka, and they have an ability cost reduction passive of 5%. Not to mention they have a magicka recovery passive as well. All that just makes it easier to sustian shield-stacking.
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  • Micah_Bayer
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    It's just because of the existence of hardened ward really (TL;DR)

    1 cheap, big shield for all purpose use + 1 smaller, hyper-efficient shield for sustain + 1 expensive, execute resistant shield that can pop your health back up

    ^many of the better 1vX type sorcs that still run around rock the triple shield. This combo is 1 reason why the sorc shield stack is so strong-- they have the option of dropping healing ward, cause the combo of the first two are strong enough for many situations by themselves. Conversely with access to only harness/dampen + healing ward, other classes don't have enough shield to keep above execute threshold, which forces more healing wards, which kills the mag pool, which kills them.

    having the best shield makes sorcs synergize the best with max magicka. this makes msorcs the most efficient class out there and is another reason why the shield stack is so strong-- 1 stat that maximizes damage and defense simultaneously. The fewer things you have to build for the better you can be at those few things.

    we all know this stuff mostly, msorc shield mechanics are known, but I thought I'd type it anyway^ see TL;DR

    All shields are about the same cost.
  • kadar
    kadar
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    It's just because of the existence of hardened ward really (TL;DR)

    1 cheap, big shield for all purpose use + 1 smaller, hyper-efficient shield for sustain + 1 expensive, execute resistant shield that can pop your health back up

    ^many of the better 1vX type sorcs that still run around rock the triple shield. This combo is 1 reason why the sorc shield stack is so strong-- they have the option of dropping healing ward, cause the combo of the first two are strong enough for many situations by themselves. Conversely with access to only harness/dampen + healing ward, other classes don't have enough shield to keep above execute threshold, which forces more healing wards, which kills the mag pool, which kills them.

    having the best shield makes sorcs synergize the best with max magicka. this makes msorcs the most efficient class out there and is another reason why the shield stack is so strong-- 1 stat that maximizes damage and defense simultaneously. The fewer things you have to build for the better you can be at those few things.

    we all know this stuff mostly, msorc shield mechanics are known, but I thought I'd type it anyway^ see TL;DR

    All shields are about the same cost.
    Yeah, that's just not true. Pulling base cost off a build website we have:

    Hardened Ward: 3510 (3240 for Empowered)
    Harness Magicka: 4590
    Healing Ward: 4590
    Edited by kadar on August 17, 2018 1:08AM
  • Priyasekarssk
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    Wardens & DKs have best shields in the game. DKs shields stacking is ridiculous on top of heavy armor. [/quote]

    Without numbers this is just words.[/quote]

    What numbers do you want ? DK 4 spell reflect = 20K+ damage even on non CP campaign. It also reflect ultimate as well. Also it damages the opponents at their resource expense. Warden have around 30K + shield even in non champ campaign. Hardened ward only 8K in non CP campaign. DK sheilds and warden are far better in numbers for shields. Are you even not bother to understand it or try to learn ? I dont bother anyway. Uninstalled the game. Not planning to comeback.

    Thats why many people are running after DKs & warden.
    Edited by Priyasekarssk on August 17, 2018 2:37AM
  • BRogueNZ
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    well..
    ZoS thinks templars only need a shield if they have 80k HP
    Sorcs can 1 v X with an unwavering 18k health but you know, poor sorcs
  • HowlKimchi
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    Because magicka classes play to their strengths.

    -Sorcs shield stack because they have hardened ward and they only need to build max magicka for their defense and offense
    -Magblade’s shields are generally smaller but supplement it with either shadow image or cloak, they may also go the HoT heavy armor route with healing ward as a “burst heal”
    -Magplars have that oh so good cleanse and a nice burst heal so they can generally take more damage on their hp pool
    -MagDKs have wings and some good HoTs and can heal while on the offense (whip and leap)
    -Not sure about mag wardens though, i know they can use shields along with their green balance skills for heals but haven’t seen enough to draw conclusions.
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