Murkmire, and exploring Blackmarsh.

CyberSkooma

I'm concerned about how ZOS is going to handle heading into Black Marsh for Murkmire. Obviously, we don't know very much about Murkmire yet. But I'm still going to say what's on my mind about it. (TES and it's infamous lore inconsistencies, oof.)

Since you're reading the lore section of the forum, I'll assume that you already know the basics of Black Marsh. Practically completely inhospitable except to the Argonians, who are immune to poisons and disease. Mysterious and uncharted by those except the native Argonians.. The landscape is littered with poisonous animals, insects, plants, and parasites lurking in the waters; things that have helped prevent successful invasions on the territory. Even Tiber Septim avoided all except the borders.

I am worried that Murkmire will downplay all of these things, and kill the mystery and the danger that the region holds by even just traveling. Yes, we currently have Shadowfen in the game, but it's not very deep into the region, so at least you can play with the excuse that it's not the "heart" of Black Marsh. The last thing I want to see in The Elder Scrolls is another "Inhospitable" region ruined, and made very, very hospitable. *cough* Skyrim *cough*

dodgehopper_ESO

I know how you feel. I want those poison storms to be real. I want the subsurface cities to be a thing as well... which means they probably should add water breathing and 3d swimming.

CyberSkooma

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I know how you feel. I want those poison storms to be real. I want the subsurface cities to be a thing as well... which means they probably should add water breathing and 3d swimming.

Indeed.. I've always called for 3D swimming anyway. Unfortunately ESO has almost ruined many of the previously unseen zones for me. I know they'd probably be portrayed differently in a main-line game but... sheesh.

Dracan_Fontom

Well in lore perspective, the border areas of Black Marsh has been explored and conquered, by Tiber Septim as well, and since Murkmire should be a border area as well, at least iirc, then there shouldn't be much problems with exploring the area with non-argonians.

CyberSkooma

Dracan_Fontom wrote: »

Well in lore perspective, the border areas of Black Marsh has been explored and conquered, by Tiber Septim as well, and since Murkmire should be a border area as well, at least iirc, then there shouldn't be much problems with exploring the area with non-argonians.

Yes it should be, you just never know where they might put things like dungeons and trials.

Dracan_Fontom

CyberSkooma wrote: »

Dracan_Fontom wrote: »

Well in lore perspective, the border areas of Black Marsh has been explored and conquered, by Tiber Septim as well, and since Murkmire should be a border area as well, at least iirc, then there shouldn't be much problems with exploring the area with non-argonians.

Yes it should be, you just never know where they might put things like dungeons and trials.

Well if they make a trial/dungeon that somehow goes into central Black Marsh, then it will be hazardous, yes but not impossible. However, I doubt they will make trial/dungeon that leads into Central Black Marsh. And again, Murkmure us along the border of Black Marsh, which has been explored and conquered so the being mysterious wouldn't make much sense.

RaddlemanNumber7

I think ZOS have the natural hazards of Murkmire covered with the prelude questline. If you do all 150 daily quests for the Murkmire Prepper achievement you will be equipped with sufficient remedies and bug repellents to keep an army safe.

Sicardus

Yeah the land is deadly, but certainly not completely uninhabitable. Eventually they're probably going to develop all of Argonia, and there's plenty of flexibility in the lore to make that work. Just don't expect any non-Argonians in Helstrom unless you're one.

Dracan_Fontom

Sicardus wrote: »

Yeah the land is deadly, but certainly not completely uninhabitable. Eventually they're probably going to develop all of Argonia, and there's plenty of flexibility in the lore to make that work. Just don't expect any non-Argonians in Helstrom unless you're one.

I agree. I mean... we are/were a soulless pile of flesh that fought against how many Deadric Princes/Armies/other villians? I think a little poison and disease is manageable, especially when there are magics that allow for its curablility.

CyberSkooma

Dracan_Fontom wrote: »

Sicardus wrote: »

Yeah the land is deadly, but certainly not completely uninhabitable. Eventually they're probably going to develop all of Argonia, and there's plenty of flexibility in the lore to make that work. Just don't expect any non-Argonians in Helstrom unless you're one.

I agree. I mean... we are/were a soulless pile of flesh that fought against how many Deadric Princes/Armies/other villians? I think a little poison and disease is manageable, especially when there are magics that allow for its curablility.

True, I am however not only talking about Player Characters, but what kind of NPC's are displayed as well. The land as a whole.

I'm sure ZOS is being careful about it how they develop it, but we won't really know until we play it It will really just depend how deep the zone ends up reaching into Black Marsh.

Robo_Hobo

I feel like the inhospitability of Black Marsh has always been overplayed by players. There's a difference between it being a place that was never able to be successfully invaded by a large force, to being a place only argonians can ever go. Most of the sources we have on that come from Imperial sources anyway, not first-hand accounts. I think there's definitely a few very adventurous non-argonians that have made it even to the heart of black marsh, but are so few in number that it's still considered a death sentence for any non-argonians generally.

Of course, this will seem strange seeing all the players run around Black Marsh where ever they want, but no more strange than seeing them all run around Artaeum or the Clockwork City.

But despite that, I do agree, I fear that the elements that make it such an exciting place to read about in things like the Argonian Account won't be represented very well whenever we go there in ESO. I mean, in some ways it's technically infeasible. Some accounts of Black Marsh say that the landscape changes and whole cities move along the border because of the swamp moving and taking it along - but I'm sure when we see those cities they'll be staying right where they always will be. That's probably also why we didn't get to see Falinesti in Valenwood.

I do still hope they show the rootworms and swamp leviathans though.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

After what they did to the poor Altmer homeland, the only thing giving me any hope of lore accuracy (or anything interesting at all for that matter) is the fact that Murkmire has been on the back burner for so long. Maybe something interesting survived the rework. Even then I'm not holding my breath.

CyberSkooma

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

After what they did to the poor Altmer homeland, the only thing giving me any hope of lore accuracy (or anything interesting at all for that matter) is the fact that Murkmire has been on the back burner for so long. Maybe something interesting survived the rework. Even then I'm not holding my breath.

People always raved about how "pretty" Summerset was but all it did was make me sad, lol.

scipionumatia

bet they block off that part of black marsh and say its "too hazardous" to travel. you know the same way how red mountain isn't accessible in morrowind.


It would be cool if there was some kind of armor/costume you would need to equip to travel in black marsh or maybe a prerequisite story where you cant travel there, but a projection of you could. Maybe through the mages guild or something.

CyberSkooma

scipionumatia wrote: »

bet they block off that part of black marsh and say its "too hazardous" to travel. you know the same way how red mountain isn't accessible in morrowind.


It would be cool if there was some kind of armor/costume you would need to equip to travel in black marsh or maybe a prerequisite story where you cant travel there, but a projection of you could. Maybe through the mages guild or something.

I would be totally cool with special equipment used to travel to dangerous parts. Or, even just a "resist poison/disease" potion you have to take before going into it.

dodgehopper_ESO

CyberSkooma wrote: »

scipionumatia wrote: »

bet they block off that part of black marsh and say its "too hazardous" to travel. you know the same way how red mountain isn't accessible in morrowind.


It would be cool if there was some kind of armor/costume you would need to equip to travel in black marsh or maybe a prerequisite story where you cant travel there, but a projection of you could. Maybe through the mages guild or something.

I would be totally cool with special equipment used to travel to dangerous parts. Or, even just a "resist poison/disease" potion you have to take before going into it.

They could always make it an enchantment as well. Waterbreathing would be fun also.

ArchMikem

I was under the impression from a source/opinion that the "Dangerous poisoned and diseased" Murkmire was actually just the border regions the Imperials couldn't get through, when in reality the Murkmire interior is a host to several varying biomes, from thick swampy jungles to lush rain forests to rolling hills and grasslands.

Here's a screen of the Mazzatun Dungeon background.



As you can see, that landscape doesn't look swampy or inhospitable at all. Really it looks like beautiful mountainous rain forests under a bright blue sky.

SirAxen

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

After what they did to the poor Altmer homeland, the only thing giving me any hope of lore accuracy (or anything interesting at all for that matter) is the fact that Murkmire has been on the back burner for so long. Maybe something interesting survived the rework. Even then I'm not holding my breath.

Summerset is pretty damn awesome. Not sure what you're talking about. ESO is canon, therefore it is accurate.

Korah_Eaglecry

SirAxen wrote: »

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

After what they did to the poor Altmer homeland, the only thing giving me any hope of lore accuracy (or anything interesting at all for that matter) is the fact that Murkmire has been on the back burner for so long. Maybe something interesting survived the rework. Even then I'm not holding my breath.

Summerset is pretty damn awesome. Not sure what you're talking about. ESO is canon, therefore it is accurate.

Theres still some here on the forums that feel Summerset should have been exactly as described in some dusty old in-game book describing the buildings windows as bugwings. The unreliable narrator apparently should not have applied here and ZOS ruined everything because it didnt turn out exactly as they had imagined it.

On the topic though, I do feel as if while I expect some of the lore to be turned on its head (as it should be when youre confronted with reality vs stories youve heard from others) if we are going to go into Black Marsh and its going to be as hospitable as Shadowfen. Then they need to address the issues theyre creating with the lore. Summersets conflicting architecture doesnt even come close to the amount of lore we have that has established Black Marsh as inhospitable. It goes beyond a simple book making claims about a land that was isolated from the general population of Tamriel like Summerset. It brings into question the very history that has been established over the course of 5+ games. We have numerous stories that repeat the same ideas of Black Marsh that doesnt sit well with the concept of an unreliable narrator. Black Marsh being impossible or too risky to outright invade.

Now Im not saying that they need to make Black Marsh a land of impenetrable swamps, as its quite clear at this point that they wont be and we will likely see far more of Black Marsh than we ever thought we would. But that they need to come up with a very good reason for why it is not this impenetrable swamp. What was the real reason for why the first empire failed. Why did Tiber Septim, the man that brought the Altmer to heel, decide not to go beyond the border regions.

Sicardus

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

SirAxen wrote: »

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

After what they did to the poor Altmer homeland, the only thing giving me any hope of lore accuracy (or anything interesting at all for that matter) is the fact that Murkmire has been on the back burner for so long. Maybe something interesting survived the rework. Even then I'm not holding my breath.

Summerset is pretty damn awesome. Not sure what you're talking about. ESO is canon, therefore it is accurate.

Theres still some here on the forums that feel Summerset should have been exactly as described in some dusty old in-game book describing the buildings windows as bugwings. The unreliable narrator apparently should not have applied here and ZOS ruined everything because it didnt turn out exactly as they had imagined it.

On the topic though, I do feel as if while I expect some of the lore to be turned on its head (as it should be when youre confronted with reality vs stories youve heard from others) if we are going to go into Black Marsh and its going to be as hospitable as Shadowfen. Then they need to address the issues theyre creating with the lore. Summersets conflicting architecture doesnt even come close to the amount of lore we have that has established Black Marsh as inhospitable. It goes beyond a simple book making claims about a land that was isolated from the general population of Tamriel like Summerset. It brings into question the very history that has been established over the course of 5+ games. We have numerous stories that repeat the same ideas of Black Marsh that doesnt sit well with the concept of an unreliable narrator. Black Marsh being impossible or too risky to outright invade.

Now Im not saying that they need to make Black Marsh a land of impenetrable swamps, as its quite clear at this point that they wont be and we will likely see far more of Black Marsh than we ever thought we would. But that they need to come up with a very good reason for why it is not this impenetrable swamp. What was the real reason for why the first empire failed. Why did Tiber Septim, the man that brought the Altmer to heel, decide not to go beyond the border regions.

Murkmire is a border region, therefore this zone is relatively going to be hospitable with lore. There should be a lot of poison damage as evidenced by maelstrom arena. I think the idea that's its inhospitable is truly exaggerated over the course of the games, and the reality is that it's simply harder to survive in Argonia for non-Argonians. Not to mention, every person that has portrayed Argonia as some nuclear area where you will die just by being in the land, has also said that Argonia is not a name found in canon. Point is, people could dig deeper into the lore for the truth. Then again, this location and race has forced me to delve deeper out of pure interest in their lore and the sheer mystery of it all. Everyone talking about how Summerset wasn't correct and how Argonia won't be trusts too much in the Imperial point of view and not the fact that the Imperial's observations seldom equal reality

SirAxen

While it's 'romantic' in a way to think of Black Marsh as being impossible to navigate, that doesn't mean that it necessarily is. That's a whole region of Tamriel being basically cut off from content, and that's silly. Stories are exaggerated all the time in this universe and it's super annoying when people pick and choose which ones are gospel and which ones aren't.

Korah_Eaglecry

Sicardus wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

SirAxen wrote: »

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

After what they did to the poor Altmer homeland, the only thing giving me any hope of lore accuracy (or anything interesting at all for that matter) is the fact that Murkmire has been on the back burner for so long. Maybe something interesting survived the rework. Even then I'm not holding my breath.

Summerset is pretty damn awesome. Not sure what you're talking about. ESO is canon, therefore it is accurate.

Theres still some here on the forums that feel Summerset should have been exactly as described in some dusty old in-game book describing the buildings windows as bugwings. The unreliable narrator apparently should not have applied here and ZOS ruined everything because it didnt turn out exactly as they had imagined it.

On the topic though, I do feel as if while I expect some of the lore to be turned on its head (as it should be when youre confronted with reality vs stories youve heard from others) if we are going to go into Black Marsh and its going to be as hospitable as Shadowfen. Then they need to address the issues theyre creating with the lore. Summersets conflicting architecture doesnt even come close to the amount of lore we have that has established Black Marsh as inhospitable. It goes beyond a simple book making claims about a land that was isolated from the general population of Tamriel like Summerset. It brings into question the very history that has been established over the course of 5+ games. We have numerous stories that repeat the same ideas of Black Marsh that doesnt sit well with the concept of an unreliable narrator. Black Marsh being impossible or too risky to outright invade.

Now Im not saying that they need to make Black Marsh a land of impenetrable swamps, as its quite clear at this point that they wont be and we will likely see far more of Black Marsh than we ever thought we would. But that they need to come up with a very good reason for why it is not this impenetrable swamp. What was the real reason for why the first empire failed. Why did Tiber Septim, the man that brought the Altmer to heel, decide not to go beyond the border regions.

Murkmire is a border region, therefore this zone is relatively going to be hospitable with lore. There should be a lot of poison damage as evidenced by maelstrom arena. I think the idea that's its inhospitable is truly exaggerated over the course of the games, and the reality is that it's simply harder to survive in Argonia for non-Argonians. Not to mention, every person that has portrayed Argonia as some nuclear area where you will die just by being in the land, has also said that Argonia is not a name found in canon. Point is, people could dig deeper into the lore for the truth. Then again, this location and race has forced me to delve deeper out of pure interest in their lore and the sheer mystery of it all. Everyone talking about how Summerset wasn't correct and how Argonia won't be trusts too much in the Imperial point of view and not the fact that the Imperial's observations seldom equal reality

I understand its a border region. But my point is more about Black Marsh as a whole. We have access to about half of Tamriel as it is right now. And unless they plan to visit every plane of Oblivion before we finish off Tamriel. In about 3-4 years we could be looking at having all of Black Marsh accessible. Which is fine. Im not expecting them to hold back on that. Or even stay true to the lore thats established. But I would like some well thought out lore to explain why both the first empire and Talos did not go fully in on invading all of Argonia. I could accept that the first empire bought into the propaganda of the land being inhospitable. But by Talos time, I would have to believe that the man/men werent so easily fooled. Give us something to chew on while marching deeper into the swamps.

CyberSkooma

SirAxen wrote: »

While it's 'romantic' in a way to think of Black Marsh as being impossible to navigate, that doesn't mean that it necessarily is. That's a whole region of Tamriel being basically cut off from content, and that's silly. Stories are exaggerated all the time in this universe and it's super annoying when people pick and choose which ones are gospel and which ones aren't.

Not picking and choosing. Most people, who make posts like mine, complain about all kinds of hard-left turns in the lore. And not just with ESO. I could sit here and praise skyrim/oblivion all day, but I could also spend all day complaining about them. I understand this is fiction, so there's bound to be plot holes and some inconsistencies, but there comes a point where "unreliable narrator" is no longer a valid excuse.

SirAxen

CyberSkooma wrote: »

SirAxen wrote: »

While it's 'romantic' in a way to think of Black Marsh as being impossible to navigate, that doesn't mean that it necessarily is. That's a whole region of Tamriel being basically cut off from content, and that's silly. Stories are exaggerated all the time in this universe and it's super annoying when people pick and choose which ones are gospel and which ones aren't.

Not picking and choosing. Most people, who make posts like mine, complain about all kinds of hard-left turns in the lore. And not just with ESO. I could sit here and praise skyrim/oblivion all day, but I could also spend all day complaining about them. I understand this is fiction, so there's bound to be plot holes and some inconsistencies, but there comes a point where "unreliable narrator" is no longer a valid excuse.

It's pretty easy to grasp, actually. When 'Elder Scrolls' first became a thing, it wasn't a fully fleshed out lore yet. It's 'lore' is being built by the day. Some of those older games are simply being course corrected these days.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

SirAxen wrote: »

It's pretty easy to grasp, actually. When 'Elder Scrolls' first became a thing, it wasn't a fully fleshed out lore yet. It's 'lore' is being built by the day. Some of those older games are simply being course corrected these days.

That might have been a reasonable excuse for Oblivion, or retconning something from Arena. It's not an excuse that holds water for ESO, especially when one of those 'older games' is ESO itself.

CyberSkooma

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

SirAxen wrote: »

It's pretty easy to grasp, actually. When 'Elder Scrolls' first became a thing, it wasn't a fully fleshed out lore yet. It's 'lore' is being built by the day. Some of those older games are simply being course corrected these days.

That might have been a reasonable excuse for Oblivion, or retconning something from Arena. It's not an excuse that holds water for ESO, especially when one of those 'older games' is ESO itself.

For Oblivion it almost works. But I mean come on. What's wrong with following the original material? Genuine question.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

CyberSkooma wrote: »

For Oblivion it almost works, because at least they tossed in the "Talos terraforming Cyro" thing. But It's portrayed the same way here in ESO, so it's obviously just... crap.

Fair enough! Point is, they've had five single player games and a couple of spin-offs now, 'the lore isn't fleshed out' stopped being valid quite some time ago.

CyberSkooma

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

CyberSkooma wrote: »

For Oblivion it almost works, because at least they tossed in the "Talos terraforming Cyro" thing. But It's portrayed the same way here in ESO, so it's obviously just... crap.

Fair enough! Point is, they've had five single player games and a couple of spin-offs now, 'the lore isn't fleshed out' stopped being valid quite some time ago.

I edited my comment and changed what I said but what you quoted I still hold true (:

You're right. It's no longer valid. There is plenty of lore and the fans know it. They need to stop trying to warp the source and then saying something like "ohhhh uhhh dragonbreak. ohhh uhhh CHIM."

Skyrim not actually *THAT* cold and pounded by blizzards? obviously just unreliable narrators.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

CyberSkooma wrote: »

You're right. It's no longer valid. There is plenty of lore and the fans know it. They need to stop trying to warp the source and then saying something like "ohhhh uhhh dragonbreak. ohhh uhhh CHIM."

The saddest part I think is that the bits where they kept all the really weird stuff - ES3: Morrowind, Shivering Isles - seem to be the most popular parts of the series. So why water it down? Being weird makes the series noticeable and memorable.

CyberSkooma

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

CyberSkooma wrote: »

You're right. It's no longer valid. There is plenty of lore and the fans know it. They need to stop trying to warp the source and then saying something like "ohhhh uhhh dragonbreak. ohhh uhhh CHIM."

The saddest part I think is that the bits where they kept all the really weird stuff - ES3: Morrowind, Shivering Isles - seem to be the most popular parts of the series. So why water it down? Being weird makes the series noticeable and memorable.

Exactly. What was ever the problem with bug-wing boat sails and windows? Sounds awesome to me and would have definitely been cool to look at. I don't think anybody would have disagreed.

PouletRico

Won't it be made as a Shadowfen like ? I don't expect anything else from ZOS, even if I would love a more Argonian style region