Something needs to be done about PvP healbots. Specifically external zergs, not solo/small.

VaranisArano

Joy_Division wrote: »

"Ball groups" would be the main beneficiaries and thus become stronger. Because they can have dedicated healing specs to ensure everyone in that group receives the heal bonus and a dedicated spec to ensure those they are fighting get "desecrated". Ungrouped players simply do not have the resources or flexibility to ensure they always have both.

This is exactly the issue I have with most "Let's nerf the skills that let organized raids do really well." Because 9 times out of 10, its not the skills that let the large organized raids do well. Its their organization that lets them do things like run those specialized builds and adapt to changes - far better than any disorganized mass of ungrouped or casually grouped players can.

So, OP, if your goal is to ensure the dominance of organized raids over disorganized zergs even more than they already are, by all means, carry on. I strongly suspect it'll turn out as well as the "Just remove the AOE caps, that'll let us beat those organized raids!" idea did.

I'm gonna hazard a guess that empowering organized raids wasn't the end result you were hoping for...

ak_pvp

VaranisArano wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

"Ball groups" would be the main beneficiaries and thus become stronger. Because they can have dedicated healing specs to ensure everyone in that group receives the heal bonus and a dedicated spec to ensure those they are fighting get "desecrated". Ungrouped players simply do not have the resources or flexibility to ensure they always have both.

This is exactly the issue I have with most "Let's nerf the skills that let organized raids do really well." Because 9 times out of 10, its not the skills that let the large organized raids do well. Its their organization that lets them do things like run those specialized builds and adapt to changes - far better than any disorganized mass of ungrouped or casually grouped players can.

So, OP, if your goal is to ensure the dominance of organized raids over disorganized zergs even more than they already are, by all means, carry on. I strongly suspect it'll turn out as well as the "Just remove the AOE caps, that'll let us beat those organized raids!" idea did.

I'm gonna hazard a guess that empowering organized raids wasn't the end result you were hoping for...

The AoE cap change actually did though. Zergs had enough blasting power over the small groups and soloers they rolled over, but now smallman groups with spin2win can dismantle them a little better.

It in my eyes is a perfect example of what should happen. Since the mob can't get any benefit out of it unless they try or put effort in. Which is exactly what they should do with healbots, remove smart healing, so it takes effort to heal and the more people, the less effective your healing becomes due to the sheer size you have. (like AoE caps)

Ragnaroek93

No, healers suffered from enough nerfs and that's most likely the case because of all the rants from popular streamers who got angry that "healbots" ruined their 1vX. The only nerfs which were justified were Malubeth and vitality potions imo (and maybe heavy armor to some extend but that wasn't a healer only issue).

Healing and supporting your teammates is the niche which magplar is strong at and there the class really shines. They basically lack in almost everything else, don't take away the last reason to play a magplar.
Of course a group with a supporter should have an advantage over a group full of dds in a battleground, it's the same in other games like Dota, LoL, Overwatch etc. Everything else wouldn't make sense. Also there is nothing wrong with people who enjoy playing a supporter, in fact I have a lot of respect for them and always enjoy to team up with them.

Please stop pretending that other playstyles would take much more skill, ESO doesn't really have high skill ceiling. The only thing which I consider as impressive are the people who come up with new build ideas and set up new metas, everything else can be learned pretty easily.

Kikke

Omg... no? Healing is fine as is. Think there was a reason for defile nerfs, no?

Datthaw

Lol ok now I have heard it all.

"Screw that healer for healing. Next thing we have to do its nerf dps for dpsing. And wtf are those tanks doing, why are they able to tank." -op

Tiphis

I like the idea of smart healing, the issue is that most zerg healers use springs and to be honest the only skills that really would be affected would be bol and healing ward.

The idea of an outgoing heal debuff I also like, the issue is that major defile is everywhere, if the make minor defile and the minor heal debuff as common as major defile is now, such that the healers self healing is around the same, and 15% outgoing reduction, I’d like that. If however you have major defile as common as it is now combined with the major heal debuff, that would end up being an incredible nerf to healers self healing.

Healers also aren’t terribly common, they tend to be fairly easy to locate, templar ult heal once and everybody will know immediately who is the healer.

BNOC

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

No, healers suffered from enough nerfs and that's most likely the case because of all the rants from popular streamers who got angry that "healbots" ruined their 1vX. The only nerfs which were justified were Malubeth and vitality potions imo (and maybe heavy armor to some extend but that wasn't a healer only issue).

Healing and supporting your teammates is the niche which magplar is strong at and there the class really shines. They basically lack in almost everything else, don't take away the last reason to play a magplar.
Of course a group with a supporter should have an advantage over a group full of dds in a battleground, it's the same in other games like Dota, LoL, Overwatch etc. Everything else wouldn't make sense. Also there is nothing wrong with people who enjoy playing a supporter, in fact I have a lot of respect for them and always enjoy to team up with them.

Please stop pretending that other playstyles would take much more skill, ESO doesn't really have high skill ceiling. The only thing which I consider as impressive are the people who come up with new build ideas and set up new metas, everything else can be learned pretty easily.

Hold your horses - Some of us are still on max damage builds, killing it.
Healing is literally mind numbing to me.

Datthaw wrote: »

Lol ok now I have heard it all.

"Screw that healer for healing. Next thing we have to do its nerf dps for dpsing. And wtf are those tanks doing, why are they able to tank." -op

What do you mean? That's exactly what happens already...

Sorc does too much of this = a nerf for damage in one way or another - That applies to any class.

In other games there are counters for healers (That don't gimp you vs the rest) - As it stands, you literally would have to be against an absolute braindead player to kill them 2v1 or be running wet sets that just gimp you everywhere else.

I don't think there is a direct issue with healing, more so the zerg in general - It's too easy to sit back, take no damage and cast springs or whatever they're doing; the same way it's too easy to sit back, take no damage and hold heavy attacks with proc sets.

It's the cluster of below average and new players that's aren't punished accordingly rather than the healing imo.

ak_pvp

Datthaw wrote: »

Lol ok now I have heard it all.

"Screw that healer for healing. Next thing we have to do its nerf dps for dpsing. And wtf are those tanks doing, why are they able to tank." -op

PvP specifically, as I said PvE is fine. Its not healing, its healing at high effectiveness with low counters. Like DPS with high dps and low counters should be nerfed, which is exactly why sloads got nerfed.

Tiphis wrote: »

I like the idea of smart healing, the issue is that most zerg healers use springs and to be honest the only skills that really would be affected would be bol and healing ward.

The idea of an outgoing heal debuff I also like, the issue is that major defile is everywhere, if the make minor defile and the minor heal debuff as common as major defile is now, such that the healers self healing is around the same, and 15% outgoing reduction, I’d like that. If however you have major defile as common as it is now combined with the major heal debuff, that would end up being an incredible nerf to healers self healing.

Healers also aren’t terribly common, they tend to be fairly easy to locate, templar ult heal once and everybody will know immediately who is the healer.

The new debuff wouldn't affect self heals, only heals on other targets, defile would continue to affect self heals, but obviously be reduced since its way OP.

Datthaw

BNOC wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

No, healers suffered from enough nerfs and that's most likely the case because of all the rants from popular streamers who got angry that "healbots" ruined their 1vX. The only nerfs which were justified were Malubeth and vitality potions imo (and maybe heavy armor to some extend but that wasn't a healer only issue).

Healing and supporting your teammates is the niche which magplar is strong at and there the class really shines. They basically lack in almost everything else, don't take away the last reason to play a magplar.
Of course a group with a supporter should have an advantage over a group full of dds in a battleground, it's the same in other games like Dota, LoL, Overwatch etc. Everything else wouldn't make sense. Also there is nothing wrong with people who enjoy playing a supporter, in fact I have a lot of respect for them and always enjoy to team up with them.

Please stop pretending that other playstyles would take much more skill, ESO doesn't really have high skill ceiling. The only thing which I consider as impressive are the people who come up with new build ideas and set up new metas, everything else can be learned pretty easily.

Hold your horses - Some of us are still on max damage builds, killing it.
Healing is literally mind numbing to me.

Datthaw wrote: »

Lol ok now I have heard it all.

"Screw that healer for healing. Next thing we have to do its nerf dps for dpsing. And wtf are those tanks doing, why are they able to tank." -op

What do you mean? That's exactly what happens already...

Sorc does too much of this = a nerf for damage in one way or another - That applies to any class.

In other games there are counters for healers (That don't gimp you vs the rest) - As it stands, you literally would have to be against an absolute braindead player to kill them 2v1 or be running wet sets that just gimp you everywhere else.

I don't think there is a direct issue with healing, more so the zerg in general - It's too easy to sit back, take no damage and cast springs or whatever they're doing; the same way it's too easy to sit back, take no damage and hold heavy attacks with proc sets.

It's the cluster of below average and new players that's aren't punished accordingly rather than the healing imo.

Ummm...defile is the counter to healing. Everyone and thier brother has some form of defile now.

And I agree the argument is vs the zerg. I hear people say "smart healing" wtf I this, you have to aim where you heal? Ok....that nerfs the BoL small group players. You already have to aim to land springs which us what most if the zerg healer run. You could be upset about earthgore but again that's not healer problem thats a proc set problem. It just doesn't make any sense.

NBrookus

ak_pvp wrote: »

Healing =/= Easy brainless healing mate.

Have you ever tried healing a group large enough to need a dedicated healer in PVP? It's far from brainless. Good healers are priceless.

The super tanky heavy armor templar block casting BoL and surviving a while against several players isn't a very effective group healer any more than the super tanky heavy armor DPS does a lot of damage.

Datthaw

NBrookus wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Healing =/= Easy brainless healing mate.

Have you ever tried healing a group large enough to need a dedicated healer in PVP? It's far from brainless. Good healers are priceless.

The super tanky heavy armor templar block casting BoL and surviving a while against several players isn't a very effective group healer any more than the super tanky heavy armor DPS does a lot of damage.

It's boils down to people being elitist imo. I feel that may be a harsh word in this context but it's in the same line as alot of other complaints I hear.

This boils down to, I can't kill these couple players I am better than because of the healer. Let's nerf thier healer.

jaws343

If you think smart healing with BOL is what allows a pvp healer to keep a zerg alive, you probably have never actually tried to heal a zerg or any group for that matter. BOL spam only happens (if it is even happening) when a healer is pressured themselves and are just trying to hold out a few more seconds for help. If a healer is spamming BOL, they are probably already or close to dying.

A good healer is dropping healing springs and keeping mutagen up on players. Mutagen is not a smart heal BTW. it picks random targets when you cast it. BOL is only used in zergs for extremely low health targets and even then it doesn't just magically go to the correct one.

I kept an entire defensive force alive in a breach at BRK on my trials healer (not built for PVP) against a full zerg by mostly spamming healing springs and keeping extended ritual up. Good healers are going to keep healing. Nerfing BOL again isn't going to bring to ceiling down, it's just going to ruin the skill in the already niche situations it is useful in.

ak_pvp

jaws343 wrote: »

If you think smart healing with BOL is what allows a pvp healer to keep a zerg alive, you probably have never actually tried to heal a zerg or any group for that matter. BOL spam only happens (if it is even happening) when a healer is pressured themselves and are just trying to hold out a few more seconds for help. If a healer is spamming BOL, they are probably already or close to dying.

A good healer is dropping healing springs and keeping mutagen up on players. Mutagen is not a smart heal BTW. it picks random targets when you cast it. BOL is only used in zergs for extremely low health targets and even then it doesn't just magically go to the correct one.

I kept an entire defensive force alive in a breach at BRK on my trials healer (not built for PVP) against a full zerg by mostly spamming healing springs and keeping extended ritual up. Good healers are going to keep healing. Nerfing BOL again isn't going to bring to ceiling down, it's just going to ruin the skill in the already niche situations it is useful in.

IIRC mutagen is a smart heal, it picks randomly when everyone is high health. And even still, it should go to the nearest two that you aim at so you can't just easily up the .
BoL wouldn't be nerfed, can keep using it as you want if you are in a smaller group you already face the target for things like springs. That along with other easy heals won't just go to the person lowest.

Speaking of your healing, wasn't very hard was it. No danger hiding behind a group and no real counter besides being fully overran. Healing springs isn't that bad since you have to actually place it on targets areas and it can be walked from.

NBrookus wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Healing =/= Easy brainless healing mate.

Have you ever tried healing a group large enough to need a dedicated healer in PVP? It's far from brainless. Good healers are priceless.

The super tanky heavy armor templar block casting BoL and surviving a while against several players isn't a very effective group healer any more than the super tanky heavy armor DPS does a lot of damage.

Organized vs larger groups nah, might be harder their but they can manage. The idiot zerglings, yes. Why do you think its what people used to recommend to get AP quick and easy. Spam mutagen and heal springs and you are set. Not hard at all, and near no danger. Defiles won't do jack to your healing output and you don't even have to look much. Heavy armour BoL spammers aren't too bad, but still quite easy and effective because they can smart heal whoever needs it.

I am against any sort of counterless over easy brainless playstyles for PvP, healbotting is just one of them.

VaranisArano

ak_pvp wrote: »

Why do you think its what people used to recommend to get AP quick and easy. Spam mutagen and heal springs and you are set. Not hard at all, and near no danger.

I don't recommend that new magicka players to PVP spam mutagen and healing springs because its brainlessly easy.

I recommend that new magicka players to PVP spam mutagen and healing springs because its the easiest thing for a new player to do that gets them decent AP without having to invest a ton of time into getting good at PVP.

Players who are new to PVP need all the help they can get. I know, I was one. I totally spammed mutagen and healing springs when I was new because that was all I could do effectively! If I tried to fight, I died quick. If I tried to take a resource, I was lucky if the guards didn't kill me. But I could follow a group and heal! That was right at my extremely noobish skill level. Oh, and even spamming healing springs and mutagen wasn't brainlessly easy, NOPE! I had to develop my battlefield awareness or I'd get killed right quick, something that's stood me in good stead as I've continued to PVP.


Now, I've gotten substantially better from that starting point. I heal a lot more effectively than I did then, and I can solo resources, and I've can actually kill other players now and not die in a few seconds the moment an enemy focuses me. PVP is a ton of fun, and I've never lost sight of the steep learning curve that PVP requires.

But that all took time and practice. That all took a lot more time and practice than some new player who only wants AP for Warhorn is ever going to invest in PVP. So that's why I recommend that new magicka players spam healing springs and mutagen - because its accessible for a brand new to PVP player in a way that most other PVP skills aren't.

But apparently, Divines forbid that there be a playstyle somewhat accessible to players who are brand new to PVP who want to heal.

Stibbons

Ball run tactics is just plain stupid and wvw design flaw. It does not basically no skill to tailgate crown. Sure many people want to go in discord to listen very carefully what button to press and being sure they stray more than 1 meter from crown This game does not have body block so you cannot do real tactics.

Xsorus

Think healing is op now, wait till after the next patch..

Hence why i brought it up on the PTS

People don't get how much Defile keeps it in check right now...they will next patch.

chesspilgrim

it is cool that everyone has an opinion. what is not very cool is suggesting that some class or role is ruining your game experience. in my opinion, the problem with zergs is the zerg mentality of those players. zos cannot nerf that easily nor directly. it is a large game with a varied player base, and changes aimed at player classes or roles have very wide ranging effects.

if cyrodil is supposed to be representative of open warfare, then it is not a surprise that it is often difficult, annoying or outright infuriating, and produces a grab-bag of successes and failures. that is a part of the game. complaining about “healbots” does not change zerg mentality. any changes made to healers will not surely effect any significant changes to the zerg mentality. new players, lazy players, and cowardly players will still seek out the largest groups in which to hide. i did not say that all players in zergs are one of those three types, but many zerg-surfers are of those three types. no matter how loudly someone complains about “healbots”, the herd mentality moves on. by the way, i think it is fair to assume that there are plenty of each class and role accounted for in any given zerg. pointing out healers is poor form, in my opinion.

by the way, killing everyone is not the only goal in cyrodil. it isn't the only goal in battlegrounds. maybe for some, or even many, the idea is “kill ‘em all”. great album, but not a great mmorpg game concept. for me, the primary pvp goal is to keep my side’s players alive to keep fighting so that they can accomplish their objectives. if i do my job well, then why should i be bothered if the other team is bent out of shape because it could not kill enough of the players on my side? if the only correct way to play were to kill everyone, then certainly the correct response would be: “nerf the healers”. but, that begs the question: why does the game have healers?

if the problem is player mentality, then the game might benefit from a design change. if you don’t like zergs, the cyrodil map is pretty big. take whatever size group that seems appropriate to you, and go make something happen somewhere else. if enough groups of 8-12 players were moving around the map, and having success, then possibly the zerg minded would have some incentive to try it out, and the zerg mentality might decline. i would be in favor of significant ap bonuses to groups (meaning the absolute total of attackers) of 4 or fewer that take a resource. or, just for example, an ap bonus to a group of 12 or fewer that take a castle. in response, the same bonuses should apply to small groups that defend those resources or castles. it is just one possibility, but something that might effectively decrease the zerg effect.

Jeremy

Koolio wrote: »

BoL nerfs so far already

Cost (Twice I believe)
Major mending removed
Third heal removed
Second heal nerfed 30%
Los
180 degrees


What more do you want.

@Joy_Division should know if there are anymore or if these are wrong

Agreed. Breath of Life has already been nerfed to hell.

Frankly I'm better off in Cyordil spamming sweeps as a healer to keep myself alive than I am wasting huge chunks of Magicka for an unimpressive heal. It might still be good for "healbots" hiding safely behind an infantry line I guess. But that's about it in my opinion.