Are nightblades being addressed?

d10is13

I've seen 80k parses on stamblades, and 70k parses on magblades. I have not seen anything higher than 50k on any other class. That's a HUGE difference.

LiquidPony

d10is13 wrote: »

I've seen 80k parses on stamblades, and 70k parses on magblades. I have not seen anything higher than 50k on any other class. That's a HUGE difference.

If you haven't seen a parse higher than 50k on any other class, then you just haven't been looking.

Nightblades are on top but the gap is not nearly so wide as you seem to think it is, and those 70k/80k parses are the product of perfectly optimized groups.

Strider__Roshin

Get rid of the vMA bow and Relequen, and stam will not only have the worst survivability, but the worst damage as well. Right now, stam is getting carried by these items.

Silver_Strider

Daus wrote: »

Get rid of the vMA bow and Relequen, and stam will not only have the worst survivability, but the worst damage as well. Right now, stam is getting carried by these items.

This really doesn't address the issue of NB's doing the most damage out of all classes since Magblade uses neither of those items and is still the highest Magic DPS. If anything, it just shows how poorly ZOS is at balancing the game when items and sets are the only thing that keep a spec viable at all. Hell, even with these items Stamina builds are a liability because of their poor survivability that I fail to see the need to bring this into the discussion at all.

Stamina's poor survivability is mainly do to how badly the game is balanced. You get punished for Blocking by having your Stamina regen completely negated, you get punished for Dodge Rolling by having an increasing cost added each time, you don't have shields, your healing options are limited to Vigor and Rally, of which Rally is locked behind 2h weapons that are inferior to Dual Wield in terms of Damage. The Dual Wield skills that actually have heal morphs come at a massive DPS loss that they can't be effectively utilize and even if they could, are only useful after you take damage and can't be used as a preventative measure like shields can so while Stamina builds try to heal themselves before the next big hit, Magic builds can have a shield absorb most, if not all the damage from an attack and keep on dishing out damage without issue and without reliance on a healer being there to babysit them 24/7.

You want to balance PvE and PvP, tack on all these BS design choices to Battle Spirit. Change several underperforming Stamina Skills to be USEFUL for aiding Stamina's poor survivability, adjust the damage of abilities so as to make itemization more optional instead of making 2-3 OP items that are required to effectively do your job and for the love of Mara, ACTUALLY BALANCE YOUR GAME ZOS!!!!

d10is13

Sounds like people are saying magblades do more damage than stamblades. I have not seen an 80k magicka parse yet. But I've seen several stam ones. Can someone please post an 80k magicka parse?

Can someone post a non-nightblade parse that was above 50-55k?

LiquidPony

d10is13 wrote: »

Sounds like people are saying magblades do more damage than stamblades. I have not seen an 80k magicka parse yet. But I've seen several stam ones. Can someone please post an 80k magicka parse?

Can someone post a non-nightblade parse that was above 50-55k?

No one said that magblades do more damage than stamblades.

You probably aren't seeing a lot of good players post parses from other builds on YouTube because most of them are running Nightblades.

But regardless, I run a stamsorc pretty frequently and regularly hit 60k+ on the big parse fights (Valariel, Ra'kotu, Mantikora, etc.) ... and that's with less than 700 CP, imperfect Relequen, all purple gear besides weapons, and nothing near optimal group comp or buff/debuffs uptimes.

My guess would be that most Stam specs are capable of hitting 70k+ with BiS setups and optimized groups. But still, the stamblades will hit harder, so you just don't see the other builds that often.

Tasear

How would you like to see things differently?

Gnortranermara

Google the Peter Principle. People tend to be promoted until they finally land a job that they simply aren't equipped to competently perform, then they get stuck there, performing below standard until things get shaken up. ZOS needs a shake up. Combat balance in ESO is atrocious. Nobody expects perfection, but the gaps that currently exist are mindbogglingly stupid.

Drdeath20

Even if classes were fairly close to being balanced to one another the combat is not built for competitive pvp. This game really has deeper design flaws when it comes to combat in general. I will agree that if they offered people a way to keep all their achievements and unlockables and change classes you would see a tremendous boost in the nightblade population.

Avran_Sylt

I honestly don't care about solo parses when it comes to PvE DPS.

I want to see Trials Buffed parses for all of the classes.

NB has the benefit of Minor Berserk (+8% Damage), and Major Fracture(StamNB, ~9.6% more Damage) being baked into their kits.

This skews data when players do parses alone.

A Player getting 70K DPS with Berserk and Fracture will have ~57K without.

CurvedSwords123

Daus wrote: »

Get rid of the vMA bow and Relequen, and stam will not only have the worst survivability, but the worst damage as well. Right now, stam is getting carried by these items.

We're also getting melee range nerfed for some reason next patch.

Feanor

Daus wrote: »

Get rid of the vMA bow and Relequen, and stam will not only have the worst survivability, but the worst damage as well. Right now, stam is getting carried by these items.

And your point is? In the spectrum of the game where DPS differences do matter farming a vMA bow and Relequen isn’t exactly rocket science.

Strider__Roshin

Feanor wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Get rid of the vMA bow and Relequen, and stam will not only have the worst survivability, but the worst damage as well. Right now, stam is getting carried by these items.

And your point is? In the spectrum of the game where DPS differences do matter farming a vMA bow and Relequen isn’t exactly rocket science.

I'm not saying that these sets shouldn't be BiS I'm just saying that they shouldn't be as powerful as they currently are.

MashmalloMan

Daus wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Get rid of the vMA bow and Relequen, and stam will not only have the worst survivability, but the worst damage as well. Right now, stam is getting carried by these items.

And your point is? In the spectrum of the game where DPS differences do matter farming a vMA bow and Relequen isn’t exactly rocket science.

I'm not saying that these sets shouldn't be BiS I'm just saying that they shouldn't be as powerful as they currently are.

The bigger issue is how much reliance there is on sets for stamina to be on par with mag. Everyone ends up running the same sets. Relequen effectivly gives 5-7k dps and vma bow gives 2-4k yet we still match mag classes for dmg.

Also Relequen is single target while something like Siroria gives you DMG for ALL your abilities, therefore you get higher AoE DMG too.

We no longer have unique penetration sets and nothing built in for penetration like light armor so we are forced to use a pen set or the lover mundus stone to have acceptable pen.

Stamina classes have become very stale in pve, pvp at least mixing in some mag skills is okay for utility but you don't need utility for pve.

I would love a buff and uniqueness to stam classes overall if it meant a nerf to certain sets too. That would close the gap between new players getting good dps as a stam toon vs mag.

usmcjdking

Tasear wrote: »

How would you like to see things differently?

@Tasear

A lot of this classes numerical supremacy comes down to three things.

1) Ultimate generation (magblade).
2) Grim Focus.
3) Death Stroke's unclassified damage amp.

Nightblade ultimate generation is through the roof, particularily in the case of Magblade. This by itself isn't an actual issue - it becomes an issue by virtue of Death Stroke's incredibly cheap cost and Destro Ults damage output. My suggestion is to transfer the ult generation passive from Siphoning to the Assassination skill line. This does have greater implications towards buffing stamblades, though.

Grim Focus has been buffed and reworked into quite possibly one of the most ridiculous damage skills in the game. Getting a free spammable that deals execute level damage every 5 light attacks that also provides you very desireable buffs for a very long time is quite a bit too much. My suggestion is to return Grim Focus to an older state of 4x light attacks on the same target and reduce the duration to 12 seconds from 20. It should also fail to carry over stacks once it expires (as it did previously) but the bow proc should be separate from the minor berserk buff and should not expire until fired or out of combat.

The Death Stroke damage amp may be a candidate for PVE nerfing. Potentially reducing the damage amplification to direct damage only from all damage sources is a reasonable reduction in it's overall damage output. Deathstroke can provide nearly 100k damage on an average endgame stamblade which is significantly higher than any other ult in competition with it.

I do not believe all of these things need to happen at once by any means. Any single one would probably suffice enough for testing purposes to tune down the nightblade damage supremacy.

Tasear

/Lurk #ClassRepsAreListeningandLurking

Feanor

As for the OP: No, they aren’t.

Splattercat_83

d10is13 wrote: »

I've seen 80k parses on stamblades, and 70k parses on magblades. I have not seen anything higher than 50k on any other class. That's a HUGE difference.

And the skill level to get those numbers with the difficulty of the rotation is well deserved. A nightblade dosent hit that high when played by a normal player.

MashmalloMan

Splattercat_83 wrote: »

d10is13 wrote: »

I've seen 80k parses on stamblades, and 70k parses on magblades. I have not seen anything higher than 50k on any other class. That's a HUGE difference.

And the skill level to get those numbers with the difficulty of the rotation is well deserved. A nightblade dosent hit that high when played by a normal player.

Lol, difficulty of rotation.. it's really not that difficult that it warrants that much increase in damage. They have a lot of self buffs so the class is pretty loaded but even with those same buffs in a group as other classes they don't reach that level of dmg.

Galarthor

d10is13 wrote: »

I've seen 80k parses on stamblades, and 70k parses on magblades. I have not seen anything higher than 50k on any other class. That's a HUGE difference.

Given ZOS' poor track record when it comes to address something that makes NBs OP, I'd say we won't see any changes in this regard anytime soon.

If the original Proc Set meta and the WB meta are a benchmark, then we will be in for at least few more updates until this might be addressed.

If Fear is a benchmark, then this will never be addressed.

hakan

for the death stroke post. i posted my version of ds in the nb feedback thread. ill post it here too.

same ultimate damage and cost also the stun. but the 20 percent damage amp and defile comes at 100-110 ultimate. this also means less war machine and master architect procs.

this may both shut up the whiners from pvp and pve.

IZZEFlameLash

hakan wrote: »

for the death stroke post. i posted my version of ds in the nb feedback thread. ill post it here too.

same ultimate damage and cost also the stun. but the 20 percent damage amp and defile comes at 100-110 ultimate. this also means less war machine and master architect procs.

this may both shut up the whiners from pvp and pve.

Defile and damage increase is not dependent on 120 ult consumption. But the stun is.

hakan

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

hakan wrote: »

for the death stroke post. i posted my version of ds in the nb feedback thread. ill post it here too.

same ultimate damage and cost also the stun. but the 20 percent damage amp and defile comes at 100-110 ultimate. this also means less war machine and master architect procs.

this may both shut up the whiners from pvp and pve.

Defile and damage increase is not dependent on 120 ult consumption. But the stun is.

i know im making a suggestion.

JinMori

d10is13 wrote: »

I've seen 80k parses on stamblades, and 70k parses on magblades. I have not seen anything higher than 50k on any other class. That's a HUGE difference.

That is wrong.

Nb have the highest solo parses because they have a lot of buffs that they can apply on themselves, which is why they deal so much damage in solo parses, but in a group where other people also provide buffs, the gap is much closer.

Maryal

First of all, test dummy parses can and often are easily 'cheesed' ... I mean, come on, give me a break.

Anyone qq'ing about some class being 'op' because of test dummy parses is either fairly new to the game, OR is trying to kick-start yet another 'let's nerf' (whatever). Whether IRL or in a game, there are people who love attention and qq drama is one way of getting a lot of attention.

People can be easily mislead. Part of this problem stems from the fact that most players don't test things out for themselves, don't understand how to properly test or even why they should test. It's easier to take at 'face value' the results of someone else's test. Of the people that do 'test' ... there will be some that give 'lip service' controlling variables during their tests, but how many people really understand what 'controlling variables' means? When we look at someone else's test results, do we know what to look for, what questions to ask, or even how to properly apply the results of a given test?

There is a big difference between a class being 'OP' and a '*build' being 'OP'
* armor, jewelry, enchants, pots, food, enhanced weapons, monster sets, etc.


To determine if a particular class 'OP' you need to perform testing with pre-determined parameters if you hope to get anything close to a valid test result, but so far, I haven't seen any of that, just a lot of conjecture and opinion.

To know if one class is 'OP' compared to the others, all classes have to be tested. As many variables as possible need to be removed (things that could skew the results). Testing should be done naked and with a plain weapon that is not part of a set and that is not enchanted.

You have to decide whether each class will be limited to using only their class abilities (plus heavy/light attacks), or if they will also be able to use other skills. If a debuff/buff is automatically included in an ability/skill used by a particular class, then that debuff/buff has to be manually duplicated for the classes who don't have that debuff/buff in their rotation (meaning a third party will need to attend the test for the sole purpose of applying the particular debuff/buff).

note: we are looking at dps ... something important in trials ... pvp is less about dps and more about out-witting or out strategizing your opponent ... unless you are in a zerg that simply uses numbers and plays 'follow the leader' to mow the other faction down (in which case dps still isn't an issue, but then again, neither is strategy).

You would need 5 players to represent each class (players are limited to representing 1 class ... no cross-over representation).

Each player-representative would do several test dummy parses ... the number of parses has to be chosen in advance and only that many parses can be done (no picking and choosing among numerous parses).

The players involved in the testing should be equally skilled/experienced. Weaving is allowed but no animation cancelling (we are testing to see if a particular class is 'OP' ... not how well someone can animation cancel).

When all the testing is done, remove the highest and lowest scores for each class, then average the numbers of the remaining 3 representatives for each class.

Compare the averaged numbers for each class.

Players should NOT use CP for the test, and the racial make up needs to be the same.,

NOTE: This process would have to be done 2x ... once for the stamina version of the class, and another for the magica version of the class.

If a player is skilled enough to do so, they can represent the stamina and magica versions of a class, but it has to be the same class (no cross-class representation).

I do not claim that these parameters are the 'end all, be all' of how to test, because they are not. I put these parameters out as a way to get people to think about what they can do to improve the quality and validity of tests they do, as well as some 'food for thought' for people when viewing the test dummy parses done by others who are claiming a particular class is OP.

SilverWF

NB aren't requires any kind of 'addressing'

BalticBlues

Wrecking Rune Cage by making it a dodgeable projectile removes Sorc's protection against NB gankers with this patch. For balancing, at least NBs "Aspect of Terror" now also needs to become a dodgeable projectile.

Galarthor

BalticBlues wrote: »

Wrecking Rune Cage by making it a dodgeable projectile removes Sorc's protection against NB gankers with this patch. For balancing, at least NBs "Aspect of Terror" now also needs to become a dodgeable projectile.

Good one!

Fear has been an issue for years. They haven't addressed it so far. No reason why they should now.

CultOfMMO

1) i've seen 70k stamplar, 62k stamdk, and 65k stamsorc parses. Not all at once in the same grp obviously just off the top of my head, so idk how they really all compare, but either way you're simply not looking hard enough. Pretty sure those numbers are not near their respective ceilings either

2) the numbers you're quoting are at the absolute HIGHEST of the HIGHEST level of players that vast majority of ppl like you can never hope to comprehend, ever. Chances are if you give them other classes to play with they'll still outparse 9/10 stam/magblades they encounter. Yes class and spec ceiling dps have quite a large discrepancy atm, but really for most grps they're rather balanced. Both my magsorcs and dks are parsing 47k live solo 6mil if accounting for minor berserk, which is not at all that far from my 49k magblade, and yet i've filled for raid grps where none of the magblades are even remotely close to my magsorc parses.

NyassaV

d10is13 wrote: »

Sounds like people are saying magblades do more damage than stamblades. I have not seen an 80k magicka parse yet. But I've seen several stam ones. Can someone please post an 80k magicka parse?

Can someone post a non-nightblade parse that was above 50-55k?

First you need to stop asking for the nearly impossible. Then you need to learn how the game works. Seldom can ANYONE get more than 50k on anyclass without cheesing the dummy. Most of what you say is probably cheese or innacurate

MISTRESS_DARKNESb14a_ESO

I am a nightblade I can not get my damage over 13k.
I do have fun playing my char.

How do i reach this 50k parse?