Templar Javelin idea

Narvuntien

So a lot of melee templars are frustrated that the knockback on this skill knocks the target out of their threat range.

Now I guess the idea behind the change from 6-8 was to try to push people into traps in battlegrounds but that's just not how it is playing out.
For starters getting your damage off does a lot more damage than a little lava....

Now that both Dks and Sorcs have unblockable undodgable CC that Templars simply don't have anything to compete with that kind of power despite also wanting to stay close like a DK.

So there are some ideas
The obvious one is to just go back to a 6 metre knockback
Next making it unblockable and undodgable considering its resource cost this isn't even unbalanced when you compared it to rune cage.

Okay so my other idea is definitely weaker than those two changes but i also think it is a lot more fun for both sides.
If the target is blocking... it is just a straight stun with no knockback dropping the targets block.
Templars already bleed damage through block with their piecing spear passive (I would look to increase that) and give templars a niche against blocking targets.
If the target is not blocking 8 metre knockback.
This would include if they were roll dodging (as this skill would be undodgeable). So you could roll dodge and the skill would hit and push you further away form the templar give the skill some kind of counterplay. So this would incentify a melee templar to use the spear to break blocks rather than generic CC but a ranged templar would look to use it defensively on targets attacking them.

Gnozo

Did you saw all the complains about rune cage being undodable and unblockable in addition to the huge range?
So you want literally the same for templar.

Not going to work tbh but templar really need a CC.

#giveshardsccback

BohnT

Nope don't turn it into an unblockable and undodgeable CC, either you have skills that go through block or dodge
(Jabs, solar barrage, beam, PotL) or the class should have access to an undodgeable, unblockable CC (like NB or DK) not both (like sorc has atm curse+rune cage)

Just make javalin into an blockable, dodgeable meele "low slash" with your spear that knocks people off their feet.
(Similar performance as reverb)

Such a CC is fine, add a decent secondary effect and Templars have a CC again.
Is it the best one in the game? Nope but it's much better than the buggy, templar toolkit unfriendly javalin.

UppGRAYxDD

Just make it undodgeable/unblockable like other classes...or remove all undodgeable unblockable abilities....

Gnozo

I would personally see that giving shards their CC back would be the best choice.

No magplar who is build for damage would use shards cause the damage is low and its just not usefull. Only Healbots, who are build for Support, use shards in pvp.

Giving shards their CC back would bring it back to the magplar dd toolkit as a stun for their own rotation while they can support the group with sustain. Would be a win-win Situation for magplar and group.

Solariken

I don't think an unblockable CC is needed. I would however support boosting the damage against blocking targets via Piercing Spear.

TheDarkShadow

I want a range interrupt for stam morph of javellin instead of knocking back. Some mechanics require a range interrupt like the senche and the last boss in Fang Lair and currently only mag build have access to a range interrupt that doesn't cripple their dps (they have other spam skills like Elemental weapon or funnel so they can morph Force Pulse to Crushing Shock). Stam, specially class that don't have an execution need poison injection for the executed phase. We cannot drop it for the interrupt morph.

Drdeath20

Add a Dot and remove knockback or make it pull enemies into you.

Valkysas154

Use Javelin then charge to get back into range is my best advice, tho i am not sure if they every fixed charge it was acting strange a few weeks ago

casparian

Valkysas154 wrote: »

Use Javelin then charge to get back into range is my best advice, tho i am not sure if they every fixed charge it was acting strange a few weeks ago

No other class has to give up two bar slots in order to have a decent CC.

DocFrost72

BohnT wrote: »

Nope don't turn it into an unblockable and undodgeable CC, either you have skills that go through block or dodge
(Jabs, solar barrage, beam, PotL) or the class should have access to an undodgeable, unblockable CC (like NB or DK) not both (like sorc has atm curse+rune cage)

Just make javalin into an blockable, dodgeable meele "low slash" with your spear that knocks people off their feet.
(Similar performance as reverb)

Such a CC is fine, add a decent secondary effect and Templars have a CC again.
Is it the best one in the game? Nope but it's much better than the buggy, templar toolkit unfriendly javalin.

How would you respond to the argument that every class and weapon line in the game has a skill that goes through block, and a skill that ignores dodging?

danno8

IMO, Luminous Shards was the perfectly balanced version of an unblockable/undodgeable CC. You had to aim it on the ground, it had a small delay and a small tell as well, as you could see a spear indicator on the ground at cast time. It also didn't do large damage, it was instead a setup to do large damage.

All they had to do was make it so Burning Light didn't immediately break the disorient with either a damage limit, or a 1 second hard stun in conjunction with the disorient.

Of course what happens? They take away the most balanced CC in the game and instead give ridiculously strong unblockable/undodgeable and basically unavoidable CC with big damage as well to other classes.

That's the problem with playing Magplar, sometimes I feel like they are the only class in the game that actually has to deal with balanced skills and loadouts, whereas other classes get to have skills that are powerful in all scenarios and loadouts.

NBrookus

Just have javelin pin people to the ground, they don't get knocked out of range but they still get CC'd.

Hutch679

Uhm the knock back is super broken. Yesterday I got hit by it and literally slid a good 15 meters, landed in the lava, then it wouldn't let me break free..... ripperoni.

Minno

danno8 wrote: »

IMO, Luminous Shards was the perfectly balanced version of an unblockable/undodgeable CC. You had to aim it on the ground, it had a small delay and a small tell as well, as you could see a spear indicator on the ground at cast time. It also didn't do large damage, it was instead a setup to do large damage.

All they had to do was make it so Burning Light didn't immediately break the disorient with either a damage limit, or a 1 second hard stun in conjunction with the disorient.

Of course what happens? They take away the most balanced CC in the game and instead give ridiculously strong unblockable/undodgeable and basically unavoidable CC with big damage as well to other classes.

That's the problem with playing Magplar, sometimes I feel like they are the only class in the game that actually has to deal with balanced skills and loadouts, whereas other classes get to have skills that are powerful in all scenarios and loadouts.

id argue nothing should be unavoidable without a heavy drawback.

want to use rune cage? then 50% extra cost to abilities for 4 seconds
Or simply return the frag stun like everyone is asking for.

Dredlord

DocFrost72 wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Nope don't turn it into an unblockable and undodgeable CC, either you have skills that go through block or dodge
(Jabs, solar barrage, beam, PotL) or the class should have access to an undodgeable, unblockable CC (like NB or DK) not both (like sorc has atm curse+rune cage)

Just make javalin into an blockable, dodgeable meele "low slash" with your spear that knocks people off their feet.
(Similar performance as reverb)

Such a CC is fine, add a decent secondary effect and Templars have a CC again.
Is it the best one in the game? Nope but it's much better than the buggy, templar toolkit unfriendly javalin.

How would you respond to the argument that every class and weapon line in the game has a skill that goes through block, and a skill that ignores dodging?

I respond with 2 questions.

1. please define what you mean by "goes through block".

2. Please list the skills that go through block for each class and weapon.

DocFrost72

Dredlord wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Nope don't turn it into an unblockable and undodgeable CC, either you have skills that go through block or dodge
(Jabs, solar barrage, beam, PotL) or the class should have access to an undodgeable, unblockable CC (like NB or DK) not both (like sorc has atm curse+rune cage)

Just make javalin into an blockable, dodgeable meele "low slash" with your spear that knocks people off their feet.
(Similar performance as reverb)

Such a CC is fine, add a decent secondary effect and Templars have a CC again.
Is it the best one in the game? Nope but it's much better than the buggy, templar toolkit unfriendly javalin.

How would you respond to the argument that every class and weapon line in the game has a skill that goes through block, and a skill that ignores dodging?

I respond with 2 questions.

1. please define what you mean by "goes through block".

2. Please list the skills that go through block for each class and weapon.

1) Any ability that has a component of damage that ignores the .5 damage multiplier granted by blocking when the damage is dealt. The poster I quoted gave a fine couple of examples: curse and power of the light (though the other morph also does this, not just potl)

2) Just go through block?

BOW: Poisoned arrow and morphs (dot), volley and morphs (entire ability). Honorable mention to Poisoned (not a skill though) effect.

DUAL WIELD: Twin slashes and morphs (dot), lacerate and morphs (dot, unsure if first hit is direct damage- need to test) Honorable mention goes to axe bleeds, though not a skill so not truly included.

TWO HANDED: Cleave and morphs (dot). Once more honorable mention to axe bleeds.

DESTRUCION STAFF: Wall of elements and morphs (dot), destructive touch and morphs (dot). Honorable mention to burning status effect.

ONE HAND AND SHIELD: None, I thought one morph of low slash bled: I will admit this weapon line does not have a block ignoring damage source. Not going to make the argument for a reflected stun with the ult, way too situational.

And that is *just* weapon lines, just block.

Edit for grammar.

BohnT

DocFrost72 wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Nope don't turn it into an unblockable and undodgeable CC, either you have skills that go through block or dodge
(Jabs, solar barrage, beam, PotL) or the class should have access to an undodgeable, unblockable CC (like NB or DK) not both (like sorc has atm curse+rune cage)

Just make javalin into an blockable, dodgeable meele "low slash" with your spear that knocks people off their feet.
(Similar performance as reverb)

Such a CC is fine, add a decent secondary effect and Templars have a CC again.
Is it the best one in the game? Nope but it's much better than the buggy, templar toolkit unfriendly javalin.

How would you respond to the argument that every class and weapon line in the game has a skill that goes through block, and a skill that ignores dodging?

By skills that go through block/ dodge i ment skills/ burst combos that actually matter in actual pvp combat in terms of bursting or killing people.

Classes:
Warden: shalks ignore block and dodge and hit incredibly hard and can be combined with other skills for high burst

Templar: Jabs ignore dodge while PotL/ Purifying light ignore dodge and block

NB: no meaningful offensive skill that goes through block or dodge but fear ignores both

DK: deep breath or talons go through dodge but don't deal enough damage to be a threat, fossilize goes through block and dodge

Sorc: curse goes through block and dodge rune cage goes through block and dodge


Weapon skill lines:
Bow: Bombard won't kill anyone, you'll run out of resources before the enemy dies

2h: cleave goes through dodge, the bleed ignores block however both aren't a threat on their own as the damage is really low

1h&s: no access to a skill that goes through block or dodge

Dualwield: steel tornado goes through dodge, rending slashes bleed goes through block

Destro: no skill that can be considered a threat in a fight

Resto: no damaging skills here

As you see in all weapon skill lines there is only one that can be considered strong and that's steel tornado.

And after it's change people even started to argue it's op: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/425154/what-is-the-most-op-thing-right-now-v2-0/p1

The only reason why it is an problem is that classes that already have access to undodgeable skills/ CCs can now apply much higher pressure to dodge builds.

The same thing happened when rune cage was changed it just opens up the ability to kill people too easily.

That's why i think a class should either be able to stun an enemy through block/ dodge or has skills that are a threat even when the enemy is blocking/ dodging.

Giving a class both of those things makes them too strong in many situations.

Zelos

I'm all for this... only if medium armor gets Major Protection 24/7 as a passive. Otherwise fuckk off with your undodgeable unblockable bulllshit, WHY DO YOU PEOPLE WANT MORE NO COUNTER PLAY SHITT

Jeezye

Hell in NO WAY I want another of these uncounterable CCs in the game! I agree that javelin itself is counterproductive to the templar toolkit, but on the other hand it is really fun to pair with other abilities like critrush or traps. Its unique, super fast, and for a ranged playstyle pretty welcome. I think the CC that templars are lacking should come from other sources. Gapclose for example is broken for ages now and would be a perfect fit...

Millz

I think adding a root to blocking targets would be interesting considering every class has a form of immoblization. It could use some reduced cost because on stamplar I cry when its dodged or blocked

DeadlyRecluse

As much as I'd love an undodgeable, unblockable CC, the game needs fewer of those, not more.

Make javelin "pin" the target to the ground (add a root) and I might be interested...

TequilaFire

Please leave Aurora Javelin alone, it is far too useful for taking out snipers on top of keeps and stun checking targets as you rush towards them. Make the other morph melee and stam if you will.

Drdeath20

TequilaFire wrote: »

Please leave Aurora Javelin alone, it is far too useful for taking out snipers on top of keeps and stun checking targets as you rush towards them. Make the other morph melee and stam if you will.

The knockback can be useful, sometimes. Id rather root that sniper and ,while they are rooted, my teamates lay a big scary burst on them. All the knockback is, is a minor nuisance.

technohic

I'd rather leave javelin alone. At least the stamina version is fine outside of being bugged where you can juggle someone in air if you hit them repeatedly with it. The magicka version sucks because it got less stun duration for more damage so I would assume get rid of the more damage to make it stun as long as the stam version.

Could use something else as an alternative without a knock back though

Dredlord

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Dredlord wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Nope don't turn it into an unblockable and undodgeable CC, either you have skills that go through block or dodge
(Jabs, solar barrage, beam, PotL) or the class should have access to an undodgeable, unblockable CC (like NB or DK) not both (like sorc has atm curse+rune cage)

Just make javalin into an blockable, dodgeable meele "low slash" with your spear that knocks people off their feet.
(Similar performance as reverb)

Such a CC is fine, add a decent secondary effect and Templars have a CC again.
Is it the best one in the game? Nope but it's much better than the buggy, templar toolkit unfriendly javalin.

How would you respond to the argument that every class and weapon line in the game has a skill that goes through block, and a skill that ignores dodging?

I respond with 2 questions.

1. please define what you mean by "goes through block".

2. Please list the skills that go through block for each class and weapon.

1) Any ability that has a component of damage that ignores the .5 damage multiplier granted by blocking when the damage is dealt. The poster I quoted gave a fine couple of examples: curse and power of the light (though the other morph also does this, not just potl)

2) Just go through block?

BOW: Poisoned arrow and morphs (dot), volley and morphs (entire ability). Honorable mention to Poisoned (not a skill though) effect.

DUAL WIELD: Twin slashes and morphs (dot), lacerate and morphs (dot, unsure if first hit is direct damage- need to test) Honorable mention goes to axe bleeds, though not a skill so not truly included.

TWO HANDED: Cleave and morphs (dot). Once more honorable mention to axe bleeds.

DESTRUCION STAFF: Wall of elements and morphs (dot), destructive touch and morphs (dot). Honorable mention to burning status effect.

ONE HAND AND SHIELD: None, I thought one morph of low slash bled: I will admit this weapon line does not have a block ignoring damage source. Not going to make the argument for a reflected stun with the ult, way too situational.

And that is *just* weapon lines, just block.

Edit for grammar.

Thank you for refuting your own argument and thank you for your honesty.

dodgehopper_ESO

Javelin is fine as is. What we need is more CC within the class.

dodgehopper_ESO

technohic wrote: »

I'd rather leave javelin alone. At least the stamina version is fine outside of being bugged where you can juggle someone in air if you hit them repeatedly with it. The magicka version sucks because it got less stun duration for more damage so I would assume get rid of the more damage to make it stun as long as the stam version.

Could use something else as an alternative without a knock back though

I like being able to knock enemies off of keeps. I would much prefer we had our Blinding Flashes back in an altered CC-oriented form personally. Why not add it to Blazing Shield. They've ruined that skill pretty well at least give it a little more umph and let it serve triple duty like the every other skill in every other class. How about make power of the light have a morph that keeps people out of stealth while they are at it. Why not also give the class some regeneration... Hmm. I could go on but I'll stop.

Dr.NRG

Gnozo wrote: »

Did you saw all the complains about rune cage being undodable and unblockable in addition to the huge range?
So you want literally the same for templar.

Not going to work tbh but templar really need a CC.

#giveshardsccback

lol dude you gotta see the problem and the difference with runcage being like this versus other skills. Runcage is not the skill itself but rather what this skill can comboed with and the range this can be done with. Sorcs have to many burst skills that are on a timer and thus runcage becomes op cause it takes away the counterplay at that point as all burst is lined up, explods, and you cant do nothing as you are locked in at that moment.
Besides that every class should have a stun that ignores block to allow counterplay to block builds.

dodgehopper_ESO

Dr.NRG wrote: »

Gnozo wrote: »

Did you saw all the complains about rune cage being undodable and unblockable in addition to the huge range?
So you want literally the same for templar.

Not going to work tbh but templar really need a CC.

#giveshardsccback

lol dude you gotta see the problem and the difference with runcage being like this versus other skills. Runcage is not the skill itself but rather what this skill can comboed with and the range this can be done with. Sorcs have to many burst skills that are on a timer and thus runcage becomes op cause it takes away the counterplay at that point as all burst is lined up, explods, and you cant do nothing as you are locked in at that moment.
Besides that every class should have a stun that ignores block to allow counterplay to block builds.

The problem with multiple rolling executes also is that it means Sorcerers get credit for more kills through no extra skill of their own. This wouldn't bother me exactly if the game system could recognize kills for characters that don't have multiple rolling executes like that. What do I mean by multiple rolling executes? Implosion. Fury. Curse. Frags. Overload. Its too passive and easy for them to get credit. That's a developer problem. Sorcerers are also pretty survivable. I find my Stamina Sorcerer is vastly tougher than my Stamina Templar for instance and puts most of my character's DD to shame.