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Altmer or Dunmer. Which culture is more "advanced"?
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psychotrip✭✭✭✭✭
✭usmguy1234 wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »It depends on what you mean by "more advanced society." The Telvanni are amazing wizards, but as long as they continue to enslave Argonians (or anybody) they remain barbarians. It's not a trivial consideration, even if you'd like it to be.
If you limit the conversation to tech and magical advances only, I don't think anybody we've seen so far can match Sotha Sil. He's also playing with power that will eventually come at a very high cost to his people. He may have murdered a friend to keep that power. Smart and advanced?
I defined what I meant by "advanced" in the first post since I know it can be a very broad topic. I was mostly talking about scientific / magical advancement as opposed to cultural advancement, which is far more subjective.
I understand that and my argument is you cannot seperate the two. The less a society has to focus on menial tasks the more time it has to focus on inventions/science/ life improvements. With that being said you have to decide what is more impressive...a culture that did everything for themselves and were still fairly advanced magically/ scientifically/ etc. Or one that was advanced but due to the subjugation of other cultures.
And yet they didn't do everything themselves. They had slaves for the majority of their history. And the dunmer also live in the most inhospitable place in Tamriel. You seem to only be factoring in the things that make the Altmer seem more impressive, while ignoring the same for the dunmer.
But we're arguing different things. I'm asking who is more advanced, not which society is more impressive.
Rome and Egypt were super advanced for their time too... but would they have been as advanced without millions of slaves? I think the answer is no... same goes for the dumner. The altmer/ goblin relationship is more akin to the first settlers of the Americas to the native Americans.
Again dude, we're talking about two different things. I don't know why you keep focusing on this. I'm asking whose more advanced, not which one is more impressive, moral, or had more advantages. And again, you seem to be brushing aside everything that doesn't fit your narrative while magnifying everything that does.
“The Altmer are proud, conceited, and decadent. Their clothes, manners, arts, and crafts are highly refined, but they are godless and spiritually empty. They content themselves with reliving the aged glories of their martial traditions and their mastery of sorcery and enchantment. Their achievements are admirable, but their culture no longer serves any vital purpose.”
- Nobles of Morrowind
Even the dumner hint around that the altmer are superior in refinements and sorcery. The dumner even look at them as godless because of this reason. The altmer are more advanced and the dumner more barbaric.
Yeah but can you list any examples of what makes the Altmer more advanced? Anything that wasn't later proven to be an "exaggeration"? Those same npcs also described Cyrodiil as a jungle. Most of the Morrowind-era lore has been retconned.
It's part of the lore and so you have to take it as such.... you can't throw it out because it doesn't fit your native or so as you've told me.
Actually I think you misunderstand: I agree with most of what you're saying, even if I think your examples are very biased. It also doesn't really address my question. We can talk all day about whether or not the dunmer had it easier because of their massive slave force, but that's not what this thread is about.
Back on topic though: you've yet to really show me concrete examples of what makes the Altmer more advanced than the Dunmer. If you're going to take Morrowind dialogue as gospel, then Cyrodiil is still a jungle.
It's not.
So, based on the current lore and what we've actually SEEN, what makes the Altmer more magically / scientifically advanced than the Dunmer?Edited by psychotrip on August 11, 2018 7:25PMNo one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".
We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭psychotrip wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »It depends on what you mean by "more advanced society." The Telvanni are amazing wizards, but as long as they continue to enslave Argonians (or anybody) they remain barbarians. It's not a trivial consideration, even if you'd like it to be.
If you limit the conversation to tech and magical advances only, I don't think anybody we've seen so far can match Sotha Sil. He's also playing with power that will eventually come at a very high cost to his people. He may have murdered a friend to keep that power. Smart and advanced?
I defined what I meant by "advanced" in the first post since I know it can be a very broad topic. I was mostly talking about scientific / magical advancement as opposed to cultural advancement, which is far more subjective.
I understand that and my argument is you cannot seperate the two. The less a society has to focus on menial tasks the more time it has to focus on inventions/science/ life improvements. With that being said you have to decide what is more impressive...a culture that did everything for themselves and were still fairly advanced magically/ scientifically/ etc. Or one that was advanced but due to the subjugation of other cultures.
And yet they didn't do everything themselves. They had slaves for the majority of their history. And the dunmer also live in the most inhospitable place in Tamriel. You seem to only be factoring in the things that make the Altmer seem more impressive, while ignoring the same for the dunmer.
But we're arguing different things. I'm asking who is more advanced, not which society is more impressive.
Rome and Egypt were super advanced for their time too... but would they have been as advanced without millions of slaves? I think the answer is no... same goes for the dumner. The altmer/ goblin relationship is more akin to the first settlers of the Americas to the native Americans.
Again dude, we're talking about two different things. I don't know why you keep focusing on this. I'm asking whose more advanced, not which one is more impressive, moral, or had more advantages. And again, you seem to be brushing aside everything that doesn't fit your narrative while magnifying everything that does.
“The Altmer are proud, conceited, and decadent. Their clothes, manners, arts, and crafts are highly refined, but they are godless and spiritually empty. They content themselves with reliving the aged glories of their martial traditions and their mastery of sorcery and enchantment. Their achievements are admirable, but their culture no longer serves any vital purpose.”
- Nobles of Morrowind
Even the dumner hint around that the altmer are superior in refinements and sorcery. The dumner even look at them as godless because of this reason. The altmer are more advanced and the dumner more barbaric.
Yeah but can you list any examples of what makes the Altmer more advanced? Anything that wasn't later proven to be an "exaggeration"? Those same npcs also described Cyrodiil as a jungle. Most of the Morrowind-era lore has been retconned.
It's part of the lore and so you have to take it as such.... you can't throw it out because it doesn't fit your native or so as you've told me.
Actually I think you misunderstand: I agree with most of what you're saying, even if I think your examples are very biased. It also doesn't really address my question. We can talk all day about whether or not the dunmer had it easier because of their massive slave force, but that's not what this thread is about.
Back on topic though: you've yet to really show me concrete examples of what makes the Altmer more advanced than the Dunmer. If you're going to take Morrowind dialogue as gospel, then Cyrodiil is still a jungle.
It's not.
So, based on the current lore and what we've actually SEEN, what makes the Altmer more magically / scientifically advanced than the Dunmer?
From what we've actually seen and that hasn't been retconned (which isn't that much because, again, we've seen much less of Altmer culture than Dunmer, and what we had in the lore got retconned):
The Psijic Order can manipulate time and accurately predict the future (Summerset and Skyrim). They emphasize more traditional Altmer philosophies. The Psijics use atronachs as workers/slaves, something the more described for the Altmer.
The guy who pioneered and developed Necromancy, to the point that he becomes a god of Necromancy in Daggerfall, Mmanimarco, is an Altmer.
Vanus Galerion, who successfully completes a ritual to end the Planemeld with our help and who creates the Mages Guild as a "Lets take Altmer/Psijic magic and teach magic to everyone!" is an Altmer.
The Altmer actually manage to guard and use their Crystal Tower to power magicka defenses of Summerset against things like the Sea Sloads. The Dunmer didn't, with Red Mountain.
While its implied that gender-changing magic isn't limited to the Altmer, the first time we see it referenced is in Summerset, with an Altmer.
Moreover, the Altmer have always, as a race, had a much greater racial propensity to be mages.
On the whole, while we never really get to explore the Altmer equivalent to the Telvanni Angeles, the College of Sapiarchs (so we really don't know what they are capable of even though they are supposed to be a collection of the best experts of the Altmer on everything magical and otherwise), we do see a lot more magicka used in everyday life. One minor,example I can think of is the Summerset merchant with a flame,atronach pack animal. With the extremely magical library at Illumination Academy and magic being used to examine crime scenes and reveal the final moments of the victims, we see that magic is much more present in the daily lives and work of the average Altmer than it is in the daily life of the average Dunmer.
But ultimately, I dont think its fair to compare the magical advancements of the Altmer and the Dunmer because its a battle that the Altmer are fighting with a major handicap. The Dunmer have the full TES 3 game to explore their very alien culture and Morrowind was the highlight of magic and science in the TES series (steampunk, clockwork, giant robots, teleportation spells, and levitation, anyone?) Future games backed down from that in a big way, so that ESO retconned the 2nd Era Altmer lore and took out a lot of the more complex and interesting stuff hinted at there. Certainly, the devs made it clear they didn't want to meet fans' expectations with Auridon, chose to retain stuff in Summerset, and naturally left out the "more advanced" magic like levitation found in TES 3. Or in other words, the Altmer got short shrift when it came to getting a game that was actually willing to put in the time and effort to flesh them out as the most magically advanced culture on Nirn. Instead, ZOS gave us the theme park version, and that hurts. There's just not enough specific detail in Summerset to argue the Altmer side properly, not because the details aren't necessarily there because there are lots of hints that it should be such as with the College of Sapiarchs, but because ZOS never ever lets us see Summerset in the depth that TES 3 lets us see Vvardenfell.11 -
psychotrip✭✭✭✭✭
✭VaranisArano wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »It depends on what you mean by "more advanced society." The Telvanni are amazing wizards, but as long as they continue to enslave Argonians (or anybody) they remain barbarians. It's not a trivial consideration, even if you'd like it to be.
If you limit the conversation to tech and magical advances only, I don't think anybody we've seen so far can match Sotha Sil. He's also playing with power that will eventually come at a very high cost to his people. He may have murdered a friend to keep that power. Smart and advanced?
I defined what I meant by "advanced" in the first post since I know it can be a very broad topic. I was mostly talking about scientific / magical advancement as opposed to cultural advancement, which is far more subjective.
I understand that and my argument is you cannot seperate the two. The less a society has to focus on menial tasks the more time it has to focus on inventions/science/ life improvements. With that being said you have to decide what is more impressive...a culture that did everything for themselves and were still fairly advanced magically/ scientifically/ etc. Or one that was advanced but due to the subjugation of other cultures.
And yet they didn't do everything themselves. They had slaves for the majority of their history. And the dunmer also live in the most inhospitable place in Tamriel. You seem to only be factoring in the things that make the Altmer seem more impressive, while ignoring the same for the dunmer.
But we're arguing different things. I'm asking who is more advanced, not which society is more impressive.
Rome and Egypt were super advanced for their time too... but would they have been as advanced without millions of slaves? I think the answer is no... same goes for the dumner. The altmer/ goblin relationship is more akin to the first settlers of the Americas to the native Americans.
Again dude, we're talking about two different things. I don't know why you keep focusing on this. I'm asking whose more advanced, not which one is more impressive, moral, or had more advantages. And again, you seem to be brushing aside everything that doesn't fit your narrative while magnifying everything that does.
“The Altmer are proud, conceited, and decadent. Their clothes, manners, arts, and crafts are highly refined, but they are godless and spiritually empty. They content themselves with reliving the aged glories of their martial traditions and their mastery of sorcery and enchantment. Their achievements are admirable, but their culture no longer serves any vital purpose.”
- Nobles of Morrowind
Even the dumner hint around that the altmer are superior in refinements and sorcery. The dumner even look at them as godless because of this reason. The altmer are more advanced and the dumner more barbaric.
Yeah but can you list any examples of what makes the Altmer more advanced? Anything that wasn't later proven to be an "exaggeration"? Those same npcs also described Cyrodiil as a jungle. Most of the Morrowind-era lore has been retconned.
It's part of the lore and so you have to take it as such.... you can't throw it out because it doesn't fit your native or so as you've told me.
Actually I think you misunderstand: I agree with most of what you're saying, even if I think your examples are very biased. It also doesn't really address my question. We can talk all day about whether or not the dunmer had it easier because of their massive slave force, but that's not what this thread is about.
Back on topic though: you've yet to really show me concrete examples of what makes the Altmer more advanced than the Dunmer. If you're going to take Morrowind dialogue as gospel, then Cyrodiil is still a jungle.
It's not.
So, based on the current lore and what we've actually SEEN, what makes the Altmer more magically / scientifically advanced than the Dunmer?
From what we've actually seen and that hasn't been retconned (which isn't that much because, again, we've seen much less of Altmer culture than Dunmer, and what we had in the lore got retconned):
The Psijic Order can manipulate time and accurately predict the future (Summerset and Skyrim). They emphasize more traditional Altmer philosophies. The Psijics use atronachs as workers/slaves, something the more described for the Altmer.
The guy who pioneered and developed Necromancy, to the point that he becomes a god of Necromancy in Daggerfall, Mmanimarco, is an Altmer.
Vanus Galerion, who successfully completes a ritual to end the Planemeld with our help and who creates the Mages Guild as a "Lets take Altmer/Psijic magic and teach magic to everyone!" is an Altmer.
The Altmer actually manage to guard and use their Crystal Tower to power magicka defenses of Summerset against things like the Sea Sloads. The Dunmer didn't, with Red Mountain.
While its implied that gender-changing magic isn't limited to the Altmer, the first time we see it referenced is in Summerset, with an Altmer.
Moreover, the Altmer have always, as a race, had a much greater racial propensity to be mages.
On the whole, while we never really get to explore the Altmer equivalent to the Telvanni Angeles, the College of Sapiarchs (so we really don't know what they are capable of even though they are supposed to be a collection of the best experts of the Altmer on everything magical and otherwise), we do see a lot more magicka used in everyday life. One minor,example I can think of is the Summerset merchant with a flame,atronach pack animal. With the extremely magical library at Illumination Academy and magic being used to examine crime scenes and reveal the final moments of the victims, we see that magic is much more present in the daily lives and work of the average Altmer than it is in the daily life of the average Dunmer.
But ultimately, I dont think its fair to compare the magical advancements of the Altmer and the Dunmer because its a battle that the Altmer are fighting with a major handicap. The Dunmer have the full TES 3 game to explore their very alien culture and Morrowind was the highlight of magic and science in the TES series (steampunk, clockwork, giant robots, teleportation spells, and levitation, anyone?) Future games backed down from that in a big way, so that ESO retconned the 2nd Era Altmer lore and took out a lot of the more complex and interesting stuff hinted at there. Certainly, the devs made it clear they didn't want to meet fans' expectations with Auridon, chose to retain stuff in Summerset, and naturally left out the "more advanced" magic like levitation found in TES 3. Or in other words, the Altmer got short shrift when it came to getting a game that was actually willing to put in the time and effort to flesh them out as the most magically advanced culture on Nirn. Instead, ZOS gave us the theme park version, and that hurts. There's just not enough specific detail in Summerset to argue the Altmer side properly, not because the details aren't necessarily there because there are lots of hints that it should be such as with the College of Sapiarchs, but because ZOS never ever lets us see Summerset in the depth that TES 3 lets us see Vvardenfell.
I definitely see your point. With that in mind, do you think (and this is purely speculation) that future games will explore the Altmer in a deeper way? I feel like we haven't explored any culture as deeply as we have the dunmer, and I'm not sure the writers have the capacity to match that level of depth.No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".
We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.2 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭psychotrip wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »It depends on what you mean by "more advanced society." The Telvanni are amazing wizards, but as long as they continue to enslave Argonians (or anybody) they remain barbarians. It's not a trivial consideration, even if you'd like it to be.
If you limit the conversation to tech and magical advances only, I don't think anybody we've seen so far can match Sotha Sil. He's also playing with power that will eventually come at a very high cost to his people. He may have murdered a friend to keep that power. Smart and advanced?
I defined what I meant by "advanced" in the first post since I know it can be a very broad topic. I was mostly talking about scientific / magical advancement as opposed to cultural advancement, which is far more subjective.
I understand that and my argument is you cannot seperate the two. The less a society has to focus on menial tasks the more time it has to focus on inventions/science/ life improvements. With that being said you have to decide what is more impressive...a culture that did everything for themselves and were still fairly advanced magically/ scientifically/ etc. Or one that was advanced but due to the subjugation of other cultures.
And yet they didn't do everything themselves. They had slaves for the majority of their history. And the dunmer also live in the most inhospitable place in Tamriel. You seem to only be factoring in the things that make the Altmer seem more impressive, while ignoring the same for the dunmer.
But we're arguing different things. I'm asking who is more advanced, not which society is more impressive.
Rome and Egypt were super advanced for their time too... but would they have been as advanced without millions of slaves? I think the answer is no... same goes for the dumner. The altmer/ goblin relationship is more akin to the first settlers of the Americas to the native Americans.
Again dude, we're talking about two different things. I don't know why you keep focusing on this. I'm asking whose more advanced, not which one is more impressive, moral, or had more advantages. And again, you seem to be brushing aside everything that doesn't fit your narrative while magnifying everything that does.
“The Altmer are proud, conceited, and decadent. Their clothes, manners, arts, and crafts are highly refined, but they are godless and spiritually empty. They content themselves with reliving the aged glories of their martial traditions and their mastery of sorcery and enchantment. Their achievements are admirable, but their culture no longer serves any vital purpose.”
- Nobles of Morrowind
Even the dumner hint around that the altmer are superior in refinements and sorcery. The dumner even look at them as godless because of this reason. The altmer are more advanced and the dumner more barbaric.
Yeah but can you list any examples of what makes the Altmer more advanced? Anything that wasn't later proven to be an "exaggeration"? Those same npcs also described Cyrodiil as a jungle. Most of the Morrowind-era lore has been retconned.
It's part of the lore and so you have to take it as such.... you can't throw it out because it doesn't fit your native or so as you've told me.
Actually I think you misunderstand: I agree with most of what you're saying, even if I think your examples are very biased. It also doesn't really address my question. We can talk all day about whether or not the dunmer had it easier because of their massive slave force, but that's not what this thread is about.
Back on topic though: you've yet to really show me concrete examples of what makes the Altmer more advanced than the Dunmer. If you're going to take Morrowind dialogue as gospel, then Cyrodiil is still a jungle.
It's not.
So, based on the current lore and what we've actually SEEN, what makes the Altmer more magically / scientifically advanced than the Dunmer?
From what we've actually seen and that hasn't been retconned (which isn't that much because, again, we've seen much less of Altmer culture than Dunmer, and what we had in the lore got retconned):
The Psijic Order can manipulate time and accurately predict the future (Summerset and Skyrim). They emphasize more traditional Altmer philosophies. The Psijics use atronachs as workers/slaves, something the more described for the Altmer.
The guy who pioneered and developed Necromancy, to the point that he becomes a god of Necromancy in Daggerfall, Mmanimarco, is an Altmer.
Vanus Galerion, who successfully completes a ritual to end the Planemeld with our help and who creates the Mages Guild as a "Lets take Altmer/Psijic magic and teach magic to everyone!" is an Altmer.
The Altmer actually manage to guard and use their Crystal Tower to power magicka defenses of Summerset against things like the Sea Sloads. The Dunmer didn't, with Red Mountain.
While its implied that gender-changing magic isn't limited to the Altmer, the first time we see it referenced is in Summerset, with an Altmer.
Moreover, the Altmer have always, as a race, had a much greater racial propensity to be mages.
On the whole, while we never really get to explore the Altmer equivalent to the Telvanni Angeles, the College of Sapiarchs (so we really don't know what they are capable of even though they are supposed to be a collection of the best experts of the Altmer on everything magical and otherwise), we do see a lot more magicka used in everyday life. One minor,example I can think of is the Summerset merchant with a flame,atronach pack animal. With the extremely magical library at Illumination Academy and magic being used to examine crime scenes and reveal the final moments of the victims, we see that magic is much more present in the daily lives and work of the average Altmer than it is in the daily life of the average Dunmer.
But ultimately, I dont think its fair to compare the magical advancements of the Altmer and the Dunmer because its a battle that the Altmer are fighting with a major handicap. The Dunmer have the full TES 3 game to explore their very alien culture and Morrowind was the highlight of magic and science in the TES series (steampunk, clockwork, giant robots, teleportation spells, and levitation, anyone?) Future games backed down from that in a big way, so that ESO retconned the 2nd Era Altmer lore and took out a lot of the more complex and interesting stuff hinted at there. Certainly, the devs made it clear they didn't want to meet fans' expectations with Auridon, chose to retain stuff in Summerset, and naturally left out the "more advanced" magic like levitation found in TES 3. Or in other words, the Altmer got short shrift when it came to getting a game that was actually willing to put in the time and effort to flesh them out as the most magically advanced culture on Nirn. Instead, ZOS gave us the theme park version, and that hurts. There's just not enough specific detail in Summerset to argue the Altmer side properly, not because the details aren't necessarily there because there are lots of hints that it should be such as with the College of Sapiarchs, but because ZOS never ever lets us see Summerset in the depth that TES 3 lets us see Vvardenfell.
I definitely see your point. With that in mind, do you think (and this is purely speculation) that future games will explore the Altmer in a deeper way? I feel like we haven't explored any culture as deeply as we have the dunmer, and I'm not sure the writers have the capacity to match that level of depth.
I hope we get some more. The Thalmor were heavily built up in Skyrim, but we learned rather little about conditions back in Summerset. If the new TES VI happens soon after Skyrim, I really hope we'll find out more.2 -
BigBadVolk✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »It depends on what you mean by "more advanced society." The Telvanni are amazing wizards, but as long as they continue to enslave Argonians (or anybody) they remain barbarians. It's not a trivial consideration, even if you'd like it to be.
If you limit the conversation to tech and magical advances only, I don't think anybody we've seen so far can match Sotha Sil. He's also playing with power that will eventually come at a very high cost to his people. He may have murdered a friend to keep that power. Smart and advanced?
I defined what I meant by "advanced" in the first post since I know it can be a very broad topic. I was mostly talking about scientific / magical advancement as opposed to cultural advancement, which is far more subjective.
I understand that and my argument is you cannot seperate the two. The less a society has to focus on menial tasks the more time it has to focus on inventions/science/ life improvements. With that being said you have to decide what is more impressive...a culture that did everything for themselves and were still fairly advanced magically/ scientifically/ etc. Or one that was advanced but due to the subjugation of other cultures.
And yet they didn't do everything themselves. They had slaves for the majority of their history. And the dunmer also live in the most inhospitable place in Tamriel. You seem to only be factoring in the things that make the Altmer seem more impressive, while ignoring the same for the dunmer.
But we're arguing different things. I'm asking who is more advanced, not which society is more impressive.
Rome and Egypt were super advanced for their time too... but would they have been as advanced without millions of slaves? I think the answer is no... same goes for the dumner. The altmer/ goblin relationship is more akin to the first settlers of the Americas to the native Americans.
Again dude, we're talking about two different things. I don't know why you keep focusing on this. I'm asking whose more advanced, not which one is more impressive, moral, or had more advantages. And again, you seem to be brushing aside everything that doesn't fit your narrative while magnifying everything that does.
“The Altmer are proud, conceited, and decadent. Their clothes, manners, arts, and crafts are highly refined, but they are godless and spiritually empty. They content themselves with reliving the aged glories of their martial traditions and their mastery of sorcery and enchantment. Their achievements are admirable, but their culture no longer serves any vital purpose.”
- Nobles of Morrowind
Even the dumner hint around that the altmer are superior in refinements and sorcery. The dumner even look at them as godless because of this reason. The altmer are more advanced and the dumner more barbaric.
Yeah but can you list any examples of what makes the Altmer more advanced? Anything that wasn't later proven to be an "exaggeration"? Those same npcs also described Cyrodiil as a jungle. Most of the Morrowind-era lore has been retconned.
It's part of the lore and so you have to take it as such.... you can't throw it out because it doesn't fit your native or so as you've told me.
Actually I think you misunderstand: I agree with most of what you're saying, even if I think your examples are very biased. It also doesn't really address my question. We can talk all day about whether or not the dunmer had it easier because of their massive slave force, but that's not what this thread is about.
Back on topic though: you've yet to really show me concrete examples of what makes the Altmer more advanced than the Dunmer. If you're going to take Morrowind dialogue as gospel, then Cyrodiil is still a jungle.
It's not.
So, based on the current lore and what we've actually SEEN, what makes the Altmer more magically / scientifically advanced than the Dunmer?
From what we've actually seen and that hasn't been retconned (which isn't that much because, again, we've seen much less of Altmer culture than Dunmer, and what we had in the lore got retconned):
The Psijic Order can manipulate time and accurately predict the future (Summerset and Skyrim). They emphasize more traditional Altmer philosophies. The Psijics use atronachs as workers/slaves, something the more described for the Altmer.
The guy who pioneered and developed Necromancy, to the point that he becomes a god of Necromancy in Daggerfall, Mmanimarco, is an Altmer.
Vanus Galerion, who successfully completes a ritual to end the Planemeld with our help and who creates the Mages Guild as a "Lets take Altmer/Psijic magic and teach magic to everyone!" is an Altmer.
The Altmer actually manage to guard and use their Crystal Tower to power magicka defenses of Summerset against things like the Sea Sloads. The Dunmer didn't, with Red Mountain.
While its implied that gender-changing magic isn't limited to the Altmer, the first time we see it referenced is in Summerset, with an Altmer.
Moreover, the Altmer have always, as a race, had a much greater racial propensity to be mages.
On the whole, while we never really get to explore the Altmer equivalent to the Telvanni Angeles, the College of Sapiarchs (so we really don't know what they are capable of even though they are supposed to be a collection of the best experts of the Altmer on everything magical and otherwise), we do see a lot more magicka used in everyday life. One minor,example I can think of is the Summerset merchant with a flame,atronach pack animal. With the extremely magical library at Illumination Academy and magic being used to examine crime scenes and reveal the final moments of the victims, we see that magic is much more present in the daily lives and work of the average Altmer than it is in the daily life of the average Dunmer.
But ultimately, I dont think its fair to compare the magical advancements of the Altmer and the Dunmer because its a battle that the Altmer are fighting with a major handicap. The Dunmer have the full TES 3 game to explore their very alien culture and Morrowind was the highlight of magic and science in the TES series (steampunk, clockwork, giant robots, teleportation spells, and levitation, anyone?) Future games backed down from that in a big way, so that ESO retconned the 2nd Era Altmer lore and took out a lot of the more complex and interesting stuff hinted at there. Certainly, the devs made it clear they didn't want to meet fans' expectations with Auridon, chose to retain stuff in Summerset, and naturally left out the "more advanced" magic like levitation found in TES 3. Or in other words, the Altmer got short shrift when it came to getting a game that was actually willing to put in the time and effort to flesh them out as the most magically advanced culture on Nirn. Instead, ZOS gave us the theme park version, and that hurts. There's just not enough specific detail in Summerset to argue the Altmer side properly, not because the details aren't necessarily there because there are lots of hints that it should be such as with the College of Sapiarchs, but because ZOS never ever lets us see Summerset in the depth that TES 3 lets us see Vvardenfell.
I definitely see your point. With that in mind, do you think (and this is purely speculation) that future games will explore the Altmer in a deeper way? I feel like we haven't explored any culture as deeply as we have the dunmer, and I'm not sure the writers have the capacity to match that level of depth.
I hope we get some more. The Thalmor were heavily built up in Skyrim, but we learned rather little about conditions back in Summerset. If the new TES VI happens soon after Skyrim, I really hope we'll find out more.
In a main game one day probably, but prob not as deeply as with TES 3, except if Kirkbride comes back for one more round"The ass is similar to the opinion: Everyone has it, but no one cares about the others!"
I'm 120 years old2 -
psychotrip✭✭✭✭✭
✭BigBadVolk wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »It depends on what you mean by "more advanced society." The Telvanni are amazing wizards, but as long as they continue to enslave Argonians (or anybody) they remain barbarians. It's not a trivial consideration, even if you'd like it to be.
If you limit the conversation to tech and magical advances only, I don't think anybody we've seen so far can match Sotha Sil. He's also playing with power that will eventually come at a very high cost to his people. He may have murdered a friend to keep that power. Smart and advanced?
I defined what I meant by "advanced" in the first post since I know it can be a very broad topic. I was mostly talking about scientific / magical advancement as opposed to cultural advancement, which is far more subjective.
I understand that and my argument is you cannot seperate the two. The less a society has to focus on menial tasks the more time it has to focus on inventions/science/ life improvements. With that being said you have to decide what is more impressive...a culture that did everything for themselves and were still fairly advanced magically/ scientifically/ etc. Or one that was advanced but due to the subjugation of other cultures.
And yet they didn't do everything themselves. They had slaves for the majority of their history. And the dunmer also live in the most inhospitable place in Tamriel. You seem to only be factoring in the things that make the Altmer seem more impressive, while ignoring the same for the dunmer.
But we're arguing different things. I'm asking who is more advanced, not which society is more impressive.
Rome and Egypt were super advanced for their time too... but would they have been as advanced without millions of slaves? I think the answer is no... same goes for the dumner. The altmer/ goblin relationship is more akin to the first settlers of the Americas to the native Americans.
Again dude, we're talking about two different things. I don't know why you keep focusing on this. I'm asking whose more advanced, not which one is more impressive, moral, or had more advantages. And again, you seem to be brushing aside everything that doesn't fit your narrative while magnifying everything that does.
“The Altmer are proud, conceited, and decadent. Their clothes, manners, arts, and crafts are highly refined, but they are godless and spiritually empty. They content themselves with reliving the aged glories of their martial traditions and their mastery of sorcery and enchantment. Their achievements are admirable, but their culture no longer serves any vital purpose.”
- Nobles of Morrowind
Even the dumner hint around that the altmer are superior in refinements and sorcery. The dumner even look at them as godless because of this reason. The altmer are more advanced and the dumner more barbaric.
Yeah but can you list any examples of what makes the Altmer more advanced? Anything that wasn't later proven to be an "exaggeration"? Those same npcs also described Cyrodiil as a jungle. Most of the Morrowind-era lore has been retconned.
It's part of the lore and so you have to take it as such.... you can't throw it out because it doesn't fit your native or so as you've told me.
Actually I think you misunderstand: I agree with most of what you're saying, even if I think your examples are very biased. It also doesn't really address my question. We can talk all day about whether or not the dunmer had it easier because of their massive slave force, but that's not what this thread is about.
Back on topic though: you've yet to really show me concrete examples of what makes the Altmer more advanced than the Dunmer. If you're going to take Morrowind dialogue as gospel, then Cyrodiil is still a jungle.
It's not.
So, based on the current lore and what we've actually SEEN, what makes the Altmer more magically / scientifically advanced than the Dunmer?
From what we've actually seen and that hasn't been retconned (which isn't that much because, again, we've seen much less of Altmer culture than Dunmer, and what we had in the lore got retconned):
The Psijic Order can manipulate time and accurately predict the future (Summerset and Skyrim). They emphasize more traditional Altmer philosophies. The Psijics use atronachs as workers/slaves, something the more described for the Altmer.
The guy who pioneered and developed Necromancy, to the point that he becomes a god of Necromancy in Daggerfall, Mmanimarco, is an Altmer.
Vanus Galerion, who successfully completes a ritual to end the Planemeld with our help and who creates the Mages Guild as a "Lets take Altmer/Psijic magic and teach magic to everyone!" is an Altmer.
The Altmer actually manage to guard and use their Crystal Tower to power magicka defenses of Summerset against things like the Sea Sloads. The Dunmer didn't, with Red Mountain.
While its implied that gender-changing magic isn't limited to the Altmer, the first time we see it referenced is in Summerset, with an Altmer.
Moreover, the Altmer have always, as a race, had a much greater racial propensity to be mages.
On the whole, while we never really get to explore the Altmer equivalent to the Telvanni Angeles, the College of Sapiarchs (so we really don't know what they are capable of even though they are supposed to be a collection of the best experts of the Altmer on everything magical and otherwise), we do see a lot more magicka used in everyday life. One minor,example I can think of is the Summerset merchant with a flame,atronach pack animal. With the extremely magical library at Illumination Academy and magic being used to examine crime scenes and reveal the final moments of the victims, we see that magic is much more present in the daily lives and work of the average Altmer than it is in the daily life of the average Dunmer.
But ultimately, I dont think its fair to compare the magical advancements of the Altmer and the Dunmer because its a battle that the Altmer are fighting with a major handicap. The Dunmer have the full TES 3 game to explore their very alien culture and Morrowind was the highlight of magic and science in the TES series (steampunk, clockwork, giant robots, teleportation spells, and levitation, anyone?) Future games backed down from that in a big way, so that ESO retconned the 2nd Era Altmer lore and took out a lot of the more complex and interesting stuff hinted at there. Certainly, the devs made it clear they didn't want to meet fans' expectations with Auridon, chose to retain stuff in Summerset, and naturally left out the "more advanced" magic like levitation found in TES 3. Or in other words, the Altmer got short shrift when it came to getting a game that was actually willing to put in the time and effort to flesh them out as the most magically advanced culture on Nirn. Instead, ZOS gave us the theme park version, and that hurts. There's just not enough specific detail in Summerset to argue the Altmer side properly, not because the details aren't necessarily there because there are lots of hints that it should be such as with the College of Sapiarchs, but because ZOS never ever lets us see Summerset in the depth that TES 3 lets us see Vvardenfell.
I definitely see your point. With that in mind, do you think (and this is purely speculation) that future games will explore the Altmer in a deeper way? I feel like we haven't explored any culture as deeply as we have the dunmer, and I'm not sure the writers have the capacity to match that level of depth.
I hope we get some more. The Thalmor were heavily built up in Skyrim, but we learned rather little about conditions back in Summerset. If the new TES VI happens soon after Skyrim, I really hope we'll find out more.
In a main game one day probably, but prob not as deeply as with TES 3, except if Kirkbride comes back for one more round
I mean he offered, but Zenimax rejected him
No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".
We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭BigBadVolk wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »It depends on what you mean by "more advanced society." The Telvanni are amazing wizards, but as long as they continue to enslave Argonians (or anybody) they remain barbarians. It's not a trivial consideration, even if you'd like it to be.
If you limit the conversation to tech and magical advances only, I don't think anybody we've seen so far can match Sotha Sil. He's also playing with power that will eventually come at a very high cost to his people. He may have murdered a friend to keep that power. Smart and advanced?
I defined what I meant by "advanced" in the first post since I know it can be a very broad topic. I was mostly talking about scientific / magical advancement as opposed to cultural advancement, which is far more subjective.
I understand that and my argument is you cannot seperate the two. The less a society has to focus on menial tasks the more time it has to focus on inventions/science/ life improvements. With that being said you have to decide what is more impressive...a culture that did everything for themselves and were still fairly advanced magically/ scientifically/ etc. Or one that was advanced but due to the subjugation of other cultures.
And yet they didn't do everything themselves. They had slaves for the majority of their history. And the dunmer also live in the most inhospitable place in Tamriel. You seem to only be factoring in the things that make the Altmer seem more impressive, while ignoring the same for the dunmer.
But we're arguing different things. I'm asking who is more advanced, not which society is more impressive.
Rome and Egypt were super advanced for their time too... but would they have been as advanced without millions of slaves? I think the answer is no... same goes for the dumner. The altmer/ goblin relationship is more akin to the first settlers of the Americas to the native Americans.
Again dude, we're talking about two different things. I don't know why you keep focusing on this. I'm asking whose more advanced, not which one is more impressive, moral, or had more advantages. And again, you seem to be brushing aside everything that doesn't fit your narrative while magnifying everything that does.
“The Altmer are proud, conceited, and decadent. Their clothes, manners, arts, and crafts are highly refined, but they are godless and spiritually empty. They content themselves with reliving the aged glories of their martial traditions and their mastery of sorcery and enchantment. Their achievements are admirable, but their culture no longer serves any vital purpose.”
- Nobles of Morrowind
Even the dumner hint around that the altmer are superior in refinements and sorcery. The dumner even look at them as godless because of this reason. The altmer are more advanced and the dumner more barbaric.
Yeah but can you list any examples of what makes the Altmer more advanced? Anything that wasn't later proven to be an "exaggeration"? Those same npcs also described Cyrodiil as a jungle. Most of the Morrowind-era lore has been retconned.
It's part of the lore and so you have to take it as such.... you can't throw it out because it doesn't fit your native or so as you've told me.
Actually I think you misunderstand: I agree with most of what you're saying, even if I think your examples are very biased. It also doesn't really address my question. We can talk all day about whether or not the dunmer had it easier because of their massive slave force, but that's not what this thread is about.
Back on topic though: you've yet to really show me concrete examples of what makes the Altmer more advanced than the Dunmer. If you're going to take Morrowind dialogue as gospel, then Cyrodiil is still a jungle.
It's not.
So, based on the current lore and what we've actually SEEN, what makes the Altmer more magically / scientifically advanced than the Dunmer?
From what we've actually seen and that hasn't been retconned (which isn't that much because, again, we've seen much less of Altmer culture than Dunmer, and what we had in the lore got retconned):
The Psijic Order can manipulate time and accurately predict the future (Summerset and Skyrim). They emphasize more traditional Altmer philosophies. The Psijics use atronachs as workers/slaves, something the more described for the Altmer.
The guy who pioneered and developed Necromancy, to the point that he becomes a god of Necromancy in Daggerfall, Mmanimarco, is an Altmer.
Vanus Galerion, who successfully completes a ritual to end the Planemeld with our help and who creates the Mages Guild as a "Lets take Altmer/Psijic magic and teach magic to everyone!" is an Altmer.
The Altmer actually manage to guard and use their Crystal Tower to power magicka defenses of Summerset against things like the Sea Sloads. The Dunmer didn't, with Red Mountain.
While its implied that gender-changing magic isn't limited to the Altmer, the first time we see it referenced is in Summerset, with an Altmer.
Moreover, the Altmer have always, as a race, had a much greater racial propensity to be mages.
On the whole, while we never really get to explore the Altmer equivalent to the Telvanni Angeles, the College of Sapiarchs (so we really don't know what they are capable of even though they are supposed to be a collection of the best experts of the Altmer on everything magical and otherwise), we do see a lot more magicka used in everyday life. One minor,example I can think of is the Summerset merchant with a flame,atronach pack animal. With the extremely magical library at Illumination Academy and magic being used to examine crime scenes and reveal the final moments of the victims, we see that magic is much more present in the daily lives and work of the average Altmer than it is in the daily life of the average Dunmer.
But ultimately, I dont think its fair to compare the magical advancements of the Altmer and the Dunmer because its a battle that the Altmer are fighting with a major handicap. The Dunmer have the full TES 3 game to explore their very alien culture and Morrowind was the highlight of magic and science in the TES series (steampunk, clockwork, giant robots, teleportation spells, and levitation, anyone?) Future games backed down from that in a big way, so that ESO retconned the 2nd Era Altmer lore and took out a lot of the more complex and interesting stuff hinted at there. Certainly, the devs made it clear they didn't want to meet fans' expectations with Auridon, chose to retain stuff in Summerset, and naturally left out the "more advanced" magic like levitation found in TES 3. Or in other words, the Altmer got short shrift when it came to getting a game that was actually willing to put in the time and effort to flesh them out as the most magically advanced culture on Nirn. Instead, ZOS gave us the theme park version, and that hurts. There's just not enough specific detail in Summerset to argue the Altmer side properly, not because the details aren't necessarily there because there are lots of hints that it should be such as with the College of Sapiarchs, but because ZOS never ever lets us see Summerset in the depth that TES 3 lets us see Vvardenfell.
I definitely see your point. With that in mind, do you think (and this is purely speculation) that future games will explore the Altmer in a deeper way? I feel like we haven't explored any culture as deeply as we have the dunmer, and I'm not sure the writers have the capacity to match that level of depth.
I hope we get some more. The Thalmor were heavily built up in Skyrim, but we learned rather little about conditions back in Summerset. If the new TES VI happens soon after Skyrim, I really hope we'll find out more.
In a main game one day probably, but prob not as deeply as with TES 3, except if Kirkbride comes back for one more round
Yeah, TES 3 Morrowind was kind of unique in that it fully immersed the player into a completely strange and alien land, where learning the history, customs, and traditions of the Dunmer and becoming one of their cultural heroes was the backbone of the entire plot.
Oblivion going back to white-bread medieval Europe was a disappointment in that regard and while Skyrim did more to introduce us to Nordic culture, the Nords aren't anywhere as alien to the player as Morrowind was. Unfortunately, ESO's devs gave Summerset the Oblivion/Skyrim treatment instead of the TES 3 Morrowind treatment many of the fans were hoping for and that was indicated in the existing lore prior to ESO's retcons.
While playing the Summerset Chapter, I always felt like the devs were trying to copy many of the things that worked so well for the Dunmer in TES 3, like the slang terms for outlanders and the rigid hierarchical roles that these outlanders are shown and then sort of allowed to enter/help, and the way most NPCs don't like you very much. But because the Summerset Chapter isn't a full single-player game, it can't handle any of it with the depth of TES 3 Morrowind, so it often felt like a cheap knock-off or "Morrowind Lite" to me.
For me, the best parts of Summerset was when it was dealing with the stuff that was unique to the Altmer, like their criminal justice system, their take on art and Alaxon, the way their family structure is all screwed up by this pursuit of perfection and geneaology, and the place of outcasts in their society as people reject praxis or are rejected by society for imperfection and failure. That all was very interesting and it was something that really set them apart from the other cultures we've met. We got the broad strokes of that in the Summerset Chapter, and I would have liked more of it.5 -
ArchMikem✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Altmer by far.
Dunmer are too busy revering their False Gods to put much purpose behind anything else.CP2,000 Master Explorer - AvA One Star General - Console Peasant - The Clan
Quest Objective: OMG Go Talk To That Kitty!1 -
psychotrip✭✭✭✭✭
✭Altmer by far.
Dunmer are too busy revering their False Gods to put much purpose behind anything else.
Can you give any examples of altmer magical / technological superiority?No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".
We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.0 -
Of course Altmer.
Even by ESO standards, the Altmer culture is sooo more advanced
look at the cities! the structures!
and then look at the cities on vvardenfell.
even vivec, which is the most beautiful city of the Dunmer, cant compare with Alinor.
Oh, and some dunmer live in tents.ALL HAIL THE IMPERIAL LEGION
LONG LIVE THE EMPIREVeteran\Pact\Imperial\Dragonknight- Tullius Gollus
Veteran\Dominion\Altmer\Sorcerer- Ancarion Altairinil
Normal\Pact\Argonian\Nightblade- Luraxith
Normal\Pact\Nord\Nightblade- Loria Coldheart
Normal\Pact\Dunmer\Warden- Renthis Redoril Telvanni
Normal\Dominion\Altmer\Templar- Lithodor
Normal\Dominion\Bosmer\Warden- Lywen Arrow-Catcher
Normal\Pact\Dunmer\Templar- Fervyn Indoril1 -
Korah_Eaglecry✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭psychotrip wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »You have to take in to account that the altmer accomplished what they did through racial purity and strict standard enforcement.... the dumner did it off the backs of others (slaves). No comparison to really be had there.
The Altmer had slaves until the second era I believe, and use goblins as slave labor as well (though it think this was retconned?)
And slave labor =/= magical advancement, complex engineering, or a nuanced understanding of neurology, so I don't know what you're getting at here. All you've proven is that the dunmer have a work force to execute their ideas. Having slaves doesn't make you better at magic or science.
They still use goblins, you can find a cave full of escaped goblin slaves on Auridon.Penniless Sellsword CompanyCaptain Paramount - Jorrhaq VhentKorith Eaglecry * Enrerion Aedihle * Laerinel Rhaev * Caius Berilius * Seylina Ithvala * H'Vak the GrimjawlTenarei Rhaev * Dazsh Ro Khar * Yynril Rothvani * Bathes-In-Coin * Anaelle Faerniil * Azjani Ma'LesAban Shahid Bakr * Kheshna gra-Gharbuk * Gallisten Bondurant * Etain Maquier * Atsu Kalame * Faulpia SeverinusWhat is better, to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort? - Paarthurnax0 -
Nightfall12✭✭✭✭✭well If they are so advanced....why they build their whole civilization around a giant Volcano? When they could have just you know conquered the next door neighbors?Ummm stuff… about stuff…or something.0 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Altmer.
Dunmer basically live in mud huts. Altmer architecture is refined and classy.
Altmer made the moons return to the sky while the Dunmer couldn't even keep a small rock from falling on them.
Altmer are gods compared to the Dunmer. Dunmer can barely be distinguished from beastfolk.Edited by MLGProPlayer on August 15, 2018 6:03AM1 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Nightfall12 wrote: »well If they are so advanced....why they build their whole civilization around a giant Volcano? When they could have just you know conquered the next door neighbors?
Their next door neighbors are:
Skyrim. They've been feuding and fighting, invading and counterinvading with the Nords since the First Era back when they were Chimer.
Black Marsh. Well, that's not exactly the most habitable place, but they've made a pretty good go of conquering the natives
Cyrodiil. Well, they are currently in the process of attempting to conquer them now that Cyrodiil doesn't have a unifying emperor.1 -
psychotrip✭✭✭✭✭
✭josephus41198 wrote: »Of course Altmer.
Even by ESO standards, the Altmer culture is sooo more advanced
look at the cities! the structures!
and then look at the cities on vvardenfell.
even vivec, which is the most beautiful city of the Dunmer, cant compare with Alinor.
Oh, and some dunmer live in tents.
Did you read the first post, where I explained just how much of an engineering feat vivec actually is? Beauty is aside the point. The irrigation and ventilation systems alone are astounding, and the materials used to make the city appear to be some sort of moldable concrete as opposed to stone bricks stacked on top of each other.No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".
We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.2 -
psychotrip✭✭✭✭✭
✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »Altmer.
Dunmer basically live in mud huts. Altmer architecture is refined and classy.
Altmer made the moons return to the sky while the Dunmer couldn't even keep a small rock from falling on them.
Altmer are gods compared to the Dunmer. Dunmer can barely be distinguished from beastfolk.
I can’t tell if this is written “in character” or not, since none of this actually proves anything. We have no clue what ended the void nights, for example.
Can you list some examples of altmer engineering, architectural feats, or “scientific” / magical achievements? Any examples of how they integrate magic into their society? I want to agree that Altmer are more advanced, but I haven’t really seen the evidenceEdited by psychotrip on August 15, 2018 3:50PMNo one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".
We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.0 -
dodgehopper_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭While the Altmer and the Dunmer both show excessive levels of hubris there is I think a difference that can't be glossed over. The Dunmer are willing to do anything for success. Dunmer cruelty knows no bounds and their very ethos and moral framework are driven by two horrific daedra: Mephala and Boethiah. The Altmer on the other hand as cruel as they can be don't have the same kind of need for this and are driven by ideas of harmony, beauty, and eternity. This is not to say the Dunmer do not have a lot of beauty in their architecture and artwork. I would say that the Dunmer are one of the most beautiful cultures in Tamriel artistically, and this is about all they bring to the rest of Tamriel. Nords have been in a feud with them because they sit on the heart of their god/ancestor as well as have been been raided by the Dunmer for use as slaves. Likewise the Argonians and Khajiit have faced this slavedriving of the Dunmer. The Altmer at the very least recognize that the 'lesser races' are capable of greatness, beauty and intellect and they are not as exploitative. (We are speaking in broad strokes about the cultures of course).
I really think it is hard to say which is most advanced. If you compare engineering they both seem to understand things like aqueducts and sewers. They both can build impressively tall and large structures. On the whole I would say the Altmer tend to be more magically knowledgeable and magic seems to be woven in their daily lives to a greater levels. Sapiarchs would be pretty comparable to a Telvanni archmagister if not more so. Divayth Fyr is a huge exception to normal Dunmer. In short I would say it is really difficult to compare them. Building houses out of magical trees or magical mushrooms seems more a mystical or esthetic choice by the Bosmer and Dunmer respectively. I believe the Altmer are more likely interested in the older interests of their forebears: the magic of light, the source of all magic, aetherius, Magnus. I would suggest that Dunmer and Altmer are simply interested in different things and have a very different world view which shapes the kinds of technology they will utilize.US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
US/AD - Arondonimo - Vet Altmer Sorcerer | US/AD - Azumarax - Vet Dunmer Dragon Knight
US/AD - Barkan al-Sheharesh - Vet Redguard Dragon Knight | US/AD - Aelus Vortavoriil - Vet Altmer Templar
US/AD - Shirari Qa'Dar - Vet Khajiit Nightblade | US/AD - Ndvari Mzunchvolenthumz - Vet Bosmer Nightblade
US/EP - Yngmar - Vet Nord Dragon Knight | US/EP - Reloth Ur Fyr - Vet Dunmer Sorcerer
US/DC - Muiredeach - Vet Breton Sorcerer | US/DC - Nachtrabe - Vet Orc Nightblade
EU/DC - Dragol gro-Unglak - Vet Orc Dragon Knight | EU/DC - Targan al-Barkan - Vet Redguard Templar
EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
<And plenty more>4 -
psychotrip✭✭✭✭✭
✭dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »While the Altmer and the Dunmer both show excessive levels of hubris there is I think a difference that can't be glossed over. The Dunmer are willing to do anything for success. Dunmer cruelty knows no bounds and their very ethos and moral framework are driven by two horrific daedra: Mephala and Boethiah. The Altmer on the other hand as cruel as they can be don't have the same kind of need for this and are driven by ideas of harmony, beauty, and eternity. This is not to say the Dunmer do not have a lot of beauty in their architecture and artwork. I would say that the Dunmer are one of the most beautiful cultures in Tamriel artistically, and this is about all they bring to the rest of Tamriel. Nords have been in a feud with them because they sit on the heart of their god/ancestor as well as have been been raided by the Dunmer for use as slaves. Likewise the Argonians and Khajiit have faced this slavedriving of the Dunmer. The Altmer at the very least recognize that the 'lesser races' are capable of greatness, beauty and intellect and they are not as exploitative. (We are speaking in broad strokes about the cultures of course).
I really think it is hard to say which is most advanced. If you compare engineering they both seem to understand things like aqueducts and sewers. They both can build impressively tall and large structures. On the whole I would say the Altmer tend to be more magically knowledgeable and magic seems to be woven in their daily lives to a greater levels. Sapiarchs would be pretty comparable to a Telvanni archmagister if not more so. Divayth Fyr is a huge exception to normal Dunmer. In short I would say it is really difficult to compare them. Building houses out of magical trees or magical mushrooms seems more a mystical or esthetic choice by the Bosmer and Dunmer respectively. I believe the Altmer are more likely interested in the older interests of their forebears: the magic of light, the source of all magic, aetherius, Magnus. I would suggest that Dunmer and Altmer are simply interested in different things and have a very different world view which shapes the kinds of technology they will utilize.
This is a great post. I will say two things:
I think you’re showing the nord vs dunmer feud in a bit of a lopsided way. The dunmer have been exploiting beast folk for eons, and that can’t be justified. But I think the nords definitely have most of the blame for their feuds with the dunmer. The nords conquered the entirety of modern day Morrowind. In fact, portions of eastern skyrim were originally dunmer land. The dunmer never really enslaved nords either, at least no more than other non-beastfolk.
But aside from that, I think you bring up a lot of good points. Do you have any examples of how altmer use magic in their daily lives?No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".
We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.1 -
dodgehopper_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭psychotrip wrote: »dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »While the Altmer and the Dunmer both show excessive levels of hubris there is I think a difference that can't be glossed over. The Dunmer are willing to do anything for success. Dunmer cruelty knows no bounds and their very ethos and moral framework are driven by two horrific daedra: Mephala and Boethiah. The Altmer on the other hand as cruel as they can be don't have the same kind of need for this and are driven by ideas of harmony, beauty, and eternity. This is not to say the Dunmer do not have a lot of beauty in their architecture and artwork. I would say that the Dunmer are one of the most beautiful cultures in Tamriel artistically, and this is about all they bring to the rest of Tamriel. Nords have been in a feud with them because they sit on the heart of their god/ancestor as well as have been been raided by the Dunmer for use as slaves. Likewise the Argonians and Khajiit have faced this slavedriving of the Dunmer. The Altmer at the very least recognize that the 'lesser races' are capable of greatness, beauty and intellect and they are not as exploitative. (We are speaking in broad strokes about the cultures of course).
I really think it is hard to say which is most advanced. If you compare engineering they both seem to understand things like aqueducts and sewers. They both can build impressively tall and large structures. On the whole I would say the Altmer tend to be more magically knowledgeable and magic seems to be woven in their daily lives to a greater levels. Sapiarchs would be pretty comparable to a Telvanni archmagister if not more so. Divayth Fyr is a huge exception to normal Dunmer. In short I would say it is really difficult to compare them. Building houses out of magical trees or magical mushrooms seems more a mystical or esthetic choice by the Bosmer and Dunmer respectively. I believe the Altmer are more likely interested in the older interests of their forebears: the magic of light, the source of all magic, aetherius, Magnus. I would suggest that Dunmer and Altmer are simply interested in different things and have a very different world view which shapes the kinds of technology they will utilize.
This is a great post. I will say two things:
I think you’re showing the nord vs dunmer feud in a bit of a lopsided way. The dunmer have been exploiting beast folk for eons, and that can’t be justified. But I think the nords definitely have most of the blame for their feuds with the dunmer. The nords conquered the entirety of modern day Morrowind. In fact, portions of eastern skyrim were originally dunmer land. The dunmer never really enslaved nords either, at least no more than other non-beastfolk.
But aside from that, I think you bring up a lot of good points. Do you have any examples of how altmer use magic in their daily lives?
On the matter of the Nord v. Dunmer feud it is lopsided though I do think it is accurate. Nords come from old Atmora. Atmora was beginning to get too cold even for a race with near immunity to cold and heavy resistance to thunder. When they began looking for other safer places to live they landed in what is now called Saarthal. These Atmorans built a colony and traded and were friendly with the local Falmer (before they were twisted and poisoned). The Atmorans were murdered and betrayed and escaped to Atmora to gain revenge against the Falmer for the murder of their families and sacking of their town. This is when Ysgramor and his companions arrived and it was the beginning of the end for the Falmer. The territories abut one another but I'm not certain that the Chimer and their Velothi wanderings had even completed at this point. It is a point of fact that war between Nords and Dunmer goes back a long time, as far back as the battle of Red Mountain where Nerevar and Dumac were.
My view of the Altmer is in the seeming fact that in every series of the game even their warriors twist a little magic into things. If they are a chef they like a magical fire. If they are a painter they make alchemical paint. I think its just part of who they are really, just like Redguards, Nords and Orcs make badass warriors. I believe this is in part due to the pressure of the culture and also in part due to their nature.Edited by dodgehopper_ESO on August 15, 2018 4:13PMUS/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
US/AD - Arondonimo - Vet Altmer Sorcerer | US/AD - Azumarax - Vet Dunmer Dragon Knight
US/AD - Barkan al-Sheharesh - Vet Redguard Dragon Knight | US/AD - Aelus Vortavoriil - Vet Altmer Templar
US/AD - Shirari Qa'Dar - Vet Khajiit Nightblade | US/AD - Ndvari Mzunchvolenthumz - Vet Bosmer Nightblade
US/EP - Yngmar - Vet Nord Dragon Knight | US/EP - Reloth Ur Fyr - Vet Dunmer Sorcerer
US/DC - Muiredeach - Vet Breton Sorcerer | US/DC - Nachtrabe - Vet Orc Nightblade
EU/DC - Dragol gro-Unglak - Vet Orc Dragon Knight | EU/DC - Targan al-Barkan - Vet Redguard Templar
EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
<And plenty more>0 -
psychotrip✭✭✭✭✭
✭dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »While the Altmer and the Dunmer both show excessive levels of hubris there is I think a difference that can't be glossed over. The Dunmer are willing to do anything for success. Dunmer cruelty knows no bounds and their very ethos and moral framework are driven by two horrific daedra: Mephala and Boethiah. The Altmer on the other hand as cruel as they can be don't have the same kind of need for this and are driven by ideas of harmony, beauty, and eternity. This is not to say the Dunmer do not have a lot of beauty in their architecture and artwork. I would say that the Dunmer are one of the most beautiful cultures in Tamriel artistically, and this is about all they bring to the rest of Tamriel. Nords have been in a feud with them because they sit on the heart of their god/ancestor as well as have been been raided by the Dunmer for use as slaves. Likewise the Argonians and Khajiit have faced this slavedriving of the Dunmer. The Altmer at the very least recognize that the 'lesser races' are capable of greatness, beauty and intellect and they are not as exploitative. (We are speaking in broad strokes about the cultures of course).
I really think it is hard to say which is most advanced. If you compare engineering they both seem to understand things like aqueducts and sewers. They both can build impressively tall and large structures. On the whole I would say the Altmer tend to be more magically knowledgeable and magic seems to be woven in their daily lives to a greater levels. Sapiarchs would be pretty comparable to a Telvanni archmagister if not more so. Divayth Fyr is a huge exception to normal Dunmer. In short I would say it is really difficult to compare them. Building houses out of magical trees or magical mushrooms seems more a mystical or esthetic choice by the Bosmer and Dunmer respectively. I believe the Altmer are more likely interested in the older interests of their forebears: the magic of light, the source of all magic, aetherius, Magnus. I would suggest that Dunmer and Altmer are simply interested in different things and have a very different world view which shapes the kinds of technology they will utilize.
This is a great post. I will say two things:
I think you’re showing the nord vs dunmer feud in a bit of a lopsided way. The dunmer have been exploiting beast folk for eons, and that can’t be justified. But I think the nords definitely have most of the blame for their feuds with the dunmer. The nords conquered the entirety of modern day Morrowind. In fact, portions of eastern skyrim were originally dunmer land. The dunmer never really enslaved nords either, at least no more than other non-beastfolk.
But aside from that, I think you bring up a lot of good points. Do you have any examples of how altmer use magic in their daily lives?
On the matter of the Nord v. Dunmer feud it is lopsided though I do think it is accurate. Nords come from old Atmora. Atmora was beginning to get too cold even for a race with near immunity to cold and heavy resistance to thunder. When they began looking for other safer places to live they landed in what is now called Saarthal. These Atmorans built a colony and traded and were friendly with the local Falmer (before they were twisted and poisoned). The Atmorans were murdered and betrayed and escaped to Atmora to gain revenge against the Falmer for the murder of their families and sacking of their town. This is when Ysgramor and his companions arrived and it was the beginning of the end for the Falmer. The territories abut one another but I'm not certain that the Chimer and their Velothi wanderings had even completed at this point. It is a point of fact that war between Nords and Dunmer goes back a long time, as far back as the battle of Red Mountain where Nerevar and Dumac were.
My view of the Altmer is in the seeming fact that in every series of the game even their warriors twist a little magic into things. If they are a chef they like a magical fire. If they are a painter they make alchemical paint. I think its just part of who they are really, just like Redguards, Nords and Orcs make badass warriors. I believe this is in part due to the pressure of the culture and also in part due to their nature.
The feud goes back long before that, back when the nordic empire conquered the chimer and the dwemer. I still don’t think we should excuse or diminish the nord’s role in attacking and harassing the chimer for thousands of years, and still holding onto their land, but we’re getting off topic.
As for the altmer, how much of this do we see in ESO? I ask because a lot of stuff about the altmer has “changed” recently, so I don’t know what’s still considered “true” and what isn’t. Matt’s statement that if magic disappeared, most people wouldn’t notice makes me wonder about this stuff more than ever.No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".
We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.0 -
MythicEmperor✭✭✭✭✭
✭usmguy1234 wrote: »You have to take in to account that the altmer accomplished what they did through racial purity and strict standard enforcement.... the dumner did it off the backs of others (slaves). No comparison to really be had there.It depends on what you mean by "more advanced society." The Telvanni are amazing wizards, but as long as they continue to enslave Argonians (or anybody) they remain barbarians. It's not a trivial consideration, even if you'd like it to be.
If you limit the conversation to tech and magical advances only, I don't think anybody we've seen so far can match Sotha Sil. He's also playing with power that will eventually come at a very high cost to his people. He may have murdered a friend to keep that power. Smart and advanced?
So... what’s wrong with that? Argonians are animals, and we treat them as such. Do you also campaign for the horse’s right to consent before being ridden? I think not. Animals are animals, and it is all the better when they can be used for our benefit.
The Dunmer are definitely the most advanced race. The fact that we have the will to subjugate others proves this. If might makes right, we are infallible. If wisdom is power, we are omnipotent. It is a wonder every Dunmer isn’t revered as a god. Well, besides the Hlaalu, of course.
The fact that the Altmer are only capable of generic stone structures proves that they are about as advanced as the ancient Nedes. Their refracting insect-wing buildings are but myth. The Sun Birds of Alinor are but legend. The Dunmer, however, are safe from the wrath of retcon due to the sheer popularity of TES: 3.
The Altmer are inferior to Dunmer because of the unwillingness of recent TES games to take risks. They don’t want to create something too alien for casual players to relate to, so they instead create a generic fantasy setting. It is a bit unfair to compare to two races, really, because Morrowind was made when Bethesda was going under; it was an all-in game. It had soul. It took risks. Summerset is just a corporate money-printer. Safe. Predictable.
That’s my perspective, anyhow.Edited by MythicEmperor on August 18, 2018 3:31PMWith cold regards,
Mythic
Favorite Characters:Kilith Telvayn, Dunmer Telvanni Sorcerer (main)
Kilith, Dunmer Magblade (old main)
Vadusa Venim, Dunmer crafter (older main)
Hir Hlaalu, Dunmer Warden
Søren Icehelm, N'wah Warden
Fargoth of Morrowind, Bosmer commoner3 -
usmguy1234✭✭✭✭✭
✭MythicEmperor wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »You have to take in to account that the altmer accomplished what they did through racial purity and strict standard enforcement.... the dumner did it off the backs of others (slaves). No comparison to really be had there.It depends on what you mean by "more advanced society." The Telvanni are amazing wizards, but as long as they continue to enslave Argonians (or anybody) they remain barbarians. It's not a trivial consideration, even if you'd like it to be.
If you limit the conversation to tech and magical advances only, I don't think anybody we've seen so far can match Sotha Sil. He's also playing with power that will eventually come at a very high cost to his people. He may have murdered a friend to keep that power. Smart and advanced?
So... what’s wrong with that? Argonians are animals, and we treat them as such. Do you also campaign for the horse’s right to consent before being ridden? I think not. Animals are animals, and it is all the better when they can be used for our benefit.
Your definition of animals=/= sentient beings. You know the southern part of the United States tried to pull the same thing prior to the civil war and look how that turned out. Yeah yeah I'm drawing parallels between real world and fiction.
Edit: For clarificationEdited by usmguy1234 on August 18, 2018 3:23PMZaghigoth- Orc Stamplar
Soul Razor- Altmer Magsorc
Les Drago- Redguard Stamdk
Eirius- Altmer Magdk
Stormifeth- Altmer Magplar
Disclaimer: My comments are a little sarcasm mixed with truth. If you can't handle that don't respond to me.1 -
psychotrip✭✭✭✭✭
✭usmguy1234 wrote: »MythicEmperor wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »You have to take in to account that the altmer accomplished what they did through racial purity and strict standard enforcement.... the dumner did it off the backs of others (slaves). No comparison to really be had there.It depends on what you mean by "more advanced society." The Telvanni are amazing wizards, but as long as they continue to enslave Argonians (or anybody) they remain barbarians. It's not a trivial consideration, even if you'd like it to be.
If you limit the conversation to tech and magical advances only, I don't think anybody we've seen so far can match Sotha Sil. He's also playing with power that will eventually come at a very high cost to his people. He may have murdered a friend to keep that power. Smart and advanced?
So... what’s wrong with that? Argonians are animals, and we treat them as such. Do you also campaign for the horse’s right to consent before being ridden? I think not. Animals are animals, and it is all the better when they can be used for our benefit.
Animals=/= sentient beings. You know the southern part of the United States tried to pull the same thing prior to the civil war and look how that turned out. Yeah yeah I'm drawing parallels between real world and fiction.
I think he's talking in character dude. I doubt he really believes this. Doesn't really help our discussion, but yeah.No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".
We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.0 -
MythicEmperor✭✭✭✭✭
✭usmguy1234 wrote: »MythicEmperor wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »You have to take in to account that the altmer accomplished what they did through racial purity and strict standard enforcement.... the dumner did it off the backs of others (slaves). No comparison to really be had there.It depends on what you mean by "more advanced society." The Telvanni are amazing wizards, but as long as they continue to enslave Argonians (or anybody) they remain barbarians. It's not a trivial consideration, even if you'd like it to be.
If you limit the conversation to tech and magical advances only, I don't think anybody we've seen so far can match Sotha Sil. He's also playing with power that will eventually come at a very high cost to his people. He may have murdered a friend to keep that power. Smart and advanced?
So... what’s wrong with that? Argonians are animals, and we treat them as such. Do you also campaign for the horse’s right to consent before being ridden? I think not. Animals are animals, and it is all the better when they can be used for our benefit.
Your definition of animals=/= sentient beings. You know the southern part of the United States tried to pull the same thing prior to the civil war and look how that turned out. Yeah yeah I'm drawing parallels between real world and fiction.
Edit: For clarification
You know the entirety of the United States pulled that prior to the Civil War with support from the African kings who sold out their own people for profit? It wasn’t just the South, and northerners were still very much racist at the time. Abraham Lincoln, a white supremacist, even stated “If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it.” He didn’t care about ending slavery but rather keeping the states united under a federal system; he just wanted support from the abolitionists.
This isn’t my point at all, but I despise misinformation, especially when it comes to history.
Now, to address the real issue:
ESO is a MMORPG (RPG stands for roleplaying game), meaning it is common for people to roleplay. That being said, I roleplay a Telvanni, and I enjoy acting in-character on the forums. The point I was making with my character was that slavery has no bearing on how advanced a race is and that ethics are irrelevent to this discussion. We are arguing which race is more advanced, not which race is the friendliest by 2018 standards.With cold regards,
Mythic
Favorite Characters:Kilith Telvayn, Dunmer Telvanni Sorcerer (main)
Kilith, Dunmer Magblade (old main)
Vadusa Venim, Dunmer crafter (older main)
Hir Hlaalu, Dunmer Warden
Søren Icehelm, N'wah Warden
Fargoth of Morrowind, Bosmer commoner1 -
Dystopia2020✭✭✭Altmer heed their own progress because they put tradition ahead of innovation.
The Telvanni and Hlaalu will always put innovation, curiosity, and trading first and this moves their society forward, just look and Sotha Sil and his Clockwork city, or Vivec city, both marvels of innovation. The Telvanni have the Bosmer like power to grow the homes they live in.
In the end Innovation will always win out over a stagnant culture that stays that way intentionally.
Dunmer>Altmer
Apotheosis Priori~ EP Altmer Vamplar
Illumanatus Priori~ EP Altmer Mag Sorc
Apostate Priori~ EP Altmer Mag DK
Apostate De'Void~ (retired) AD Altmer crafter
PC/ NA, Vivec
This is the Spiral Skein. The tower is One. The strands are Eight. The lessons are Forever.
"No really, I AM an Ayleid".3 -
usmguy1234✭✭✭✭✭
✭MythicEmperor wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »MythicEmperor wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »You have to take in to account that the altmer accomplished what they did through racial purity and strict standard enforcement.... the dumner did it off the backs of others (slaves). No comparison to really be had there.It depends on what you mean by "more advanced society." The Telvanni are amazing wizards, but as long as they continue to enslave Argonians (or anybody) they remain barbarians. It's not a trivial consideration, even if you'd like it to be.
If you limit the conversation to tech and magical advances only, I don't think anybody we've seen so far can match Sotha Sil. He's also playing with power that will eventually come at a very high cost to his people. He may have murdered a friend to keep that power. Smart and advanced?
So... what’s wrong with that? Argonians are animals, and we treat them as such. Do you also campaign for the horse’s right to consent before being ridden? I think not. Animals are animals, and it is all the better when they can be used for our benefit.
Your definition of animals=/= sentient beings. You know the southern part of the United States tried to pull the same thing prior to the civil war and look how that turned out. Yeah yeah I'm drawing parallels between real world and fiction.
Edit: For clarification
You know the entirety of the United States pulled that prior to the Civil War with support from the African kings who sold out their own people for profit? It wasn’t just the South, and northerners were still very much racist at the time. Abraham Lincoln, a white supremacist, even stated “If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it.” He didn’t care about ending slavery but rather keeping the states united under a federal system; he just wanted support from the abolitionists.
This isn’t my point at all, but I despise misinformation, especially when it comes to history.
Now, to address the real issue:
ESO is a MMORPG (RPG stands for roleplaying game), meaning it is common for people to roleplay. That being said, I roleplay a Telvanni, and I enjoy acting in-character on the forums. The point I was making with my character was that slavery has no bearing on how advanced a race is and that ethics are irrelevent to this discussion. We are arguing which race is more advanced, not which race is the friendliest by 2018 standards.
Slavery absolutely has a lot to do with cultural advancement. You state yourself as a history buff yet you overlook the Egyptians, the Greeks, the Romans etc. just to name a few. Also, the notion that the civil war was state sovereignty vs slavery is still a heated debate to this day.Zaghigoth- Orc Stamplar
Soul Razor- Altmer Magsorc
Les Drago- Redguard Stamdk
Eirius- Altmer Magdk
Stormifeth- Altmer Magplar
Disclaimer: My comments are a little sarcasm mixed with truth. If you can't handle that don't respond to me.2 -
MythicEmperor✭✭✭✭✭
✭usmguy1234 wrote: »MythicEmperor wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »MythicEmperor wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »You have to take in to account that the altmer accomplished what they did through racial purity and strict standard enforcement.... the dumner did it off the backs of others (slaves). No comparison to really be had there.It depends on what you mean by "more advanced society." The Telvanni are amazing wizards, but as long as they continue to enslave Argonians (or anybody) they remain barbarians. It's not a trivial consideration, even if you'd like it to be.
If you limit the conversation to tech and magical advances only, I don't think anybody we've seen so far can match Sotha Sil. He's also playing with power that will eventually come at a very high cost to his people. He may have murdered a friend to keep that power. Smart and advanced?
So... what’s wrong with that? Argonians are animals, and we treat them as such. Do you also campaign for the horse’s right to consent before being ridden? I think not. Animals are animals, and it is all the better when they can be used for our benefit.
Your definition of animals=/= sentient beings. You know the southern part of the United States tried to pull the same thing prior to the civil war and look how that turned out. Yeah yeah I'm drawing parallels between real world and fiction.
Edit: For clarification
You know the entirety of the United States pulled that prior to the Civil War with support from the African kings who sold out their own people for profit? It wasn’t just the South, and northerners were still very much racist at the time. Abraham Lincoln, a white supremacist, even stated “If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it.” He didn’t care about ending slavery but rather keeping the states united under a federal system; he just wanted support from the abolitionists.
This isn’t my point at all, but I despise misinformation, especially when it comes to history.
Now, to address the real issue:
ESO is a MMORPG (RPG stands for roleplaying game), meaning it is common for people to roleplay. That being said, I roleplay a Telvanni, and I enjoy acting in-character on the forums. The point I was making with my character was that slavery has no bearing on how advanced a race is and that ethics are irrelevent to this discussion. We are arguing which race is more advanced, not which race is the friendliest by 2018 standards.
Slavery absolutely has a lot to do with cultural advancement. You state yourself as a history buff yet you overlook the Egyptians, the Greeks, the Romans etc. just to name a few. Also, the notion that the civil war was state sovereignty vs slavery is still a heated debate to this day.
I’m referring to those who said Dunmer advancements don’t count because they used slaves. I definitely could have made that clearer.
Very true; I think it was a little of both. The rich slaveholders sent their sons to die for slavery and the poor farmers who couldn’t afford slaves fought for rights.With cold regards,
Mythic
Favorite Characters:Kilith Telvayn, Dunmer Telvanni Sorcerer (main)
Kilith, Dunmer Magblade (old main)
Vadusa Venim, Dunmer crafter (older main)
Hir Hlaalu, Dunmer Warden
Søren Icehelm, N'wah Warden
Fargoth of Morrowind, Bosmer commoner1 -
Siohwenoeht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Lorewise iirc saint veloth (originally an altmer) was the first to show others how to walk the psijic path and he was inspired by a daedric Lord. Once he organized the split between the chimer and altmer they essentially stayed the same civilization albeit separate until the tribune rebellion which caused the chimer to become the dunmer we know today. This is reflected by azura's curse affecting the tribune as well (almalexia uses her own powers to still appear as a chimer out of vanity and vivec chooses to show half as chimer half as dunmer). The rambling point I'm attempting to make is that duality plays an important role in TES even with the aedra/daedra and anui-el/sithis dichotomy, so perhaps the altmer and dunmer are supposed to be reflections of the parts each tries to deny in their respective civilizations.Edited by Siohwenoeht on August 26, 2018 6:27AM"It is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time saying anything in it, because we do not say anything in it, unless it is worth taking a long time to say, and to listen to." - Treebeard4 -
scipionumatia✭✭✭✭I have to say the altmer are more advanced. Ive read here that many are not impressed with their structures because they are built from stone while the dunmer build structures from the land that grow and etc. I think there is a misconception here between necessity and practicality. For example much of the dunmer homeland is mud and has much volcanic activity, meaning rigid stone structures would not do well in a land which is constantly damp and swamp like with a lot of tectonic tremors. The more sophisticated mushroom structures are a necessity of the landscape and when we compare the quantity of dunmer that live in the sophisticated mushroom structures to those who live in cloth-laden shacks it seems more common for dunmer to be calling the hut a home. Even the dunmer that live off vvardenfell tend to prefer living in stone medieval-esk structures as we see in deshann and ebonhart. A little off topic: where possible, most civilizations we see in the elder scrolls prefer to live in stone structures when the habitat permits. The nords, orc, bretons, altmer, and imperials all choose stone structures predominantly. The khajiit and argonians live in structures that are more attuned to their physicality- being either tall sloping wooden structures or mud huts respectively. The redguards who are nomadic live often in tents, the ones who arent usually live in stone or wood structures. The bosmer live in trees because it is most practical for the region they reside in, and the dunmer live where they live for similar reasons as the bosmer- out of practicality for the region.
All in all i dont think we should look down on the altmer for living in stone structures, they are practical, strong, retain interior climate well, and are resistant to the elements.
Now as to why i think the altmer are superior technologically. They are very organized, arguably the most organized race (imperials are another contender). When it comes to schooling and education structure they provide some of the best if not the best. I consider this schooling and education to be one of their most superior technologies. This is also why they are often found as book keepers, alchemists, or searchers of wisdom. The goal of their culture is to bolster and preserve altmer-kind, and as such they operate to lift each other up for the most part (of course there will be outliers, they are all individuals. im talking as a collective) and to gain as much knowledge as possible. Dunmer on the other hand have a lot of in-fighting, their goals tend to be more "house" specific and their culture more tribal, this selfishness deters growth (when looking at the race as a unit instead of looking at the tribe as a unit).
For the sake of above arguments i am excluding the technologies and methods of the "one ofs" and focusing more broadly on the majority or common members of their societies.
This isnt to say the dunmer or the altmer are inept technologically, just that their technologies are more attuned for their needs. If culture isnt taken into account, we have no gauge to base effectiveness/utility outside of saying "this notable figure did X, and this notable figure did Y", these instances are outliers and i dont think they should be counted as a determining factor of an entire races ingenuity.
just my 2 cents
Scipio Numantia Red guard Nightblade PvP- AD
Scipio Asiaticus Khajiit Nightblade (CRAFTER/DPS) PvE- EP
Altmer Nightblade PvP- EP
Fueoculto Breton Templar (DPS) PvE- EP
Rasoculto Orc Dragon Knight PvP- EP
Caethus Argonian Templar (HEAL) PvE- EP
Vale Oso Nord Sorc (DPS) PvE- AD
Sir-Galahad-the-pure Altmer Sorc (DPS) PvE- EP
Scipionumantine Imperial Templar PvP- EP
Un-bearable Imperial Warden PVP- EP
Vale Bear Altmer Warden PvP- EP
Baits-All-Zergs Argonian Dragon knight PVP- DC2 -
psychotrip✭✭✭✭✭
✭scipionumatia wrote: »I have to say the altmer are more advanced. Ive read here that many are not impressed with their structures because they are built from stone while the dunmer build structures from the land that grow and etc. I think there is a misconception here between necessity and practicality. For example much of the dunmer homeland is mud and has much volcanic activity, meaning rigid stone structures would not do well in a land which is constantly damp and swamp like with a lot of tectonic tremors. The more sophisticated mushroom structures are a necessity of the landscape and when we compare the quantity of dunmer that live in the sophisticated mushroom structures to those who live in cloth-laden shacks it seems more common for dunmer to be calling the hut a home. Even the dunmer that live off vvardenfell tend to prefer living in stone medieval-esk structures as we see in deshann and ebonhart. A little off topic: where possible, most civilizations we see in the elder scrolls prefer to live in stone structures when the habitat permits. The nords, orc, bretons, altmer, and imperials all choose stone structures predominantly. The khajiit and argonians live in structures that are more attuned to their physicality- being either tall sloping wooden structures or mud huts respectively. The redguards who are nomadic live often in tents, the ones who arent usually live in stone or wood structures. The bosmer live in trees because it is most practical for the region they reside in, and the dunmer live where they live for similar reasons as the bosmer- out of practicality for the region.
All in all i dont think we should look down on the altmer for living in stone structures, they are practical, strong, retain interior climate well, and are resistant to the elements.
Now as to why i think the altmer are superior technologically. They are very organized, arguably the most organized race (imperials are another contender). When it comes to schooling and education structure they provide some of the best if not the best. I consider this schooling and education to be one of their most superior technologies. This is also why they are often found as book keepers, alchemists, or searchers of wisdom. The goal of their culture is to bolster and preserve altmer-kind, and as such they operate to lift each other up for the most part (of course there will be outliers, they are all individuals. im talking as a collective) and to gain as much knowledge as possible. Dunmer on the other hand have a lot of in-fighting, their goals tend to be more "house" specific and their culture more tribal, this selfishness deters growth (when looking at the race as a unit instead of looking at the tribe as a unit).
For the sake of above arguments i am excluding the technologies and methods of the "one ofs" and focusing more broadly on the majority or common members of their societies.
This isnt to say the dunmer or the altmer are inept technologically, just that their technologies are more attuned for their needs. If culture isnt taken into account, we have no gauge to base effectiveness/utility outside of saying "this notable figure did X, and this notable figure did Y", these instances are outliers and i dont think they should be counted as a determining factor of an entire races ingenuity.
just my 2 cents
I still don't see an example of anything the altmer have done or made that can put them up to par with most of the other races, let alone the dunmer. Hell, even the ancient nords and nedes had gigantic structures with mechanized components, and other features that would require advanced engineering. The chimer were building industrialized sewer systems with modern piping in the first era, and town-sized buildings with suitable ventilation and water filtration.
So...what do the Altmer actually have by comparison? Unless it's an Aldmer hand-me-down, it's probably inferior to anything anyone else has made. The Altmer are just medieval humans with pointy ears.I consider this schooling and education to be one of their most superior technologies. This is also why they are often found as book keepers, alchemists, or searchers of wisdom.
Both the dunmer and the third empire have schooling systems. In Morrowind they have public education funded by the temple. It's never really explained how education is handled in the empire, but it's explicitly stated that most citizens are literate and that education is widely available.
So what exactly is special about the Altmer education system? If they're supposed to be learning about Altmer perfection and how to replicate the past, they're certainly not doing a good of it. Take a look at all the worn down ruins littered across the landscape. They certainly don't know how to replicate or maintain most of the feats their Aldmer ancestors achieved.Edited by psychotrip on August 27, 2018 5:34PMNo one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".
We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.3
