4.1.3 Stam dk buff

KingLogix

Can we get a stam dk buff? We currently are pigeon holed to run heroic and revered slash. Heroic slash recently had its snare reduced to 4 seconds, and reverb is about to get its defile reduced to 4 seconds.

frostz417

Reverb was 10 seconds of major defile. 6 seconds for cc cool down. So hitting reverb every 6 seconds is essentially constant cc with 100% uptime on major defile. Heroic is a 4 second snare with minor maim. Honestly stamDK’s are just fine how they are... especially with the fact that they can apply so many debuff’s and be extremely tanky. A good stamDK can perma defile,snare, and maim their opponent while keeping up pressure.

ak_pvp

frostz417 wrote: »

Reverb was 10 seconds of major defile. 6 seconds for cc cool down. So hitting reverb every 6 seconds is essentially constant cc with 100% uptime on major defile. Heroic is a 4 second snare with minor maim. Honestly stamDK’s are just fine how they are... especially with the fact that they can apply so many debuff’s and be extremely tanky. A good stamDK can perma defile,snare, and maim their opponent while keeping up pressure.

Debuffs... ehh. Its something everyone else can do too. Just doesn't because they have better options.

Tanky. Lol no. Actually tanky sacrifices a lot. Stam DK tanky is moderately survivable, its not close to warden level tanky (which has more damage and mobility at the same time) And being "tanky" is a poor method of survivability in this patch. Defiles, sloads/bleeds and rune spammers make it protect little, whilst costing a lot. Hence shield/cloak builds are stronger.

ak_pvp

Stam deep breath. Phys and poison. Instead of restoring stats based on people hit at end, it increases the damage of the direct attacks for 2s.

Wings: 4s immunity to snares. Also fall damage immunity. (Willing to sacrifice reflect into deflect for the criers) So DK has some worth while mobility for such an expensive ability and a unique movement pattern like shade/streak.

Nox breath: Minor defile. Works like 2h light/heavy attacks, tagged on one target, and then those around them too. (Does full damage though)

Claw: 8m range.

Volatile armour: Poison damage (makes sense, poison spines) on return and AoE. Works with combustion and WOR. Costs mag and scales of highest stat, needs to cost mag because it is a utility and MDKs use it too, but unlike FOO, it'll be stronger for stam.

All of the changes will keep stamDKs tanky brawler theme especially deep breath, which would function as a beserker rage giving a dynamic and not too strong buff to a leap combo.

Xvorg

frostz417 wrote: »

Reverb was 10 seconds of major defile. 6 seconds for cc cool down. So hitting reverb every 6 seconds is essentially constant cc with 100% uptime on major defile. Heroic is a 4 second snare with minor maim. Honestly stamDK’s are just fine how they are... especially with the fact that they can apply so many debuff’s and be extremely tanky. A good stamDK can perma defile,snare, and maim their opponent while keeping up pressure.

There are some pots... I can't remember the name, that helped a lot with CC... regarding defile, it was just the same *** for everyone... and also there were 2 sets, something about these guys




Maybe... just maybe...

IAVITNI

ak_pvp wrote: »

Stam deep breath. Phys and poison. Instead of restoring stats based on people hit at end, it increases the damage of the direct attacks for 2s.

Wings: 4s immunity to snares. Also fall damage immunity. (Willing to sacrifice reflect into deflect for the criers) So DK has some worth while mobility for such an expensive ability and a unique movement pattern like shade/streak.

Nox breath: Minor defile. Works like 2h light/heavy attacks, tagged on one target, and then those around them too. (Does full damage though)

Claw: 8m range.

Volatile armour: Poison damage (makes sense, poison spines) on return and AoE. Works with combustion and WOR. Costs mag and scales of highest stat, needs to cost mag because it is a utility and MDKs use it too, but unlike FOO, it'll be stronger for stam.

All of the changes will keep stamDKs tanky brawler theme especially deep breath, which would function as a beserker rage giving a dynamic and not too strong buff to a leap combo.

Wings idea is cool. Maybe make Reflective Plate into Deflective Plate and keep Dragon Fire Scale. The reflect is a cool feature for DKs. But this way you can really go to town with Deflective.

Additionally I'd take your idea one step further and change Elder Dragon into a passive that deals AoE damage anytime you land based on time spent falling. This would be a buff to Leap and make dropping of towers into zergs a very unique experience for DKs. Obviously damage would have to be capped to prevent abuse but I think it would be really cool.

The other ideas are all QoL changes that would go a long way as well.

Although I don't think taking Deep Breath away is a good idea. That would probably cause a lot of backlash. Draw Essence is really nice in certain PvE situations.

ManDraKE

KingLogix wrote: »

Can we get a stam dk buff? We currently are pigeon holed to run heroic and revered slash. Heroic slash recently had its snare reduced to 4 seconds, and reverb is about to get its defile reduced to 4 seconds.

Heoric slash, dizzyswing, crushing weapon, rendering slashes, steel tornado ...... so, the same that every other stambuild in the game, except for surprise attack and jabs builds lol. Old argument that never made sense, specially now that DW&2h builds are widely used by many stamDKs

stamDK doesn't need any buffs, what they need is some QoL changes to some skills like depth breath noxious breath that are clumsy or too unreliable to use. But i woudn't call that a buff, just fixing the stuff that is already there.

Asking for more buffs to wings is hilarous, isn't already the best skill in the entire class? I would love to trade shuffle for wings in all my stam classes lol

ak_pvp

IAVITNI wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Stam deep breath. Phys and poison. Instead of restoring stats based on people hit at end, it increases the damage of the direct attacks for 2s.

Wings: 4s immunity to snares. Also fall damage immunity. (Willing to sacrifice reflect into deflect for the criers) So DK has some worth while mobility for such an expensive ability and a unique movement pattern like shade/streak.

Nox breath: Minor defile. Works like 2h light/heavy attacks, tagged on one target, and then those around them too. (Does full damage though)

Claw: 8m range.

Volatile armour: Poison damage (makes sense, poison spines) on return and AoE. Works with combustion and WOR. Costs mag and scales of highest stat, needs to cost mag because it is a utility and MDKs use it too, but unlike FOO, it'll be stronger for stam.

All of the changes will keep stamDKs tanky brawler theme especially deep breath, which would function as a beserker rage giving a dynamic and not too strong buff to a leap combo.

Wings idea is cool. Maybe make Reflective Plate into Deflective Plate and keep Dragon Fire Scale. The reflect is a cool feature for DKs. But this way you can really go to town with Deflective.

Additionally I'd take your idea one step further and change Elder Dragon into a passive that deals AoE damage anytime you land based on time spent falling. This would be a buff to Leap and make dropping of towers into zergs a very unique experience for DKs. Obviously damage would have to be capped to prevent abuse but I think it would be really cool.

The other ideas are all QoL changes that would go a long way as well.

Although I don't think taking Deep Breath away is a good idea. That would probably cause a lot of backlash. Draw Essence is really nice in certain PvE situations.

Deep breath the interrupt and stun morph which is kind of useless since interrupts have a cooldown and interrupting stuns at base. Draw essence is a decent ability and would still be mag.

templesus

Dee

ak_pvp wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Stam deep breath. Phys and poison. Instead of restoring stats based on people hit at end, it increases the damage of the direct attacks for 2s.

Wings: 4s immunity to snares. Also fall damage immunity. (Willing to sacrifice reflect into deflect for the criers) So DK has some worth while mobility for such an expensive ability and a unique movement pattern like shade/streak.

Nox breath: Minor defile. Works like 2h light/heavy attacks, tagged on one target, and then those around them too. (Does full damage though)

Claw: 8m range.

Volatile armour: Poison damage (makes sense, poison spines) on return and AoE. Works with combustion and WOR. Costs mag and scales of highest stat, needs to cost mag because it is a utility and MDKs use it too, but unlike FOO, it'll be stronger for stam.

All of the changes will keep stamDKs tanky brawler theme especially deep breath, which would function as a beserker rage giving a dynamic and not too strong buff to a leap combo.

Wings idea is cool. Maybe make Reflective Plate into Deflective Plate and keep Dragon Fire Scale. The reflect is a cool feature for DKs. But this way you can really go to town with Deflective.

Additionally I'd take your idea one step further and change Elder Dragon into a passive that deals AoE damage anytime you land based on time spent falling. This would be a buff to Leap and make dropping of towers into zergs a very unique experience for DKs. Obviously damage would have to be capped to prevent abuse but I think it would be really cool.

The other ideas are all QoL changes that would go a long way as well.

Although I don't think taking Deep Breath away is a good idea. That would probably cause a lot of backlash. Draw Essence is really nice in certain PvE situations.

Deep breath the interrupt and stun morph which is kind of useless since interrupts have a cooldown and interrupting stuns at base. Draw essence is a decent ability and would still be mag.

Deep breath is used far too much in PvE. You’ll get major backlash if that morph is changed. Best to look for ways to buff the class without nerfing PvE at the same time.

Narvuntien

Should Buff Molten Weapons to make up for the nerf to Heavy attack damage that has happened in recent patches.

Ragnarock41

ManDraKE wrote: »

KingLogix wrote: »

Can we get a stam dk buff? We currently are pigeon holed to run heroic and revered slash. Heroic slash recently had its snare reduced to 4 seconds, and reverb is about to get its defile reduced to 4 seconds.

Heoric slash, dizzyswing, crushing weapon, rendering slashes, steel tornado ...... so, the same that every other stambuild in the game, except for surprise attack and jabs builds lol. Old argument that never made sense, specially now that DW&2h builds are widely used by many stamDKs

stamDK doesn't need any buffs, what they need is some QoL changes to some skills like depth breath that are clumsy or too unreliable to use. But i woudn't call that a buff, just fixing the stuff that is already there.

Asking for more buffs to wings is hilarous, isn't already the best skill in the entire class? I would love to trade shuffle for wings in all my stam classes lol

except deep breath is not even a stamDK skill. Sometimes I really wonder can the community even tell the difference between a stam and magDk... because it really doesn't feel like it.

And wings is nothing compared to shimmering or cloak, without the recent buffs it was not even an option for stamina. That is how bad wings were. Yeah, best skill in the entire class that nobody even bothered to use till they added snare immunity to it.

Millz

I dont run either

Ocelot9x

It’s like beating a dead horse at this time. Every patch we ask for more option, to not be pidgeonholed into a weapon class with leap but zos doesn’t give a damn so I guess I should play another 3 months as stam warden

hakan

IAVITNI wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Stam deep breath. Phys and poison. Instead of restoring stats based on people hit at end, it increases the damage of the direct attacks for 2s.

Wings: 4s immunity to snares. Also fall damage immunity. (Willing to sacrifice reflect into deflect for the criers) So DK has some worth while mobility for such an expensive ability and a unique movement pattern like shade/streak.

Nox breath: Minor defile. Works like 2h light/heavy attacks, tagged on one target, and then those around them too. (Does full damage though)

Claw: 8m range.

Volatile armour: Poison damage (makes sense, poison spines) on return and AoE. Works with combustion and WOR. Costs mag and scales of highest stat, needs to cost mag because it is a utility and MDKs use it too, but unlike FOO, it'll be stronger for stam.

All of the changes will keep stamDKs tanky brawler theme especially deep breath, which would function as a beserker rage giving a dynamic and not too strong buff to a leap combo.

Wings idea is cool. Maybe make Reflective Plate into Deflective Plate and keep Dragon Fire Scale. The reflect is a cool feature for DKs. But this way you can really go to town with Deflective.

Additionally I'd take your idea one step further and change Elder Dragon into a passive that deals AoE damage anytime you land based on time spent falling. This would be a buff to Leap and make dropping of towers into zergs a very unique experience for DKs. Obviously damage would have to be capped to prevent abuse but I think it would be really cool.

The other ideas are all QoL changes that would go a long way as well.

Although I don't think taking Deep Breath away is a good idea. That would probably cause a lot of backlash. Draw Essence is really nice in certain PvE situations.

Lol i like that elder dragon passive. Sounds cool.

ManDraKE

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

except deep breath is not even a stamDK skill. Sometimes I really wonder can the community even tell the difference between a stam and magDk... because it really doesn't feel like it.

my bad, i confused the names with noxius breath.

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

And wings is nothing compared to shimmering or cloak, without the recent buffs it was not even an option for stamina. That is how bad wings were. Yeah, best skill in the entire class that nobody even bothered to use till they added snare immunity to it

With the current version of wings in 4.1.2 in PTS, wings are amazing, It doesn't need more buffs. An even on live, most of the stamdk are using it for a reason, with the ammount of sorcs and snipers around wings are simply too good not to use, and next patch with snare inmunity, wings will be on the bars of every stam and magdk.

Sleep724

ManDraKE wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

except deep breath is not even a stamDK skill. Sometimes I really wonder can the community even tell the difference between a stam and magDk... because it really doesn't feel like it.

my bad, i confused the names with noxius breath.

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

And wings is nothing compared to shimmering or cloak, without the recent buffs it was not even an option for stamina. That is how bad wings were. Yeah, best skill in the entire class that nobody even bothered to use till they added snare immunity to it

With the current version of wings in 4.1.2 in PTS, wings are amazing, It doesn't need more buffs. An even on live, most of the stamdk are using it for a reason, with the ammount of sorcs and snipers around wings are simply too good not to use, and next patch with snare inmunity, wings will be on the bars of every stam and magdk.

Except Stam DKs can only cast it once or twice if they still wanna be able to use volatile and fragmented shield for the major mending. And 2s snare immunity. Wooo yea get snared every two seconds and in 4 seconds Stam DKs are out of mag. Then what? Block was already nerfed, no mobility, 990 Stam return for 4K mag but you’re already out of magicka right. Oh, how about battle roar?

Ok so use take flight to get that extra bit of resources and survive a few more seconds. Or use shield wall with the increased cost or let’s wait to use corrosive if we can survive that long to get that ultimate even though Dks have awful ulti gen and have to rely on armor sets to get it. Oh and a rng based passive to return Stam if you’re able to apply claw or noxious breath amongst that pressure. Yea they’re in a good spot alright.

KingLogix

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

KingLogix wrote: »

Can we get a stam dk buff? We currently are pigeon holed to run heroic and revered slash. Heroic slash recently had its snare reduced to 4 seconds, and reverb is about to get its defile reduced to 4 seconds.

Heoric slash, dizzyswing, crushing weapon, rendering slashes, steel tornado ...... so, the same that every other stambuild in the game, except for surprise attack and jabs builds lol. Old argument that never made sense, specially now that DW&2h builds are widely used by many stamDKs

stamDK doesn't need any buffs, what they need is some QoL changes to some skills like depth breath that are clumsy or too unreliable to use. But i woudn't call that a buff, just fixing the stuff that is already there.

Asking for more buffs to wings is hilarous, isn't already the best skill in the entire class? I would love to trade shuffle for wings in all my stam classes lol

except deep breath is not even a stamDK skill. Sometimes I really wonder can the community even tell the difference between a stam and magDk... because it really doesn't feel like it.

And wings is nothing compared to shimmering or cloak, without the recent buffs it was not even an option for stamina. That is how bad wings were. Yeah, best skill in the entire class that nobody even bothered to use till they added snare immunity to it.

LoL Thank you for replying XD I wanted to smack my face on the keyboard when I read that. He wasnt even worth the time for a reply..

BohnT

Don't hold your breath, maybe we can hope that we'll see some changes with Update 20, but week 1/3 are generally just bug fixes and 2/4 are used for combat changes and stamdk hasn't been one of the things that has been focused on in the class rep meeting when compared to things like:
Sloads, rune cage, incap, sets, WW etc.


Additionally it might be a pain point but from what i can tell they don't know how to touch the issue in an appropriate way so I'm rather sure they won't change anything meaningful in Update 19.

ManDraKE

Sleep724 wrote: »

Except Stam DKs can only cast it once or twice if they still wanna be able to use volatile and fragmented shield for the major mending.

And that's why stamblades for example invest in magika sustain, otherwise they won't be able to sustain cloak/fear/shadowimage. For example, with the return from constitution + resources from battle roar + shackebreaker and a couple of tri-start glyphs to increase your magika pool and get great magika sustain, you will be able to sustain wings really well.

Build better, so you can take advantage of your class toolkit. If you are still going for those "50k stamina 4kweapon damage, 0 sustain builds" from a couple patches ago, then you are doing it wrong.

Ragnarock41

ManDraKE wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

except deep breath is not even a stamDK skill. Sometimes I really wonder can the community even tell the difference between a stam and magDk... because it really doesn't feel like it.

my bad, i confused the names with noxius breath.

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

And wings is nothing compared to shimmering or cloak, without the recent buffs it was not even an option for stamina. That is how bad wings were. Yeah, best skill in the entire class that nobody even bothered to use till they added snare immunity to it

With the current version of wings in 4.1.2 in PTS, wings are amazing, It doesn't need more buffs. An even on live, most of the stamdk are using it for a reason, with the ammount of sorcs and snipers around wings are simply too good not to use, and next patch with snare inmunity, wings will be on the bars of every stam and magdk.

Yeah man, I agree wings is fine as it is with the 2 second immunity , it is actually viable option for stamDKs, because I can actually drop shuffle now(and get 2 things with one button which is saving time). Any more buffs to it and It would become something like shimmering shield, where you gain too much from using it.

But I gotta say, for once after 2 years I'm able to somewhat enjoy medium armor stamDk as a niche, anti-range dot build , I've tried medium many and many times before and finally with this build utilizing wings I can wear medium armor and not explode to death from a projectile coming from 40 meters away. It still requires timing and good predictions to use, similar to dodging stuff, you gotta time it right in open world to get the most out of it because it still costs too much even with high magicka regen, cause I have to afford fossilize,volatile and fragmented shields, all very expensive abilities , and despite wings, magsorcs can still zap me for a good chunk of my health, or just nuke me down with their burst, especially when there are two or more magsorcs and they want me dead, I'm probably dead because I can not survive such burst in medium. There is no way.

The only time where I feel like wings is too good is against the classic destro/resto magblade builds , but to be real even with wings those magblades can just simply cloak or shade away from a losing fight, or shield spam to infinity, so its not like they don't have any options either.

In the end stamDk is still at the bottom of the pvp tier list, though it just got a bit better.

Xvorg

ManDraKE wrote: »

Sleep724 wrote: »

Except Stam DKs can only cast it once or twice if they still wanna be able to use volatile and fragmented shield for the major mending.

And that's why stamblades for example invest in magika sustain, otherwise they won't be able to sustain cloak/fear/shadowimage. For example, with the return from constitution + resources from battle roar + shackebreaker and a couple of tri-start glyphs to increase your magika pool and get great magika sustain, you will be able to sustain wings really well.

Build better, so you can take advantage of your class toolkit. If you are still going for those "50k stamina 4kweapon damage, 0 sustain builds" from a couple patches ago, then you are doing it wrong.

So it is Ok to pigeonhole an entire spec just to be able to run one skill?

If Stamblades are able to build magicka and magicka regen is due to some passives that allow them to do it easily, just to name 3: executioner, refreshing shadows and Magicka flood... which are way more reliable than combustion and battleroar, which as a corner stone for sustain is just bad... nobody goes spamming ultis just to recover magicka without dynamic ult generation...

Please, avoid extrapolations, if something works on one clase it doesn't mean it will work on the other... what if I tell you that what you said it is as silly as saying than any stamblade can build permablock just using CP points, some sets and sloting defensive posture, permablocking as good as any DK?

ManDraKE

Xvorg wrote: »

So it is Ok to pigeonhole an entire spec just to be able to run one skill?

Invest a little bit in magika susain is pigeonhole a class? lol. Talk about overeacting.....Also this is a rule for all stam classes, maybe except stamden because of shimerring shield being op, but stamblades and stamsorcs always had to invest in magika sustain, all their class tools are expensive magika-bases skills.

Xvorg wrote: »

If Stamblades are able to build magicka and magicka regen is due to some passives that allow them to do it easily, just to name 3: executioner, refreshing shadows and Magicka flood... which are way more reliable than combustion and battleroar, which as a corner stone for sustain is just bad... nobody goes spamming ultis just to recover magicka without dynamic ult generation...

Yeah 15% mag recovery on a baseline 500 recovery (in CP campains) is great sustain /sarcasm. Executioner only restores of your highest pool, so it would return stam not magika, and magika flood is virtualy useless on a stamblade, it only increase the max magika of a single bar because the only 2 skills that a stamblade could slot from that tree are siphoning and MAYBE soul theater (and if you happend to use both skills, is almost sure that you have to arrange them in the same bar)
Magika sustain on a stamdk is WAY better than on a stamblade. The diferennce is that stamblades (and stamsorcs) learned to invest in magika sustain years ago, and many DKs ar still building based off the meta of 3 major patches ago, the era of full damage build with 40-50k mag stam and redguard pasive to sustain is long pass, deal with it.

Xvorg wrote: »

Please, avoid extrapolations, if something works on one clase it doesn't mean it will work on the other... what if I tell you that what you said it is as silly as saying than any stamblade can build permablock just using CP points, some sets and sloting defensive posture, permablocking as good as any DK?

Is not extrapolation, is correlation, and is on point. Wings is going to be an amazing tool for stamdks next patch, if you don't sustain magika to take advantage of it, you are building it wrong.

KingLogix

ManDraKE wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

So it is Ok to pigeonhole an entire spec just to be able to run one skill?

Invest a little bit in magika susain is pigeonhole a class? lol. Talk about overeacting.....Also this is a rule for all stam classes, maybe except stamden because of shimerring shield being op, but stamblades and stamsorcs always had to invest in magika sustain, all their class tools are expensive magika-bases skills.

Xvorg wrote: »

If Stamblades are able to build magicka and magicka regen is due to some passives that allow them to do it easily, just to name 3: executioner, refreshing shadows and Magicka flood... which are way more reliable than combustion and battleroar, which as a corner stone for sustain is just bad... nobody goes spamming ultis just to recover magicka without dynamic ult generation...

Yeah 15% mag recovery on a baseline 500 recovery (in CP campains) is great sustain /sarcasm. Executioner only restores of your highest pool, so it would return stam not magika, and magika flood is virtualy useless on a stamblade, it only increase the max magika of a single bar because the only 2 skills that a stamblade could slot from that tree are siphoning and MAYBE soul theater (and if you happend to use both skills, is almost sure that you have to arrange them in the same bar)
Magika sustain on a stamdk is WAY better than on a stamblade. The diferennce is that stamblades (and stamsorcs) learned to invest in magika sustain years ago, and many DKs ar still building based off the meta of 3 major patches ago, the era of full damage build with 40-50k mag stam and redguard pasive to sustain is long pass, deal with it.

Xvorg wrote: »

Please, avoid extrapolations, if something works on one clase it doesn't mean it will work on the other... what if I tell you that what you said it is as silly as saying than any stamblade can build permablock just using CP points, some sets and sloting defensive posture, permablocking as good as any DK?

Is not extrapolation, is correlation, and is on point. Wings is going to be an amazing tool for stamdks next patch, if you don't sustain magika to take advantage of it, you are building it wrong.

it creates a vicious cycle. the nightblade naturally hits harder then the stam dk(Suprise attack, bow proc, incap), and that is just the nature of it.

It would be less punishable for a nb to sacrifice for mag sustain then for a stam dk to. The stam dk cant afford to lose more damage then it has already. Our spammables *cough* DOTS *cough* would hit like spaghetti noodles if we decided to build for mag sustain as well. If you are not understanding this, then you really don't have a position to argue against this..

Skoomah

frostz417 wrote: »

Reverb was 10 seconds of major defile. 6 seconds for cc cool down. So hitting reverb every 6 seconds is essentially constant cc with 100% uptime on major defile. Heroic is a 4 second snare with minor maim. Honestly stamDK’s are just fine how they are... especially with the fact that they can apply so many debuff’s and be extremely tanky. A good stamDK can perma defile,snare, and maim their opponent while keeping up pressure.

When was the last time you got killed by heroic strike?

ManDraKE

KingLogix wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

So it is Ok to pigeonhole an entire spec just to be able to run one skill?

Invest a little bit in magika susain is pigeonhole a class? lol. Talk about overeacting.....Also this is a rule for all stam classes, maybe except stamden because of shimerring shield being op, but stamblades and stamsorcs always had to invest in magika sustain, all their class tools are expensive magika-bases skills.

Xvorg wrote: »

If Stamblades are able to build magicka and magicka regen is due to some passives that allow them to do it easily, just to name 3: executioner, refreshing shadows and Magicka flood... which are way more reliable than combustion and battleroar, which as a corner stone for sustain is just bad... nobody goes spamming ultis just to recover magicka without dynamic ult generation...

Yeah 15% mag recovery on a baseline 500 recovery (in CP campains) is great sustain /sarcasm. Executioner only restores of your highest pool, so it would return stam not magika, and magika flood is virtualy useless on a stamblade, it only increase the max magika of a single bar because the only 2 skills that a stamblade could slot from that tree are siphoning and MAYBE soul theater (and if you happend to use both skills, is almost sure that you have to arrange them in the same bar)
Magika sustain on a stamdk is WAY better than on a stamblade. The diferennce is that stamblades (and stamsorcs) learned to invest in magika sustain years ago, and many DKs ar still building based off the meta of 3 major patches ago, the era of full damage build with 40-50k mag stam and redguard pasive to sustain is long pass, deal with it.

Xvorg wrote: »

Please, avoid extrapolations, if something works on one clase it doesn't mean it will work on the other... what if I tell you that what you said it is as silly as saying than any stamblade can build permablock just using CP points, some sets and sloting defensive posture, permablocking as good as any DK?

Is not extrapolation, is correlation, and is on point. Wings is going to be an amazing tool for stamdks next patch, if you don't sustain magika to take advantage of it, you are building it wrong.

it creates a vicious cycle. the nightblade naturally hits harder then the stam dk(Suprise attack, bow proc, incap), and that is just the nature of it.

It would be less punishable for a nb to sacrifice for mag sustain then for a stam dk to. The stam dk cant afford to lose more damage then it has already. Our spammables *cough* DOTS *cough* would hit like spaghetti noodles if we decided to build for mag sustain as well. If you are not understanding this, then you really don't have a position to argue against this..

its true that stamblades hits harder, but investing in magika sustain is not exactly free for a stamblade, neither for stamsorcs. Utility skills are always magika based, with a few exceptions like vigor and shuffle, and that's why all stam classes had to invest on magika sustain (Again, with the exception of stamdem because shimmering shield because is OP).
StamDKs didn't had to investing much in magika sustain before for 2 reasons: 1) they already get some sustain from their passives (even more if they use heavy armor) and that was enought for volatile armor + igneuos 2) wings were useless so there was no reason to use them and modify the build for sustaining them. Now that wings are going to be great, its time to invest A LITTLE in magika sustain, is not like you need a lot, a 11k mag pool 600 regen and constituion (just to give one example of the plethora of builds that you can do, tip: atronach mundus works really well on stambuilds) is enought. Is a positive thing, i really don't understand how people can complain about it, wings is going to make the class way more effective

I stand by my original opinion, stamdk doesn't need buffs, they just need some QoL changes on some skills like noxious breath or claws. Can't say much about magDK because it not really my thing, but i imagine that they don't need much more, they are performing really well and wings with snare removal+inmunity is a huge buff for they lack of mobility.

Jjitsuboy98

I would like to see a couple more Stam morphs on some of the skills.

ak_pvp

ManDraKE wrote: »

KingLogix wrote: »

Can we get a stam dk buff? We currently are pigeon holed to run heroic and revered slash. Heroic slash recently had its snare reduced to 4 seconds, and reverb is about to get its defile reduced to 4 seconds.

Heoric slash, dizzyswing, crushing weapon, rendering slashes, steel tornado ...... so, the same that every other stambuild in the game, except for surprise attack and jabs builds lol. Old argument that never made sense, specially now that DW&2h builds are widely used by many stamDKs

stamDK doesn't need any buffs, what they need is some QoL changes to some skills like depth breath noxious breath that are clumsy or too unreliable to use. But i woudn't call that a buff, just fixing the stuff that is already there.

Asking for more buffs to wings is hilarous, isn't already the best skill in the entire class? I would love to trade shuffle for wings in all my stam classes lol

Nah, wings is probably one of the worst. Its worse than shimmering, harness, cloak, and mayybe equal to purge (but purge is good vs sload/bleed meta) Wings is 4 LA.

Also, deal. I'd trade for shuffle right now. I'd love the ability to dodge any direct attack passively instead of 4 "projectiles" and 0.5s extra immunity, whilst being able to unchain it so its cheap.

Xvorg

ManDraKE wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

So it is Ok to pigeonhole an entire spec just to be able to run one skill?

Invest a little bit in magika susain is pigeonhole a class? lol. Talk about overeacting.....Also this is a rule for all stam classes, maybe except stamden because of shimerring shield being op, but stamblades and stamsorcs always had to invest in magika sustain, all their class tools are expensive magika-bases skills.

Xvorg wrote: »

If Stamblades are able to build magicka and magicka regen is due to some passives that allow them to do it easily, just to name 3: executioner, refreshing shadows and Magicka flood... which are way more reliable than combustion and battleroar, which as a corner stone for sustain is just bad... nobody goes spamming ultis just to recover magicka without dynamic ult generation...

Yeah 15% mag recovery on a baseline 500 recovery (in CP campains) is great sustain /sarcasm. Executioner only restores of your highest pool, so it would return stam not magika, and magika flood is virtualy useless on a stamblade, it only increase the max magika of a single bar because the only 2 skills that a stamblade could slot from that tree are siphoning and MAYBE soul theater (and if you happend to use both skills, is almost sure that you have to arrange them in the same bar)
Magika sustain on a stamdk is WAY better than on a stamblade. The diferennce is that stamblades (and stamsorcs) learned to invest in magika sustain years ago, and many DKs ar still building based off the meta of 3 major patches ago, the era of full damage build with 40-50k mag stam and redguard pasive to sustain is long pass, deal with it.

Xvorg wrote: »

Please, avoid extrapolations, if something works on one clase it doesn't mean it will work on the other... what if I tell you that what you said it is as silly as saying than any stamblade can build permablock just using CP points, some sets and sloting defensive posture, permablocking as good as any DK?

Is not extrapolation, is correlation, and is on point. Wings is going to be an amazing tool for stamdks next patch, if you don't sustain magika to take advantage of it, you are building it wrong.

So you are saying that DK should be build just like a stamblade? I don't think so. SDK has a bad resource management, has no passive that increases its magicka or stamina pool. It has little to no mobility outside sets and vamp and, the worst part is that the class was designed under the idea that it must keep on fighting to recover resources. It is not like you disengage from a fight, recover resources and heal, and then jump again, no. You must keep on putting pressure and, if for some reason you disengage, you become an easy target. In the same way, if you lose or your resources due to a poison and have little to no Ulti to proc battle roar, you're dead.

With that in mind you cannot build towards amberplasm, no matter how good the set is for recovery. You still need a more than decent stam pool that allows you to block and put some dmg. That's why sets like BPT or Draugr Hulk are a must (which increases your stam pool) or sets like ravager or warrios fury (increasing wpn dmg), and they must be combined with a set that increases your stam recovery or your defense. Losing 2 or 3 set bonus for using amberplasm is not gonna help you.

Just think about this, the best set you can pair with Battle Roar is Witchman, hence no serious stamDK has ever used it because, despite the good bonus that set gives, overall the resources returned are not enough. If a set that cries stamDK all over it is a bad choice for that spec, what do you think stamDK believe about a set like amberplasm?

edit:I forgot to mention that stamDK utilities are magicka based, so using wings + your CC + igneous shield + molten weapons will mean you run oom faster than now.

As @ak_pvp said, you could do it way better with shuffle than wings.

ManDraKE

Xvorg wrote: »

So you are saying that DK should be build just like a stamblade? I don't think so.

If at this point of the conversation you are asking that, i give up, i explained 3 times why all stam classes have to include some magika sustain on their builds.

Xvorg wrote: »

SDK has a bad resource management

Uh? go play a stamplar and then tell me about bad resource managment lol. A well build DK can sustain stamina with zero investment on stam regen. I play low-sustain builds in all stam classes, and stamdk and stamwarden are by far the two easiest class to play with low regen, at least for me.

Xvorg wrote: »

Just think about this, the best set you can pair with Battle Roar is Witchman, hence no serious stamDK has ever used it

No, but werewolf hide, bloodspawn and any source of minor heroism are common ocurrences stamdk's builds. Plenty of sets and skills to improve sustain with ultimate generation.

Sorry but i don't agree with anything you are saying, seems like we are talking about 2 different classes.

IAVITNI

ManDraKE wrote: »

KingLogix wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

So it is Ok to pigeonhole an entire spec just to be able to run one skill?

Invest a little bit in magika susain is pigeonhole a class? lol. Talk about overeacting.....Also this is a rule for all stam classes, maybe except stamden because of shimerring shield being op, but stamblades and stamsorcs always had to invest in magika sustain, all their class tools are expensive magika-bases skills.

Xvorg wrote: »

If Stamblades are able to build magicka and magicka regen is due to some passives that allow them to do it easily, just to name 3: executioner, refreshing shadows and Magicka flood... which are way more reliable than combustion and battleroar, which as a corner stone for sustain is just bad... nobody goes spamming ultis just to recover magicka without dynamic ult generation...

Yeah 15% mag recovery on a baseline 500 recovery (in CP campains) is great sustain /sarcasm. Executioner only restores of your highest pool, so it would return stam not magika, and magika flood is virtualy useless on a stamblade, it only increase the max magika of a single bar because the only 2 skills that a stamblade could slot from that tree are siphoning and MAYBE soul theater (and if you happend to use both skills, is almost sure that you have to arrange them in the same bar)
Magika sustain on a stamdk is WAY better than on a stamblade. The diferennce is that stamblades (and stamsorcs) learned to invest in magika sustain years ago, and many DKs ar still building based off the meta of 3 major patches ago, the era of full damage build with 40-50k mag stam and redguard pasive to sustain is long pass, deal with it.

Xvorg wrote: »

Please, avoid extrapolations, if something works on one clase it doesn't mean it will work on the other... what if I tell you that what you said it is as silly as saying than any stamblade can build permablock just using CP points, some sets and sloting defensive posture, permablocking as good as any DK?

Is not extrapolation, is correlation, and is on point. Wings is going to be an amazing tool for stamdks next patch, if you don't sustain magika to take advantage of it, you are building it wrong.

it creates a vicious cycle. the nightblade naturally hits harder then the stam dk(Suprise attack, bow proc, incap), and that is just the nature of it.

It would be less punishable for a nb to sacrifice for mag sustain then for a stam dk to. The stam dk cant afford to lose more damage then it has already. Our spammables *cough* DOTS *cough* would hit like spaghetti noodles if we decided to build for mag sustain as well. If you are not understanding this, then you really don't have a position to argue against this..

its true that stamblades hits harder, but investing in magika sustain is not exactly free for a stamblade, neither for stamsorcs. Utility skills are always magika based, with a few exceptions like vigor and shuffle, and that's why all stam classes had to invest on magika sustain (Again, with the exception of stamdem because shimmering shield because is OP).
StamDKs didn't had to investing much in magika sustain before for 2 reasons: 1) they already get some sustain from their passives (even more if they use heavy armor) and that was enought for volatile armor + igneuos 2) wings were useless so there was no reason to use them and modify the build for sustaining them. Now that wings are going to be great, its time to invest A LITTLE in magika sustain, is not like you need a lot, a 11k mag pool 600 regen and constituion (just to give one example of the plethora of builds that you can do, tip: atronach mundus works really well on stambuilds) is enought. Is a positive thing, i really don't understand how people can complain about it, wings is going to make the class way more effective

I stand by my original opinion, stamdk doesn't need buffs, they just need some QoL changes on some skills like noxious breath or claws. Can't say much about magDK because it not really my thing, but i imagine that they don't need much more, they are performing really well and wings with snare removal+inmunity is a huge buff for they lack of mobility.

I think a "class update" is the more accurate term. A lot of synergies were nerfed but never compensated for in the class. Battle Roar needs to be updated for instance--it should return resources based current ultimate. So in that sense, yes it's more a QoL change. But Stone Fist, Elder Dragon, Green Dragon's Blood also need to be updated because they simply don't provide enough. GDB is very niche, and while it may be a tank skill, DK is the tank class. So while it should be most effective on a DK tank, it should still provide a noticeable benefit to any sDK, Major Fortitude is simply not worth a slot. So its buffs here and QoL there, but more as a result of changes/nerfs that were done within the context of a meta that no longer exists.

ak_pvp wrote: »

Nah, wings is probably one of the worst. Its worse than shimmering, harness, cloak, and mayybe equal to purge (but purge is good vs sload/bleed meta) Wings is 4 LA.

Also, deal. I'd trade for shuffle right now. I'd love the ability to dodge any direct attack passively instead of 4 "projectiles" and 0.5s extra immunity, whilst being able to unchain it so its cheap.

I personally don't feel wings is that bad. It's a very strong utility skill that absolutely shuts down sorc burst and makes mnb completely useless. It could use some improvement in sustain since it is very costly, but the problem with buffing it for sDK is that it becomes too strong (not op but close) on mDK vs ranged magicka builds.

A potential change could be to reduce the base cost, change projectile limit to 5 but have the amount of projectiles reflected reduced by 1 if it is recasted within 10 seconds. Dragon Fire Scale would reduce that timer to 8 seconds in addition to its current bonus. This would make it much more accessible to sDK and prevent abusing it on mDK--since they would be able to cast it more as well--so either they leave themselves open to attack to have a longer offensive window or they keep it up to avoid damage.

In response to the Deep Breath/Draw Essence. I run Deep Breath on my PvP magDK. It's great for 1vx, zerging and still useful in a 1v1, especially if they run Engine Guardian. A lot of mag sorcs still run crushing shock over pulse solely for the interrupt despite it having a cooldown. sDK doesn't really need the delayed burst, Venomous Claw already serves a similar purpose. They do need something to do in-between applying DoTs (assuming targeting issues are addressed). As to what, not sure. Maybe a class spammable but personally I think turning a Stone Fist morph into a PBAoE damage+utility skill would be the best option since it wouldn't homogenize classes as much.

hakan

How is fiery grip? A class gap closer. i see it on pvp but no one talks about it. im thinking of using it.