GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Fighting an enemy in ESO too often misses the mark of making me feel like I am fighting against a cool monster in a fantasy world. Instead, I feel like I am fighting against a clock (the timers and cooldowns of my own skills), with my success against the clock often determining my success against the cool monster who merely appears as a backdrop in my fight against time.
Enemy interaction mechanics (how a player fights against an enemy) in ESO, especially in end game content, highly encourage "rotations" that reward players for precise clock management of timers and cooldowns. This heavy design investment into clock management means that instead of providing players with more interactive ways to display skill against an enemy, such as aiming a precise shot into an enemy weak spot, or dodging the sword swings of a hulking boss, or utilizing clever tactics like environmental traps to our advantage, our "skill" is highly measured by how we manage timers and cooldowns.
Clock management does not feel immersive.
Please. Please. Please. Consider reducing the importance of "rotations," timers, and cooldowns, and instead focus more on interactive combat mechanics that still require skill but feel more like we are fighting the monster instead of our own best time management. Examples of more interactive combat mechanics, some of which already appear in game are:
- aiming
- blocking
- dodging
- shielding
- tough to hit enemy weak spots
- environmental traps
- environmental/tactical advantages (such as high ground)
- physical teamwork (such as throwing an ally onto a boss' back to attack a weak spot)
- team splitting up to achieve ritual objectives that weaken boss
- targeted tactical decisions (such as team focusing on one of boss' legs to cut it off)
- choices/sacrifices (such as a teammate sacrificing themselves to destroy the boss' weapon to make fight easier for the team - if you choose to resurrect the teammate, then the boss gets their weapon back)
There are immersive and more interactive ways (many of which already exist in game) that players can display skill in fighting enemies without the primary skill being a fight against the clock. Thank you.
GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Bringing this back up because it is still relevant.
VaranisArano wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Bringing this back up because it is still relevant.
And still just as impossible to implement on a game-wide scale without completely redoing the combat system. Which, judging by their recent comments, ZOS isn't interested in doing. Plus, the more teamwork oriented ZOS makes the new end-game content, it gets that much harder for random groups to complete - thus minimizing the market for it.
If you want "immersive" and non rotation-based combat for overland questing, you can do that on your own without needing ZOS to change how the game works.
Also, its against forum rules to bump your own thread without actually adding any content to it.
GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Fighting an enemy in ESO too often misses the mark of making me feel like I am fighting against a cool monster in a fantasy world. Instead, I feel like I am fighting against a clock (the timers and cooldowns of my own skills), with my success against the clock often determining my success against the cool monster who merely appears as a backdrop in my fight against time.
.
GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Fighting an enemy in ESO too often misses the mark of making me feel like I am fighting against a cool monster in a fantasy world. Instead, I feel like I am fighting against a clock (the timers and cooldowns of my own skills), with my success against the clock often determining my success against the cool monster who merely appears as a backdrop in my fight against time.
.
What I placed in bold does not make sense. There are no CDs on the use of skills outside of the GCD before we can use the next skill which any game has. The only timers would be on DoTs which is kind of obvious and something not really worthy of complaining about.
Going on to the comment about reducing the importance of rotations makes me think this is OPs first MMORPG or was not very good in other MMORPGs. Pretty much every game has a rotation and ESO has much less of one. In other games if one does not follow the meta rotation their dps significantly fails. It really is that simple.
Since you have quit your sub and pretty much do not play the game anymore I hope you find something that offers the less challenge you are looking for per your other thread, and this one.
GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Fighting an enemy in ESO too often misses the mark of making me feel like I am fighting against a cool monster in a fantasy world. Instead, I feel like I am fighting against a clock (the timers and cooldowns of my own skills), with my success against the clock often determining my success against the cool monster who merely appears as a backdrop in my fight against time.
.
What I placed in bold does not make sense. There are no CDs on the use of skills outside of the GCD before we can use the next skill which any game has. The only timers would be on DoTs which is kind of obvious and something not really worthy of complaining about.
Going on to the comment about reducing the importance of rotations makes me think this is OPs first MMORPG or was not very good in other MMORPGs. Pretty much every game has a rotation and ESO has much less of one. In other games if one does not follow the meta rotation their dps significantly fails. It really is that simple.
Since you have quit your sub and pretty much do not play the game anymore I hope you find something that offers the less challenge you are looking for per your other thread, and this one.
I think you're misunderstanding what I am talking about. You imply that I am looking for something "less challenging," but what I am looking for has nothing to do with difficulty.
Rotations get stale, and I simply don't find them to be all that fun or immersive. Do I understand them and use them? Of course, because I had to use rotations in order to complete VMA, and run dungeons and explore trials with friends.
However, I see ESO having more potential beyond rotations. Do I want to see rotations removed? No. I want to see alternative ways to play that make the game more fun and immersive for people who get bored with rotations. I get that you disagree, but you seem to be attacking my posts with assumptions that I think the game is too challenging.
GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Fighting an enemy in ESO too often misses the mark of making me feel like I am fighting against a cool monster in a fantasy world. Instead, I feel like I am fighting against a clock (the timers and cooldowns of my own skills), with my success against the clock often determining my success against the cool monster who merely appears as a backdrop in my fight against time.
.
What I placed in bold does not make sense. There are no CDs on the use of skills outside of the GCD before we can use the next skill which any game has. The only timers would be on DoTs which is kind of obvious and something not really worthy of complaining about.
Going on to the comment about reducing the importance of rotations makes me think this is OPs first MMORPG or was not very good in other MMORPGs. Pretty much every game has a rotation and ESO has much less of one. In other games if one does not follow the meta rotation their dps significantly fails. It really is that simple.
Since you have quit your sub and pretty much do not play the game anymore I hope you find something that offers the less challenge you are looking for per your other thread, and this one.
I think you're misunderstanding what I am talking about. You imply that I am looking for something "less challenging," but what I am looking for has nothing to do with difficulty.
Rotations get stale, and I simply don't find them to be all that fun or immersive. Do I understand them and use them? Of course, because I had to use rotations in order to complete VMA, and run dungeons and explore trials with friends.
However, I see ESO having more potential beyond rotations. Do I want to see rotations removed? No. I want to see alternative ways to play that make the game more fun and immersive for people who get bored with rotations. I get that you disagree, but you seem to be attacking my posts with assumptions that I think the game is too challenging.
Oh, no. I do understand what you are speaking to. I highlighted your focus you repeated in this that I quoted.
What is funny is you quoted me stating that every decent MMORPG has rotations. They are even more required than in ESO since any decent player would know that most games require you to use certain skills to gain procs that enhance the damage of a final skill. Otherwise your damage is in the toilet.
Zos got away from that and your are still complaining which I find really interesting. LOL. With Zos it is much less about that and just keeping your DoTs down and use that filler.
I guess MMORPGs are not for everyone since you are complaining about what is part of every decent MMORPG.
Again, I hope you find something more to your liking and less taxing.
GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Fighting an enemy in ESO too often misses the mark of making me feel like I am fighting against a cool monster in a fantasy world. Instead, I feel like I am fighting against a clock (the timers and cooldowns of my own skills), with my success against the clock often determining my success against the cool monster who merely appears as a backdrop in my fight against time.
.
What I placed in bold does not make sense. There are no CDs on the use of skills outside of the GCD before we can use the next skill which any game has. The only timers would be on DoTs which is kind of obvious and something not really worthy of complaining about.
Going on to the comment about reducing the importance of rotations makes me think this is OPs first MMORPG or was not very good in other MMORPGs. Pretty much every game has a rotation and ESO has much less of one. In other games if one does not follow the meta rotation their dps significantly fails. It really is that simple.
Since you have quit your sub and pretty much do not play the game anymore I hope you find something that offers the less challenge you are looking for per your other thread, and this one.
I think you're misunderstanding what I am talking about. You imply that I am looking for something "less challenging," but what I am looking for has nothing to do with difficulty.
Rotations get stale, and I simply don't find them to be all that fun or immersive. Do I understand them and use them? Of course, because I had to use rotations in order to complete VMA, and run dungeons and explore trials with friends.
However, I see ESO having more potential beyond rotations. Do I want to see rotations removed? No. I want to see alternative ways to play that make the game more fun and immersive for people who get bored with rotations. I get that you disagree, but you seem to be attacking my posts with assumptions that I think the game is too challenging.
Oh, no. I do understand what you are speaking to. I highlighted your focus you repeated in this that I quoted.
What is funny is you quoted me stating that every decent MMORPG has rotations. They are even more required than in ESO since any decent player would know that most games require you to use certain skills to gain procs that enhance the damage of a final skill. Otherwise your damage is in the toilet.
Zos got away from that and your are still complaining which I find really interesting. LOL. With Zos it is much less about that and just keeping your DoTs down and use that filler.
I guess MMORPGs are not for everyone since you are complaining about what is part of every decent MMORPG.
Again, I hope you find something more to your liking and less taxing.
You seem staunch in defining ESO as an MMORPG, but the direction of the game and comments made by the game director himself seem to muddy the water:
https://www.pcgamesn.com/the-elder-scrolls-online-tamriel-unlimited/the-elder-scrolls-online-MMORPG
The article discusses the move in a direction that made the game "more open and [it] essentially feels like a console RPG."
While I get your desire to strictly define ESO as an MMORPG, it does not appear that the definition comfortably fits . It is articles like this and comments made by the game director that give me hope that the game will continue to feel more immersive (specifically regarding enemy interactions). Hopefully that can happen while also maintaining the rotation-based gameplay that you, and I'm sure many others, seem to enjoy. More options are often nice to have.
Oh boy. I agree with the OP and this response is exactly what I would say. I PvP, because I don't like rotations either. They are not absent from PvP, but they are less important. That said, I feel that the class design of magsorc and warden also makes you look inwards, and focus on your rotations, even in PvP.GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Fighting an enemy in ESO too often misses the mark of making me feel like I am fighting against a cool monster in a fantasy world. Instead, I feel like I am fighting against a clock (the timers and cooldowns of my own skills), with my success against the clock often determining my success against the cool monster who merely appears as a backdrop in my fight against time.
Enemy interaction mechanics (how a player fights against an enemy) in ESO, especially in end game content, highly encourage "rotations" that reward players for precise clock management of timers and cooldowns. This heavy design investment into clock management means that instead of providing players with more interactive ways to display skill against an enemy, such as aiming a precise shot into an enemy weak spot, or dodging the sword swings of a hulking boss, or utilizing clever tactics like environmental traps to our advantage, our "skill" is highly measured by how we manage timers and cooldowns.
Clock management does not feel immersive.
Please. Please. Please. Consider reducing the importance of "rotations," timers, and cooldowns, and instead focus more on interactive combat mechanics that still require skill but feel more like we are fighting the monster instead of our own best time management. Examples of more interactive combat mechanics, some of which already appear in game are:
- aiming
- blocking
- dodging
- shielding
- tough to hit enemy weak spots
- environmental traps
- environmental/tactical advantages (such as high ground)
- physical teamwork (such as throwing an ally onto a boss' back to attack a weak spot)
- team splitting up to achieve ritual objectives that weaken boss
- targeted tactical decisions (such as team focusing on one of boss' legs to cut it off)
- choices/sacrifices (such as a teammate sacrificing themselves to destroy the boss' weapon to make fight easier for the team - if you choose to resurrect the teammate, then the boss gets their weapon back)
There are immersive and more interactive ways (many of which already exist in game) that players can display skill in fighting enemies without the primary skill being a fight against the clock. Thank you.
Agree, its why I prefer PvP mainly. Its more dynamic vs Main boss, dots up, spammable, OK phase 1, run to X, kill X, back to main boss, repeat.
I hate rotations as well in this game. My first mmorpg that owned my life for a long time was neverwinter and there you dont need to use that much skills and difficult rotations like here, except one class.
For me in this game, playing a pve dps is like playing on a piano, and I am very bad at it. No just rotation, but weaving, animation cancelling bar swap..
This will never change tho, because there is a second bar, long rotations will stay here forever I think, at least if we talk about endgame pve dps for vet HM stuff.
I like to use only 3 main skills on my dps characters +1 healing skill + 1 ultimate and thats all. So I can use Q-E-R keys for my main abilities. Usually its a gap closer, main attacking skill and executioner.
If you like to use only a few skills you still have options to have cross pvp-pve character that can do vet HM dungeons. You can be a magicka damage dealer with shield and sword, so on 1st bar you have pvp setup what can be used in open world pve, on the second bar you have a tank setup and can tank vet hm. You won't be the best, but it can do the job.
At the moment I use a ranged magicka character that use only 1 single damage skill for pvp, but still it has good burst, sustain and i am far from being a glass cannon. On my second bar I am a healer and can succesfully heal vet dungeons with the same dps gear. I can also solo world bosses with it.
So, I understand what you wish for the game, but it will not happen. Long rotations will stay, but as there is a great diversity in armor sets and skills, you can more or less easily find a simple, but still strong and enjoyable solution for yourself that can be universally good for almost everything, maybe except no death runs or veteran trials.
I hate rotations as well in this game. My first mmorpg that owned my life for a long time was neverwinter and there you dont need to use that much skills and difficult rotations like here, except one class.
For me in this game, playing a pve dps is like playing on a piano, and I am very bad at it. No just rotation, but weaving, animation cancelling bar swap..
This will never change tho, because there is a second bar, long rotations will stay here forever I think, at least if we talk about endgame pve dps for vet HM stuff.
I like to use only 3 main skills on my dps characters +1 healing skill + 1 ultimate and thats all. So I can use Q-E-R keys for my main abilities. Usually its a gap closer, main attacking skill and executioner.
If you like to use only a few skills you still have options to have cross pvp-pve character that can do vet HM dungeons. You can be a magicka damage dealer with shield and sword, so on 1st bar you have pvp setup what can be used in open world pve, on the second bar you have a tank setup and can tank vet hm. You won't be the best, but it can do the job.
At the moment I use a ranged magicka character that use only 1 single damage skill for pvp, but still it has good burst, sustain and i am far from being a glass cannon. On my second bar I am a healer and can succesfully heal vet dungeons with the same dps gear. I can also solo world bosses with it.
So, I understand what you wish for the game, but it will not happen. Long rotations will stay, but as there is a great diversity in armor sets and skills, you can more or less easily find a simple, but still strong and enjoyable solution for yourself that can be universally good for almost everything, maybe except no death runs or veteran trials.
rotations and weaving sell razr synapses. macro recording mice keyboards and controllers are so common its impossible not to believe they are in common use. This is why everyone rails against reactive combat.
GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Fighting an enemy in ESO too often misses the mark of making me feel like I am fighting against a cool monster in a fantasy world. Instead, I feel like I am fighting against a clock (the timers and cooldowns of my own skills), with my success against the clock often determining my success against the cool monster who merely appears as a backdrop in my fight against time.
Enemy interaction mechanics (how a player fights against an enemy) in ESO, especially in end game content, highly encourage "rotations" that reward players for precise clock management of timers and cooldowns. This heavy design investment into clock management means that instead of providing players with more interactive ways to display skill against an enemy, such as aiming a precise shot into an enemy weak spot, or dodging the sword swings of a hulking boss, or utilizing clever tactics like environmental traps to our advantage, our "skill" is highly measured by how we manage timers and cooldowns.
Clock management does not feel immersive.
Please. Please. Please. Consider reducing the importance of "rotations," timers, and cooldowns, and instead focus more on interactive combat mechanics that still require skill but feel more like we are fighting the monster instead of our own best time management. Examples of more interactive combat mechanics, some of which already appear in game are:
- aiming
- blocking
- dodging
- shielding
- tough to hit enemy weak spots
- environmental traps
- environmental/tactical advantages (such as high ground)
- physical teamwork (such as throwing an ally onto a boss' back to attack a weak spot)
- team splitting up to achieve ritual objectives that weaken boss
- targeted tactical decisions (such as team focusing on one of boss' legs to cut it off)
- choices/sacrifices (such as a teammate sacrificing themselves to destroy the boss' weapon to make fight easier for the team - if you choose to resurrect the teammate, then the boss gets their weapon back)
There are immersive and more interactive ways (many of which already exist in game) that players can display skill in fighting enemies without the primary skill being a fight against the clock. Thank you.
Edit on 11/23/18:
I want to be clear that I am not asking for nor suggesting a complete overhaul to combat, but rather tweaks that give players an alternative to clock management play.
Typical_T_ReX wrote: »I want to be clear nothing in this post fits ESO please keep it out of the game I enjoy playing.