Crown Crates - Do you consider it a form of gambling?

Pajor

Just curious what others thought about it.

VaranisArano

I consider it an RNG chance to get what I want.

I'd be happy to spend crowns to get what I want. I'm not happy to spend crowns on a chance to get what I want.

That's why I don't buy crown crates! The only ones I've gotten or will ever get are the free ones.


(If it were legally gambling, perhaps ZOS would have to actually release the odds of getting the reward tiers so we know for sure they aren't monkeying with the odds. Its a sad thing when my state lottery is more transparent about my odds of winning/losing.)

TerraDewBerry

Yup, to me, it's straight up gambling. It also has the added negative impact that people who might pour more money into it than they can realistically afford don't even have a chance of getting a real life return of the money they have spent.

For example, someone goes to play the slot machines... they gamble away maybe 1000 dollars trying to hit the jackpot. They at least have some incredibly slim..slim.. itty.. bitty chance to win some of their money back. With ESO's gamble crates, you will never see a real life return of any portion of the money you sink into them.

DeadlyRecluse

It doesn't really matter whether or not I consider it gambling. The relevant legal definitions make it clearly not gambling. The psychological definition makes it clearly gambling.

A key issue in every discussion about crown crates and gambling is people applying the psychological definition and trying to make legal arguments.

idk

This topic has been discussed to great lengths. A simple google search will permit you to read comments from a great many making a new thread not needed. Though I understand some think it is great to create a new thread regardless.

So I will say, it is plain fact that crown crates do not fall under gambling regulation in most countries (I expect there are a few that do outlaw most everything). Also plain fact, this will not be changing anytime soon regardless of empty hype some try to drum up.

Runs

I do yes. But I also consider guild raffles a form of gambling.

I think @DeadlyRecluse hit the nail on the head with his response though.

Elsonso

Calling them Gambling is tricky because there is a legal definition of that word, and a casual meaning. I do not think they meet the legal definition of gambling. I do think they are casual gambling, though.

I have debated how to classify them. ZOS has never given details about how the game is played. Players are just supposed to buy them and enjoy the ride, without consideration for what is driving the selection of rewards. I don't think they are totally random. I strongly suspect that they have limits on the quantities of some prizes. For that reason, I choose to consider them to be a form of electronic pull tab.

P.S. - Just say NO to Crown Crates.

Acrolas

No. Because;

1. The itemized crown value of the rewards from a crate were designed from the beginning to be more than the 400 crowns you put into it. So there's always a net gain, however slight, from the system. This eliminates any element of risk, which is different than simply not liking the random rewards you receive.
"This Thursday, we'll be introducing the first season of Crown Crates to the ESO Crown Store. Crown Crates are purchased through the Crown Store, and contain a randomized selection of useful consumables and collectibles that are valued more than the price of a single crate."
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/25871

2. Crowns have no monetary value. This is the part that disqualifies the entire gambling argument.
"Because it is a license, Virtual Currency is not property in which You have any ownership right, title, or other interest. Any Virtual Currency balance shown in Your Account does not constitute a real currency balance or reflect any monetary value.
"https://account.elderscrollsonline.com/terms-of-service

Orticia

Yes, in the sense that you might spend real money on a crate to gamble on getting what you wanted. You have your own money at stake and might get or might not get your moneys worth.

Then again for me personally the crates are not gambling at all by this definition. I don't put anything in myself, aka real money, so I can't actually loose only gain stuff from the free crates. That does not make it any more gambling then the loot table of any mob I kill, daily quest I do or node I mine. Just game RNG.

Gprime31

Anytime you’re not guaranteed an item you pay for with money, it’s gambling. Games of chance always are.

K1NGPALM3R1

I wouldn't class it as gambling as such when the crates are given free in daily rewards etc. If you're paying for them yourself then yes. I see it some guilds im currently in and have been in the past when the state donate 4.999k for your chance to win. That's straight up Vegas Baby!

OrdoHermetica

Yes, though not by the legal definition of it, since there's degrees of separation between actual money and the virtual goods. That's one of the reasons why MMOs with loot box/gambling systems are careful to have a proxy in-game currency, i.e Crowns, rather than directly charging real-world money for randomized digital goods. Also, it's often difficult to specify the real-world value of a virtual good within a video game.

But yes, it's absolutely gambling in everything but name. It's spending real-world money on a randomized chance to acquire digital goods, with odds that are decidedly skewed in favor of the house (as seen in the drop rate tracking app). It utilizes traditional gambling hooks and exploits addictive tendencies in players.

K1NGPALM3R1 wrote: »

I wouldn't class it as gambling as such when the crates are given free in daily rewards etc. If you're paying for them yourself then yes. I see it some guilds im currently in and have been in the past when the state donate 4.999k for your chance to win. That's straight up Vegas Baby!

Casinos, video poker machines, and online gambling sites will also regularly give out a handful of free spins/rolls/etc. It's a pretty well-established hook. The first taste is always free and all that.

moonio

If you see it as a means to get crown gems because you want some things in the crown crate store then no.

Also if you are starting out on a new server and don't have access to all your cool mounts, nice costumes etc etc, then it can be a good way to stock up on pretty things..

If you are only buying crown crates to get an Apex reward then yes it is a form of gambling..

Legally ZOS are in a grey area here because of the crown gem aspect... they can get away with it..

Aiko

Well yes.

The reason why i'm okay with let's say the Looboxes from Overwatch is..

You can get 3 free lootboxes each week by playing Arcade.
You get a free lootbox for each level up.
You also get 1x free lootbox every event and for each new game mode.
They are pretty cheap to buy.

1 OW Lootbox = 0,99 USD/Euro

Also the chance of getting duplicates is rather low. Unless you already got nearly everything.
Also not sure if that's intended but so far i always got at least 1 Legendary Skin from lootboxes i bought with RL money.
(Usually buy 10 at a time - meaning at least 1 of them has a legendary skin)

Currency - always had enough to buy at least 1 Legendary Event Skin (3k Currency)
And i can buy ALL skins with it!

---

In ESO none of this is the case.
Yes you can get some free crates through the daily rewards now, but with the drop chance on the things you really want that's nothing.

There is no way to obtain them otherwise apart from paying.. a lot.

1 Crown Crate = Bloody 4,26 USD (4,26x(ish) times the price of OW Lootbox)

As for duplicates. I got the Sylvan Nixad 4 times already.
I bought this pet back when it was available for purchase! Why waste my crown crate cards on this?!

Crown Gems - spending 40 USD on Crown Crates nets you aroud ~100-120 Gems from my experience.
For 40 USD i want at least enough Gems to buy a APEX Mount!
The worst is.. the really nice Apex Mounts you can't even buy with Crown Gems!
You have to rely on mother luck.

So yeah.. Crown Crates suck.

----

Basically.. you don't have to spend a single dime on lootboxes in OW and are still able to get everything just by leveling up and playing Arcade.

Total opposite in ESO.

redspecter23

For me, it's gambling if I spend money on it. Any of the free crates that I receive are just RNG boxes. I put no direct monetary cost into it, so in my mind, it's not gambling. If I were the kind of person that buys crown packs and then turns those crowns into crates hoping for a certain drop, I'd then consider it gambling. Definitions will vary from person to person. This is just my opinion.

SydneyGrey

No, because you always get something for your money, even if it's something you don't want.

Acrolas

redspecter23 wrote: »

If I were the kind of person that buys crown packs and then turns those crowns into crates hoping for a certain drop, I'd then consider it gambling. Definitions will vary from person to person. This is just my opinion.

But that's it, basically. Some people are trying to fuse together the legal definition of gambling with a more subjective one built around speculation. But by the time you get to the point of using crowns on anything, you've consented to detaching a real world currency value from the crowns and the digital item(s) you traded them in for.

That token person going around crying about $20 costumes and $40 mounts does not understand the TOS he or she agreed to. But it's a lot easier to stir buyer's remorse and other strong emotions in yourself and others by going the route that 'you wasted $150 on crates'. No, you spent $150 on a license to redeem 21,000 crowns on the account you created.

Then there's really no difference between buying 4 large packs of crates and not getting what you wanted, and spending 21,000 crowns on gifts for a significant other who breaks up with you a few days later. Both could have had far more desirable outcomes, but the write-off didn't occur at the outcome. It occurred at the lease agreement.


It's not ZOS's responsibility to change the terms I agreed to to make me feel better. It's my responsibility to understand the terms I agreed to so I can make responsible and informed decisions.

SlippyCheeze

Acrolas wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

If I were the kind of person that buys crown packs and then turns those crowns into crates hoping for a certain drop, I'd then consider it gambling. Definitions will vary from person to person. This is just my opinion.

But that's it, basically. Some people are trying to fuse together the legal definition of gambling with a more subjective one built around speculation. But by the time you get to the point of using crowns on anything, you've consented to detaching a real world currency value from the crowns and the digital item(s) you traded them in for.

Well, reasonably, "is this gambling" is a grey area. The law is basically someone saying "eh, this is a satisfactory cut-off point on that spectrum that meets our social, economic, and political goals well enough, and which we can define solidly." So ... your idea that this is frequently about the social definition, not the legal definition, is accurate, but not so relevant, I think.

Anyway, to your note that paying real world money for tokens, and then tokens for games, I'd point you toward casinos, which mostly deal in exactly that system. You purchase tokens, gamble with tokens, and can eventually redeem tokens for cash. They are, like crowns, a cash-equivalent, and they are definitely considered gambling.

The best argument there, I think, would be that things commonly agreed to be gambling, despite token use (eg: roulette) are different from the crates because you cannot redeem crowns, or the things they purchase, for real world money, while you can redeem casino tokens for real world money.

That said, I have some confidence that a casino which operated on the same basis: cash to tokens, tokens during games, but which could only redeem the tokens for goods, or services, and no real world money, would still be considered gambling.

Meanwhile, the same system for virtual items is ambiguous, simply because we have a good model for assigning value to real world items and services, but we do not have a good model for virtual goods at this time. They are, at heart, too new for us to have really worked out how to value them.

(IMO, the model will eventually settle using the same time/money equivalence that the real world uses: items are valued on either their time-value, sometimes augmented by their status-value, regardless of being virtual or real. However, I'm not a policy expert in this area...)

vometia

I would say, yes, they're absolutely a form of gambling, and the "free" ESO+ dailies are just as absolutely the classic way to try to get people hooked. You pay money, you get random stuff with the expectation that there'll be a payout and there usually isn't: looks like gambling to me. I know that there has been a defence that the expectation doesn't have a financial value therefore it's not gambling but ISTR that was comprehensively shot down in that it does have a value. I don't recall whether or not that involved the possibility of it being independently bought or resold, but even if that weren't the case, it gets a bit close to being legal only on a technicality rather than within the spirit of the law.

Acrolas

SlippyCheeze wrote: »

The best argument there, I think, would be that things commonly agreed to be gambling, despite token use (eg: roulette) are different from the crates because you cannot redeem crowns, or the things they purchase, for real world money, while you can redeem casino tokens for real world money.

That said, I have some confidence that a casino which operated on the same basis: cash to tokens, tokens during games, but which could only redeem the tokens for goods, or services, and no real world money, would still be considered gambling.

You're correct on the second half, because those goods and services would still have a declared real economic value that would have to be reported on a tax return as earned income. Regardless of whether the tokens were paid for or if they were complimentary.

vometia wrote: »

I know that there has been a defence that the expectation doesn't have a financial value therefore it's not gambling but ISTR that was comprehensively shot down in that it does have a value. I don't recall whether or not that involved the possibility of it being independently bought or resold, but even if that weren't the case, it gets a bit close to being legal only on a technicality rather than within the spirit of the law.

I can play the ISTR game, too.
I seem to recall that in the pile of earned income calculations I've made on my returns in the two years since crates went live, precisely none of them had to do with crate earnings. Nothing redeemed in the crown store has any real economic value, regardless of the method of acquisition.

And if we're being completely honest, if I had to report crate earnings as earned income each year, I'd be less likely to use the crate service. Every free crate would impact next year's return a little bit. That's what the 'But it's gambling' side doesn't seem to grasp. If they 'win', the crate system doesn't go away. Those items don't magically flow back into the crown store. The system just becomes more selective. It becomes a luxury for those willing and able to pay any required taxes on their good luck.

And for some countries and states, every crate, even the free ones, could possibly be shut off as an option altogether if ZOS seeks to streamline the earnings declaration process. You don't have to like crates. You really don't. But some of us have weighed the current system against its alternatives. Valueless and random digital fluff doesn't seem so bad.

DanteYoda

How anyone could not consider it gambling is beyond me... Imo the only people that don't consider it gambling are gamblers and people with a hand in the gambling trade making money out of them...

Sharee

Spending something of value on an uncertain outcome = gambling.

Morgul667

kind of

vometia

DanteYoda wrote: »

How anyone could not consider it gambling is beyond me... Imo the only people that don't consider it gambling are gamblers and people with a hand in the gambling trade making money out of them...

I guess ultimately it doesn't really matter what we think anyway: I think it's a reasonable assumption that the outcome will be that loot crates and the like will end up being widely regulated at some point, and often what ends up happening is that the people seen as the "cause" of the regulation being enacted get fallen on very heavily. It would probably be prudent for companies like Zenimax to anticipate that outcome, and not doing so or risking leaving it too late is, well, a bit of a gamble.

sdtlc

Yes, i do consider them as gambling

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AlienSlof

redspecter23 wrote: »

For me, it's gambling if I spend money on it. Any of the free crates that I receive are just RNG boxes. I put no direct monetary cost into it, so in my mind, it's not gambling. If I were the kind of person that buys crown packs and then turns those crowns into crates hoping for a certain drop, I'd then consider it gambling. Definitions will vary from person to person. This is just my opinion.

^ Pretty much this. ^

I would never spend my money on them (as a retired oldie I can't afford to toss money away like that for something I probably don't want.)

However, I do rather like the free ones and occasionally have been lucky - and when not so lucky, I'm accumulating gems nicely for when something comes along that I do want.

smacx250

Something you can ask yourself to help understand if something is gambling or not: If I keep playing, is there any chance that I could "win it all back"? "Yes" = gambling. "No" = spending.

Tai-Chi

Answering subjectively, I would say; "Yes, Crown Crates are gambling and not just a form of gambling". Putting it at its lowest, Crown Crates are a 'form' of gambling.

The problem in answering the question in a general way is that each country has its own legislation governing what falls under the umbrella of gambling and what activities are excluded and under what circumstances.

DanteYoda

Definitely fits the second and imo fits the first as well.

gamble
ˈɡamb(ə)l/Submit
verb
gerund or present participle: gambling
1.
play games of chance for money; bet.

2.
take risky action in the hope of a desired result.

dodgehopper_ESO

Yes.

Maryal

It's not a simple yes or no answer. The number of free crown crates players get certainly can't be considered gambling. If a player wants additional loot boxes, they can purchase them with crowns ... but you can get so many free crown crates it kind of dampens the desire to spend money for them. Furthermore, if you subscribe then you get free crowns month. You can save these and 'buy' crown crates with them ... so is that considered gambling? Is it really considered a purchase at that point?

Given that much of the contents of crown crates (free or purchased) can be turned into gems, and that you can use these gems to purchase specific items you want (no 'chance' involved when purchasing items with gems), can it really be said that this is a form of gambling? There are people who don't care what they get in crown crates, because they are more interested in what they can give back in exchange for gems.

Interesting ...