Dear fake tanks who blame the healer

getemshauna

Guppet wrote: »

gethemshauna wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

gethemshauna wrote: »

sevomd69 wrote: »

40K+ HP is a crutch...an unnecessary one at that....

You have only words, I do have a lot of videos proving that 40k hp is minimum for efficient tanking. Still waiting for your proof that you are able to tank veteran content with 20k hp.
(And I don't think about Banished Cells or fungal grotto)

I met a guy in a random normal once. I was on a level 26, they were CP15, and the only player with a visible CP score in the dungeon. They insisted, swore up and down, that CP only applied in trials and dungeons. Now, I had 820something CP at the time, so I pointed out that they were mistaken, at which point they insisted that I should look on the internet. Right.

You remind me of that player.

I get nervous when my health is under 35k on a tank, but tanking as low as 30k is entirely viable if you know what you're doing.

Go on the internet, and you'll find someone saying the game is unplayable if your ping is over 50. You'll find someone saying that Alessia's Bullwark is the best taking set ever. You'll find someone saying you need 40k health to be a tank. You don't. You can tank vet with as little as 25k if both the tank and the healer really know their stuff. 35k's a reasonable number. However, if your tank has low health and dies a lot and doesn't taunt, that's a fake tank.

I'll skip first part.

Having 30k-35k is nervous indeed, and can finish a one-shot in multiple scenarios. Best example would be vCloudrest where you are getting healing debuff, and your big hp pool works out for you, leaving you a big reserve of taking damage. Your bigger max stam or mag max in that case doesn't matter, if you don't know how to manage resources on a tank you will end empty even with 30k max stam.
Another great example can be vHof Pinnacle Factotum boss. I know tanks here were even using Reavtive armor to survive attack while they're stunned even with 44k+ health.
If having lower mag or stam can be accepted just by learning how to play with that, and difference between it set at 20k or 25k is meaningless, difference between 35k and 40k hp in some scenarions can make you dead. Bigger HP pool is a clear winner, in terms of having no risk about dying, better scaling defensive options and even making healers' lifes easier.

This is about dungeons. Not trials. All you examples of needing huge health are trials. Trials require more, we all know this. Dungeons 35k is more than enough. What in any dungeon can one shot you on 35k that wouldn’t also kill at 45k? That’s 35k with 33221 resistance and -15% from maim too.

Again, earlier I mentioned I'm talking about tanking "serious content".
As long as I agree that you don't need 40k health in most veteran dungeons, few of them requires that (Fang Lair, Scalecaller, Bloodroot forge and the new one from the PTS).
But if you want to be a capable tank to do everything easily, including veteran trials, there is no reason to tank even easier content with that value of 30k hp. As long as you cover all support sets what means you increase DD's DPS by a lot, changing your attributes/mundus stone to reduce health and increase ur other stats won't make content faster, even if you don't need 40k hp in easy dungeons like Banished Cells, Fungal Grotto or City of Ash. So why even bother?

Spelling

Guppet

gethemshauna wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

gethemshauna wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

gethemshauna wrote: »

sevomd69 wrote: »

gethemshauna wrote: »

sevomd69 wrote: »

gethemshauna wrote: »

If tank has less than 40k hp it is not a tank.

You serious?

Ofcourse I am. What do you wanna stack on tank? Spell power? I talk about tanking serious content not overland delves.

LOL...I don't know if I'd want you tanking my "serious content" if I saw you with 40K+ health...

Do you even know the tank role in this game? You want to provide most buffs to the party and most debuffs to enemy to unlock most damage for your DDs. Except that, holding enemies (if possible) in single place again for maximizing damage. A lot of mechanics in this game requires from you to have this 40k hp (maintanking vAS hm or even few dlc dungeons, like bloodroot forge).
You want to have big hp pool to make it easy to healers to keep you alive and create a big reserve of taking damage. There is nothing to else to stack on tank. Or maybe tell me what content you acomplished with your 20k hp tank, and best would be showing a video

Spelling

You only need 30-35k health to easily clear all vet dungeons, dlc hardmodes included. That extra health could be better put to dps stats to make the whole thing quicker.

Also your healer should not be keeping you alive in vets, you can do the yourself with your 30-35k health. Your healer should mostly be dpsing and giving out resources.

In your scenario the tank is doing sod all dps and so is the healer. Must takes hours to do the vet dungeons lol.

Your tanking abilities like Piercing Armor or Deep Slash are not made for dpsing. Investing your stats into mag or stam (not saying about Triune or Tri Stat Glyphs) will not bring ANY impactful change on group dps you wanna achieve. You really think things will go quicker because you invested your attribute points into stamina instead of health? DPSing in this game works only if you are glass cannons with few defensive options (Bi stat food, Vigor, Blade cloak or Shields). That is how this game works, due to how are dps sources scaling with themselves. Raising your dps to 8k from 5k on a tank will not make any difference, and leaves you with a risk of dying, especially if you play without a healer, since your strongest selfheals and defensive options as a tank scale with max health. Maybe you think using Hunding's on tank instead of Alkosh will raise group dps?
Healer dpsing? Same story here. Your group will gain most dps when you focus on buffing, not dealing damage. Jorvuld with Warhorn or Olorime will obviously unlock more damage for group than healer with Julianos spamming Force Shock.

It’s not just about dps stats though is it.

If you have 45k health, but would have survived the content with 35k, then that 10k is utterly wasted.

It’s not like that extra 10k is just stats only. It’s about set bonus as well. If your not using those 10k of health bonus then it can be spent on other set bonus that will speed up things. It’s not just about scaling damage abilities, your damage abilities won’t scale well as tank.

You don’t increase dps as tank by putting points in stamina or magica, you do it by using proc or special sets, those don’t scale, so being a tank doesn’t limit thier impact.

This is how the meta comes about, by understanding mechanics on a deeper level. Akatosh didn’t happen by mistake it was due to this line of thought. You look at things that don’t scale and attribute them to people that can fit them in without impacting group dps.

For example.

Your 45k health tank compared to a 35k tank that uses thier set bonus to use Baharas curse or Thunderbug, heck even both (full 5 piece set bonus can equate to about 6k health). Which do you think will clear all the trash quicker? It’s not even a debate. Then on the boss, if the 35k can survive, it’s lost nothing but added a huge buff to AOE dps on the trash, even adds a fair bit on the boss.

This is all in relation to dungeons, on trials the buffing is a larger multiplier.

The thing is, I already mentioned few places where you will need that 45k health.

45k hp is EASILY obtainable with a Ebon/Alkosh set what is absolutely best option currently for tanks, because 1k additional health (which works with boosts like horn or passives) for allies is game changer, they feel more confident and it saves their lives unlimited times doing the encounter.

If you wanna go with pure health tank with sets like Greenpact or Plague Doctor it obviously doesn't make sense. I'm not talking about it, because in that scenario you would hit 60k hp what is completly unecessary.

Let me skip a part about Baharas or Thunderbug, because Alkosh outperforms both, in single target and AoE scenario. I agree with the fact that tank is buff/debuff machine, what you can find in my previous posts. But if you already cover that part, your best way to go is stacking statistics, focusing on health (Lord mundus stone for example). It's not hard to do and in the end makes you tanky, on resistance cap, having three support sets (with Thurvokun or Lord Warden), and 40k+ hp. 20k resources are absolutely not a problem, if you have some expirence how to manage it (Obsidian Shield, Balance, Deep thoughts, Belly Netch).
For proving you that you can cover all debuffs/buffs and still have easily 40k+ health to not dying even in hardest encounters, here are stats from my tank:
https://imgur.com/a/FnpdL0g
It's without major resistances and horn. And I obviously have Alkosh, Ebon and Thurvokun here. As you see, covering all supports sets and still having 47k hp is not a problem, and allows me to survive every content in the game easily.
EDIT: I want to mention that 20k stam and 18k mag is even more than I need to tank seamlessly.

I think your thinking of trials. In dungeons, it’s far from the best set up.

Ebon doesn’t save many lives at, all it’s about 7% more health. It’s a crutch. It’s only been worth it if a dps is on 7% or less health. If that doesn’t occur then ebon was a waste. It’s opportunity cost.

Alkosh doesn’t provide anywhere near the boost in 4 mans that it does in 12 man. You would need seriously good dps players (over 40k) for that to be better than either Baharas or Thunderbug in a 4 man.

Alkosh provides 3010 pen. That’s 5% more damage for the dps players, assuming they dont go over cap.

If you have dps players of that ability you are not going to struggle anyway.

Guess I’m just too used to carrying bad dps that I don’t see the value in buffing then that much.

It’s this line of thinking that makes people not want to tank. New people think you need to have these sets and you just don’t. They are boring as hell to use. You can enjoy tanking and have it be much more fun, all while still easily completing all content. You only need the meta for cutting edge, which is not most players.

Agenericname

I read this thread and didn't think much of it, then queued into the same dungeon and a very similar situation. The differences being, I wasn't being blamed, at least not in chat, and it wasn't just the tank that was squishy.

To be honest there was a point I was hoping to be kicked. I'd just queue up again and likely blow right through. In a way I'm glad that I stayed. It makes me appreciate a decent tank a little more and more likely to want to not be a PITA DD when I play mine.

getemshauna

Guppet wrote: »

gethemshauna wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

gethemshauna wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

gethemshauna wrote: »

sevomd69 wrote: »

gethemshauna wrote: »

sevomd69 wrote: »

gethemshauna wrote: »

If tank has less than 40k hp it is not a tank.

You serious?

Ofcourse I am. What do you wanna stack on tank? Spell power? I talk about tanking serious content not overland delves.

LOL...I don't know if I'd want you tanking my "serious content" if I saw you with 40K+ health...

Do you even know the tank role in this game? You want to provide most buffs to the party and most debuffs to enemy to unlock most damage for your DDs. Except that, holding enemies (if possible) in single place again for maximizing damage. A lot of mechanics in this game requires from you to have this 40k hp (maintanking vAS hm or even few dlc dungeons, like bloodroot forge).
You want to have big hp pool to make it easy to healers to keep you alive and create a big reserve of taking damage. There is nothing to else to stack on tank. Or maybe tell me what content you acomplished with your 20k hp tank, and best would be showing a video

Spelling

You only need 30-35k health to easily clear all vet dungeons, dlc hardmodes included. That extra health could be better put to dps stats to make the whole thing quicker.

Also your healer should not be keeping you alive in vets, you can do the yourself with your 30-35k health. Your healer should mostly be dpsing and giving out resources.

In your scenario the tank is doing sod all dps and so is the healer. Must takes hours to do the vet dungeons lol.

Your tanking abilities like Piercing Armor or Deep Slash are not made for dpsing. Investing your stats into mag or stam (not saying about Triune or Tri Stat Glyphs) will not bring ANY impactful change on group dps you wanna achieve. You really think things will go quicker because you invested your attribute points into stamina instead of health? DPSing in this game works only if you are glass cannons with few defensive options (Bi stat food, Vigor, Blade cloak or Shields). That is how this game works, due to how are dps sources scaling with themselves. Raising your dps to 8k from 5k on a tank will not make any difference, and leaves you with a risk of dying, especially if you play without a healer, since your strongest selfheals and defensive options as a tank scale with max health. Maybe you think using Hunding's on tank instead of Alkosh will raise group dps?
Healer dpsing? Same story here. Your group will gain most dps when you focus on buffing, not dealing damage. Jorvuld with Warhorn or Olorime will obviously unlock more damage for group than healer with Julianos spamming Force Shock.

It’s not just about dps stats though is it.

If you have 45k health, but would have survived the content with 35k, then that 10k is utterly wasted.

It’s not like that extra 10k is just stats only. It’s about set bonus as well. If your not using those 10k of health bonus then it can be spent on other set bonus that will speed up things. It’s not just about scaling damage abilities, your damage abilities won’t scale well as tank.

You don’t increase dps as tank by putting points in stamina or magica, you do it by using proc or special sets, those don’t scale, so being a tank doesn’t limit thier impact.

This is how the meta comes about, by understanding mechanics on a deeper level. Akatosh didn’t happen by mistake it was due to this line of thought. You look at things that don’t scale and attribute them to people that can fit them in without impacting group dps.

For example.

Your 45k health tank compared to a 35k tank that uses thier set bonus to use Baharas curse or Thunderbug, heck even both (full 5 piece set bonus can equate to about 6k health). Which do you think will clear all the trash quicker? It’s not even a debate. Then on the boss, if the 35k can survive, it’s lost nothing but added a huge buff to AOE dps on the trash, even adds a fair bit on the boss.

This is all in relation to dungeons, on trials the buffing is a larger multiplier.

The thing is, I already mentioned few places where you will need that 45k health.

45k hp is EASILY obtainable with a Ebon/Alkosh set what is absolutely best option currently for tanks, because 1k additional health (which works with boosts like horn or passives) for allies is game changer, they feel more confident and it saves their lives unlimited times doing the encounter.

If you wanna go with pure health tank with sets like Greenpact or Plague Doctor it obviously doesn't make sense. I'm not talking about it, because in that scenario you would hit 60k hp what is completly unecessary.

Let me skip a part about Baharas or Thunderbug, because Alkosh outperforms both, in single target and AoE scenario. I agree with the fact that tank is buff/debuff machine, what you can find in my previous posts. But if you already cover that part, your best way to go is stacking statistics, focusing on health (Lord mundus stone for example). It's not hard to do and in the end makes you tanky, on resistance cap, having three support sets (with Thurvokun or Lord Warden), and 40k+ hp. 20k resources are absolutely not a problem, if you have some expirence how to manage it (Obsidian Shield, Balance, Deep thoughts, Belly Netch).
For proving you that you can cover all debuffs/buffs and still have easily 40k+ health to not dying even in hardest encounters, here are stats from my tank:
https://imgur.com/a/FnpdL0g
It's without major resistances and horn. And I obviously have Alkosh, Ebon and Thurvokun here. As you see, covering all supports sets and still having 47k hp is not a problem, and allows me to survive every content in the game easily.
EDIT: I want to mention that 20k stam and 18k mag is even more than I need to tank seamlessly.

I think your thinking of trials. In dungeons, it’s far from the best set up.

Ebon doesn’t save many lives at, all it’s about 7% more health. It’s a crutch. It’s only been worth it if a dps is on 7% or less health. If that doesn’t occur then ebon was a waste. It’s opportunity cost.

Alkosh doesn’t provide anywhere near the boost in 4 mans that it does in 12 man. You would need seriously good dps players (over 40k) for that to be better than either Baharas or Thunderbug in a 4 man.

Alkosh provides 3010 pen. That’s 5% more damage for the dps players, assuming they dont go over cap.

If you have dps players of that ability you are not going to struggle anyway.

Guess I’m just too used to carrying bad dps that I don’t see the value in buffing then that much.

It’s this line of thinking that makes people not want to tank. New people think you need to have these sets and you just don’t. They are boring as hell to use. You can enjoy tanking and have it be much more fun, all while still easily completing all content. You only need the meta for cutting edge, which is not most players.

Yes, I think mostly of trials, but I mentioned earlier again few veteran dungeons require that value of hp from you.

Ebon does save many lives, and every experienced tank will agree here. I'm with you about a part that's more useful in raids than in dungeons, but again, there is no reason to not run it. It allows your dds to invest even more into damage than survability. 7% is indeed true when you have 15-16k health. But it's 7% for everyone.

After Sunderflame and Night Mother's Gaze sets changes it's really hard time to go into a pen cap for stamina players. They lost 8720 penetration from that change. Alkosh is golden here, and it's even more effective in AoE fights. Again, alkosh lets your dds to focus on raw stats than investing into penetration. Nowadays it's not really hard to achieve 40k dps, with current CP cap and light attack changes from summerset. And again, I wanna mention I talk about optimized group and serious content, what we all aim for.
If you have dps players of that ability you're not going to struggle, okay, so maybe I'll use Daedric Trickery on my tank, just for fun? I have strong dpses anyway. No. You are an important part of a group, what makes your dds "being at that ability".

Having supports sets are carrying bad dps by a ton. Alkosh and ebon especially does. And Alkosh's penetration debuff works even better if you have good players in team.

Boring as hell to use? You need to accept the fact game is oriented about DPS, and you should enjoy the fact that you enabled so much damage for your DD's, and they should enjoy having awesome tank in their group.

Guppet

gethemshauna wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

gethemshauna wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

gethemshauna wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

gethemshauna wrote: »

sevomd69 wrote: »

gethemshauna wrote: »

sevomd69 wrote: »

gethemshauna wrote: »

If tank has less than 40k hp it is not a tank.

You serious?

Ofcourse I am. What do you wanna stack on tank? Spell power? I talk about tanking serious content not overland delves.

LOL...I don't know if I'd want you tanking my "serious content" if I saw you with 40K+ health...

Do you even know the tank role in this game? You want to provide most buffs to the party and most debuffs to enemy to unlock most damage for your DDs. Except that, holding enemies (if possible) in single place again for maximizing damage. A lot of mechanics in this game requires from you to have this 40k hp (maintanking vAS hm or even few dlc dungeons, like bloodroot forge).
You want to have big hp pool to make it easy to healers to keep you alive and create a big reserve of taking damage. There is nothing to else to stack on tank. Or maybe tell me what content you acomplished with your 20k hp tank, and best would be showing a video

Spelling

You only need 30-35k health to easily clear all vet dungeons, dlc hardmodes included. That extra health could be better put to dps stats to make the whole thing quicker.

Also your healer should not be keeping you alive in vets, you can do the yourself with your 30-35k health. Your healer should mostly be dpsing and giving out resources.

In your scenario the tank is doing sod all dps and so is the healer. Must takes hours to do the vet dungeons lol.

Your tanking abilities like Piercing Armor or Deep Slash are not made for dpsing. Investing your stats into mag or stam (not saying about Triune or Tri Stat Glyphs) will not bring ANY impactful change on group dps you wanna achieve. You really think things will go quicker because you invested your attribute points into stamina instead of health? DPSing in this game works only if you are glass cannons with few defensive options (Bi stat food, Vigor, Blade cloak or Shields). That is how this game works, due to how are dps sources scaling with themselves. Raising your dps to 8k from 5k on a tank will not make any difference, and leaves you with a risk of dying, especially if you play without a healer, since your strongest selfheals and defensive options as a tank scale with max health. Maybe you think using Hunding's on tank instead of Alkosh will raise group dps?
Healer dpsing? Same story here. Your group will gain most dps when you focus on buffing, not dealing damage. Jorvuld with Warhorn or Olorime will obviously unlock more damage for group than healer with Julianos spamming Force Shock.

It’s not just about dps stats though is it.

If you have 45k health, but would have survived the content with 35k, then that 10k is utterly wasted.

It’s not like that extra 10k is just stats only. It’s about set bonus as well. If your not using those 10k of health bonus then it can be spent on other set bonus that will speed up things. It’s not just about scaling damage abilities, your damage abilities won’t scale well as tank.

You don’t increase dps as tank by putting points in stamina or magica, you do it by using proc or special sets, those don’t scale, so being a tank doesn’t limit thier impact.

This is how the meta comes about, by understanding mechanics on a deeper level. Akatosh didn’t happen by mistake it was due to this line of thought. You look at things that don’t scale and attribute them to people that can fit them in without impacting group dps.

For example.

Your 45k health tank compared to a 35k tank that uses thier set bonus to use Baharas curse or Thunderbug, heck even both (full 5 piece set bonus can equate to about 6k health). Which do you think will clear all the trash quicker? It’s not even a debate. Then on the boss, if the 35k can survive, it’s lost nothing but added a huge buff to AOE dps on the trash, even adds a fair bit on the boss.

This is all in relation to dungeons, on trials the buffing is a larger multiplier.

The thing is, I already mentioned few places where you will need that 45k health.

45k hp is EASILY obtainable with a Ebon/Alkosh set what is absolutely best option currently for tanks, because 1k additional health (which works with boosts like horn or passives) for allies is game changer, they feel more confident and it saves their lives unlimited times doing the encounter.

If you wanna go with pure health tank with sets like Greenpact or Plague Doctor it obviously doesn't make sense. I'm not talking about it, because in that scenario you would hit 60k hp what is completly unecessary.

Let me skip a part about Baharas or Thunderbug, because Alkosh outperforms both, in single target and AoE scenario. I agree with the fact that tank is buff/debuff machine, what you can find in my previous posts. But if you already cover that part, your best way to go is stacking statistics, focusing on health (Lord mundus stone for example). It's not hard to do and in the end makes you tanky, on resistance cap, having three support sets (with Thurvokun or Lord Warden), and 40k+ hp. 20k resources are absolutely not a problem, if you have some expirence how to manage it (Obsidian Shield, Balance, Deep thoughts, Belly Netch).
For proving you that you can cover all debuffs/buffs and still have easily 40k+ health to not dying even in hardest encounters, here are stats from my tank:
https://imgur.com/a/FnpdL0g
It's without major resistances and horn. And I obviously have Alkosh, Ebon and Thurvokun here. As you see, covering all supports sets and still having 47k hp is not a problem, and allows me to survive every content in the game easily.
EDIT: I want to mention that 20k stam and 18k mag is even more than I need to tank seamlessly.

I think your thinking of trials. In dungeons, it’s far from the best set up.

Ebon doesn’t save many lives at, all it’s about 7% more health. It’s a crutch. It’s only been worth it if a dps is on 7% or less health. If that doesn’t occur then ebon was a waste. It’s opportunity cost.

Alkosh doesn’t provide anywhere near the boost in 4 mans that it does in 12 man. You would need seriously good dps players (over 40k) for that to be better than either Baharas or Thunderbug in a 4 man.

Alkosh provides 3010 pen. That’s 5% more damage for the dps players, assuming they dont go over cap.

If you have dps players of that ability you are not going to struggle anyway.

Guess I’m just too used to carrying bad dps that I don’t see the value in buffing then that much.

It’s this line of thinking that makes people not want to tank. New people think you need to have these sets and you just don’t. They are boring as hell to use. You can enjoy tanking and have it be much more fun, all while still easily completing all content. You only need the meta for cutting edge, which is not most players.

Yes, I think mostly of trials, but I mentioned earlier again few veteran dungeons require that value of hp from you.

Ebon does save many lives, and every experienced tank will agree here. I'm with you about a part that's more useful in raids than in dungeons, but again, there is no reason to not run it. It allows your dds to invest even more into damage than survability.

After Sunderflame and Night Mother's Gaze sets changes it's really hard time to go into a pen cap for stamina players. Alkosh is golden here, and it's even more effective in AoE fights. Again, alkosh lets your dds to focus on raw stats than investing into penetration. Nowadays it's not really hard to achieve 40k dps, with current CP cap and light attack changes from summerset. And again, I wanna mention I talk about optimized group and serious content, what we all aim for.
If you have dps players of that ability you're not going to struggle, okay, so maybe I'll use Daedric Trickery on my tank, just for fun? I have strong dpses anyway. No. You are an important part of a group, what makes your dds "being at that ability".

Having supports sets are carrying bad dps by a ton. Alkosh and ebon especially does. And Alkosh's penetration debuff works even better if you have good players in team.

Boring as hell to use? You need to accept the fact game is oriented about DPS, and you should enjoy the fact that you enabled so much damage for your DD's, and they should enjoy having awesome tank in their group.

I get where your comming from. I do.

But your talking about seriously optimised groups.

The whole can you tank with 35k health, was about a player saying you need at least 40k health for dungeons.

Alkosh increase dps by 5% for those that are not at cap, that’s admittedly most people. But most people in dungeons don’t put out numbers that make 5% that great.

Seriously 2 40k dps players get 4K dps total from it. When your in a group that puts out 20k (if you’ve been reading these forums, you’ll know that’s not uncommon, in fact many wish the pug had that level of dps lol), that’s 1k dps. If your group puts out a total of 40k dps, that’s 2k from the proc. There is no content you can’t easily clear outside vet trial with 40k.

It’s just not needed and those that benefit most would breeze through the content anyway, so why don’t they just use what they enjoy.

I have not come up against anything in any vet dung that could kill me that I could not avoid with 35k health, not one. If you think there is one, name it.

getemshauna

Guppet wrote: »

gethemshauna wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

gethemshauna wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

gethemshauna wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

gethemshauna wrote: »

sevomd69 wrote: »

gethemshauna wrote: »

sevomd69 wrote: »

gethemshauna wrote: »

If tank has less than 40k hp it is not a tank.

You serious?

Ofcourse I am. What do you wanna stack on tank? Spell power? I talk about tanking serious content not overland delves.

LOL...I don't know if I'd want you tanking my "serious content" if I saw you with 40K+ health...

Do you even know the tank role in this game? You want to provide most buffs to the party and most debuffs to enemy to unlock most damage for your DDs. Except that, holding enemies (if possible) in single place again for maximizing damage. A lot of mechanics in this game requires from you to have this 40k hp (maintanking vAS hm or even few dlc dungeons, like bloodroot forge).
You want to have big hp pool to make it easy to healers to keep you alive and create a big reserve of taking damage. There is nothing to else to stack on tank. Or maybe tell me what content you acomplished with your 20k hp tank, and best would be showing a video

Spelling

You only need 30-35k health to easily clear all vet dungeons, dlc hardmodes included. That extra health could be better put to dps stats to make the whole thing quicker.

Also your healer should not be keeping you alive in vets, you can do the yourself with your 30-35k health. Your healer should mostly be dpsing and giving out resources.

In your scenario the tank is doing sod all dps and so is the healer. Must takes hours to do the vet dungeons lol.

Your tanking abilities like Piercing Armor or Deep Slash are not made for dpsing. Investing your stats into mag or stam (not saying about Triune or Tri Stat Glyphs) will not bring ANY impactful change on group dps you wanna achieve. You really think things will go quicker because you invested your attribute points into stamina instead of health? DPSing in this game works only if you are glass cannons with few defensive options (Bi stat food, Vigor, Blade cloak or Shields). That is how this game works, due to how are dps sources scaling with themselves. Raising your dps to 8k from 5k on a tank will not make any difference, and leaves you with a risk of dying, especially if you play without a healer, since your strongest selfheals and defensive options as a tank scale with max health. Maybe you think using Hunding's on tank instead of Alkosh will raise group dps?
Healer dpsing? Same story here. Your group will gain most dps when you focus on buffing, not dealing damage. Jorvuld with Warhorn or Olorime will obviously unlock more damage for group than healer with Julianos spamming Force Shock.

It’s not just about dps stats though is it.

If you have 45k health, but would have survived the content with 35k, then that 10k is utterly wasted.

It’s not like that extra 10k is just stats only. It’s about set bonus as well. If your not using those 10k of health bonus then it can be spent on other set bonus that will speed up things. It’s not just about scaling damage abilities, your damage abilities won’t scale well as tank.

You don’t increase dps as tank by putting points in stamina or magica, you do it by using proc or special sets, those don’t scale, so being a tank doesn’t limit thier impact.

This is how the meta comes about, by understanding mechanics on a deeper level. Akatosh didn’t happen by mistake it was due to this line of thought. You look at things that don’t scale and attribute them to people that can fit them in without impacting group dps.

For example.

Your 45k health tank compared to a 35k tank that uses thier set bonus to use Baharas curse or Thunderbug, heck even both (full 5 piece set bonus can equate to about 6k health). Which do you think will clear all the trash quicker? It’s not even a debate. Then on the boss, if the 35k can survive, it’s lost nothing but added a huge buff to AOE dps on the trash, even adds a fair bit on the boss.

This is all in relation to dungeons, on trials the buffing is a larger multiplier.

The thing is, I already mentioned few places where you will need that 45k health.

45k hp is EASILY obtainable with a Ebon/Alkosh set what is absolutely best option currently for tanks, because 1k additional health (which works with boosts like horn or passives) for allies is game changer, they feel more confident and it saves their lives unlimited times doing the encounter.

If you wanna go with pure health tank with sets like Greenpact or Plague Doctor it obviously doesn't make sense. I'm not talking about it, because in that scenario you would hit 60k hp what is completly unecessary.

Let me skip a part about Baharas or Thunderbug, because Alkosh outperforms both, in single target and AoE scenario. I agree with the fact that tank is buff/debuff machine, what you can find in my previous posts. But if you already cover that part, your best way to go is stacking statistics, focusing on health (Lord mundus stone for example). It's not hard to do and in the end makes you tanky, on resistance cap, having three support sets (with Thurvokun or Lord Warden), and 40k+ hp. 20k resources are absolutely not a problem, if you have some expirence how to manage it (Obsidian Shield, Balance, Deep thoughts, Belly Netch).
For proving you that you can cover all debuffs/buffs and still have easily 40k+ health to not dying even in hardest encounters, here are stats from my tank:
https://imgur.com/a/FnpdL0g
It's without major resistances and horn. And I obviously have Alkosh, Ebon and Thurvokun here. As you see, covering all supports sets and still having 47k hp is not a problem, and allows me to survive every content in the game easily.
EDIT: I want to mention that 20k stam and 18k mag is even more than I need to tank seamlessly.

I think your thinking of trials. In dungeons, it’s far from the best set up.

Ebon doesn’t save many lives at, all it’s about 7% more health. It’s a crutch. It’s only been worth it if a dps is on 7% or less health. If that doesn’t occur then ebon was a waste. It’s opportunity cost.

Alkosh doesn’t provide anywhere near the boost in 4 mans that it does in 12 man. You would need seriously good dps players (over 40k) for that to be better than either Baharas or Thunderbug in a 4 man.

Alkosh provides 3010 pen. That’s 5% more damage for the dps players, assuming they dont go over cap.

If you have dps players of that ability you are not going to struggle anyway.

Guess I’m just too used to carrying bad dps that I don’t see the value in buffing then that much.

It’s this line of thinking that makes people not want to tank. New people think you need to have these sets and you just don’t. They are boring as hell to use. You can enjoy tanking and have it be much more fun, all while still easily completing all content. You only need the meta for cutting edge, which is not most players.

Yes, I think mostly of trials, but I mentioned earlier again few veteran dungeons require that value of hp from you.

Ebon does save many lives, and every experienced tank will agree here. I'm with you about a part that's more useful in raids than in dungeons, but again, there is no reason to not run it. It allows your dds to invest even more into damage than survability.

After Sunderflame and Night Mother's Gaze sets changes it's really hard time to go into a pen cap for stamina players. Alkosh is golden here, and it's even more effective in AoE fights. Again, alkosh lets your dds to focus on raw stats than investing into penetration. Nowadays it's not really hard to achieve 40k dps, with current CP cap and light attack changes from summerset. And again, I wanna mention I talk about optimized group and serious content, what we all aim for.
If you have dps players of that ability you're not going to struggle, okay, so maybe I'll use Daedric Trickery on my tank, just for fun? I have strong dpses anyway. No. You are an important part of a group, what makes your dds "being at that ability".

Having supports sets are carrying bad dps by a ton. Alkosh and ebon especially does. And Alkosh's penetration debuff works even better if you have good players in team.

Boring as hell to use? You need to accept the fact game is oriented about DPS, and you should enjoy the fact that you enabled so much damage for your DD's, and they should enjoy having awesome tank in their group.

I get where your comming from. I do.

But your talking about seriously optimised groups.

The whole can you tank with 35k health, was about a player saying you need at least 40k health for dungeons.

Alkosh increase dps by 5% for those that are not at cap, that’s admittedly most people. But most people in dungeons don’t put out numbers that make 5% that great.

Seriously 2 40k dps players get 4K dps total from it. When your in a group that puts out 20k (if you’ve been reading these forums, you’ll know that’s not uncommon, in fact many wish the pug had that level of dps lol), that’s 1k dps. If your group puts out a total of 40k dps, that’s 2k from the proc. There is no content you can’t easily clear outside vet trial with 40k.

It’s just not needed and those that benefit most would breeze through the content anyway, so why don’t they just use what they enjoy.

I have not come up against anything in any vet dung that could kill me that I could not avoid with 35k health, not one. If you think there is one, name it.

Seriously optimised group, or not. Both cases will appreciate setup I am recommending above.

Please, read my posts carefully. To not repeat myself, I'll quote what I've written earlier.
"As long as I agree that you don't need 40k health in most veteran dungeons, few of them requires that (Fang Lair, Scalecaller, Bloodroot forge and the new one from the PTS).
But if you want to be a capable tank to do everything easily, including veteran trials, there is no reason to tank even easier content with that value of 30k hp. As long as you cover all support sets what means you increase DD's DPS by a lot, changing your attributes/mundus stone to reduce health and increase ur other stats won't make content faster, even if you don't need 40k hp in easy dungeons like Banished Cells, Fungal Grotto or City of Ash. So why even bother?"

Alkosh will increase dps for 5% for everyone, because if you want to count penetration you're aiming for, you ALWAYS include Alkosh into. Even if someone isn't expirenced enough in the game, who doesn't know what Penetration Cap is, will benefit from Alkosh since hitting 18200 penetration in veteran content requires from you (for example as a stamina player) having two penetration sets, penetration mundus stone and points into Piercing. Believe me, everyone will benefit from it.
Alkosh is also AoE, and does around 1.5k-2k DPS, so except the fact you increase dps by 5% for everyone, in every situation (even stronger in trash packs) you can also do some damage what you're literally fightning for.

Call a set that will increase group dps more than 8k as a tank if your dds are pulling 40k dps.
And I'll repeat myself again, because you can't remember what I wrote earlier. I talk about serious content. If someone is pulling 10k dps and is constantly dying, problem lies in being unexpirenced at the game at all, not because tank uses wrong sets. Have that in mind.

Argument about having strong dpses that are breezing content without issues, so you can use random sets is stupid again. You are important part of ddies breezing through a content. It's because how you stack enemies for them, how you debuff, how you keep them alive. When you put 4 dds into veteran Fang Lair, they will not reach the second boss, because of oneshot mechanics that tank can survive.

I will name. Earthgore, Galchobhar, Zaan, Doylemish Ironheart, Matriarch Aldis. First few that comes to my mind, from veteran dungeons. And it's not like you can't tank it with 35k hp, because you can, but having 40k+ makes you safe, prevents from random deaths, leaves you higher reserve of health to loss, makes your healer job easier, and I'm curious where would you like to put your attributes into, instead of health. Improving your max mag and max stam is not worth in cost of health, what gives you nothing (raising dps by 1-2k from taunt lol), and puts you on risk you will die. If you are running out of your 20k max stam as a tank, you will run aswell when you'd have 25k, and it's because you don't know how to manage it, not because your max pool is too low.

munster1404

Tbh, I have only played vanilla vet HM dungeons. And I put points into my hp based on how much damage the end boss deals while I drop block. Bosses like Bogdan and the Whisperer deal about 18K to 22K damage. So my main tank character has around 41K hp.

Guppet

gethemshauna wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

gethemshauna wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

gethemshauna wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

gethemshauna wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

gethemshauna wrote: »

sevomd69 wrote: »

gethemshauna wrote: »

sevomd69 wrote: »

gethemshauna wrote: »

If tank has less than 40k hp it is not a tank.

You serious?

Ofcourse I am. What do you wanna stack on tank? Spell power? I talk about tanking serious content not overland delves.

LOL...I don't know if I'd want you tanking my "serious content" if I saw you with 40K+ health...

Do you even know the tank role in this game? You want to provide most buffs to the party and most debuffs to enemy to unlock most damage for your DDs. Except that, holding enemies (if possible) in single place again for maximizing damage. A lot of mechanics in this game requires from you to have this 40k hp (maintanking vAS hm or even few dlc dungeons, like bloodroot forge).
You want to have big hp pool to make it easy to healers to keep you alive and create a big reserve of taking damage. There is nothing to else to stack on tank. Or maybe tell me what content you acomplished with your 20k hp tank, and best would be showing a video

Spelling

You only need 30-35k health to easily clear all vet dungeons, dlc hardmodes included. That extra health could be better put to dps stats to make the whole thing quicker.

Also your healer should not be keeping you alive in vets, you can do the yourself with your 30-35k health. Your healer should mostly be dpsing and giving out resources.

In your scenario the tank is doing sod all dps and so is the healer. Must takes hours to do the vet dungeons lol.

Your tanking abilities like Piercing Armor or Deep Slash are not made for dpsing. Investing your stats into mag or stam (not saying about Triune or Tri Stat Glyphs) will not bring ANY impactful change on group dps you wanna achieve. You really think things will go quicker because you invested your attribute points into stamina instead of health? DPSing in this game works only if you are glass cannons with few defensive options (Bi stat food, Vigor, Blade cloak or Shields). That is how this game works, due to how are dps sources scaling with themselves. Raising your dps to 8k from 5k on a tank will not make any difference, and leaves you with a risk of dying, especially if you play without a healer, since your strongest selfheals and defensive options as a tank scale with max health. Maybe you think using Hunding's on tank instead of Alkosh will raise group dps?
Healer dpsing? Same story here. Your group will gain most dps when you focus on buffing, not dealing damage. Jorvuld with Warhorn or Olorime will obviously unlock more damage for group than healer with Julianos spamming Force Shock.

It’s not just about dps stats though is it.

If you have 45k health, but would have survived the content with 35k, then that 10k is utterly wasted.

It’s not like that extra 10k is just stats only. It’s about set bonus as well. If your not using those 10k of health bonus then it can be spent on other set bonus that will speed up things. It’s not just about scaling damage abilities, your damage abilities won’t scale well as tank.

You don’t increase dps as tank by putting points in stamina or magica, you do it by using proc or special sets, those don’t scale, so being a tank doesn’t limit thier impact.

This is how the meta comes about, by understanding mechanics on a deeper level. Akatosh didn’t happen by mistake it was due to this line of thought. You look at things that don’t scale and attribute them to people that can fit them in without impacting group dps.

For example.

Your 45k health tank compared to a 35k tank that uses thier set bonus to use Baharas curse or Thunderbug, heck even both (full 5 piece set bonus can equate to about 6k health). Which do you think will clear all the trash quicker? It’s not even a debate. Then on the boss, if the 35k can survive, it’s lost nothing but added a huge buff to AOE dps on the trash, even adds a fair bit on the boss.

This is all in relation to dungeons, on trials the buffing is a larger multiplier.

The thing is, I already mentioned few places where you will need that 45k health.

45k hp is EASILY obtainable with a Ebon/Alkosh set what is absolutely best option currently for tanks, because 1k additional health (which works with boosts like horn or passives) for allies is game changer, they feel more confident and it saves their lives unlimited times doing the encounter.

If you wanna go with pure health tank with sets like Greenpact or Plague Doctor it obviously doesn't make sense. I'm not talking about it, because in that scenario you would hit 60k hp what is completly unecessary.

Let me skip a part about Baharas or Thunderbug, because Alkosh outperforms both, in single target and AoE scenario. I agree with the fact that tank is buff/debuff machine, what you can find in my previous posts. But if you already cover that part, your best way to go is stacking statistics, focusing on health (Lord mundus stone for example). It's not hard to do and in the end makes you tanky, on resistance cap, having three support sets (with Thurvokun or Lord Warden), and 40k+ hp. 20k resources are absolutely not a problem, if you have some expirence how to manage it (Obsidian Shield, Balance, Deep thoughts, Belly Netch).
For proving you that you can cover all debuffs/buffs and still have easily 40k+ health to not dying even in hardest encounters, here are stats from my tank:
https://imgur.com/a/FnpdL0g
It's without major resistances and horn. And I obviously have Alkosh, Ebon and Thurvokun here. As you see, covering all supports sets and still having 47k hp is not a problem, and allows me to survive every content in the game easily.
EDIT: I want to mention that 20k stam and 18k mag is even more than I need to tank seamlessly.

I think your thinking of trials. In dungeons, it’s far from the best set up.

Ebon doesn’t save many lives at, all it’s about 7% more health. It’s a crutch. It’s only been worth it if a dps is on 7% or less health. If that doesn’t occur then ebon was a waste. It’s opportunity cost.

Alkosh doesn’t provide anywhere near the boost in 4 mans that it does in 12 man. You would need seriously good dps players (over 40k) for that to be better than either Baharas or Thunderbug in a 4 man.

Alkosh provides 3010 pen. That’s 5% more damage for the dps players, assuming they dont go over cap.

If you have dps players of that ability you are not going to struggle anyway.

Guess I’m just too used to carrying bad dps that I don’t see the value in buffing then that much.

It’s this line of thinking that makes people not want to tank. New people think you need to have these sets and you just don’t. They are boring as hell to use. You can enjoy tanking and have it be much more fun, all while still easily completing all content. You only need the meta for cutting edge, which is not most players.

Yes, I think mostly of trials, but I mentioned earlier again few veteran dungeons require that value of hp from you.

Ebon does save many lives, and every experienced tank will agree here. I'm with you about a part that's more useful in raids than in dungeons, but again, there is no reason to not run it. It allows your dds to invest even more into damage than survability.

After Sunderflame and Night Mother's Gaze sets changes it's really hard time to go into a pen cap for stamina players. Alkosh is golden here, and it's even more effective in AoE fights. Again, alkosh lets your dds to focus on raw stats than investing into penetration. Nowadays it's not really hard to achieve 40k dps, with current CP cap and light attack changes from summerset. And again, I wanna mention I talk about optimized group and serious content, what we all aim for.
If you have dps players of that ability you're not going to struggle, okay, so maybe I'll use Daedric Trickery on my tank, just for fun? I have strong dpses anyway. No. You are an important part of a group, what makes your dds "being at that ability".

Having supports sets are carrying bad dps by a ton. Alkosh and ebon especially does. And Alkosh's penetration debuff works even better if you have good players in team.

Boring as hell to use? You need to accept the fact game is oriented about DPS, and you should enjoy the fact that you enabled so much damage for your DD's, and they should enjoy having awesome tank in their group.

I get where your comming from. I do.

But your talking about seriously optimised groups.

The whole can you tank with 35k health, was about a player saying you need at least 40k health for dungeons.

Alkosh increase dps by 5% for those that are not at cap, that’s admittedly most people. But most people in dungeons don’t put out numbers that make 5% that great.

Seriously 2 40k dps players get 4K dps total from it. When your in a group that puts out 20k (if you’ve been reading these forums, you’ll know that’s not uncommon, in fact many wish the pug had that level of dps lol), that’s 1k dps. If your group puts out a total of 40k dps, that’s 2k from the proc. There is no content you can’t easily clear outside vet trial with 40k.

It’s just not needed and those that benefit most would breeze through the content anyway, so why don’t they just use what they enjoy.

I have not come up against anything in any vet dung that could kill me that I could not avoid with 35k health, not one. If you think there is one, name it.

Seriously optimised group, or not. Both cases will appreciate setup I am recommending above.

Please, read my posts carefully. To not repeat myself, I'll quote what I've written earlier.
"As long as I agree that you don't need 40k health in most veteran dungeons, few of them requires that (Fang Lair, Scalecaller, Bloodroot forge and the new one from the PTS).
But if you want to be a capable tank to do everything easily, including veteran trials, there is no reason to tank even easier content with that value of 30k hp. As long as you cover all support sets what means you increase DD's DPS by a lot, changing your attributes/mundus stone to reduce health and increase ur other stats won't make content faster, even if you don't need 40k hp in easy dungeons like Banished Cells, Fungal Grotto or City of Ash. So why even bother?"

Alkosh will increase dps for 5% for everyone, because if you want to count penetration you're aiming for, you ALWAYS include Alkosh into. Even if someone isn't expirenced enough in the game, who doesn't know what Penetration Cap is, will benefit from Alkosh since hitting 18200 penetration in veteran content requires from you (for example as a stamina player) having two penetration sets, penetration mundus stone and points into Piercing. Believe me, everyone will benefit from it.
Alkosh is also AoE, and does around 1.5k-2k DPS, so except the fact you increase dps by 5% for everyone, in every situation (even stronger in trash packs) you can also do some damage what you're literally fightning for.

Call a set that will increase group dps more than 8k as a tank if your dds are pulling 40k dps.
And I'll repeat myself again, because you can't remember what I wrote earlier. I talk about serious content. If someone is pulling 10k dps and is constantly dying, problem lies in being unexpirenced at the game at all, not because tank uses wrong sets. Have that in mind.

Argument about having strong dpses that are breezing content without issues, so you can use random sets is stupid again. You are important part of ddies breezing through a content. It's because how you stack enemies for them, how you debuff, how you keep them alive. When you put 4 dds into veteran Fang Lair, they will not reach the second boss, because of oneshot mechanics that tank can survive.

I will name. Earthgore, Galchobhar, Zaan, Doylemish Ironheart, Matriarch Aldis. First few that comes to my mind, from veteran dungeons. And it's not like you can't tank it with 35k hp, because you can, but having 40k+ makes you safe, prevents from random deaths, leaves you higher reserve of health to loss, makes your healer job easier, and I'm curious where would you like to put your attributes into, instead of health. Improving your max mag and max stam is not worth in cost of health, what gives you nothing (raising dps by 1-2k from taunt lol), and puts you on risk you will die. If you are running out of your 20k max stam as a tank, you will run aswell when you'd have 25k, and it's because you don't know how to manage it, not because your max pool is too low.

We are going round in circles here, both agreeing with each other lol.

Simple fact is that outside of trials, you can complete any vet dungeon with 35k health, assuming you know what your doing. I do understand that that’s not a given.

40k health is only needed if you don’t know what you are doing. It’s more leeway obviously.

I would also suggest that someone with the meta set up is likely to know what they are doing, which is ironic given they will have that leeway, which they won’t need.

The inexperienced people that may need 40k health are not likely to have access to the meta gear anyway.

Anyway I’m done arguing. Feel free to come post in my where is the meta actually needed thread.

Anotherone773

If you die in a dungeon there is a:

*60% chance it is your fault
*20 % chance it is the game's fault( lag, bugs,etc)
*10% chance its the tanks fault( didnt block, taunt, or move the boss properly)
*10% chance its the healers fault( didnt heal, wasnt paying attention, etc)

getemshauna

Guppet wrote: »

gethemshauna wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

gethemshauna wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

gethemshauna wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

gethemshauna wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

gethemshauna wrote: »

sevomd69 wrote: »

gethemshauna wrote: »

sevomd69 wrote: »

gethemshauna wrote: »

If tank has less than 40k hp it is not a tank.

You serious?

Ofcourse I am. What do you wanna stack on tank? Spell power? I talk about tanking serious content not overland delves.

LOL...I don't know if I'd want you tanking my "serious content" if I saw you with 40K+ health...

Do you even know the tank role in this game? You want to provide most buffs to the party and most debuffs to enemy to unlock most damage for your DDs. Except that, holding enemies (if possible) in single place again for maximizing damage. A lot of mechanics in this game requires from you to have this 40k hp (maintanking vAS hm or even few dlc dungeons, like bloodroot forge).
You want to have big hp pool to make it easy to healers to keep you alive and create a big reserve of taking damage. There is nothing to else to stack on tank. Or maybe tell me what content you acomplished with your 20k hp tank, and best would be showing a video

Spelling

You only need 30-35k health to easily clear all vet dungeons, dlc hardmodes included. That extra health could be better put to dps stats to make the whole thing quicker.

Also your healer should not be keeping you alive in vets, you can do the yourself with your 30-35k health. Your healer should mostly be dpsing and giving out resources.

In your scenario the tank is doing sod all dps and so is the healer. Must takes hours to do the vet dungeons lol.

Your tanking abilities like Piercing Armor or Deep Slash are not made for dpsing. Investing your stats into mag or stam (not saying about Triune or Tri Stat Glyphs) will not bring ANY impactful change on group dps you wanna achieve. You really think things will go quicker because you invested your attribute points into stamina instead of health? DPSing in this game works only if you are glass cannons with few defensive options (Bi stat food, Vigor, Blade cloak or Shields). That is how this game works, due to how are dps sources scaling with themselves. Raising your dps to 8k from 5k on a tank will not make any difference, and leaves you with a risk of dying, especially if you play without a healer, since your strongest selfheals and defensive options as a tank scale with max health. Maybe you think using Hunding's on tank instead of Alkosh will raise group dps?
Healer dpsing? Same story here. Your group will gain most dps when you focus on buffing, not dealing damage. Jorvuld with Warhorn or Olorime will obviously unlock more damage for group than healer with Julianos spamming Force Shock.

It’s not just about dps stats though is it.

If you have 45k health, but would have survived the content with 35k, then that 10k is utterly wasted.

It’s not like that extra 10k is just stats only. It’s about set bonus as well. If your not using those 10k of health bonus then it can be spent on other set bonus that will speed up things. It’s not just about scaling damage abilities, your damage abilities won’t scale well as tank.

You don’t increase dps as tank by putting points in stamina or magica, you do it by using proc or special sets, those don’t scale, so being a tank doesn’t limit thier impact.

This is how the meta comes about, by understanding mechanics on a deeper level. Akatosh didn’t happen by mistake it was due to this line of thought. You look at things that don’t scale and attribute them to people that can fit them in without impacting group dps.

For example.

Your 45k health tank compared to a 35k tank that uses thier set bonus to use Baharas curse or Thunderbug, heck even both (full 5 piece set bonus can equate to about 6k health). Which do you think will clear all the trash quicker? It’s not even a debate. Then on the boss, if the 35k can survive, it’s lost nothing but added a huge buff to AOE dps on the trash, even adds a fair bit on the boss.

This is all in relation to dungeons, on trials the buffing is a larger multiplier.

The thing is, I already mentioned few places where you will need that 45k health.

45k hp is EASILY obtainable with a Ebon/Alkosh set what is absolutely best option currently for tanks, because 1k additional health (which works with boosts like horn or passives) for allies is game changer, they feel more confident and it saves their lives unlimited times doing the encounter.

If you wanna go with pure health tank with sets like Greenpact or Plague Doctor it obviously doesn't make sense. I'm not talking about it, because in that scenario you would hit 60k hp what is completly unecessary.

Let me skip a part about Baharas or Thunderbug, because Alkosh outperforms both, in single target and AoE scenario. I agree with the fact that tank is buff/debuff machine, what you can find in my previous posts. But if you already cover that part, your best way to go is stacking statistics, focusing on health (Lord mundus stone for example). It's not hard to do and in the end makes you tanky, on resistance cap, having three support sets (with Thurvokun or Lord Warden), and 40k+ hp. 20k resources are absolutely not a problem, if you have some expirence how to manage it (Obsidian Shield, Balance, Deep thoughts, Belly Netch).
For proving you that you can cover all debuffs/buffs and still have easily 40k+ health to not dying even in hardest encounters, here are stats from my tank:
https://imgur.com/a/FnpdL0g
It's without major resistances and horn. And I obviously have Alkosh, Ebon and Thurvokun here. As you see, covering all supports sets and still having 47k hp is not a problem, and allows me to survive every content in the game easily.
EDIT: I want to mention that 20k stam and 18k mag is even more than I need to tank seamlessly.

I think your thinking of trials. In dungeons, it’s far from the best set up.

Ebon doesn’t save many lives at, all it’s about 7% more health. It’s a crutch. It’s only been worth it if a dps is on 7% or less health. If that doesn’t occur then ebon was a waste. It’s opportunity cost.

Alkosh doesn’t provide anywhere near the boost in 4 mans that it does in 12 man. You would need seriously good dps players (over 40k) for that to be better than either Baharas or Thunderbug in a 4 man.

Alkosh provides 3010 pen. That’s 5% more damage for the dps players, assuming they dont go over cap.

If you have dps players of that ability you are not going to struggle anyway.

Guess I’m just too used to carrying bad dps that I don’t see the value in buffing then that much.

It’s this line of thinking that makes people not want to tank. New people think you need to have these sets and you just don’t. They are boring as hell to use. You can enjoy tanking and have it be much more fun, all while still easily completing all content. You only need the meta for cutting edge, which is not most players.

Yes, I think mostly of trials, but I mentioned earlier again few veteran dungeons require that value of hp from you.

Ebon does save many lives, and every experienced tank will agree here. I'm with you about a part that's more useful in raids than in dungeons, but again, there is no reason to not run it. It allows your dds to invest even more into damage than survability.

After Sunderflame and Night Mother's Gaze sets changes it's really hard time to go into a pen cap for stamina players. Alkosh is golden here, and it's even more effective in AoE fights. Again, alkosh lets your dds to focus on raw stats than investing into penetration. Nowadays it's not really hard to achieve 40k dps, with current CP cap and light attack changes from summerset. And again, I wanna mention I talk about optimized group and serious content, what we all aim for.
If you have dps players of that ability you're not going to struggle, okay, so maybe I'll use Daedric Trickery on my tank, just for fun? I have strong dpses anyway. No. You are an important part of a group, what makes your dds "being at that ability".

Having supports sets are carrying bad dps by a ton. Alkosh and ebon especially does. And Alkosh's penetration debuff works even better if you have good players in team.

Boring as hell to use? You need to accept the fact game is oriented about DPS, and you should enjoy the fact that you enabled so much damage for your DD's, and they should enjoy having awesome tank in their group.

I get where your comming from. I do.

But your talking about seriously optimised groups.

The whole can you tank with 35k health, was about a player saying you need at least 40k health for dungeons.

Alkosh increase dps by 5% for those that are not at cap, that’s admittedly most people. But most people in dungeons don’t put out numbers that make 5% that great.

Seriously 2 40k dps players get 4K dps total from it. When your in a group that puts out 20k (if you’ve been reading these forums, you’ll know that’s not uncommon, in fact many wish the pug had that level of dps lol), that’s 1k dps. If your group puts out a total of 40k dps, that’s 2k from the proc. There is no content you can’t easily clear outside vet trial with 40k.

It’s just not needed and those that benefit most would breeze through the content anyway, so why don’t they just use what they enjoy.

I have not come up against anything in any vet dung that could kill me that I could not avoid with 35k health, not one. If you think there is one, name it.

Seriously optimised group, or not. Both cases will appreciate setup I am recommending above.

Please, read my posts carefully. To not repeat myself, I'll quote what I've written earlier.
"As long as I agree that you don't need 40k health in most veteran dungeons, few of them requires that (Fang Lair, Scalecaller, Bloodroot forge and the new one from the PTS).
But if you want to be a capable tank to do everything easily, including veteran trials, there is no reason to tank even easier content with that value of 30k hp. As long as you cover all support sets what means you increase DD's DPS by a lot, changing your attributes/mundus stone to reduce health and increase ur other stats won't make content faster, even if you don't need 40k hp in easy dungeons like Banished Cells, Fungal Grotto or City of Ash. So why even bother?"

Alkosh will increase dps for 5% for everyone, because if you want to count penetration you're aiming for, you ALWAYS include Alkosh into. Even if someone isn't expirenced enough in the game, who doesn't know what Penetration Cap is, will benefit from Alkosh since hitting 18200 penetration in veteran content requires from you (for example as a stamina player) having two penetration sets, penetration mundus stone and points into Piercing. Believe me, everyone will benefit from it.
Alkosh is also AoE, and does around 1.5k-2k DPS, so except the fact you increase dps by 5% for everyone, in every situation (even stronger in trash packs) you can also do some damage what you're literally fightning for.

Call a set that will increase group dps more than 8k as a tank if your dds are pulling 40k dps.
And I'll repeat myself again, because you can't remember what I wrote earlier. I talk about serious content. If someone is pulling 10k dps and is constantly dying, problem lies in being unexpirenced at the game at all, not because tank uses wrong sets. Have that in mind.

Argument about having strong dpses that are breezing content without issues, so you can use random sets is stupid again. You are important part of ddies breezing through a content. It's because how you stack enemies for them, how you debuff, how you keep them alive. When you put 4 dds into veteran Fang Lair, they will not reach the second boss, because of oneshot mechanics that tank can survive.

I will name. Earthgore, Galchobhar, Zaan, Doylemish Ironheart, Matriarch Aldis. First few that comes to my mind, from veteran dungeons. And it's not like you can't tank it with 35k hp, because you can, but having 40k+ makes you safe, prevents from random deaths, leaves you higher reserve of health to loss, makes your healer job easier, and I'm curious where would you like to put your attributes into, instead of health. Improving your max mag and max stam is not worth in cost of health, what gives you nothing (raising dps by 1-2k from taunt lol), and puts you on risk you will die. If you are running out of your 20k max stam as a tank, you will run aswell when you'd have 25k, and it's because you don't know how to manage it, not because your max pool is too low.

We are going round in circles here, both agreeing with each other lol.

Simple fact is that outside of trials, you can complete any vet dungeon with 35k health, assuming you know what your doing. I do understand that that’s not a given.

40k health is only needed if you don’t know what you are doing. It’s more leeway obviously.

I would also suggest that someone with the meta set up is likely to know what they are doing, which is ironic given they will have that leeway, which they won’t need.

The inexperienced people that may need 40k health are not likely to have access to the meta gear anyway.

Anyway I’m done arguing. Feel free to come post in my where is the meta actually needed thread.

Okay, let's summarize is then, what my ultimate point is.
Having 35k maximum health allows you to complete veteran dungeons (in trials I wouldn't risk, and best example here is vAS hardmode), but having 40k+ health comes by itself, using tri-stat glyphs, putting 64 poins in attributes, having Triune trait on jewerly, and using Lord Mundus stone. By this way, you're still able to have every debuff/buff set in the game, keep your health at level where you can complete EVERYTHING without issues, without putting pressure on your healers, and not giving up on anything important. Because the only thing that you can exchange your health for, is magicka/stamina, what will give you absolutely nothing, where health gives something.
Inexpirenced people? You can get Alkosh in normal MoL, what requires nothing competetive from you, and Ebon is avalibe in Crypt of Hearts, again on normal. Those two sets every tank should have avalibe.

I'm done here aswell, everything is included in my previous posts.
Have a nice day.