Something needs to be done about PvP healbots. Specifically external zergs, not solo/small.

ak_pvp

Read first pls: You know how I made a post about tonks a while ago. Well the reason they are so hated are non your usual DK/warden/templar permablock and walk round a tower solo doing nothing solo style tanks. Its the healers who tank to the fullest taking the weaknesses in stead, whilst actually impact fights heavily.
Fixing the issue of zerg healing would allow those who use it fairly in small group or solo to not be repetitively nerfed. ZOS thinks they are bad, but for some reason they instead just directly nerf classes like with the issue of templar losing maj mending hurting the solo templars, not the healbot ones who can spec for ONLY heals

Its way too easy for players with low skill [snip] to be one, and be carried by them. It is what allows zergs to be so strong and creates a lot of players with low skill and self reliability that run builds where you can toss out any defense in exchange to be able to run niche high damage builds safely. It can completely decide a BG match because good luck killing someone who has a dedicated healer running close. If we can change the ease/effectiveness of PvP healers, then those who still choose to play it would be able to be effective and should gain good rewards for it.

These healers however are very sparsely targetted or affected by direct nerfs. This is because all the tank damage and survivability nerfs and debuffs don't matter to them. They have no damage anyway to be lowered or debuffed, and can hide from defiles within their group which would only affect heals on themselves.

Solutions for PvP only (Don't get tilted my PvE bois)

Turn of smart healing: This would be the absolute best method I can think of to fairly balance healers. Keeps their potential the same, but lowers the ease,
Instead of spamming BoL or mutagen or FOO or whatever healbot skill to anyone low within 180° they'd have to aim it, very much so like an attack or would simply target themselves. This stops people getting randomly healed for free at low health, makes healing a more active duty and makes squishy DPSs have to invest into some defense as they can't rely on the healers. The bigger the group, the harder to heal the right person. Add a friendly tab target option too so you can target certain people better. It also allows you to use your own heals when needed.

Create a debuff that lowers outgoing heals: This would match mending much the same way that defile matches vitality. Call it something like minor/major desecration.
Mending would be changed to only your external heals. Vitality kept as only your own heals. It is a fair change that nerfs those super high heal stackers or both vit too without nerfing the average build. Some things would have to be changed (fragmented and warden passive for example) to gift both or changed to vitality instead to keep it functionally the same. And wap some of the current defile sources to either or both defile/desecrate (Won't double dip)

There is however the nuclear option which I don't like personally. Blanket lowered healing for allies but not yourself. It works, but it is one of those things like AoE caps that unfairly hurts playstyles without any counterplay or tactical building like the other changes offer (Tab target or purge to get around the other possibility)

[Edited to remove inapropriate comment.]

MalagenR

The ridiculousness of these forums always astounds me.

kadar

Buff Defile. Wait wat... Yas, buff Defile. IDK.

.____.

ak_pvp

MalagenR wrote: »

The ridiculousness of these forums always astounds me.

oof, not even a minute after posting. I wonder who didn't read the post.

"Only elitist cry babies cry about zergs. Good players don't cry on forums. Been like this for 15+ years." Noseying around a little bit. You are almost definitely one of those low skilled players who rely on them aren't you?

mursie

not sure I'm understanding the problem here.

let's recap:

This is a team based game. WIth archetypes tank / dps / healer.
The BG's for instanced pvp have teams of 4 facing off.
One team brings a healer and 3 dps
One team elects to bring 4 dps.

the team with 4 dps can't beat the team with 3 dps and one healer.

so - nerf healing?

think i got the recap correct. now - if you are the team with 4 dps.. have you tried swapping one to healing? is that beneath you? do you just want no healers in game? should this just be only dps?

Koolio

BoL nerfs so far already

Cost (Twice I believe)
Major mending removed
Third heal removed
Second heal nerfed 30%
Los
180 degrees


What more do you want.

@Joy_Division should know if there are anymore or if these are wrong

ak_pvp

mursie wrote: »

not sure I'm understanding the problem here.

let's recap:

This is a team based game. WIth archetypes tank / dps / healer.
The BG's for instanced pvp have teams of 4 facing off.
One team brings a healer and 3 dps
One team elects to bring 4 dps.

the team with 4 dps can't beat the team with 3 dps and one healer.

so - nerf healing?

think i got the recap correct. now - if you are the team with 4 dps.. have you tried swapping one to healing? is that beneath you? do you just want no healers in game? should this just be only dps?

Healing =/= Easy brainless healing mate.

You can still heal. But like everyone else, you get debuffed and countered.

Mintaka5 wrote: »

This thread was created by a cry baby DK most likely. Let's just make PvP DK only will that help you out.

What does my class have to do with it? You can still heal yourself just as well. But you can't heal others with as ease. Templar and warden need buffs still no doubt, you can find me on the rep discords if you don't believe me. But zergling healbots who do nothing skillfully don't.

Koolio wrote: »

BoL nerfs so far already

Cost (Twice I believe)
Major mending removed
Third heal removed
Second heal nerfed 30%
Los
180 degrees


What more do you want.

@Joy_Division should know if there are anymore or if these are wrong

You know this isn't a nerf BoL thread mate? Templar self healing would be ideally buffed, that was my entire point because since healbots exist and exist so easily, templar and tank builds get nerfed incorrectly.

Strider__Roshin

I really like the idea of smart healing. Healing in this game is way too easy and boring. Smart healing might actually make it interesting.

Mintaka5

Daus wrote: »

Mintaka5 wrote: »

This thread was created by a cry baby DK most likely. Let's just make PvP DK only will that help you out.

People like you are what's wrong with the forums. Insult the person rather than make an argument.

I have an argument. Stop nerfing everything but DKs. I don't know what game this guy is playing but honestly my heals aren't that OP. Just another whiner, who wants his class enhanced or everyone else's nerfed.

Glory

TTK from certain classes is at the lowest in a long time, and damage output is ridiculous. It is not surprising to see that healing is also at an extremely high level.

What you should really advocate for is to have both damage and healing brought back towards the middle, otherwise you are calling for healing nerfs when there are people getting 2-shot by insert-ultimate-here + skill.

Sure, it's frustrating to see someone get pocket healed when you're fighting them, but it's equally as frustrating to not be able to react to ridiculous incoming damage.

Also, I find the first part of your signature ironic, as having reliable heals is one of the core components of 'stand-your-ground' play styles, which have been noted to be getting the short end of the stick lately.

ak_pvp

Mintaka5 wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Mintaka5 wrote: »

This thread was created by a cry baby DK most likely. Let's just make PvP DK only will that help you out.

People like you are what's wrong with the forums. Insult the person rather than make an argument.

I have an argument. Stop nerfing everything but DKs. I don't know what game this guy is playing but honestly my heals aren't that OP. Just another whiner, who wants his class enhanced or everyone else's nerfed.

Do us a favor. Read the note I put. Its not a nerf plar/whatever class. Its a nerf zerg heal so that templar can be buffed. Don't believe me, read my last tonk thread where I say the stand your ground classes, templar, DK and warden need serious buffs.

Jeezye

As this is a teambased game your demanded nerf strikes against the game concept. Healers are there to be a meaningful part of a team, and if you can't kill the enemy team because of their healer you should get inspired by him rather asking for nerfs.

I do understand your standpoint, coming from heavy solo and small scale pvp experience, but healers are part of the game and should be. What they COULD change indeed is the scaling of heals, because right now its too easy to build a super tanky setup and dish out tons of healings. I think, by choosing to be a full heal, you should need to invest into it and give up tankiness along the process.

Those are changes however that are never gonna happen and there are much higher pain points in pvp atm.

Thogard

Is this your first MMO? Healers are far less necessary in this game than other MMOs I’ve played, but if this is your first MMO I can see why you’d think what you think. I guess my perspective is that coming from other games, healers here are less powerful than usual.

MalagenR

ak_pvp wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

The ridiculousness of these forums always astounds me.

oof, not even a minute after posting. I wonder who didn't read the post.

"Only elitist cry babies cry about zergs. Good players don't cry on forums. Been like this for 15+ years." Noseying around a little bit. You are almost definitely one of those low skilled players who rely on them aren't you?

I mean I'd probably drop you and I'm not even max CP.

DeadlyRecluse

[snip]

ak_pvp wrote: »

Create a debuff that lowers outgoing heals: This would match mending much the same way that defile matches vitality. Call it something like minor/major desecration.

...that's actually a pretty cool idea. Especially if it was a relatively rare debuff (i.e. no Durok's style or similar AOE application) and had to be intentionally applied to healers via a single target skill, creating more defined "healer dive" role (which already exists, but this would but this would really let people specialize in focusing healers). IMO, defile would been to be heavily adjusted to compensate (or mending/vitality made a little more available), but it's a cool idea.

[Edited to remove quoted content]

ak_pvp

MalagenR wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

The ridiculousness of these forums always astounds me.

oof, not even a minute after posting. I wonder who didn't read the post.

"Only elitist cry babies cry about zergs. Good players don't cry on forums. Been like this for 15+ years." Noseying around a little bit. You are almost definitely one of those low skilled players who rely on them aren't you?

I mean I'd probably drop you and I'm not even max CP.

No, you'd bring your pocket healer, and neither of us would die. If you come alone, (OW build, no duel only) you'd get dropped and bagged.

MalagenR

ak_pvp wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

The ridiculousness of these forums always astounds me.

oof, not even a minute after posting. I wonder who didn't read the post.

"Only elitist cry babies cry about zergs. Good players don't cry on forums. Been like this for 15+ years." Noseying around a little bit. You are almost definitely one of those low skilled players who rely on them aren't you?

I mean I'd probably drop you and I'm not even max CP.

No, you'd bring your pocket healer, and neither of us would die. If you come alone, (OW build, no duel only) you'd get dropped and bagged.

Sure, you on PC or PS4? I'm on PS4, if you are also we can make it happen and post the results here for everyone to see.

Joy_Division

Koolio wrote: »

BoL nerfs so far already

Cost (Twice I believe)
Major mending removed
Third heal removed
Second heal nerfed 30%
Los
180 degrees


What more do you want.

@Joy_Division should know if there are anymore or if these are wrong

That's the start of it. Other relevant passives in Restoring Light also got nerfed that have made BoL a shadow of what it once was.

I'm not sure a productive conversation can be had with the OP's obvious distaste and bias for a legitimate play-style. Has no problem mocking "healbots," deeming it over-simplified, intoducing additional counters, calling for radical changes and yet at the same time made a post the other day trying to tell everyone that playing a stand your ground class is too hard, been too nerfed, and apparently is much harder than duct-taping down the block-key.

Because it's totally fair to demean a play-style and call for blanket nerfs and then get bent out of shape when your own playstyle, arguably just as oversimplified, receives the same treatment.

Here's a little newsflash: ESO is not an intricate-complex-in depth tactical PvP game. It isn't and was never meant to be. It's bear & pretzels. And that's perfectly fine. Bear & Pretzel game can be incredibly fun. So everything is easy in this game: blocking, healng, DPs. It's fine.

But apparently "healbots" are the cancer of ESO and not the overly-simplified job of DPSing in a "ball group." Because wearing Vicious Death and gap closing with Destro ultimate active is so intellectually and motor-skill demanding.

VaranisArano

Given that Cyrodiil PVP was designed around large groups of 8 to 24 players, the current tooltip still says groups of 2 to 24 players, and the objective based nature of Cyrodiil absolutely favors large groups of organized players...

I'm not seeing how healers in large organized groups are a problem in that dynamic. Seems to me like that's a natural outgrowth of how the game is designed.

On the other hand, its the large organized groups that always adapt the best to new changes in the game, so I'm not so sure that your suggestions would have quite the impact you think they will. Healers in large organized raids will adapt, and far better than anyone in a less organized group will. First, a good portion of the heals in this game are already AOEs that require some degree of aiming. Good luck changing that when ZOS wants to balance PVP and PVE together. Second, the people this is really going to hurt are the disorganized zergs where PUG healers have to heal people not in group with them. That creates a situation where the large organized raids are even more dominant because unlike their disorganized opponents, they'll actually get heals from their healers on a regular basis.

ZOS_Ragnar

We have removed some comments and made some edits to remove inappropriate comments. Please be more mindful of what you are posting in the future.

Marcus684

Tl:dr “As a solo/small-man DK I want to face tank zergs of low skill players and kill them all, but someone keeps healing them and I die. Nerf healing”. As a DK main, I’m a little embarrassed by the small number of very vocal DKs on the forums that constantly call for buffs for DKs and nerfs for everyone else.

Strider__Roshin

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Its way too easy for players with low skill/chromosome count

Congrats, you're needlessly offensive!

ak_pvp wrote: »

Create a debuff that lowers outgoing heals: This would match mending much the same way that defile matches vitality. Call it something like minor/major desecration.

...that's actually a pretty cool idea. Especially if it was a relatively rare debuff (i.e. no Durok's style or similar AOE application) and had to be intentionally applied to healers via a single target skill, creating more defined "healer dive" role (which already exists, but this would but this would really let people specialize in focusing healers). IMO, defile would been to be heavily adjusted to compensate (or mending/vitality made a little more available), but it's a cool idea.

Lol honestly the chromosome comment bothered me. Not because it was offensive, but because an organism's number of chromosomes is independent of its intelligence. After all, there are butterflies that have 10x more chromosomes than us, and I don't see them designing rockets. But that's the science major in me lol.

Minno

Koolio wrote: »

BoL nerfs so far already

Cost (Twice I believe)
Major mending removed
Third heal removed
Second heal nerfed 30%
Los
180 degrees


What more do you want.

@Joy_Division should know if there are anymore or if these are wrong

Crit DMG modifier not impacting healing.

ak_pvp

Joy_Division wrote: »

Koolio wrote: »

BoL nerfs so far already

Cost (Twice I believe)
Major mending removed
Third heal removed
Second heal nerfed 30%
Los
180 degrees


What more do you want.

@Joy_Division should know if there are anymore or if these are wrong

That's the start of it. Other relevant passives in Restoring Light also got nerfed that have made BoL a shadow of what it once was.

I'm not sure a productive conversation can be had with the OP's obvious distaste and bias for a legitimate play-style. Has no problem mocking healbots, deeming it over-simplified, intoducing additional counters, calling for radical changes and yet at the same time made a post the other day trying to tell everyone that playing a stand your ground class is too hard, been too nerfed, and apparently is much harder than duct-taping down the block-key.

Because it's totally fair to demean a play-style and call for blanket nerfs and then get bent out of shape when your own playstyle, arguably just as oversimplified, receives the same treatment.

Here's a little newsflash: ESO is not an intricate-complex-in depth tactical PvP game. It isn't and was never meant to be. It's bear & pretzels. And that's perfectly fine. Bear & Pretzel game can be incredibly fun. So everything is easy in this game: blocking, healng, DPs. It's fine.

But apparently "healbots" are the cancer of ESO and not the brain-dead job of DPSing in a "ball group" Because wearing Vicious Death and gap closing with Destro ultimate active is so intellectually and motor-skill demanding.

You, @Joy_Division , should know exactly what the issue of healbots have done to temps. Defile meta being one of them that doesn't work. The unnecessary nerfs to classes since ZOS can't separate the bad from the normal. Take this for example. It is super hard to play a templar or DK stand your ground solo after block/heal/whatever nerfs. But within the ball of a zerg it is incredibly easy and powerful.

You also know the difference between a legitamate playstyle (Tonks, smaller healers, DPS, and non viable overperforming playstyles, megatonks, healbots, and counterless instakills) The counters that they put in hurts the smaller players who already are at a disadvantage and glosses over the larger problems.

So what happens, people say: Oh templar/DK/warden is too strong because of the place they overperform. But the devs don't target that places do they? Instead they blanket nerf it so that the tough playstyle gets tougher, and the easier one remains. Read the changes. Non of them kill healers, the one that did I stated would be bad. It would however uncap certain classes from the potential OP areas by targetting that directly, and allowing them to reinstate buffs to classes. For instance the mending buff was removed because of the maluplar healbot era. Heavily hurting temp when defiles came around. But if they add it back as vitality+mending, (external heal+internal heal) they can change some defiles to desecrates (external heal debuff) and tadaa, you fix two birds with one stone.

Exactly the same happened to sorc didn't it this patch. Super easy to play rune/wrath behind a ballgroup, but now rune for some players is near non viable with nothing back because the groups will abuse it.

OrphanHelgen

I played non stop pvp for 10 days, and I barely saw any healers. People died on rams, oils and what not, it was like once or twice a day I saw a siege shield. No purges nothing, group was even saying looking for healer for group.
But then again, maybe it was just the event, I don't know how it is outside event since I usually don't pvp.

ak_pvp

The_Outsider wrote: »

Buff Defile. Wait wat... Yas, buff Defile. IDK.

.____.

To elaborate, no. Don't buff defile, and don't nerf self healing any more. Buff it in fact.

Nerf (add counterplay) to the group healing that defile skips over, so that classes heavy on healing can heal small group and themselves better without further buffing the zerg problem that ESO has.

Ragnarock41

Both healing and defile are sitting in a weird spot right now. Healbots are kind of immune to defile which is problematic. Especially in outnumbered fights where a Bol can completely negate your burst. It feels really effortless to play a healer in PvP.

The problem is probably the smart heals with 180 degree cone. As long as you're not turning your ass to the fight you're gonna heal the right person. I'm not here to cry for nerfs, but I have to say that healers are too good at shutting down Dks and other dot builds. But especially DKs.

MalagenR

NB's are good at shutting down Sorc's.....see what I did there?

Strider__Roshin

MalagenR wrote: »

NB's are good at shutting down Sorc's.....see what I did there?

Magsorcs are better at shutting down stamblades rather than the opposite.

Joy_Division

ak_pvp wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Koolio wrote: »

BoL nerfs so far already

Cost (Twice I believe)
Major mending removed
Third heal removed
Second heal nerfed 30%
Los
180 degrees


What more do you want.

@Joy_Division should know if there are anymore or if these are wrong

That's the start of it. Other relevant passives in Restoring Light also got nerfed that have made BoL a shadow of what it once was.

I'm not sure a productive conversation can be had with the OP's obvious distaste and bias for a legitimate play-style. Has no problem mocking healbots, deeming it over-simplified, intoducing additional counters, calling for radical changes and yet at the same time made a post the other day trying to tell everyone that playing a stand your ground class is too hard, been too nerfed, and apparently is much harder than duct-taping down the block-key.

Because it's totally fair to demean a play-style and call for blanket nerfs and then get bent out of shape when your own playstyle, arguably just as oversimplified, receives the same treatment.

Here's a little newsflash: ESO is not an intricate-complex-in depth tactical PvP game. It isn't and was never meant to be. It's bear & pretzels. And that's perfectly fine. Bear & Pretzel game can be incredibly fun. So everything is easy in this game: blocking, healng, DPs. It's fine.

But apparently "healbots" are the cancer of ESO and not the brain-dead job of DPSing in a "ball group" Because wearing Vicious Death and gap closing with Destro ultimate active is so intellectually and motor-skill demanding.

You, @Joy_Division , should know exactly what the issue of healbots have done to temps. Defile meta being one of them that doesn't work. The unnecessary nerfs to classes since ZOS can't separate the bad from the normal. Take this for example. It is super hard to play a templar or DK stand your ground solo after block/heal/whatever nerfs. But within the ball of a zerg it is incredibly easy and powerful.

You also know the difference between a legitamate playstyle (Tonks, smaller healers, DPS, and non viable overperforming playstyles, megatonks, healbots, and counterless instakills) The counters that they put in hurts the smaller players who already are at a disadvantage and glosses over the larger problems.

So what happens, people say: Oh templar/DK/warden is too strong because of the place they overperform. But the devs don't target that places do they? Instead they blanket nerf it so that the tough playstyle gets tougher, and the easier one remains. Read the changes. Non of them kill healers, the one that did I stated would be bad. It would however uncap certain classes from the potential OP areas by targetting that directly, and allowing them to reinstate buffs to classes. For instance the mending buff was removed because of the maluplar healbot era. Heavily hurting temp when defiles came around. But if they add it back as vitality+mending, (external heal+internal heal) they can change some defiles to desecrates (external heal debuff) and tadaa, you fix two birds with one stone.

Exactly the same happened to sorc didn't it this patch. Super easy to play rune/wrath behind a ballgroup, but now rune for some players is near non viable with nothing back because the groups will abuse it.

Yes, I know exactly. The many posts such as yours and especially the crusade-like rants of a prominent streamer have prompted Zenimax to neuter the healing capability of my class. And yet, here we are again, still complaining about "healbots." I'm looking forward to the 8th nerf to BoL. I can't wait.

Yes, I know the differences between "legit" play-styles and hiding in a zerg. But I also know it's not realistic to have Vicious Death destro bombing nightblades on easy-mode and then demand healers to go through the sort of convoluted tactics you want them too just to put out a heal on a one of the 8 players who just blow up at the same time. You don't like smart healing? OK, maybe healers don't like 360 degree blocking that makes zero sacrifice to how strong offensive skills are.

Yes, Zenimax tends to target the lowest common denominator and blanket nerfs. Which is why I don't find rants particularly useful. The more people get into an uproar about "healbots" what follows is another nerf to BoL and thus making it even more absurdly difficult to play the very sort of style that you want to promote.

As to your question what would happen in ZOS gave me back Major Mending and introduced this "desecrate" debuff, I can list 3 scenarios, all of which would happen:

1. The standard "OMG look at my leet damage!" NB/Sorcerer would not use the tool available to them, come to these forums complaining about invincible healbots, which would then prompt ZOS to again remove the Major Memding (while keeping in the "desecrate")
2. The intelligent player who actually knows the games mechanics, would do exactly what they are doing now: using overtuned CP/gear enabled anti-healing measure to completely destroy the only defensive tool I have. Now I'll have to contend with two of them instead of just one.
3. "Ball groups" would be the main beneficiaries and thus become stronger. Because they can have dedicated healing specs to ensure everyone in that group receives the heal bonus and a dedicated spec to ensure those they are fighting get "desecrated". Ungrouped players simply do not have the resources or flexibility to ensure they always have both.

The game at its core has mechanics that are easy to learn and the game is such that players can find relative safety and zerg-surf. I'm fine with that. OK, this means I'm going to get Rune Cage+Meteored, multiple Jesus Beams spammed, and Xv1 stealth sniped, etc. It's going to happen in such a bear & pretzels game. What makes up for this is that when you do corner the Xv1ers such they do not have the security of their zerg, they get absolutely destroyed, the "easy" approach absolutely helps here as it is not a convoluted process to kill them (unless. of course, you are a masochist and play a magplar), and can achieve things that they are convinced you macro or use CE. That's ESO. It's always been the charm of the game.

But when people complain, get in an uproar, says things are too strong, etc., what has happened without fail over the past 4 years is that we all have been hit with nerfs, which has made the "reward" part of trashing Xv1ers more and more difficult.

So I am of the opinion that over-exaggerations and demeaning any play-style falls into whole saying of "he who lives in glass houses" and are counterproductive to improving the game.

ak_pvp

Joy_Division wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Koolio wrote: »

BoL nerfs so far already

Cost (Twice I believe)
Major mending removed
Third heal removed
Second heal nerfed 30%
Los
180 degrees


What more do you want.

@Joy_Division should know if there are anymore or if these are wrong

That's the start of it. Other relevant passives in Restoring Light also got nerfed that have made BoL a shadow of what it once was.

I'm not sure a productive conversation can be had with the OP's obvious distaste and bias for a legitimate play-style. Has no problem mocking healbots, deeming it over-simplified, intoducing additional counters, calling for radical changes and yet at the same time made a post the other day trying to tell everyone that playing a stand your ground class is too hard, been too nerfed, and apparently is much harder than duct-taping down the block-key.

Because it's totally fair to demean a play-style and call for blanket nerfs and then get bent out of shape when your own playstyle, arguably just as oversimplified, receives the same treatment.

Here's a little newsflash: ESO is not an intricate-complex-in depth tactical PvP game. It isn't and was never meant to be. It's bear & pretzels. And that's perfectly fine. Bear & Pretzel game can be incredibly fun. So everything is easy in this game: blocking, healng, DPs. It's fine.

But apparently "healbots" are the cancer of ESO and not the brain-dead job of DPSing in a "ball group" Because wearing Vicious Death and gap closing with Destro ultimate active is so intellectually and motor-skill demanding.

You, @Joy_Division , should know exactly what the issue of healbots have done to temps. Defile meta being one of them that doesn't work. The unnecessary nerfs to classes since ZOS can't separate the bad from the normal. Take this for example. It is super hard to play a templar or DK stand your ground solo after block/heal/whatever nerfs. But within the ball of a zerg it is incredibly easy and powerful.

You also know the difference between a legitamate playstyle (Tonks, smaller healers, DPS, and non viable overperforming playstyles, megatonks, healbots, and counterless instakills) The counters that they put in hurts the smaller players who already are at a disadvantage and glosses over the larger problems.

So what happens, people say: Oh templar/DK/warden is too strong because of the place they overperform. But the devs don't target that places do they? Instead they blanket nerf it so that the tough playstyle gets tougher, and the easier one remains. Read the changes. Non of them kill healers, the one that did I stated would be bad. It would however uncap certain classes from the potential OP areas by targetting that directly, and allowing them to reinstate buffs to classes. For instance the mending buff was removed because of the maluplar healbot era. Heavily hurting temp when defiles came around. But if they add it back as vitality+mending, (external heal+internal heal) they can change some defiles to desecrates (external heal debuff) and tadaa, you fix two birds with one stone.

Exactly the same happened to sorc didn't it this patch. Super easy to play rune/wrath behind a ballgroup, but now rune for some players is near non viable with nothing back because the groups will abuse it.

Yes, I know exactly. The many posts such as yours and especially the crusade-like rants of a prominent streamer have prompted Zenimax to neuter the healing capability of my class. And yet, here we are again, still complaining about "healbots." I'm looking forward to the 8th nerf to BoL. I can't wait.

Yes, I know the differences between "legit" play-styles and hiding in a zerg. But I also know it's not realistic to have Vicious Death destro bombing nightblades on easy-mode and then demand healers to go through the sort of convoluted tactics you want them too just to put out a heal on a one of the 8 players who just blow up at the same time. You don't like smart healing? OK, maybe healers don't like 360 degree blocking that makes zero sacrifice to how strong offensive skills are.

Yes, Zenimax tends to target the lowest common denominator and blanket nerfs. Which is why I don't find rants particularly useful. The more people get into an uproar about "healbots" what follows is another nerf to BoL and thus making it even more absurdly difficult to play the very sort of style that you want to promote.

As to your question what would happen in ZOS gave me back Major Mending and introduced this "desecrate" debuff, I can list 3 scenarios, all of which would happen:

1. The standard "OMG look at my leet damage!" NB/Sorcerer would not use the tool available to them, come to these forums complaining about invincible healbots, which would then prompt ZOS to again remove the Major Memding (while keeping in the "desecrate")
2. The intelligent player who actually knows the games mechanics, would do exactly what they are doing now: using overtuned CP/gear enabled anti-healing measure to completely destroy the only defensive tool I have. Now I'll have to contend with two of them instead of just one.
3. "Ball groups" would be the main beneficiaries and thus become stronger. Because they can have dedicated healing specs to ensure everyone in that group receives the heal bonus and a dedicated spec to ensure those they are fighting get "desecrated". Ungrouped players simply do not have the resources or flexibility to ensure they always have both.

The game at its core has mechanics that are easy to learn and the game is such that players can find relative safety and zerg-surf. I'm fine with that. OK, this means I'm going to get Rune Cage+Meteored, multiple Jesus Beams spammed, and Xv1 stealth sniped, etc. It's going to happen in such a bear & pretzels game. What makes up for this is that when you do corner the Xv1ers such they do not have the security of their zerg, they get absolutely destroyed, the "easy" approach absolutely helps here as it is not a convoluted process to kill them (unless. of course, you are a masochist and play a magplar), and can achieve things that they are convinced you macro or use CE. That's ESO. It's always been the charm of the game.

But when people complain, get in an uproar, says things are too strong, etc., what has happened without fail over the past 4 years is that we all have been hit with nerfs, which has made the "reward" part of trashing Xv1ers more and more difficult.

So I am of the opinion that over-exaggerations and demeaning any play-style falls into whole saying of "he who lives in glass houses" and are counterproductive to improving the game.

So your points are: Don't complain about actual problems because ZOS won't do it right and you are scared of it going wrong. And: The game should have a low skill floor because its not a competitive game?

Yeah that is not how it works and the entire class rep program exists for that entire reason. ZOS hitting the wrong pain points and making the divide worse. As I said before "You also know the difference between a legitimate play style (Tonks, smaller healers, DPS, and non viable over performing playstyles, megatonks, healbots, and counterless instakills)" Asking for balance and skill investement suddenly becomes demeaning? Why?

But apparently "healbots" are the cancer of ESO and not the overly-simplified job of DPSing in a "ball group." Because wearing Vicious Death and gap closing with Destro ultimate active is so intellectually and motor-skill demanding.

These are problems too yano, which is why destro ult got nerfed, and sload DPSers are a problem too. These link to healers, being the DDs who dish out high damage with low defense synergising with healbots high defense low damage.

Speaking of, do you think duroks and sloads is a good idea? Because they follow the same principle of "too easy too effective" that this post illustrates for healbots. The point of RPGs is to get better, with such a low skill floor and being able to one button wonder its pointless, that extends to everything, I listed above and more. Somebody getting hurt by a clearly better player is not a bad thing, they have to adapt and get better.

If you want to pull of the thing to the effectiveness that currently easy mechanics provide, put some effort in and fight the counters. Removing smart heal would do this, and so would desecrate buff. Speaking you said you would have two things to deal with, but that is only a group healer, not with self heals, which is exactly what group healers needed.

Non of my proposed fixes kill the playstyle, which was something that happened with stand your ground and tanks. These, unlike healing, is literally impossible whereas ball group healing is fine. The ideas I propose, again, not asking for all of them, would take healbots to a happy medium the likes of which roles should be. It'd allow tank/heal based builds who don't abuse mechanics to the point they lose other things and rely on the horde to function.