ZOS can you please comment on the fake tank situation.

Guppet

I don’t expect ZOS to have a solution yet. But I would very much like if they could please confirm they are aware of the situation. It would also be good to have thier stance on the issue, if they see it as fine, abusing the queue system or griefing.

It’s high profile now and there is no way it has not been seen.

Give us a steer on this so we know if it’s something you agree with and may be looking to fix.

DoobZ69

They're changing the queuing rule to be able to pick only one role. There's your answer from ZOS.

Guppet

DoobZ69 wrote: »

They're changing the queuing rule to be able to pick only one role. There's your answer from ZOS.

That’s maybe the start. But no official statement on if they agree with queuing as a fake role. It is slightly hopeful though.

Riseyy

What can they really do aside from making it so a character needs to meet a certain HP threshold for them to be able to queue as tank? Not a whole lot imo.

jaschacasadiob16_ESO

Riseyy wrote: »

What can they really do aside from making it so a character needs to meet a certain HP threshold for them to be able to queue as tank? Not a whole lot imo.

You don't need a lot of HP to tank. In fact, I've played with sorceres who relied on shields and crits. You can't even force peopl eto have a taunt, because the simple fact that you have it on the bar does not mean you will use it.

For every "solution" there are plenty of ways to mess with it.

On the other hand, ZOS does not consider this as a way of cheating the queue system. That's the reason people queue up as healers and tanks: reduce the waiting time. That's where ZOS should probably work on. Maybe adding an option to queue up with people who do not care about roles and with those people only.

Guppet

jaschacasadiob16_ESO wrote: »

Riseyy wrote: »

What can they really do aside from making it so a character needs to meet a certain HP threshold for them to be able to queue as tank? Not a whole lot imo.

You don't need a lot of HP to tank. In fact, I've played with sorceres who relied on shields and crits. You can't even force peopl eto have a taunt, because the simple fact that you have it on the bar does not mean you will use it.

For every "solution" there are plenty of ways to mess with it.

On the other hand, ZOS does not consider this as a way of cheating the queue system. That's the reason people queue up as healers and tanks: reduce the waiting time. That's where ZOS should probably work on. Maybe adding an option to queue up with people who do not care about roles and with those people only.

The last part is exactly what I want to know. You say they don’t see it as cheating the system, who said that, I don’t see anything from them saying that.

jaschacasadiob16_ESO

Guppet wrote: »

jaschacasadiob16_ESO wrote: »

Riseyy wrote: »

What can they really do aside from making it so a character needs to meet a certain HP threshold for them to be able to queue as tank? Not a whole lot imo.

You don't need a lot of HP to tank. In fact, I've played with sorceres who relied on shields and crits. You can't even force peopl eto have a taunt, because the simple fact that you have it on the bar does not mean you will use it.

For every "solution" there are plenty of ways to mess with it.

On the other hand, ZOS does not consider this as a way of cheating the queue system. That's the reason people queue up as healers and tanks: reduce the waiting time. That's where ZOS should probably work on. Maybe adding an option to queue up with people who do not care about roles and with those people only.

The last part is exactly what I want to know. You say they don’t see it as cheating the system, who said that, I don’t see anything from them saying that.

Well ZOS did not say anything at all. Whcih is a problem too.

Now they are forcing people to queue up with a single role. Which solves nothing. I mean, I would really like to have the chance to discuss in the forums this decision with the game designers to find out how this proposal was accepted and implemented. Wowzer.

In fact ZOS already gives you the tools to solve this problem on your own: vote kick. People do not use it. This silently translates into it's ok as it is. The simple fact that content is not gettting harder but players are getting stronger will only worsen the problem since tanks will be even more less needed

Live with that. That's a design choice.

eagles9595b16_ESO

Well I've seen this problem on random normal dungeon for several months now... what is really annoying is that it's never a high CP level who does that kind of thing.
All the time it was player level 25/40 dps who set themselves as tank... worse ones are nightblade DW with no shield or agro as kills... it always end up with the healer kiting the boss or DPS guys running around...

As I'm high CP +1000 I survived without difficulty... but in order to teach the guys a lesson I leave him the agro and when he dies I never res him. If the guys really put the group in danger then I vote to kick him.

Zos solution to only allow people to choose one role will not fixe the problem, the same idiots will select tank instead of tank/dps.

AH93

I too would like a response on this issue, as a healer I see fake tanks all the time and it's getting quite irritating, especially in veteran dungeons and more complex dlc dungeons, where a fake tank will simply get one shotted multiple times, it just makes the dungeon runs longer than if we had an actual tank. I've started just vote kicking these people now, I was accepting in the beginning but not any longer, it is getting out of hand.

FrancisCrawford

jaschacasadiob16_ESO wrote: »

. Maybe adding an option to queue up with people who do not care about roles and with those people only.

That's the only solution likely to work. On the other hand, it's also likely to picked by a huge fraction of the good DPSers, along of course with a bunch of the bad ones. So those of us who like queuing for non-DPS roles would find the quality of their groups diminished.

leepalmer95

Seems like i can no longer carry a dungeon on my dps while queueing as a tank rip

sudaki_eso

Its not really something ZOS can do about it or fix the "problem", its the community that creates the problem. People who will use a fake role and then telling you that you dont need a tank and so on - yup, you might not need one, you can even solo a lot of dungeons but please, if you have this kind of mindset do it with guildies or solo the damn dungeon. Do not pug with this selfish mindset!
There are some people in my guild that acutally will tell people to queue as a fake tank to get a group faster if they want to farm for gear. After numerous arguments about it and telling them that no one like fake tanks i gave up after a while. I run with guildies and if i pug i will vote to kick the fake tank if its clear that the group will have difficulties finishing the dungeon.

leepalmer95

sudaki_eso wrote: »

Its not really something ZOS can do about it or fix the "problem", its the community that creates the problem. People who will use a fake role and then telling you that you dont need a tank and so on - yup, you might not need one, you can even solo a lot of dungeons but please, if you have this kind of mindset do it with guildies or solo the damn dungeon. Do not pug with this selfish mindset!
There are some people in my guild that acutally will tell people to queue as a fake tank to get a group faster if they want to farm for gear. After numerous arguments about it and telling them that no one like fake tanks i gave up after a while. I run with guildies and if i pug i will vote to kick the fake tank if its clear that the group will have difficulties finishing the dungeon.

I queued the other day to get a shadowrend helm. I got into a group with a cp 100 and two 200's. They all had no idea what they was doing and was barely doing any dmg at all.

So yeah my dps stam sorc had to pretty much deal all the dps and tank at the same time. It was easy tbh.

They died on the last boss within 10s and i solo'd the entire boss on my own. They all said thank you after the dungeon because they couldn't do it on their own.

You say selfish yet i seemed to be helpful to them.

I never true random queue people to actually dps, i'm not queueing as an actual tank again and being in an easy vet dungeon for 3 hours because the dps dont have a 5 figure combined dps.

Guppet

leepalmer95 wrote: »

sudaki_eso wrote: »

Its not really something ZOS can do about it or fix the "problem", its the community that creates the problem. People who will use a fake role and then telling you that you dont need a tank and so on - yup, you might not need one, you can even solo a lot of dungeons but please, if you have this kind of mindset do it with guildies or solo the damn dungeon. Do not pug with this selfish mindset!
There are some people in my guild that acutally will tell people to queue as a fake tank to get a group faster if they want to farm for gear. After numerous arguments about it and telling them that no one like fake tanks i gave up after a while. I run with guildies and if i pug i will vote to kick the fake tank if its clear that the group will have difficulties finishing the dungeon.

I queued the other day to get a shadowrend helm. I got into a group with a cp 100 and two 200's. They all had no idea what they was doing and was barely doing any dmg at all.

So yeah my dps stam sorc had to pretty much deal all the dps and tank at the same time. It was easy tbh.

They died on the last boss within 10s and i solo'd the entire boss on my own. They all said thank you after the dungeon because they couldn't do it on their own.

You say selfish yet i seemed to be helpful to them.

I never true random queue people to actually dps, i'm not queueing as an actual tank again and being in an easy vet dungeon for 3 hours because the dps dont have a 5 figure combined dps.

And did any of those players learn how to do the instance or how to perform in a group? Erm no.

You completed the content for them, you see that as a service. I see that as removing their chance to learn.

If people never learn we end up with s huge divide between capable and not.

mikemacon

leepalmer95 wrote: »

sudaki_eso wrote: »

Its not really something ZOS can do about it or fix the "problem", its the community that creates the problem. People who will use a fake role and then telling you that you dont need a tank and so on - yup, you might not need one, you can even solo a lot of dungeons but please, if you have this kind of mindset do it with guildies or solo the damn dungeon. Do not pug with this selfish mindset!
There are some people in my guild that acutally will tell people to queue as a fake tank to get a group faster if they want to farm for gear. After numerous arguments about it and telling them that no one like fake tanks i gave up after a while. I run with guildies and if i pug i will vote to kick the fake tank if its clear that the group will have difficulties finishing the dungeon.

I queued the other day to get a shadowrend helm. I got into a group with a cp 100 and two 200's. They all had no idea what they was doing and was barely doing any dmg at all.

So yeah my dps stam sorc had to pretty much deal all the dps and tank at the same time. It was easy tbh.

They died on the last boss within 10s and i solo'd the entire boss on my own. They all said thank you after the dungeon because they couldn't do it on their own.

You say selfish yet i seemed to be helpful to them.

I never true random queue people to actually dps, i'm not queueing as an actual tank again and being in an easy vet dungeon for 3 hours because the dps dont have a 5 figure combined dps.

Nah.

I say “selfish”.

You didn’t queue up as a tank with the thought of helping people through the content.

You did it because you didn’t think you should have to wait in the DD queue.

Nice try, though...

VaranisArano

ZOS really can't stop people from queuing in the wrong role. Any requirements can be gotten around or gamed by people who want to skip the queue.

But ZOS can make it more obvious when people deliberately choose the wrong role. That's what the whole "only choose one role" does.

When the group sees that the tank isn't taunting, they can tell the person, "You queued as tank, please tank". And then the group can respond however they like if the "tank" refuses.

Guppet

VaranisArano wrote: »

ZOS really can't stop people from queuing in the wrong role. Any requirements can be gotten around or gamed by people who want to skip the queue.

But ZOS can make it more obvious when people deliberately choose the wrong role. That's what the whole "only choose one role" does.

When the group sees that the tank isn't taunting, they can tell the person, "You queued as tank, please tank". And then the group can respond however they like if the "tank" refuses.

They can coalate data from the run though. Say if you queued as tank and failed to taunt a single boss, they could ban you from that role for 24 hours.

Obviously they would need to come up with the metrics they use.

Could also dare I say it do the same with vet dungeon dps, if your too low then you cant queue again for 24 hours. Might encourage people to perform.

sudaki_eso

leepalmer95 wrote: »

I queued the other day to get a shadowrend helm. I got into a group with a cp 100 and two 200's. They all had no idea what they was doing and was barely doing any dmg at all.

So yeah my dps stam sorc had to pretty much deal all the dps and tank at the same time. It was easy tbh.

They died on the last boss within 10s and i solo'd the entire boss on my own. They all said thank you after the dungeon because they couldn't do it on their own.

You say selfish yet i seemed to be helpful to them.

I never true random queue people to actually dps, i'm not queueing as an actual tank again and being in an easy vet dungeon for 3 hours because the dps dont have a 5 figure combined dps.

So, did you queued as a tank or dps? There is nothing wrong in my book if you queued as a dps and did the job of the tank too because the tank is simply not good enough or doesnt know what to do. If you are a dd and queued as a tank to get faster through the dungeonfinder then its different, this what this discussion is all about. People who purposely queue as a tank when they are in fact a dd...and what zos can do about it...No one like fake tanks
Btw, i have pug'ed a lot of dungeons and not a single time it took 3h for a vet dungeon, you solo those ones faster...you guys are exaggerating.

leepalmer95

mikemacon wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

sudaki_eso wrote: »

Its not really something ZOS can do about it or fix the "problem", its the community that creates the problem. People who will use a fake role and then telling you that you dont need a tank and so on - yup, you might not need one, you can even solo a lot of dungeons but please, if you have this kind of mindset do it with guildies or solo the damn dungeon. Do not pug with this selfish mindset!
There are some people in my guild that acutally will tell people to queue as a fake tank to get a group faster if they want to farm for gear. After numerous arguments about it and telling them that no one like fake tanks i gave up after a while. I run with guildies and if i pug i will vote to kick the fake tank if its clear that the group will have difficulties finishing the dungeon.

I queued the other day to get a shadowrend helm. I got into a group with a cp 100 and two 200's. They all had no idea what they was doing and was barely doing any dmg at all.

So yeah my dps stam sorc had to pretty much deal all the dps and tank at the same time. It was easy tbh.

They died on the last boss within 10s and i solo'd the entire boss on my own. They all said thank you after the dungeon because they couldn't do it on their own.

You say selfish yet i seemed to be helpful to them.

I never true random queue people to actually dps, i'm not queueing as an actual tank again and being in an easy vet dungeon for 3 hours because the dps dont have a 5 figure combined dps.

Nah.

I say “selfish”.

You didn’t queue up as a tank with the thought of helping people through the content.

You did it because you didn’t think you should have to wait in the DD queue.

Nice try, though...

To be honest i don't really care.

I carried the run either way.

Lets be honest you really don't need a tank/ heal in most of the vet dungeons anyway when 1 dd can pretty much solo all boss.

paulsimonps

Guppet wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

ZOS really can't stop people from queuing in the wrong role. Any requirements can be gotten around or gamed by people who want to skip the queue.

But ZOS can make it more obvious when people deliberately choose the wrong role. That's what the whole "only choose one role" does.

When the group sees that the tank isn't taunting, they can tell the person, "You queued as tank, please tank". And then the group can respond however they like if the "tank" refuses.

They can coalate data from the run though. Say if you queued as tank and failed to taunt a single boss, they could ban you from that role for 24 hours.

Obviously they would need to come up with the metrics they use.

Could also dare I say it do the same with vet dungeon dps, if your too low then you cant queue again for 24 hours. Might encourage people to perform.

"Encourage people to perform" seems all well and good, if it wasn't for the fact that the game itself is TERRIBLE at teaching you how to play. For someone new to MMOs and or Gaming in general its not easy figuring things out in this game, and not everyone thinks its fun to google guides, if you want to ban people from queueing for dungeons for 24hs there needs to be a much better tutorial in the base game.

As well..... what kind of parameters are you talking about for tanking? There are so many ways to tank... how are you gonna differentiate between what is and what is not a tank like that? Seems a very slippery slope.

AhPook_Is_Here

The only real solution they could do that players couldn't game would be to increase the difficulty of trivial content to a level where it became very challenging for high CP players; or increasing boss damage and nerfing mitigation to boss heavy attacks and special attacks to where they one shot shielded DPS players (magicka stat weighting) taunting. Knowing content couldn't be completed without a tank is the only way you can encourage people not to game the system. As long as content is trivial and people value their time this will be a thing.

Kuramas9tails

Good luck with a response.

Starlock

DoobZ69 wrote: »

They're changing the queuing rule to be able to pick only one role. There's your answer from ZOS.

I'm actually pretty disappointed by this move on the whole. As others have doubtless mentioned, it won't resolve the issue and is just a pain for those of us who can legitimately do multiple roles on the same character.

At any rate, I don't expect the developers to respond to this "problem" because it is largely a community-manufactured problem. This "problem" is the result of players setting expectations of other players that are then inevitably not met all the time. Bottom line is that if you want other players to agree to your own personal expectations, you need to manually form groups. When I queue for randoms, I pretty much accept I am checking a box that reads "you will suspend any and all expectations of other players and adapt to who you are playing with." If we clear the content and have fun, it's fine. If we have trouble clearing the content, I try to help people out. Perhaps these "problems" would be lessened if more folks offered to help out and were patient? Sometimes all it takes is saying in group chat "do you have a taunt slotted?" I've had folks reply "oh, no... sorry... let me slot one!" and then me replying "cool, thanks!"

VaranisArano

paulsimonps wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

ZOS really can't stop people from queuing in the wrong role. Any requirements can be gotten around or gamed by people who want to skip the queue.

But ZOS can make it more obvious when people deliberately choose the wrong role. That's what the whole "only choose one role" does.

When the group sees that the tank isn't taunting, they can tell the person, "You queued as tank, please tank". And then the group can respond however they like if the "tank" refuses.

They can coalate data from the run though. Say if you queued as tank and failed to taunt a single boss, they could ban you from that role for 24 hours.

Obviously they would need to come up with the metrics they use.

Could also dare I say it do the same with vet dungeon dps, if your too low then you cant queue again for 24 hours. Might encourage people to perform.

"Encourage people to perform" seems all well and good, if it wasn't for the fact that the game itself is TERRIBLE at teaching you how to play. For someone new to MMOs and or Gaming in general its not easy figuring things out in this game, and not everyone thinks its fun to google guides, if you want to ban people from queueing for dungeons for 24hs there needs to be a much better tutorial in the base game.

As well..... what kind of parameters are you talking about for tanking? There are so many ways to tank... how are you gonna differentiate between what is and what is not a tank like that? Seems a very slippery slope.

At minimum, I'd say a tank should use a taunt to hold boss aggro. (I've met one player, just one, with sufficient DPS to hold aggro on normal dungeon bosses with no taunt).

Agenericname

Guppet wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

ZOS really can't stop people from queuing in the wrong role. Any requirements can be gotten around or gamed by people who want to skip the queue.

But ZOS can make it more obvious when people deliberately choose the wrong role. That's what the whole "only choose one role" does.

When the group sees that the tank isn't taunting, they can tell the person, "You queued as tank, please tank". And then the group can respond however they like if the "tank" refuses.

They can coalate data from the run though. Say if you queued as tank and failed to taunt a single boss, they could ban you from that role for 24 hours.

Obviously they would need to come up with the metrics they use.

Could also dare I say it do the same with vet dungeon dps, if your too low then you cant queue again for 24 hours. Might encourage people to perform.

Banning players from content for being bad or failing to meet the expectations of others is almost as unlikely as getting the DPS meter back. It's a no win scenario for ZoS.

They removed the ambiguity from the dungeon roles. It's far less likely that anyone will accidentally queue and in queuing you're explicitly saying that you can/will perform the role. This allows the group to make the decision if they want to keep the fake tank or not. All the tools required to deal with this are in place.

The dev comments in the patch notes say enough.

SakuraRush

The new trend is they queue with another player so you can't vote to kick them.

A possible solution would be an "avoid player" button so you don't get matched with them a second time.

This is particularly annoying from the standpoint of an actual tank. When we want to DPS (on a dps character) and wait in queue only to get matched with a "tank" that can't tank.

There is no good solution as the problem is the players doing this.

A second solution would be to not have a queue penalty for leaving a game where someone picked multiple roles, assuming you only picked one role.

SakuraRush

leepalmer95 wrote: »

mikemacon wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

sudaki_eso wrote: »

Its not really something ZOS can do about it or fix the "problem", its the community that creates the problem. People who will use a fake role and then telling you that you dont need a tank and so on - yup, you might not need one, you can even solo a lot of dungeons but please, if you have this kind of mindset do it with guildies or solo the damn dungeon. Do not pug with this selfish mindset!
There are some people in my guild that acutally will tell people to queue as a fake tank to get a group faster if they want to farm for gear. After numerous arguments about it and telling them that no one like fake tanks i gave up after a while. I run with guildies and if i pug i will vote to kick the fake tank if its clear that the group will have difficulties finishing the dungeon.

I queued the other day to get a shadowrend helm. I got into a group with a cp 100 and two 200's. They all had no idea what they was doing and was barely doing any dmg at all.

So yeah my dps stam sorc had to pretty much deal all the dps and tank at the same time. It was easy tbh.

They died on the last boss within 10s and i solo'd the entire boss on my own. They all said thank you after the dungeon because they couldn't do it on their own.

You say selfish yet i seemed to be helpful to them.

I never true random queue people to actually dps, i'm not queueing as an actual tank again and being in an easy vet dungeon for 3 hours because the dps dont have a 5 figure combined dps.

Nah.

I say “selfish”.

You didn’t queue up as a tank with the thought of helping people through the content.

You did it because you didn’t think you should have to wait in the DD queue.

Nice try, though...

To be honest i don't really care.

I carried the run either way.

Lets be honest you really don't need a tank/ heal in most of the vet dungeons anyway when 1 dd can pretty much solo all boss.

If you can solo content then do it solo.

jaschacasadiob16_ESO

SakuraRush wrote: »

A possible solution would be an "avoid player" button so you don't get matched with them a second time.

This would be fantstic. I've been asking for it so many times. As a matter of fact, what we need is a black list. A real one. People you add here:

• Won't get grouped with you through the group fin tool.
• Won't be able to communicate to you. And viceversa.
• (Extra) Warns you if you join a trial/guild with any of your blacklisted IDs.

Not that hard to implement: a simple JSON where an only ID (key) has a list of online IDs associated to it (value). The group find tool simply checks there is no matching between the 4 IDs.

People would be able to queue up as they won't.
Whoever doesn't like cheaters will be spared the sufference in the future.

leepalmer95

SakuraRush wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

mikemacon wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

sudaki_eso wrote: »

Its not really something ZOS can do about it or fix the "problem", its the community that creates the problem. People who will use a fake role and then telling you that you dont need a tank and so on - yup, you might not need one, you can even solo a lot of dungeons but please, if you have this kind of mindset do it with guildies or solo the damn dungeon. Do not pug with this selfish mindset!
There are some people in my guild that acutally will tell people to queue as a fake tank to get a group faster if they want to farm for gear. After numerous arguments about it and telling them that no one like fake tanks i gave up after a while. I run with guildies and if i pug i will vote to kick the fake tank if its clear that the group will have difficulties finishing the dungeon.

I queued the other day to get a shadowrend helm. I got into a group with a cp 100 and two 200's. They all had no idea what they was doing and was barely doing any dmg at all.

So yeah my dps stam sorc had to pretty much deal all the dps and tank at the same time. It was easy tbh.

They died on the last boss within 10s and i solo'd the entire boss on my own. They all said thank you after the dungeon because they couldn't do it on their own.

You say selfish yet i seemed to be helpful to them.

I never true random queue people to actually dps, i'm not queueing as an actual tank again and being in an easy vet dungeon for 3 hours because the dps dont have a 5 figure combined dps.

Nah.

I say “selfish”.

You didn’t queue up as a tank with the thought of helping people through the content.

You did it because you didn’t think you should have to wait in the DD queue.

Nice try, though...

To be honest i don't really care.

I carried the run either way.

Lets be honest you really don't need a tank/ heal in most of the vet dungeons anyway when 1 dd can pretty much solo all boss.

If you can solo content then do it solo.

Why? When i can help others through it at the same time?

You're making it sound like helpings others through the content is bad.

Nightfall12

No

What we need, is a system that auto taunts for you if you queue as a tank....

And.....
If you die the enemies will stand over you and Tbag you

Samadhi

leepalmer95 wrote: »

sudaki_eso wrote: »

Its not really something ZOS can do about it or fix the "problem", its the community that creates the problem. People who will use a fake role and then telling you that you dont need a tank and so on - yup, you might not need one, you can even solo a lot of dungeons but please, if you have this kind of mindset do it with guildies or solo the damn dungeon. Do not pug with this selfish mindset!
There are some people in my guild that acutally will tell people to queue as a fake tank to get a group faster if they want to farm for gear. After numerous arguments about it and telling them that no one like fake tanks i gave up after a while. I run with guildies and if i pug i will vote to kick the fake tank if its clear that the group will have difficulties finishing the dungeon.

I queued the other day to get a shadowrend helm. I got into a group with a cp 100 and two 200's. They all had no idea what they was doing and was barely doing any dmg at all.

So yeah my dps stam sorc had to pretty much deal all the dps and tank at the same time. It was easy tbh.

They died on the last boss within 10s and i solo'd the entire boss on my own. They all said thank you after the dungeon because they couldn't do it on their own.

You say selfish yet i seemed to be helpful to them.
...

It seems as tho this scenario could have played out the exact same by running the dungeon having queued as a damage role
is there something particular about queuing as a tank that makes it advantageous for the groups you join?