Easy Solution to Rune Cage

Gnozo

Yo,

Give Frag CC back.

Blockable, Dodgeable and even reflectable. Sorcs are not forced into Flame Reach with Master Staff or using Rune Cage for CC.

No one complained about Frag CC and it was fine for the last 3 years.

ZOS, admit that this was an nerf no one wanted and revert it.

Thanks

Galarthor

Asking to bring back CFrag CC is more about nostalgia than pracmatism as it still gives you no way of dealing with perma blockers and perma dodgers. The only advantage it got compared with the reach CC is that you can use it more tatically - i.e. you can choose when you want to (try to) stun your opponent without having to hold back on your sustain / spammable DPS.

Yes it gives us more build diversity, but it does not solve any of the fundamental issues.

Ragnaroek93

I agree with giving frags the stun back.

Galarthor wrote: »

Asking to bring back CFrag CC is more about nostalgia than pracmatism as it still gives you no way of dealing with perma blockers and perma dodgers. The only advantage it got compared with the reach CC is that you can use it more tatically - i.e. you can choose when you want to (try to) stun your opponent without having to hold back on your sustain / spammable DPS.

Yes it gives us more build diversity, but it does not solve any of the fundamental issues.

The minds of the average magsorc player: Dodgeroll is cheesy and needs to get nerfed, block is cheesy and needs to get nerfed, defile is balanced and shields are weak because they don't scale into 1vX.

Derra

Galarthor wrote: »

Asking to bring back CFrag CC is more about nostalgia than pracmatism as it still gives you no way of dealing with perma blockers and perma dodgers. The only advantage it got compared with the reach CC is that you can use it more tatically - i.e. you can choose when you want to (try to) stun your opponent without having to hold back on your sustain / spammable DPS.

Yes it gives us more build diversity, but it does not solve any of the fundamental issues.

personally i don´t think that sorc is in such a bad spot vs perma dodge and perma block.
a permablocker will never kill a sorc - is it annoying to fight? sure - but it´s usually manageable.

dodge could easily adressed by removing the cost stacking for streak when a target is damaged - this has been asked for for ages.

but i agree the class needs more changes than one or two skills at this point because it´s too pidgeonholed into slotting atleast 8 mandatory abilitys for competetive builds open world.

Beardimus

ZOS know they need to do something, hence talk on blast prod with reps.

The fear is, they don't seem to have anything planned for U19..... weird

But agreed. They nerfed frig which no one was moaning about, its had far wider implications than they realised, and they started this cage debarkle rather than revert the Nerf.

Blast proc will still be 20% down on old frag and missing 20% empower so still be very weak to old Frag, but hey its that or reach meta pigeonhole

Derra

Beardimus wrote: »

ZOS know they need to do something, hence talk on blast prod with reps.

The fear is, they don't seem to have anything planned for U19..... weird

But agreed. They nerfed frig which no one was moaning about, its had far wider implications than they realised, and they started this cage debarkle rather than revert the Nerf.

Blast proc will still be 20% down on old frag and missing 20% empower so still be very weak to old Frag, but hey its that or reach meta pigeonhole

I could live with that if they´d let frags procc from both bars without doubleslotting it - you know like assassins will light?

Galarthor

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

The minds of the average magsorc player: Dodgeroll is cheesy and needs to get nerfed, block is cheesy and needs to get nerfed, defile is balanced and shields are weak because they don't scale into 1vX.

The mind of the average stamblade: My class is worst of all. It always has been. The only reason I manage to kill people is because of god-like skills.

You ask for counterplay against rune cage but don't want any counterplay to your class' abilities and mechanisms. You claim undodgeable stuns are OP, yet have an undodgeable stun. You claim a secondary effect on a stun is OP, yet have minor maim and 50% slow on yours.

All I am asking is to have counterplay against perma blocking and perma dodging the same way you want counterplay against rune cage. And that CCs are treated equal - either they are supposed to be without a counter or they are not. Same goes for CP and traits when it comes to stamina vs magicka builds. But you stamblades wouldnt like that ... would make life harder if you don't have an inherent advantage, that's why you get so pissy when somebody points out the imbalances in the design.

Derra wrote: »

personally i don´t think that sorc is in such a bad spot vs perma dodge and perma block.
a permablocker will never kill a sorc - is it annoying to fight? sure - but it´s usually manageable.

dodge could easily adressed by removing the cost stacking for streak when a target is damaged - this has been asked for for ages.

but i agree the class needs more changes than one or two skills at this point because it´s too pidgeonholed into slotting atleast 8 mandatory abilitys for competetive builds open world.

I would agree with your @Derra if it wasn't for the proc sets. They can deal a decent amount of damage while being build extremely tanky and permanently blocking. Another issue is the cost reduction they can achieve in the CP and armor trait system. You are going to run out of magicka or stamina throwing your attacks long before they are going to run out of stamina from blocking. Now having an unblockable stun evens the odds.

If they were just tanky and nothing else then it wouldn't be an issue. It would be boring but if he can't kill him due to lack of damage and you can't kill him due to his tankiness then it can be considered balanced. But more often than not these tanks can still kill you.

As for perma dodgers, the cost reduction in CP and armor trait system, do their part in making it so strong. They can reduce the cost by so much that the cost increase does not really have the intended effect - imagine how much more sorcs would streak if you could reduce the cost by 90%. And that is with a 50% cost increase instead of only 33%. Without those exorbitant cost reductions they perma-dodging issue would not exist in the first place. Of course the actual cost of dodging will have to be reevaluated if you remove the cost reduction from CP and armor trait system, to ensure it is where you want it to be / were it is balanced, allowing stamina players to dodge to mitigated damage but not indefinitely.

And finally, I don't really care what the counterplay to perma dodging is. Be it that we got sufficient undodgable sustained DPS to slowly drain their HP or something like a undodgeable stun that gives you a brief window of opportunity to kill them, or a cost increase that lets them run out of stamina if they dodge roll excessively ... similar to how you run out of magicka when you streak too much.There just needs to be some counterplay.

The current situation is not really balanced where they can continuously dodge pretty much everything except for Curse ... and contrary to what Ragnaroek93 and DDuke believe, you can't kill a perma dodger with only curse ... at least not if the dodger got half a brain and uses a heal / cloak every once in a while.

Derra

Galarthor wrote: »

at least not if the dodger got half a brain and uses a heal / cloak every once in a while.

That´s not valid argument to make though - as no dodge based build can dodge continuously. It´s only a problem in combination with mechanics that allow to reset the cooldown.

Those are only accessible to NB and stamSORC - cloak and ball of lightning.

There is a reason you don´t see too many medium armor builds on classes that aren´t NB.

BohnT

Galarthor wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

The minds of the average magsorc player: Dodgeroll is cheesy and needs to get nerfed, block is cheesy and needs to get nerfed, defile is balanced and shields are weak because they don't scale into 1vX.

The mind of the average stamblade: My class is worst of all. It always has been. The only reason I manage to kill people is because of god-like skills.

You ask for counterplay against rune cage but don't want any counterplay to your class' abilities and mechanisms. You claim undodgeable stuns are OP, yet have an undodgeable stun. You claim a secondary effect on a stun is OP, yet have minor maim and 50% slow on yours.

All I am asking is to have counterplay against perma blocking and perma dodging the same way you want counterplay against rune cage. And that CCs are treated equal - either they are supposed to be without a counter or they are not. Same goes for CP and traits when it comes to stamina vs magicka builds. But you stamblades wouldnt like that ... would make life harder if you don't have an inherent advantage, that's why you get so pissy when somebody points out the imbalances in the design.

Derra wrote: »

personally i don´t think that sorc is in such a bad spot vs perma dodge and perma block.
a permablocker will never kill a sorc - is it annoying to fight? sure - but it´s usually manageable.

dodge could easily adressed by removing the cost stacking for streak when a target is damaged - this has been asked for for ages.

but i agree the class needs more changes than one or two skills at this point because it´s too pidgeonholed into slotting atleast 8 mandatory abilitys for competetive builds open world.

I would agree with your @Derra if it wasn't for the proc sets. They can deal a decent amount of damage while being build extremely tanky and permanently blocking. Another issue is the cost reduction they can achieve in the CP and armor trait system. You are going to run out of magicka or stamina throwing your attacks long before they are going to run out of stamina from blocking. Now having an unblockable stun evens the odds.

If they were just tanky and nothing else then it wouldn't be an issue. It would be boring but if he can't kill him due to lack of damage and you can't kill him due to his tankiness then it can be considered balanced. But more often than not these tanks can still kill you.

As for perma dodgers, the cost reduction in CP and armor trait system, do their part in making it so strong. They can reduce the cost by so much that the cost increase does not really have the intended effect - imagine how much more sorcs would streak if you could reduce the cost by 90%. And that is with a 50% cost increase instead of only 33%. Without those exorbitant cost reductions they perma-dodging issue would not exist in the first place. Of course the actual cost of dodging will have to be reevaluated if you remove the cost reduction from CP and armor trait system, to ensure it is where you want it to be / were it is balanced, allowing stamina players to dodge to mitigated damage but not indefinitely.

And finally, I don't really care what the counterplay to perma dodging is. Be it that we got sufficient undodgable sustained DPS to slowly drain their HP or something like a undodgeable stun that gives you a brief window of opportunity to kill them, or a cost increase that lets them run out of stamina if they dodge roll excessively ... similar to how you run out of magicka when you streak too much.There just needs to be some counterplay.

The current situation is not really balanced where they can continuously dodge pretty much everything except for Curse ... and contrary to what Ragnaroek93 and DDuke believe, you can't kill a perma dodger with only curse ... at least not if the dodger got half a brain and uses a heal / cloak every once in a while.

I know you won't listen to me but hey i can try.

The procs you are talking about are long gone, the only thing left is sloads or magicka based procs, stamina procs got thankfully nerfed to the point where you don't have to spend any resources to avoid their damage or their damage is so small that it doesn't matter like viper.

Permablocking and permadodge is a myth created by people who have never played such a build. Blocking costs minimum 1600 stamina every second if the enemy is fully invested into block cost reduction, meaning he needs a source of 1600 stam every second that doesn't come from regen, small hint that doesn't exist.
Same with "permadodge" builds the last time we had those was pre morrowind and that wasn't even their most potent time.
Back then sorcs could've cried but not around this time.

Rune cage is one of the most overperfoming skills in the game not for what it does but on which class it does it.
That's why fear and fossilize are fine and balanced skill while rune cage is overperfoming.

Sorc is build around delayed burst that hits in one gcd, that's why meteor is one of the best ults for sorcs, curse has a 3.5 sec delay, mage's wrath can be applied beforehand, the strongest magicka scaling shield is in their toolkit to give them access to an offensive window and that's why frags are like they are and not like another assassin's will or power lash.

This delayed huge chunk of damage that can hit in one gcd is the reason magsorc should never have access to an CC that has no Universal, always available counterplay because it's made to kill the target in one hit, if you can make it hit, it will kill, if your enemy has no Chance of defending himself he will die everytime.

Magdk and Stamnb don't have access to such delayed damage skills, the equivalent would be that you are always unable to break free for 3 seconds after their CCs hit you in order for the damage to be comperable that hits a target that can't defend itself.
Do you think that's balanced?


I've been playing my magsorc the whole time since Summerset dropped, without rune i don't need to disrespect my enemy, just the old destro reach build.
I've not died a single time in an 1v1 vs a block build, i couldn't kill them all but i didn't die and that's important.
More importantly i still killed almost any NB that crossed my way no matter how often they dodge your skills, they can't sustain dodge longer than you can sustain spamming skills on a good magsorc build and one full burst rota is enough to kill them, maybe you need a second or third attempt but they are all vulnerable and None of them can't be killed.
If i switched to rune cage the fights had been so much easier and highly favoured me rather than the NBs, with a CC like reach the fights are all the more balanced for both sides.


Also you still have the opportunity to delete one stamplayer everytime your meteor is up.
The effectiveness of the rota didn't lose much only the damage of rune cage you will still be able to hit anyone with meteor+curse+frags with no universal counterplay.
Why? Because either they get stunned by rune cage because they want to block the meteor ---> eat them frags now
Or they try to dodge the frags----> eat the meteor and then eat my frags.

The match up magsorc with rune cage vs dodge build still highly favours the magsorc and it will continue to do so

Galarthor

Derra wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

at least not if the dodger got half a brain and uses a heal / cloak every once in a while.

That´s not valid argument to make though - as no dodge based build can dodge continuously. It´s only a problem in combination with mechanics that allow to reset the cooldown.

Those are only accessible to NB and stamSORC - cloak and ball of lightning.

There is a reason you don´t see too many medium armor builds on classes that aren´t NB.

They don't have to dodge infinitely often ... just long enough for you to run out of magicka/stamina.

Just look at the reduction they can achieve.

And I keep saying, stamblades are the issue when it comes to dodging. And I am pointing out the hypocracy of stamblades complaining about sorcs hurting them, when they got so much going for themselves.

Medium Armor is underperforming, while Heavy Armor is overperforming.
That means buffing Medium armor, not nerfing games mechanics in such a way that the already overperforming stamblade class is getting even more advantages and the gap increases.

You think dodge rolling is too expensive without Tumbling? Fine! Put the cost reduction on the Medium Armor. That way you can bring down the heavy armor builds by limiting the amount of dodging they can do and increase the relative survivabiltiy of medium armor. You could even include a passive that increases HoT or heals itself over time. But don't take the few counter to perma dodging and remove them while stamblades get almost every tool available in this game.

And tbh, in terms of passives and mitigation Medium armor still far outshines light armor. There are plenty of magicka builds that also run Heavy Armor. It's not like Light Armor is in such a great spot either. Annulment mitigates damage more reliably, but is in turn limited. And you usually don't see a lot of people running it except as a backup shield when fighting against magicka builds.

So that makes Heavy Armor the actual issue. There are 2 ways to address this issue:
1) Bring HA down.
2) Buff the LA and MA.

Well there is a 3rd way:
3) Nerf the proc sets. As I pointed out above, these sets allow people to be a tank and still deal damage similar to a pure DPS. That one of the reasons they all run in their HA sets. If you manage to address the proc set issue, then they will have to choose between being a tank or a damage dealer / healer. But I guess ZOS nerfing / removing Proc sets is never going to happen, so it is down to the first 2 options.

The discussion also always neglects the amount of Major/Minor buffs and debuffs the classes get from the commonly used skills. Looks pretty bleak for sorcs there.

Ragnaroek93

Galarthor wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

The minds of the average magsorc player: Dodgeroll is cheesy and needs to get nerfed, block is cheesy and needs to get nerfed, defile is balanced and shields are weak because they don't scale into 1vX.

The mind of the average stamblade: My class is worst of all. It always has been. The only reason I manage to kill people is because of god-like skills.

You ask for counterplay against rune cage but don't want any counterplay to your class' abilities and mechanisms. You claim undodgeable stuns are OP, yet have an undodgeable stun. You claim a secondary effect on a stun is OP, yet have minor maim and 50% slow on yours.

All I am asking is to have counterplay against perma blocking and perma dodging the same way you want counterplay against rune cage. And that CCs are treated equal - either they are supposed to be without a counter or they are not. Same goes for CP and traits when it comes to stamina vs magicka builds. But you stamblades wouldnt like that ... would make life harder if you don't have an inherent advantage, that's why you get so pissy when somebody points out the imbalances in the design.

Easy counterplay against a defense mechanic isn't the same as counterplay against a burst combo. If you want to have counterplay against dodgeroll by default (not by sacrificing something which gives you an disadvantage in other situations like slotting overwhelming surge), wouldn't it be fair if other classes get a default counter against shields as well? For example letting executes go through shields? Or let Defile go on shields?

Beside of Fear, Nb doesn't have an execute which is undodgeable, a delayed burst skill which is undodgeable and Fear is instant so the follow up is dodgeable as well. Your problem is most likely Cloak and not dodgeroll, if it isn't when feel free to create a permaroll build and I'll happily toast you with my magsorc (once my pc is repaired ).
I've stated several times my opinion about Cloak, but however, nerfing it in the current state of the game would just remove the last build which can make bow builds work in PvP. The solution is obvious: I would happily nerf Cloak a lot for stamnb (on mag nb Cloak is fine tho) while buffing med armor and bow in exchange. But it's pointless because people like you would agree with the first one while disagreeing with the latter one

Galarthor wrote: »

I would agree with your @Derra if it wasn't for the proc sets. They can deal a decent amount of damage while being build extremely tanky and permanently blocking. Another issue is the cost reduction they can achieve in the CP and armor trait system. You are going to run out of magicka or stamina throwing your attacks long before they are going to run out of stamina from blocking. Now having an unblockable stun evens the odds.

If they were just tanky and nothing else then it wouldn't be an issue. It would be boring but if he can't kill him due to lack of damage and you can't kill him due to his tankiness then it can be considered balanced. But more often than not these tanks can still kill you.

Be careful mate. Just because you die to permablockers doesn't mean that Derra dies to them as well (I actually know that he doesn't LUL). Permablocking proc tanks aren't relevant since over a year now... It's like @DDuke said earlier. You want to be able to kill everything while being untouchable by yourself behind mines and shields. If you want an I win button against block and dodge builds... choose one class (I don't care which one) and we allow every damage skill from this class to ignore shields. Sounds fine, right?

Also explain me how dodging is any different than shieldstacking? Both are defense mechanics with the purpose to keep you alive. Stuff which ignores a defense mechanic is bad (shieldbreaker for example), stuff which ignores defense without any drawbacks in other situations is even worse (Runecage).


Imo they should just revert all Sload nerfs and even buff that set (double the damage which Sloads does on someone while they are using a defense mechanic). Damage which you can't avoid is exactly what the majority of this community wants, what they defend (as long as it doesn't affect their own class) and what they deserve.

Galarthor

@BohnT thank you for some logical arguements. I am with you on the delayed burst and the huge potential it got. I can even get behind your assessment that due to the (delayed) burst such a CC should not be accessible to sorcs. There are, however, two balance-related issues that have to be resolved:

1) If sorcs cannot deliver they burst b/c something around 90% is blocked/dodged then sorcs are basically useless. B/c they will never kill anybody outside of their burst peaks. That means if sorcs do not have a way around the dodging / blocking then they need a way to get through it.

I don't mind Rune Cage having a counter. I do mind that sorcs are now left pretty helpless against stamblades.

2) Dks and NBs can hit like trucks as well and are also able to kill people within the 1 or 2 global cooldowns. So the undodgeable and unblockable CC is OP in their hands as well. It should be either all or none of the high burst classes. Some classes may have a bit higher burst than others, but the latter usually have higher sustain pressure, meaning when the burst hits the target is lower on HP / Shields leading to the same end result.

Therefore, their stuns should also have counters. Especially since their secondary effects are much more potent - i.e. addtional root (which means you need 2 global cooldowns and a lot of stamina for something that cost the DK 1 GCD and very little resources), Minor Maim, 50% slow.

You should also keep in mind that neither of those stuns is telegraphed (though I haven't seen how obivous it is for Rune Cage yet).

As for perma blocking and perma dodging: They don't have to block / dodge for all eternity. They simply have to outlast you. And with 2.1k cost for e.g. Force Pulse the cost is about 1/3 higher than the cost of blocking. I know there is regen, but there is also mist form and S&B ulti. There are many other factors that affect the cost of both attacking and blocking and there is no time and space to address all possible combinations here. But I think you get my general point.

As for how potent the Meteor-Rune Cage combo will be after the patch, that will remain to be seen b/c they can simply block after the dodge. And there is only a fraction of a second between dodge and block where you could potentially hit the NB with the Rune Cage after the dodge immunity ends. Keep in mind, Rune Cage has a delay and the dodge roll effect has an after-effect.

In addition, the NB will figure out quite quickly if his opponent has Rune Cage or not. If not then the NB can simply block, b/c the stun from e.g. Reach won't affect him that way and the Meteor will be blocked. So in that scenario you won't be able to CC a NB at all.

Furthermore, even if the meteor stuns the target, only being able to stun somebody that continously stuns you when your got an expensive ultimate ready seems a bit imbalanced.

And finally, NBs always had two good counters against the Meteor-Rune Cage combo and one is pretty much identical to the dodge solution ZOS created.
1) CC the sorc when the meteor is telegraphed. Which works b/c you stun has no counters!
2) Cloak! If you cloak when the meteor is telegraphed then the Rune Cage won't hit you (like now when you dodge) and then simply hold block right before the meteor hit. Due to the delay on the rune cage and the reaction time of the sorc and the time required to re-acuqire the previously invisible NB the NB is able to to avoid both the Meteor and the Rune Cage.

So of all the classes, there was no class that had less reason to complain about the undodgeable Rune Cage. They had:
1) a more powerful version of the same CC and also a lot of burst (when they were stamblades)
2) great counters against Meteor-Rune Cage combo, which most of them simply chose to ignore so they could ask for nerfs.

IAVITNI

BohnT wrote: »

Also you still have the opportunity to delete one stamplayer everytime your meteor is up.
The effectiveness of the rota didn't lose much only the damage of rune cage you will still be able to hit anyone with meteor+curse+frags with no universal counterplay.
Why? Because either they get stunned by rune cage because they want to block the meteor ---> eat them frags now
Or they try to dodge the frags----> eat the meteor and then eat my frags.

The match up magsorc with rune cage vs dodge build still highly favours the magsorc and it will continue to do so

I don't know about the bolded statement. I've fought plenty of medium builds open world that can survive the combo. Medium in dueling/1v1 requires mitigation investment, no way around it and there shouldn't be one anyways. Maybe it's a console v pc meta where console builds tankier (latency issues) but I really don't understand this whole instagib concept for medium users.

I fought a NB in IC and he had no problems fighting me in medium. He did have a more duel-centric build whereas mine was more open world (Lich+Spinner+EG--more sustain than necessary), but mechanically there were plenty of ways to deal with a Meteor combo. The difference was that he played defensively, which is how any class should play against a sorc. The only guaranteed kills with meteor are against players that go full rambo and have no idea what they're doing.

Note* He didn't use Cloak (and I didn't use Cage) so it wasn't a NB only thing.

Stamsorc is the least prep'd to counter the meteor combo and only because BoL isn't as mandatory as Crystalize, Wings, Purge, Cloak on the standard setups. With BalloL, every class has a way to counter a meteor combo, even with Rune Cage since every class can negate ~1/4 of the burst damage. And if people are dying to Curse-Fury-Frag then that's on them. With Rune Cage becoming dodgeable and no damage, it's not really worth the slot. Most sorcs will probably transition back to DB since it's simply more versatile. The Meteor+rune combo will still exist but it will be far less potent and far more niche than it is on live.

And as for medium players building more defensive on console, imo that's a sign of balance. Heavy builds into damage and medium builds into mitigation--the areas which the armors are naturally lacking. I think a lot of medium players fail to realize that they need to invest in some form of mitigation. The problem isn't that medium needs to invest in mitigation, the problem is return on investment relative to heavy/light.

Most bring up the issue of shield stacking but it's a completely different defensive mechanic and much of the "issues" are greatly exaggerated. It's like comparing a car and a boat-both have their pros/cons but they rely on different mechanics to get the job done and simply can't be compared side-by-side. That said, Shields does need an adjustment (not necessarily a nerf), but that's a whole other topic.

BohnT

Galarthor wrote: »

@BohnT thank you for some logical arguements. I am with you on the delayed burst and the huge potential it got. I can even get behind your assessment that due to the (delayed) burst such a CC should not be accessible to sorcs. There are, however, two balance-related issues that have to be resolved:

1) If sorcs cannot deliver they burst b/c something around 90% is blocked/dodged then sorcs are basically useless. B/c they will never kill anybody outside of their burst peaks. That means if sorcs do not have a way around the dodging / blocking then they need a way to get through it.

I don't mind Rune Cage having a counter. I do mind that sorcs are now left pretty helpless against stamblades.

2) Dks and NBs can hit like trucks as well and are also able to kill people within the 1 or 2 global cooldowns. So the undodgeable and unblockable CC is OP in their hands as well. It should be either all or none of the high burst classes. Some classes may have a bit higher burst than others, but the latter usually have higher sustain pressure, meaning when the burst hits the target is lower on HP / Shields leading to the same end result.

Therefore, their stuns should also have counters. Especially since their secondary effects are much more potent - i.e. addtional root (which means you need 2 global cooldowns and a lot of stamina for something that cost the DK 1 GCD and very little resources), Minor Maim, 50% slow.

You should also keep in mind that neither of those stuns is telegraphed (though I haven't seen how obivous it is for Rune Cage yet).

As for perma blocking and perma dodging: They don't have to block / dodge for all eternity. They simply have to outlast you. And with 2.1k cost for e.g. Force Pulse the cost is about 1/3 higher than the cost of blocking. I know there is regen, but there is also mist form and S&B ulti. There are many other factors that affect the cost of both attacking and blocking and there is no time and space to address all possible combinations here. But I think you get my general point.

As for how potent the Meteor-Rune Cage combo will be after the patch, that will remain to be seen b/c they can simply block after the dodge. And there is only a fraction of a second between dodge and block where you could potentially hit the NB with the Rune Cage after the dodge immunity ends. Keep in mind, Rune Cage has a delay and the dodge roll effect has an after-effect.

In addition, the NB will figure out quite quickly if his opponent has Rune Cage or not. If not then the NB can simply block, b/c the stun from e.g. Reach won't affect him that way and the Meteor will be blocked. So in that scenario you won't be able to CC a NB at all.

Furthermore, even if the meteor stuns the target, only being able to stun somebody that continously stuns you when your got an expensive ultimate ready seems a bit imbalanced.

And finally, NBs always had two good counters against the Meteor-Rune Cage combo and one is pretty much identical to the dodge solution ZOS created.
1) CC the sorc when the meteor is telegraphed. Which works b/c you stun has no counters!
2) Cloak! If you cloak when the meteor is telegraphed then the Rune Cage won't hit you (like now when you dodge) and then simply hold block right before the meteor hit. Due to the delay on the rune cage and the reaction time of the sorc and the time required to re-acuqire the previously invisible NB the NB is able to to avoid both the Meteor and the Rune Cage.

So of all the classes, there was no class that had less reason to complain about the undodgeable Rune Cage. They had:
1) a more powerful version of the same CC and also a lot of burst (when they were stamblades)
2) great counters against Meteor-Rune Cage combo, which most of them simply chose to ignore so they could ask for nerfs.

It doesn't matter if something is telegraphed if they can't do anything about it in the first place.
It doesn't matter if i know that a meteor will smash the earth in 2 days or if i don't the result will be that everyone is dead then no matter what they do same with things that don't have counterplay.

As i said before the stuns on magdk and Stamnb are fine as they have no guaranteed hit afterwards.
The whole stamnb burst is dodgeable and blockable.
Magdk has an undodgeable ult the rest is blockable and dodgeable (except for the AoEs but they aren't a threat in the first place when you have more than 3k health when you get stunned)

I have yet to see a viable magsorc build that runs out of mag when focusing an enemy that's holding block or keeps dodging before the enemy runs dry.


The meteor combo is still uncounterable, you can time everything perfectly so rune cage and meteor hit right at the same time and no one can block and dodge at the same time meaning they eat the stun no matter what they do and then you can give them the frags, there's nothing they can do about it.


Also it's not fair to say "but stamnb can counter it" when everyone else just gets flat out removed from the game.
Medium armor builds and light armor builds went almost extinct the day sorcs started using rune cage simply because one sorc would kill them and there's nothing they can do about it.
The only ones who survived are magnbs as they can make good use of harness and cloak + they have access to minor maim,
magsorcs as they can shield through the burst
All others were forced to run a defensive set something which wasn't needed before (both my magdk and my magplar ran around without a dedicated defensive set)
The only class that has the luxury to play medium armor to its full strength is stamnb all others have to use impreg, brass or pariah in order to survive while losing so much damage and sustain by doing so that it's more benefical to run heavy with 2 offensive set.

It's not like heavy is very good atm the passives are mediocre and especially the sustain is weak while the damage is also lacky if you don't run 2 offensive sets or abuse some cheese.


One last thing you assume people are only blocking or dodgeing when you talk about sustain but use skills just as often as you do and especially when talking about dodge builds there is always a gap between dodges because it's impossible to dodge all the time.
What's not impossible is to stay inside your mines and try to get the reaches off once they finish their dodge roll.

Galarthor

BohnT wrote: »

It doesn't matter if something is telegraphed if they can't do anything about it in the first place.
It doesn't matter if i know that a meteor will smash the earth in 2 days or if i don't the result will be that everyone is dead then no matter what they do same with things that don't have counterplay.

I was referring to the new Rune Cage post-Update and how Fear will be even stronger now in comparision.
And it always had counterplay, though I agree it was more difficult for non-NBs.

BohnT wrote: »

As i said before the stuns on magdk and Stamnb are fine as they have no guaranteed hit afterwards.
The whole stamnb burst is dodgeable and blockable.
Magdk has an undodgeable ult the rest is blockable and dodgeable (except for the AoEs but they aren't a threat in the first place when you have more than 3k health when you get stunned)

1. They both put up way more sustain pressure than sorcs. Thus you are usually at lower health / shield strength when they stun you, which means they have to deal less damage during and right after the stun to actually kill you.

2. Permanently dodging and blocking stmblade attacks might be feasible for your stamina builds, but it is not for magicka builds.

BohnT wrote: »

The meteor combo is still uncounterable, you can time everything perfectly so rune cage and meteor hit right at the same time and no one can block and dodge at the same time meaning they eat the stun no matter what they do and then you can give them the frags, there's nothing they can do about it.

That's the equivalent to stamblade stunning sorc when shields are low / run out killing the sorc.

BohnT wrote: »

Also it's not fair to say "but stamnb can counter it" when everyone else just gets flat out removed from the game.
Medium armor builds and light armor builds went almost extinct the day sorcs started using rune cage simply because one sorc would kill them and there's nothing they can do about it.

Funny, NBs weren't complaining when they ran around in the proc sets and started the heavy armor meta back in the days. Back then they considered 1-GCD-kills from Stealth balanced. Now that they are facing something that can be countered a lot easier as a NB, they considere it all of a sudden OP and cry out for nerfs. Wardens also got a good chance of surviving it as the shields absorb the Frag and/or Force Pulse.

BohnT wrote: »

The only ones who survived are magnbs as they can make good use of harness and cloak + they have access to minor maim,
magsorcs as they can shield through the burst
All others were forced to run a defensive set something which wasn't needed before (both my magdk and my magplar ran around without a dedicated defensive set)

You again conveniently forgot stamblades that also have access to cloak and can thus prevent the Rune Cage hitting them.
Also the Perma blockers are tanky enough to survive that combo. And plenty of builds have been running Heavy armor long before Sorcs started using Meteor-Rune Cage combo BECAUSE stamblades were bursting them down before they possibly had a chance to react. So don't put the heavy armor and defensive set meta on the magSorcs. That was introduced and caused by the stamblades.

BohnT wrote: »

The only class that has the luxury to play medium armor to its full strength is stamnb all others have to use impreg, brass or pariah in order to survive while losing so much damage and sustain by doing so that it's more benefical to run heavy with 2 offensive set.

Oh you mean like how you expect magicka builds to invest into stamina to dodge the continuous burst of stamblades? Or you mean like mag sorcs are forced to maximize magicka if we want to have a chance of staying alive, sacrificing regen and damage for it. Or do you mean like so many builds that were forced into Swod and Boards and / or perma blocking b/c of all the NB burst long before Rune Cage was even a thing? As I said, don't try to blame the Heavy Armor meta caused by stamina burst on mag sorcs.

BohnT wrote: »

It's not like heavy is very good atm the passives are mediocre and especially the sustain is weak while the damage is also lacky if you don't run 2 offensive sets or abuse some cheese.

See above

BohnT wrote: »

One last thing you assume people are only blocking or dodgeing when you talk about sustain but use skills just as often as you do and especially when talking about dodge builds there is always a gap between dodges because it's impossible to dodge all the time.

Funny, above you assumed people can always easily dodge NB burst. Now all of a sudden not even perma dodgers can dodge everything. Besides, there is also a gap between attacks. And just in case dodge costs are getting too high or stamina too low Nbs can always cloak or port through obstacles and 3 dimensionally to get out of line of sight.

And even if you manage to hit the NB occassionally with a Force Pulse or Frag, that won't kill the NB. That won't kill anybody for that matter. The only way you can kill somebody (assuming they can play their class) as a magSorc is when your entire burst combo hits. The only way your entire burst combo hits is if you can stun the target. And while you critize Rune Cage, you never explain how you expect sorcs to land their combo if their target can dodge the majority of their damage (Frag, Pulse/Reach, initial hit of Execute, heavy or light attacks of the Inferno Staff, light attacks of the Resto staff thus denying the enchantments to proc) if they cannot pin down their target.

BohnT wrote: »

What's not impossible is to stay inside your mines and try to get the reaches off once they finish their dodge roll.

What's not impossible is to dodge roll over the mines.
What's not impossible is to let the sorc rot behind his mines.
What's not impossible is to fear the sorc out of his mines.
What's not impossible is, and that might be shocking to hear for the NBs, to use cloak.


I am, however, not quite sure if you really got what my point was. I am not argueing that Meteor-Rune Cage is not a very strong combo and that it does not need adjustment. I am arguing that stamNBs are hypocrits and that magSorcs need a way to deal with perma dodgers if/when rune cage is nerfed - any build/class does for that matter. And yes, perma dodging stamblades is still a thing.


It's the hypocrisy that annoys me most tbh:
Sorcs are to blame for the heavy armor meta ... when the NBs are the cause of it.
A stun that is undogeable is OP ... if somebody else uses it. Why? Because I am dodging!
Sorc burst is too high, nerf it ... but if I as a stamblade can kill people before they can react after CC break then its fine.
Streaking with Scroll is OP ... but running faster than a horse is fine. Why? Because I am a NB!
1.5k to 3k damage on Rune Cage is OP ... but continously applying minor Maim and 50% slow with Fear is fine.

BohnT

Galarthor wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

It doesn't matter if something is telegraphed if they can't do anything about it in the first place.
It doesn't matter if i know that a meteor will smash the earth in 2 days or if i don't the result will be that everyone is dead then no matter what they do same with things that don't have counterplay.

I was referring to the new Rune Cage post-Update and how Fear will be even stronger now in comparision.
And it always had counterplay, though I agree it was more difficult for non-NBs.

BohnT wrote: »

As i said before the stuns on magdk and Stamnb are fine as they have no guaranteed hit afterwards.
The whole stamnb burst is dodgeable and blockable.
Magdk has an undodgeable ult the rest is blockable and dodgeable (except for the AoEs but they aren't a threat in the first place when you have more than 3k health when you get stunned)

1. They both put up way more sustain pressure than sorcs. Thus you are usually at lower health / shield strength when they stun you, which means they have to deal less damage during and right after the stun to actually kill you.

2. Permanently dodging and blocking stmblade attacks might be feasible for your stamina builds, but it is not for magicka builds.

BohnT wrote: »

The meteor combo is still uncounterable, you can time everything perfectly so rune cage and meteor hit right at the same time and no one can block and dodge at the same time meaning they eat the stun no matter what they do and then you can give them the frags, there's nothing they can do about it.

That's the equivalent to stamblade stunning sorc when shields are low / run out killing the sorc.

BohnT wrote: »

Also it's not fair to say "but stamnb can counter it" when everyone else just gets flat out removed from the game.
Medium armor builds and light armor builds went almost extinct the day sorcs started using rune cage simply because one sorc would kill them and there's nothing they can do about it.

Funny, NBs weren't complaining when they ran around in the proc sets and started the heavy armor meta back in the days. Back then they considered 1-GCD-kills from Stealth balanced. Now that they are facing something that can be countered a lot easier as a NB, they considere it all of a sudden OP and cry out for nerfs. Wardens also got a good chance of surviving it as the shields absorb the Frag and/or Force Pulse.

BohnT wrote: »

The only ones who survived are magnbs as they can make good use of harness and cloak + they have access to minor maim,
magsorcs as they can shield through the burst
All others were forced to run a defensive set something which wasn't needed before (both my magdk and my magplar ran around without a dedicated defensive set)

You again conveniently forgot stamblades that also have access to cloak and can thus prevent the Rune Cage hitting them.
Also the Perma blockers are tanky enough to survive that combo. And plenty of builds have been running Heavy armor long before Sorcs started using Meteor-Rune Cage combo BECAUSE stamblades were bursting them down before they possibly had a chance to react. So don't put the heavy armor and defensive set meta on the magSorcs. That was introduced and caused by the stamblades.

BohnT wrote: »

The only class that has the luxury to play medium armor to its full strength is stamnb all others have to use impreg, brass or pariah in order to survive while losing so much damage and sustain by doing so that it's more benefical to run heavy with 2 offensive set.

Oh you mean like how you expect magicka builds to invest into stamina to dodge the continuous burst of stamblades? Or you mean like mag sorcs are forced to maximize magicka if we want to have a chance of staying alive, sacrificing regen and damage for it. Or do you mean like so many builds that were forced into Swod and Boards and / or perma blocking b/c of all the NB burst long before Rune Cage was even a thing? As I said, don't try to blame the Heavy Armor meta caused by stamina burst on mag sorcs.

BohnT wrote: »

It's not like heavy is very good atm the passives are mediocre and especially the sustain is weak while the damage is also lacky if you don't run 2 offensive sets or abuse some cheese.

See above

BohnT wrote: »

One last thing you assume people are only blocking or dodgeing when you talk about sustain but use skills just as often as you do and especially when talking about dodge builds there is always a gap between dodges because it's impossible to dodge all the time.

Funny, above you assumed people can always easily dodge NB burst. Now all of a sudden not even perma dodgers can dodge everything. Besides, there is also a gap between attacks. And just in case dodge costs are getting too high or stamina too low Nbs can always cloak or port through obstacles and 3 dimensionally to get out of line of sight.

And even if you manage to hit the NB occassionally with a Force Pulse or Frag, that won't kill the NB. That won't kill anybody for that matter. The only way you can kill somebody (assuming they can play their class) as a magSorc is when your entire burst combo hits. The only way your entire burst combo hits is if you can stun the target. And while you critize Rune Cage, you never explain how you expect sorcs to land their combo if their target can dodge the majority of their damage (Frag, Pulse/Reach, initial hit of Execute, heavy or light attacks of the Inferno Staff, light attacks of the Resto staff thus denying the enchantments to proc) if they cannot pin down their target.

BohnT wrote: »

What's not impossible is to stay inside your mines and try to get the reaches off once they finish their dodge roll.

What's not impossible is to dodge roll over the mines.
What's not impossible is to let the sorc rot behind his mines.
What's not impossible is to fear the sorc out of his mines.
What's not impossible is, and that might be shocking to hear for the NBs, to use cloak.


I am, however, not quite sure if you really got what my point was. I am not argueing that Meteor-Rune Cage is not a very strong combo and that it does not need adjustment. I am arguing that stamNBs are hypocrits and that magSorcs need a way to deal with perma dodgers if/when rune cage is nerfed - any build/class does for that matter. And yes, perma dodging stamblades is still a thing.


It's the hypocrisy that annoys me most tbh:
Sorcs are to blame for the heavy armor meta ... when the NBs are the cause of it.
A stun that is undogeable is OP ... if somebody else uses it. Why? Because I am dodging!
Sorc burst is too high, nerf it ... but if I as a stamblade can kill people before they can react after CC break then its fine.
Streaking with Scroll is OP ... but running faster than a horse is fine. Why? Because I am a NB!
1.5k to 3k damage on Rune Cage is OP ... but continously applying minor Maim and 50% slow with Fear is fine.

I will not continue bringing up rational arguments, you don't want to see them, maybe because you are just a little biased as you seem to play magsorc only and not on the highest possible level as people like @Derra don't seem to have much problems with the oh so unkillable stamnbs.

I just say this much you are just as much of an hypocrite if not more than the people you accuse if you can't find the reasons why that is true you should reflect if you really are as unbiased as you think you are.

Derra

BohnT wrote: »

I will not continue bringing up rational arguments, you don't want to see them, maybe because you are just a little biased as you seem to play magsorc only and not on the highest possible level as people like @Derra don't seem to have much problems with the oh so unkillable stamnbs.

I just say this much you are just as much of an hypocrite if not more than the people you accuse if you can't find the reasons why that is true you should reflect if you really are as unbiased as you think you are.

I do have trouble killing stamNBs when they´re atleast decent on their class without runecage - but then i´m able to see that the NB is in the same position when looking at sorcs.

The classes defenses counter each others offense - which leads to a situation where they can only die when making grave mistakes or one opponent is a lot better than the other.

Galarthor

BohnT wrote: »

I will not continue bringing up rational arguments, you don't want to see them, maybe because you are just a little biased as you seem to play magsorc only and not on the highest possible level as people like @Derra don't seem to have much problems with the oh so unkillable stamnbs.

I just say this much you are just as much of an hypocrite if not more than the people you accuse if you can't find the reasons why that is true you should reflect if you really are as unbiased as you think you are.

I can make the same arguement. You completely ignore anything I said, failed to lay a good solution and blame stuff that was caused by you stamblades on the mag sorcs. I point out double standards and all you say is: well as long as it benefits NBs it's fine. A stamblade stunning a sorc when shields are low / running it is as dangerous as a magSorc rune caging a NB when meteor drops. If the sorc doesnt time his burst perfectly then the meteor alone won't kill the NB. And if the NB doesnt time the burst correctly based on the shiled strength / duration then he won't be able to kill the sorc. But you are completely biased and deny the latter b/c that makes life easier for you.

I say: give NBs counterplay to sorcs and sorcs counterplay to NBs.
You say: give NBs counterplay to sorcs, but giving sorcs counterplay to NBs woukd be OP.

Sound logic. Really!

But I agree with you ... there is no point in continuing this discussion.

The-Baconator

Everyone just needs to switch to crystal blast for a patch and abuse its AoE so ZOS will have no choice but to buff crystal frag in response.