A bit confused about builds

vometia

I was wondering if anybody might be able to enlighten me a bit about the nature of builds, as I'm utterly perplexed. I have two characters, my original, a breton dragon-knight, now level 50, CP 165-ish, heavy-armour, sword-and-board type and mixed magicka/stamina dealer. I know it's not an ideal build but I took the "play as you like!" thing literally and this is the sort of character I usually play. I've noticed she's woefully ineffective at pretty much everything, particularly damage-dealing and staying alive. Her main stats for magicka/health/stamina are according to the ESO database 18k/18k/16k. Attribute points are 2/40/22, which seems less than ideal but when I distributed them more "ideally" it was awful so I changed them back at some expense. Dunno whether or not that's with or without armour, but she has two good sets (Mork and Magnus... wasn't that an old science fiction programme?) and is still struggling. Which is a shame as I'd rather play as her.

And then there's my recent addition, a bosmer sorcerer: yeah, I know I got the professions the wrong way round according to their racial skills, but if a mistake is worth making, it's worth making repeatedly. Anyway, usual kind of stuff for a sorcerer, someone who's primarily a zapper, and for physical weapons she's also sword-and-board as it's what I know. She prefers light armour, decent sets (Magnus and Seducer: not quite as good as the Breton) and has a clannfear in tow when I remember to summon it. And she is very much easier to play: in spite of being level 15 compared to the DK's level 50 she has way better survivability and deals very much more damage. Her M/H/S stats are way more impressive at 29k/16k/30k, attributes being (approx) 12/0/7 I think.

Both characters have equipment that's all infused and roughly equally treated to magicka and stamina boosts, four of each I think: armour and enchantments are purple for the breton and green for the bosmer.

And I'm utterly confused. Not least as UESP's build calculator says my bosmer should have about a third of the health she actually possesses, though I dare say that might be a red herring. Can anybody cast any light on what's going on?

I've probably neglected to include some other bits that I should've done but I'm rather at a loss as to how anything could give the bosmer such an advantage over the breton, especially as I haven't even spent all her blue CP points as I'm undecided about where they should go.

Edit: actually I'd forgotten about the matter of food, both tending to prefer the magicka/stamina boost stuff and the breton may be hungry, but even if that's the case, it still only explains half the difference.

jypcy

Battle-scaling (or whatever it’s called nowadays). Basically, all overland content is the same “difficulty” whether you’re lvl 3 or cp750 because lower level characters get inherit stat bonuses to make up for what higher level characters have earned. But, as you level up, those stat bonuses become ones you must apply instead. This isn’t the exact science behind it, but it might help to think of it this way:

A max level character has 64 attribute points to spend.
A min level character has like, 2 attribute points to spend.
Battle-scaling gives that min level character 62 attribute points-worth of stats to make up for the difference. As you level up and earn more attribute points to spend yourself, the battle-scaling diminishes (at lvl 15 your bosmer is still battle-scaled, but less so than when she was lvl 3).

CP also factors into this. The cp you earn increases your base stats by a percentage, up until 300cp. I forget the exact system, but iirc a sub-50 character is additionally battle-scaled to compensate for these stats, even if you’ve applied cp to her. However, once you reach lvl 50, the cp battle-scaling is removed entirely, instead of gradually like it is for the lvl battle-scaling. Thus, your bosmer would have a degree of lvl battle-scaling plus the full cp battle-scaling. Your breton has no battle-scaling. (I also could be wrong on this, as it might be the case that cp battle-scaling is determined by account cp, not character level.)

As said, the above isn’t the exact math behind it all, but hopefully gives you insight into what’s happening. Anyone should feel free to correct any glaring errors or omissions I made.

As for the build editor, I think there are settings where you can adjust how much cp it should consider your account to have earned. By default, I believe it treats your builds as having the full 750cp and so does not use cp battle-scaling, which would be one factor for why you’re seeing less health. Also make sure you have all of the passives your in game character has. For example, heavy armor increases health for each piece worn.

NBrookus

I have an orc DK that has been both hybrid, stam and magicka at various times. All are perfectly playable for overland content; less so for dungeons.

Your damage and healing are poor because both scale off stats and damage, and all of them are low. Hybrid is going to be harder to complete content on, but if you want to play a hybrid, there are sets that can help. Pelinals combined with a damage set (pick stam or mag), or sets which boost all your stats like Twice Born Star or Shacklebreaker.

Regarding your sorc, there are a few things going on. One is you are battle levelled up, so you are getting stat boosts while you are low level. If you are using pets you get a health boost. Sorcs have cost reduction and regen passives that DKs don't. If your sorc is in 5 light pieces and you have the passive unlocked, you are getting damage (via penetration and crit), regen and cost reduction. Heavy only gets health, healing and resistance.

Also... sorcs just do more damage than DKs, and they can start their primary damage at range. I had the same feeling when I levelled my first sorc and it felt like easy mode.

Still like my DKs better.

vometia

Thanks for the explanation! The way it works seems to be slightly counter-intuitive but that does explain a few things.

I suspect I may have also been mistakenly conflating two unrelated matters and consequently drawing the wrong conclusions, which is that based on what I've read, a sorcerer is probably a more effective build than a DK, even when done badly (and both of mine are likely done pretty badly). I think Oblivion left me with this persistent feeling that sorcerers are ineffective squishies in spite of having seen that's really not the case in various games since then.

jypcy

Yeah, I guess another thing to point out is that the “play how you want” isn’t necessarily meant to imply that you can put all of your points into magicka, run around naked with a battle axe, and heavy attack everything to death (in overland you probably could, but definitely not effective). Instead, it’s more to suggest that each class isn’t restricted to a specific play style. That sorcerer doesn’t have to be a magicka user who only uses staves and spells. You can also turn her into a melee warrior or a bow user or a tank. Just as the dragon knight doesn’t need to be a tank, but could also be a pyromancer or a werewolf or a healer. The class you play doesn’t restrict which role you can perform.

Certain classes are better suited to specific roles, but you can still complete content with a warden as a damage dealer or a sorcerer as a tank.

Nestor

You can play as you want, but you are also given the freedom to make a bad build. While Race does have an impact on your performance, your Rotation is far more important. Gear is important to the extent that it suits your build, either Stamina or Magic.

Yes, you have to go all in on either Magic or Stamina, use the gear for that choice and pick the Morphs that Scale from that choice. However, this still gives you a ton of freedom.

I will go ahead and say it, right now, DKs are better suited to being a tank. Good news is, you will get into Random Dungeons quicker. However, a properly geared Tank with a good tank rotation is a hoot to play. If decide to go this route, google Woeler and tank and study his website. For the record, early on DKs were wrecking machines, but the balance hammer has swung away from them. It will be back. In the meantime, decide if you want a melee or magic sorcerer and make your Bosmer do that.

vometia

Thanks for all the responses, you've been most helpful.

I forgot to mention, my interest is solo PvE, so my build is really just about keeping myself happy, which means managing to stay alive for the most part! I also wondered about damage factoring into it and it seems my sorcerer's damage output is significantly more. As I am not one for finesse, both my characters use basically the same technique for combat, which is to alternate between a magic and physical weapon (so flame lash or zap with light slashes with a one-handed sword in both cases, with other abilities such as stabs or whatever thrown in for good measure; about the only difference is that my DK uses shield-charges a lot in order to knock down her target first, though far from giving an advantage that just closes the gap between her and the sorc a little) but the sorc definitely has an easier time of it. I'm pretty sure that also applies to my breton being at the same level, and though it's possible my playing style has improved in that time, I suspect that perhaps the DK is not the most effective solo choice... though I certainly wouldn't rule out my ability to sufficiently mess up my build!

I'd love to re-spec my original character to give her access to sorc abilities but from what I understand that probably isn't possible. So flame lash it is: does anybody know if this can be made a little more effective?

I also need to find out what rotations are: it's something I've read a lot about without ever actually figuring out what it is!

mague

It is the One Tamriel buff.

I started an imperial DK and he is at level 10 disproportionately strong. Obsidian Shard heals for over 5000 for example. And that with a few empty armor slots and no champion points set.

I play Warden and Templer solo PvE sind 2015.

You dont really need "rotations" as solo PvE. Survivability is priority 1. Dying is running out of heals. Usually because you are out of Magicka or Stamina. Maybe drinks with regen help. Just as a bit more regen from champion points or a different mundus. You can also try to use mag and stam for defense. Undaunted's Bone Shield uses stam and most heals use mag. The Bone Shiled is 6 seconds which equals to 3 regenerating ticks where you gain magicka back.

There are armor sets with heals or damage procs. Those are very helpful, because they dont use resources.

It is all about managing your resources when playing solo PvE.

Masel

If you want to learn a bit more about the core functionality of combat in eso, this one might be helpful to you:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/422268/a-comprehensive-guide-on-damage-dealing-in-elder-scrolls-online#latest

It is long, but worth a read

You should be able to determine why your damage output on the dk is lower when you read it l.

yiasemi

This one, (I have a Khajiit Stamblade on the US server) is happy to run around waving pointy sticks at dreadful unsociable mer, men and monsters (ie anything else) with the very dashing half-elf. I've never played Dragonknight so far from this one to tell our Breton friend how to play. This one has never got cross when dying ignominiously (this one should never have started on Summerset) because top cat is the leader of the gang (close friends get to call me TC) with many pretty soul gems but is happy to give pointers this one is in no position to give.
tl/dnr Levelling up, I'll let you know when I hit CP. Basically I need back up for the world bosses. If we die we die, I know I will die laughing anyway.

jypcy

OP, re: damage, I recommend taking a dive into Masel’s guide, but to give you a quick answer, there are more or less two classes of damage: spell and weapon.

Spell is the flashy stuff— flame, shock, ice, and magic— and comes from staves and most magicka-cost abilities. The higher your Max Magicka and spell damage stats are, the more powerful your spell attacks are.

Weapon is the physical stuff— disease, poison, and physical— and comes from bows, swords, shields, etc., along with most stamina-cost abilities. The higher your max stamina and weapon damage stats are, the more powerful your weapon attacks are.

Because of the above reasons, the more you invest in either spell or weapon (but not both), the stronger your attacks will be. It sounds like both of your characters invest in both attack types to some degree, but your dk is more invested in both than your sorc is. Thus, your dk’s attack power is more thinly stretched, meaning either of her attack types are weaker than your sorc’s spell attacks are if hers are more invested there. Also, the sorc class offers more passives to increase your damaging base stats than the dk class does (dk passives are more oriented around defense). You could refocus your dk to be more invested in a single attack type instead of both of them and she should seem more effective than she was before, potentially even up to being on par with your sorc.

Edit: to perhaps better illustrate that point of how investing more into one attack type is better, imagine you have 10 resources to split between spell and weapon attacks and use your skill slots and attack frequency over 10 attacks according to how much you invested in them. If your dk is invested in both evenly:
Wpn: 5 resources x 5 attacks = 25 damage
Spl: 5 resources x 5 attacks = 25 damage
Total output: 50 damage

If your sorc is more heavily invested in spell attacks:
Wpn: 2 resources x 2 attacks = 4 damage
Spl: 8 resources x 8 attacks = 64 damage
Total output: 68 damage

vometia

Thanks again for the helpful responses, and a couple of very in-depth guides for me to read: started on them both but have barely scratched the surface! This is quite the learning curve and I think in some ways perhaps as I'm having to completely redefine what I previously knew (and which itself took long enough to learn!) The scaling of players to the world explains an awful lot, though a lot more continues to remain a mystery.

Re jypcy, curiously my DK is probably more specialised than my sorcerer, though the difference is that she has the bulk of her attributes invested in health. The sorcerer has none in health and the remainder distributed approximately 2:1 in magicka and stamina. She mostly has an easier time of it, provided I remember to summon her friendy clannfear, though when things have got really ugly that's when the DK and her heavy armour actually show their advantage: whilst no sort of tank, I think I now appreciate that she isn't totally at a disadvantage. In fact I'm now seeing the same balance I do with enemies, the sword-wielders are the most immediate headache and can be the toughest to deal with; whereas the sorcerers are absolutely the most dangerous and require the most awareness, but are quite squishy. Which actually seems to sum up my two characters.

Also thanks to Yias for being Yias. I may need to borrow you and your pointy stick while I hide safely in the background!

jypcy

Ah yes if the dk is invested in health by any significant amount, that undercuts the ability to invest seriously in either of the attack types. To fix the calculations accordingly, it’d be like leaving yourself with, for example, just 6 resources to use between wpn and spl, meaning your build might look something more like:
Health: 4 resources x 0 attacks = 0 damage
Wpn: 4 resources x 6 attacks = 24 damage
Spl: 2 resources x 4 attacks = 8 damage
Total output: 32 damage

Of course I’m just using made up numbers and they only refer to potential damage output. As you note, your healthy dk has a better time surviving which is valuable in its own right for solo play. But, if you want to beef up her attacks, you’ll need to focus even more heavily into one type or the other and/or take some out of health.