Counters to Shadow Image teleportation?

technohic

It’s funny because for as good as it is in a resource tower, once Vivec gets going, you pretty much hit your key to activate shadow image, don’t see it for 3 seconds. Hit it again to make sure you have an out when the Zerg zeroes I’m in you, then wind up teleporting to your shade which just appeared right by you.

At the same time, I came across a DK who did nothing but stand in one spot spamming defense on a flag in Bruma and leaping every now and then and could barely scratch him with NPCs. Beat on him for a while just to see how far I could get. Best was about 1/3-1/2 If I stored up everything for a CC. Went to just go away and saw 2 guys show up to start beating on him. Just /sitchair and watched and they didn’t even budge him 1/4 heath.

Point is there is a lot of things that are futile 1v1.

Nerftheforums

HankTwo wrote: »

lazerlaz wrote: »

I iust stay near the shade they summon when I see it.

Or I set myself in a position where I can anticipate them teleporting and get there right away.

Especially in a Xv1 situation, if I see multiple people attacking a magnb I'll just sit back and hangout at the shade, bring out the popcorn, and wait

Either they gonna kill em anyway or you stop their escape.

Yeah, I also wait at the shade when other players fight the NB. Doesn't work in a 1v1 though.

So you are basically asking to nerf a skill properly used by "competent nbs" because they can escape your attempt of zerging?

In a 1v1 a nb is super difficult to fight without proper counters, and shade offers none, it's true. You gotta learn how to burst a nb properly in order to prevent them to shade away. And again, don't get kited. Don't play the nb's game. You gotta fight were YOU want, if you let the nb decide where to fight you lost even before starting the fight. Stay close to the shade and don't chase, burst when they go on the offensive and ensure there is no los close to you for them to place a shade behind. Tricky, but totally feasible.

HankTwo

Nerftheforums wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

lazerlaz wrote: »

I iust stay near the shade they summon when I see it.

Or I set myself in a position where I can anticipate them teleporting and get there right away.

Especially in a Xv1 situation, if I see multiple people attacking a magnb I'll just sit back and hangout at the shade, bring out the popcorn, and wait

Either they gonna kill em anyway or you stop their escape.

Yeah, I also wait at the shade when other players fight the NB. Doesn't work in a 1v1 though.

So you are basically asking to nerf a skill properly used by "competent nbs" because they can escape your attempt of zerging?

In a 1v1 a nb is super difficult to fight without proper counters, and shade offers none, it's true. You gotta learn how to burst a nb properly in order to prevent them to shade away. And again, don't get kited. Don't play the nb's game. You gotta fight were YOU want, if you let the nb decide where to fight you lost even before starting the fight. Stay close to the shade and don't chase, burst when they go on the offensive and ensure there is no los close to you for them to place a shade behind. Tricky, but totally feasible.

Your initial statement makes zero sense if you would have actually read this thread. This is getting quite annoying and I don't want to repeat myself any longer.

About your remaining points: so shade offers no counters in a 1v1 and that's my problem right there. The other stuff was already discussed earlier.

HankTwo

technohic wrote: »

It’s funny because for as good as it is in a resource tower, once Vivec gets going, you pretty much hit your key to activate shadow image, don’t see it for 3 seconds. Hit it again to make sure you have an out when the Zerg zeroes I’m in you, then wind up teleporting to your shade which just appeared right by you.

At the same time, I came across a DK who did nothing but stand in one spot spamming defense on a flag in Bruma and leaping every now and then and could barely scratch him with NPCs. Beat on him for a while just to see how far I could get. Best was about 1/3-1/2 If I stored up everything for a CC. Went to just go away and saw 2 guys show up to start beating on him. Just /sitchair and watched and they didn’t even budge him 1/4 heath.

Point is there is a lot of things that are futile 1v1.

We then get to ask ourselves if it should be like that. In general offence should always be stronger than defense because no one likes endless fights with no conclusion.

In my opinion no matter the build there should always be another build from another class that can defeat the former independently of the terrain in a 1v1 with no luck involved and about equal player skill. If that's not the case then to me it looks like a serious balance issue but of course you can have a different take on that.

Gprime31

Teleporting back to shade on same plane is fine, but 2 or 3 floors vertical is a bit much.

Sparr0w

NB's are the squishiest class yes? StamNB's only heal is 1k heal per light/heavy attack (which gets halved in PvP). Trade off for this they have arguably the best damage and the best get away skill.

Plus all defensive skills cost magicka, so can't be used frequently, cloak = 3 times max, that's 6 seconds before their out of defense. Shade = 2 casts, then a 15-20 second wait until they can use it again.

Therefore the counter, exactly the same as a sorc, is either stun to prevent them doing so, or sit on them and drain resources. After that you have a 15 second window where their only defense is roll dodging.

Chilly-McFreeze

Sparr0w wrote: »

NB's are the squishiest class yes? StamNB's only heal is 1k heal per light/heavy attack (which gets halved in PvP). Trade off for this they have arguably the best damage and the best get away skill.

Plus all defensive skills cost magicka, so can't be used frequently, cloak = 3 times max, that's 6 seconds before their out of defense. Shade = 2 casts, then a 15-20 second wait until they can use it again.

Therefore the counter, exactly the same as a sorc, is either stun to prevent them doing so, or sit on them and drain resources. After that you have a 15 second window where their only defense is roll dodging.

Uh. Now that's a stretch. Not that I agree with the "shade is op" or even "NBs are OP" topics, but you need some perspective.

What makes stamNBs squishy?

Is it the short amount of Major Ward/Resolve you get after using Surprise Attack, Cloak, Fear or Shade? You can extend that with each piece of heavy armor by 25%. Granted, it's a bit shorter than other skills MJ/MW duration but you've got ways to mitigate direct and dot damage other classes can only dream of.

The bad healing? First off, it's not 1k but 1452 without CP, heavy, racials, buffs (and debuffs + battle spirit). It's on your sustain tool and procs on attacks that costs no resources. Only downside is that the restored resource is the same that is used for the cost. Plus, like everyone else, you too have access to rally and vigor.

Defensive skills cost magicka? Like, I don't know, Spiked Armor, GDB, Wings on DK etc? Surge, Defensive Rune, Streak, Dark Deal on stam sorcs. Shall I continue?

"then 15-20 second wait until they can use it again". Do you know how often I can streak on a stamsorc with several tri-stats enchants and Dunmer passives? Two times in a row. But I know I could use my mag skills more often if I invest even more into max mag or mag recovery. Same goes for you. Don't expect to have a realibly defense through mag skills if you run with the bare minimum base stats/regen.

It's the same for all stam classes. NBs are and should be no exception. Only difference is that cloak is either too good or totally worthless, depending on the situation.

SilverWF

Next thread: " NBs still can move, this must be fixed ASAP!"

HankTwo

SilverWF wrote: »

Next thread: " NBs still can move, this must be fixed ASAP!"

Would be better if you could provide some actual new points instead of trying to ridicule the thread.

Xvorg

Some counters to shade:

1- if magicka char, put a volcanic rune at the shade
2- if a NB, put a fear rune at the shade
3- if a templar, cast Ritual of Retribution near the shade
4- if a Sorc, cast mines around the shade. Lightning splash also helps if you are a magsorc
5- if a DK, cast ash cloud around the shade
6. if stam char, and the NB is a vamp or WW, place a turn undead around
7. if a stam char and the NB not being a vamp or WW, place a rearming trap at the shade
8. if using a destro staff, blockade or elemental ring
9. combine one or two of those

HankTwo

Xvorg wrote: »

Some counters to shade:

1- if magicka char, put a volcanic rune at the shade
2- if a NB, put a fear rune at the shade
3- if a templar, cast Ritual of Retribution near the shade
4- if a Sorc, cast mines around the shade. Lightning splash also helps if you are a magsorc
5- if a DK, cast ash cloud around the shade
6. if stam char, and the NB is a vamp or WW, place a turn undead around
7. if a stam char and the NB not being a vamp or WW, place a rearming trap at the shade
8. if using a destro staff, blockade or elemental ring
9. combine one or two of those

I actually had the chance to test some more stuff today (on a my stam DK). There was a NB in one of the resource towers being attacked by 3-4 other players and he used shade like I explained earlier to 1vX them a bit. I did not really attacked the NB but instead used the situation to test some skills on the shade and how it would change their battle against the NB. Other than that I just stood back and observed.

1. Tested this today, the NB was not stunned a single time by volcanic rune. It seems he always teleported after getting stunned so he still had the immunity up (that's also my experience when fighting a NB in tower myself). He instantly recast shade and cloaked after the rune exploded - damage was not enough to dent him (I played a stam char though)
2. Same as 1. but NBs can counter shadow image with their own shadow image anyway
3. Not enough damage
4. About the mines: such NBs always have access to snare/immobilization immunity so that won't work (I have seen magsorcs trying this a couple of times; also see 7. since the skills are similar)
5. Same as 4., snare immunity makes this useless. I tested this myself (and also caltrops)
6. Tooltip says this fears on cast. If that's not the case and it fears upon entering then it's still as ineffective as 1.
7. Same as 4., tested this and damage was not enough (on stam char) - that's why I believe that even on mag chars a single volcanic rune wouldn't do enough damage
8. Haven't tested this in such a situation, but i guess the damage is also not enough to get the NB killed. Also lasts only 8 seconds.
9. Using multiple skills to counter a single one is a hard stretch because then you have to fight the NB with less skills as long as he doesn't teleport. Furthermore, I don't think there are any 2 skills on a stam char that would be enough (on a well rounded build). Maybe 3 would be enough but that's a big no. On a magsorc I could see using mines + volcanic rune + delayed damage work but I don't play one so I can't test this.

Feanor

You don’t catch an NB who knows how to kite most times. That’s just how it is.

Chilly-McFreeze

Feanor wrote: »

You don’t catch an NB who knows how to kite most times. That’s just how it is.

Which, by itself, I don't think is an issue. But we don't have to wonder why threads like this pop up after the forum had it's fair share of things like "dk wings counter my magblade" and "nerf sorc mobility".

Jeezye

Of course all NB mains immediatly rant about their beloved skills xD The skill is, in the hands of an experienced player, indeed very hard to counter and I defintaly see your point (being a magblade main on my own). However, it is one of the class defining skills that you should just accept. It needs preparation, well execution and doesnt provide a whole lot besides a "get out of jail" ticket. If you really wanna counter it, don't let the nightblade dictate the fight and usethe counters already mentioned in this thread.

SneaK

Lol.

There’s a NB in a tower that is making no contribution to the campaign and you’re making posts about how to counter this????

Why does that need a hard counter? Honest question. (Edited to say “hard” counter since so many have already enlightened OP on many available counters)

Equivalent to a MagDK w Wings standing on the boat by Alessia. What to do? He’ll fossilize you in the water if you try to go get him, and he’ll reflect your ranged attacks! Oh my! That’s right, he’s doing nothing impactful whatsoever so it’s probably safe to say just leave the troll alone, much like this whole forum post.

Tzayad

Everything in the game does not need a direct counter

Karivaa

Shades don’t last that long.

SilverWF

Tzayad wrote: »

Everything in the game does not need a direct counter

Free beer to that guy!

Zeromaz

I don’t understand the point of this thread. Its an escape mechanic.... if there were counters for it, it wouldn’t be an escape mechanic now would it? This forum gets worse every day

Ender1310

HankTwo wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

Fight near the shade (if possible) or force the NB out of its teleport range. Don't let the NB dictate, where to fight. Only works if the NB actually wants to fight you though.

The player that is on the defensive can always dictate the general direction (where both players move) of the fight. So what happens is that a NB tries to capture a resource for example. As a solo player you engage and a fight begins at the tower. Whenever the NB gets to something like 40% health he teleports and resets his health. Now if the NB would actually run away it would be fine. But often they reengage or try to capture the resource again and again. So what am I supposed to do? Camp at the resource long enough that the NB goes away or let him just capture it? Both options are bad gameplay design.

Maybe the NB should ask the Devs to nerf you? I feel like your the OP one in this situation. He can't kill you no matter how hard he tries huh? After ganking from the shadows and all his Op'ed teleport and he just can't kill you. Nerf yourself.

Different classes have different strengths. Temps/DK's are the "stand your ground" classes, sorcs are the lite skilled mobile/tanky (shield) class Wardens are healy/if you get close shalks eat class. NB's are the I have to run away to survive class.
I don't see anything wrong with this. Trust me he is putting way more skill into running away with the amount of dots and such things that break stealth in this game. Shade lasts for 20 seconds if I remember correctly.

HankTwo

Ender1310 wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

Fight near the shade (if possible) or force the NB out of its teleport range. Don't let the NB dictate, where to fight. Only works if the NB actually wants to fight you though.

The player that is on the defensive can always dictate the general direction (where both players move) of the fight. So what happens is that a NB tries to capture a resource for example. As a solo player you engage and a fight begins at the tower. Whenever the NB gets to something like 40% health he teleports and resets his health. Now if the NB would actually run away it would be fine. But often they reengage or try to capture the resource again and again. So what am I supposed to do? Camp at the resource long enough that the NB goes away or let him just capture it? Both options are bad gameplay design.

Maybe the NB should ask the Devs to nerf you? I feel like your the OP one in this situation. He can't kill you no matter how hard he tries huh? After ganking from the shadows and all his Op'ed teleport and he just can't kill you. Nerf yourself.

Different classes have different strengths. Temps/DK's are the "stand your ground" classes, sorcs are the lite skilled mobile/tanky (shield) class Wardens are healy/if you get close shalks eat class. NB's are the I have to run away to survive class.
I don't see anything wrong with this. Trust me he is putting way more skill into running away with the amount of dots and such things that break stealth in this game. Shade lasts for 20 seconds if I remember correctly.

Usually I win against stamblades who spec for burst but lose against bleedblades. Of course skill is also a huge factor.

I created this thread because I couldn't see me killing a stamblade in such a situation (without luck) no matter how much more skilled I would get and no matter how I would change my build (sure I could build for super high burst with no defense, but then I would be the one who ends up dead instead). That's where I see/saw the problem, so I just wanted to know the experience of players who main other classes and how they possibly counter this.

I thought about it again the last couple of days and to me the fairest change would be to just remove ongoing stun as well as snare/immobilization immunity the moment a player teleports. This wouldn't change how Shadow Image works 99% of the time but if another player actually bothered to place a rune/mine/trap on the shade it would work as a reliable counter.

NBrookus

NBs are like Barbie, they have everything. But this skill is really not OP in any way.

There's some stuff you can't counter in this game on a given class or spec. As long as it's not killing you without reasonable counterplay options, it's fine. Catching a massively mobile class on one of the worst mobility classes in the game is just probably not going to happen.

ezeepeezee

Ender1310 wrote: »

..Trust me he is putting way more skill into running away with the amount of dots and such things that break stealth in this game. Shade lasts for 20 seconds if I remember correctly.

You mean Sload's? Which is getting fixed? Killing a NB with DoTs isn't feasible.

Xvorg

HankTwo wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Some counters to shade:

1- if magicka char, put a volcanic rune at the shade
2- if a NB, put a fear rune at the shade
3- if a templar, cast Ritual of Retribution near the shade
4- if a Sorc, cast mines around the shade. Lightning splash also helps if you are a magsorc
5- if a DK, cast ash cloud around the shade
6. if stam char, and the NB is a vamp or WW, place a turn undead around
7. if a stam char and the NB not being a vamp or WW, place a rearming trap at the shade
8. if using a destro staff, blockade or elemental ring
9. combine one or two of those

I actually had the chance to test some more stuff today (on a my stam DK). There was a NB in one of the resource towers being attacked by 3-4 other players and he used shade like I explained earlier to 1vX them a bit. I did not really attacked the NB but instead used the situation to test some skills on the shade and how it would change their battle against the NB. Other than that I just stood back and observed.

1. Tested this today, the NB was not stunned a single time by volcanic rune. It seems he always teleported after getting stunned so he still had the immunity up (that's also my experience when fighting a NB in tower myself). He instantly recast shade and cloaked after the rune exploded - damage was not enough to dent him (I played a stam char though)
2. Same as 1. but NBs can counter shadow image with their own shadow image anyway
3. Not enough damage
4. About the mines: such NBs always have access to snare/immobilization immunity so that won't work (I have seen magsorcs trying this a couple of times; also see 7. since the skills are similar)
5. Same as 4., snare immunity makes this useless. I tested this myself (and also caltrops)
6. Tooltip says this fears on cast. If that's not the case and it fears upon entering then it's still as ineffective as 1.
7. Same as 4., tested this and damage was not enough (on stam char) - that's why I believe that even on mag chars a single volcanic rune wouldn't do enough damage
8. Haven't tested this in such a situation, but i guess the damage is also not enough to get the NB killed. Also lasts only 8 seconds.
9. Using multiple skills to counter a single one is a hard stretch because then you have to fight the NB with less skills as long as he doesn't teleport. Furthermore, I don't think there are any 2 skills on a stam char that would be enough (on a well rounded build). Maybe 3 would be enough but that's a big no. On a magsorc I could see using mines + volcanic rune + delayed damage work but I don't play one so I can't test this.

At the shade...

edit: not all counters end with the dead of the enemy. If you made them run away, you won, that's all.

HankTwo

Xvorg wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Some counters to shade:

1- if magicka char, put a volcanic rune at the shade
2- if a NB, put a fear rune at the shade
3- if a templar, cast Ritual of Retribution near the shade
4- if a Sorc, cast mines around the shade. Lightning splash also helps if you are a magsorc
5- if a DK, cast ash cloud around the shade
6. if stam char, and the NB is a vamp or WW, place a turn undead around
7. if a stam char and the NB not being a vamp or WW, place a rearming trap at the shade
8. if using a destro staff, blockade or elemental ring
9. combine one or two of those

I actually had the chance to test some more stuff today (on a my stam DK). There was a NB in one of the resource towers being attacked by 3-4 other players and he used shade like I explained earlier to 1vX them a bit. I did not really attacked the NB but instead used the situation to test some skills on the shade and how it would change their battle against the NB. Other than that I just stood back and observed.

1. Tested this today, the NB was not stunned a single time by volcanic rune. It seems he always teleported after getting stunned so he still had the immunity up (that's also my experience when fighting a NB in tower myself). He instantly recast shade and cloaked after the rune exploded - damage was not enough to dent him (I played a stam char though)
2. Same as 1. but NBs can counter shadow image with their own shadow image anyway
3. Not enough damage
4. About the mines: such NBs always have access to snare/immobilization immunity so that won't work (I have seen magsorcs trying this a couple of times; also see 7. since the skills are similar)
5. Same as 4., snare immunity makes this useless. I tested this myself (and also caltrops)
6. Tooltip says this fears on cast. If that's not the case and it fears upon entering then it's still as ineffective as 1.
7. Same as 4., tested this and damage was not enough (on stam char) - that's why I believe that even on mag chars a single volcanic rune wouldn't do enough damage
8. Haven't tested this in such a situation, but i guess the damage is also not enough to get the NB killed. Also lasts only 8 seconds.
9. Using multiple skills to counter a single one is a hard stretch because then you have to fight the NB with less skills as long as he doesn't teleport. Furthermore, I don't think there are any 2 skills on a stam char that would be enough (on a well rounded build). Maybe 3 would be enough but that's a big no. On a magsorc I could see using mines + volcanic rune + delayed damage work but I don't play one so I can't test this.

At the shade...

edit: not all counters end with the dead of the enemy. If you made them run away, you won, that's all.

Of course at the shade, what the hell did you think?
Quote: 'I used the situation to test some skills on the shade'
lol x)

From my testing I can tell you that aside from a little bit of damage basically none of these skills do anything impactful, hence why I think a stun and snare/immobilization immunity removal upon teleportation would be a fair change to shadow image. It should be more rewarding if you manage to spot the shade and actually bother to place a stationary skill directly on top of it imo.

Jaxaxo

U can always use chains and jump from the tower to pull him down, dont u?

HankTwo

Jaxaxo wrote: »

U can always use chains and jump from the tower to pull him down, dont u?

I tested chains as well and they also don't work, since the NB can just teleport right after getting chained. Which results in me falling on the ground while the NB gets back into the tower in an instant.

Jaxaxo

Jokes aside, I will try not to shame or anything and actually discuss topic.

1. Imo shade is meant to be 1vx skill. If nb is using it in pure 1v1 situaion (no other players, mobs) to los using floors/rocks he's bad. But i still think in duel situations, when u dont have los it's balanced, let u reposition, break melee range (especially usefull for magblades cuz lack of root/snare removal/immunity vs heavy cc classes like magdks). It's nice defense mechanic.

2. In 1v1 situations in tower (or anywhere tbh) ground effects placed on shade are usually useless from my experience. They can be annoying, they can help u fight guy, but they propably wont kill guy. Maybe mines, from all those they have decent dmg and can help secure kill by getting enought dmg to proc execute.

3. If u're playing semitank it clearly means u dont have enough dmg to kill guy. And like other ppl posted before, get low, lure guy into going offensive and kill him.

4. Like i said shade is meant to be solo skill. It's useless in groups higher than 4 imo (for example mirrage or deadly cloak or any other skill u didnt have place for on bars, u need to have more dmg to be able to kill ppl faster, or tankier, to be able to help group mates. Running away with shade is not helping your group). Check who's using shade, usually (not always of course) are ppl trying to play on their own or in really small groups. So u're it means u're complaying u cant kill (or zerg) solo guy and u're frustrated. Zerging and zergsurfing nb's usually dont use shade. No need, cuz the can just run away to their blob and snipe from it.

5. Other thing, imo if u're figthing in tower u dont really need to use shade. Tower provides enough los and tricks to kite ppl sucesfully. But like i said before, if 1 guy is running away from pure 1v1 in tower (or any los, cuz u can even do this with small tree), then he's bad.

6. If u want to fight those guys why going to resources then? Take your own and fight other ppl there. Dont be thirsty to chase nb into tower and let it be. If he really wants to fight u, he will follow u. Then 'U" can choose place to fight when he wont be able to los with shade. Like i said before, i think shade in pure duel situations is fine, a bit like streak.

7. There are hardcounters in this game. Shade may look for u like it a bit, but it's countering your lust to kill guy. There are worse thing imo . And u dont need to look far. Wings. Example from yesterday. Wings, if u build enough mag regen (which is not needed to be really high) u can just shut down most of magsorcs and magblades. And they cant do ANYTHING with it. In my opinion my friend is clearly better than u, but u counter him fully with just using wings every 6-8 sec. And he cant do anything with it. But on ther other side u wasnt able to kill him, even with wings, so my point with u playing semitank seems more viable. I think next patch will be kinda hard for sorcs and nbs cuz of it, wings are getting more and more popular.

8. On cp it's more noticable, but even on noncp it's possible to see this. Most of builds wont be able to kill guy who is turtiling (playing totally defensive). And u dont need shade for it.

About your ideas tbh, even before fully reading your post (later I realised u wrote it) the idea with synergy came to my mind. Sth like u make shadow path synergy which let u follow nb into place he ported. Make it short time (like 1-2 sec before it disappear), single one (only 1 guy can follow u, it disappear after using it) and make it work for both enemies and friends (would make mechanic much funnier and let nb actually help friends in any way, make it more group viable), whoever reacts faster. But like u said, there would be a lot of problems with ppl abusing it on keeps, so not sure if it's even posibble, or ZOS will care. Making it not working in keeps/outposts range would be ok, but ye. A lot of changes and programming, propably not worth time.

amir412

As stamina, place a trap beast under the shadow, he teleports and insta use hard cc on him.
He gets the dots, immoblized and stunned, while ure getting more crit dmg and cool arms glow

Killset

HankTwo wrote: »

Killset wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

This move doesn't need a nerf. I've seen many, many Nightblades use this, and there has yet been one that's been able to escape me. Proper usage of this skill seems to be for the more talented of the Nightblades. I don't believe punishing good foresight is a good idea.

Interesting, so you were able to kill NBs using shade on something like the resource towers reliable while playing another class? Can you tell us which class and what general setup (you don't have to tell the build)?

Undefwun wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

[

Seriously you don't have to be so defensive about it, you know? I just wanna have a discussion here.

Just look at how other defense/escape mechanics have well working counter play (again: streak --> gap closer, cloak --> detect pots/AOEs and so on). So, what is the counter to NBs using Shadow Image teleportation to disengage a fight and heal up? If they teleport with a reasonable amount of health left (which competent NBs will do) then trap/mine skills or a single projectile following the NB through the walls won't do enough damage to kill the player.

Even the magsorc earlier which obviously uses a lot of delayed damage skills told me that it's usually a hopeless fight for him and only with a lucky shot he was able to kill such a NB player.

Shade is our counter to massive dmg while wearing light. So you want a counter to the counter

We can’t face tank massive offence. I can spam ward once or twice, till I can cloak or port.

I have to say it's usually stamblades that utilize this skill to the extreme since magblades are still affected by snares and roots.

The_Outsider wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Killset wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

I don't know if you are trolling or serious.

First of all, the new Psijic ultimate has a similar (not the 'same' ... just 'similar') functionality to the teleport shade. You can jump off walls (and teleport back), you can play 'hide-and-seek', you can LOS, etc. Yes, it's an ultimate, whereas the shade is not, but that's not the point. The point is that any class has access to 'teleporting'. NBs have it as a skill because it's part of our defense. People seem to forget we have no class shields and no class purge, and a very lack-luster HOT (actually, all our HOTs are very lack luster, especially if your a stamblade). NBs primary defense is to kite, LOS, roll-dodge. You may not like that, you may find it exceedingly annoying, but that doesn't make it 'OP.'

You want to know how to counter? The skill costs magica - there are alchemical poisons that significantly increase the cost of magica abilities (and I do mean significantly). There is also lightweight beast trap - you can place it at the shadow's location while at range. You can place a fear trap on the shadow (no, it doesn't effect the shadow, but it will effect the NB who teleports there). You can camp the shadow in stealth. I forget who said it, but if you shoot an arrow (snipe) at the NB right before they teleport, the arrow will follow them. You can place a 'volcanic rune' at the location of the shade while at range (the rune lasts a fairly long time -- when an enemy enters the rune it knocks them into the air and stuns them). You know, there are other measures that can be used, but I'm not going to list anymore. The best thing you could do for yourself is to spend some time learning more about the game and the game mechanics. (This includes learning the ins-and-outs of all the class skills, guild skills, world skills, weapon skills as well as the passives. Just reading about them isn't enough, but at least it's a start). Granted, this can take a chunk of time, but in the end, you will be a much better player for doing so, and you will be able to figure many things out for yourself.

I had in mind writing about Undo but the post was already very long so I didn't include it. For me its hard to compare because as you said Undo is an ultimate. Additionally it directly shows you where the enemy moves to and it takes a bit of time for them to reach the position. It also takes you to the point where you were 4 seconds ago so its much harder to plan where to go.


About the rest: I basically already talked about the stuff you wrote there except for the magicka cost poisons (thanks for that input, I have to test it if its reliable in preventing stamblades from teleporting but I doubt it). From my experience stuff like trap beast or a single projectile are simply not enough to secure the kill against a competent NB player because they will teleport with enough health to survive it. The main problem stands that you can't apply additional pressure after the teleportation for quite some time.

Edit: I have 0 issues with normal kiting and roll-dodging. This is specifically about the ability of the Shadow Image teleportation to go through walls and ignore vertical distance.

I think everyone is missing the actual point. You feel you are entitled to “secure the kill against a competent NB player.” You are not. There are a lot of powerful escape mechanics in this game and I for one am glad for it. PvP would suck if death were a forgone conclusion the split second a bigger group, better player, better build, whatever, layed eyes on you.

So, what's your take on this? Should I just give up fighting competent NBs when objects are around because I will never get the kill anyway even though I could overpower them on an open field/without shade?

What's the solution then, calling other players and Xv1 him/her down? Seems pretty disappointing to met to be honest.

@HankTwo
Look at it this way. You have to assign multiple conditions for this to even work in the NBs favor at all: Shade is more complex to use than most abilities, he has to find adequate terrain advantages (towers, large rocks, ect), he has to have the snare removal to get away from you, he has to have the mit/healing to survive your damage long enough to gain LoS...

If a player is able to accomplish all that against an opponent, maybe he/she should have an advantage in the terrain of their choosing?

I could wrap my brain around reducing the range of the shade 1 or 2 meters, but pls let's not remove functionality from the ability. IMO this falls under the 'super fun and unique gameplay mechanic' umbrella.

I agree 100% that this skill is not a problem concerning 90-95% of the NBs around (just like block was never a problem concerning most players). It is not some skill that just magically makes you a better player when using it.

However, I still believe that when mastered and the conditions are met it's just too strong. You can't increase the effectiveness of other skills to such an extend by just learning when/how to use them. It can basically be something like ignore all additional incoming damage while doing no damage yourself for some time.

About the last part: Yeah I can see that. Maybe a new skill that would let you teleport a single time to an enemy when he/she uses a skill like shadow image/streak/frozen retreat could work?

HankTwo wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

This move doesn't need a nerf. I've seen many, many Nightblades use this, and there has yet been one that's been able to escape me. Proper usage of this skill seems to be for the more talented of the Nightblades. I don't believe punishing good foresight is a good idea.

Interesting, so you were able to kill NBs using shade on something like the resource towers reliable while playing another class? Can you tell us which class and what general setup (you don't have to tell the build)?

Undefwun wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

[

Seriously you don't have to be so defensive about it, you know? I just wanna have a discussion here.

Just look at how other defense/escape mechanics have well working counter play (again: streak --> gap closer, cloak --> detect pots/AOEs and so on). So, what is the counter to NBs using Shadow Image teleportation to disengage a fight and heal up? If they teleport with a reasonable amount of health left (which competent NBs will do) then trap/mine skills or a single projectile following the NB through the walls won't do enough damage to kill the player.

Even the magsorc earlier which obviously uses a lot of delayed damage skills told me that it's usually a hopeless fight for him and only with a lucky shot he was able to kill such a NB player.

Shade is our counter to massive dmg while wearing light. So you want a counter to the counter

We can’t face tank massive offence. I can spam ward once or twice, till I can cloak or port.

I have to say it's usually stamblades that utilize this skill to the extreme since magblades are still affected by snares and roots.

The_Outsider wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Killset wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

I don't know if you are trolling or serious.

First of all, the new Psijic ultimate has a similar (not the 'same' ... just 'similar') functionality to the teleport shade. You can jump off walls (and teleport back), you can play 'hide-and-seek', you can LOS, etc. Yes, it's an ultimate, whereas the shade is not, but that's not the point. The point is that any class has access to 'teleporting'. NBs have it as a skill because it's part of our defense. People seem to forget we have no class shields and no class purge, and a very lack-luster HOT (actually, all our HOTs are very lack luster, especially if your a stamblade). NBs primary defense is to kite, LOS, roll-dodge. You may not like that, you may find it exceedingly annoying, but that doesn't make it 'OP.'

You want to know how to counter? The skill costs magica - there are alchemical poisons that significantly increase the cost of magica abilities (and I do mean significantly). There is also lightweight beast trap - you can place it at the shadow's location while at range. You can place a fear trap on the shadow (no, it doesn't effect the shadow, but it will effect the NB who teleports there). You can camp the shadow in stealth. I forget who said it, but if you shoot an arrow (snipe) at the NB right before they teleport, the arrow will follow them. You can place a 'volcanic rune' at the location of the shade while at range (the rune lasts a fairly long time -- when an enemy enters the rune it knocks them into the air and stuns them). You know, there are other measures that can be used, but I'm not going to list anymore. The best thing you could do for yourself is to spend some time learning more about the game and the game mechanics. (This includes learning the ins-and-outs of all the class skills, guild skills, world skills, weapon skills as well as the passives. Just reading about them isn't enough, but at least it's a start). Granted, this can take a chunk of time, but in the end, you will be a much better player for doing so, and you will be able to figure many things out for yourself.

I had in mind writing about Undo but the post was already very long so I didn't include it. For me its hard to compare because as you said Undo is an ultimate. Additionally it directly shows you where the enemy moves to and it takes a bit of time for them to reach the position. It also takes you to the point where you were 4 seconds ago so its much harder to plan where to go.


About the rest: I basically already talked about the stuff you wrote there except for the magicka cost poisons (thanks for that input, I have to test it if its reliable in preventing stamblades from teleporting but I doubt it). From my experience stuff like trap beast or a single projectile are simply not enough to secure the kill against a competent NB player because they will teleport with enough health to survive it. The main problem stands that you can't apply additional pressure after the teleportation for quite some time.

Edit: I have 0 issues with normal kiting and roll-dodging. This is specifically about the ability of the Shadow Image teleportation to go through walls and ignore vertical distance.

I think everyone is missing the actual point. You feel you are entitled to “secure the kill against a competent NB player.” You are not. There are a lot of powerful escape mechanics in this game and I for one am glad for it. PvP would suck if death were a forgone conclusion the split second a bigger group, better player, better build, whatever, layed eyes on you.

So, what's your take on this? Should I just give up fighting competent NBs when objects are around because I will never get the kill anyway even though I could overpower them on an open field/without shade?

What's the solution then, calling other players and Xv1 him/her down? Seems pretty disappointing to met to be honest.

@HankTwo
Look at it this way. You have to assign multiple conditions for this to even work in the NBs favor at all: Shade is more complex to use than most abilities, he has to find adequate terrain advantages (towers, large rocks, ect), he has to have the snare removal to get away from you, he has to have the mit/healing to survive your damage long enough to gain LoS...

If a player is able to accomplish all that against an opponent, maybe he/she should have an advantage in the terrain of their choosing?

I could wrap my brain around reducing the range of the shade 1 or 2 meters, but pls let's not remove functionality from the ability. IMO this falls under the 'super fun and unique gameplay mechanic' umbrella.

I agree 100% that this skill is not a problem concerning 90-95% of the NBs around (just like block was never a problem concerning most players). It is not some skill that just magically makes you a better player when using it.

However, I still believe that when mastered and the conditions are met it's just too strong. You can't increase the effectiveness of other skills to such an extend by just learning when/how to use them. It can basically be something like ignore all additional incoming damage while doing no damage yourself for some time.

About the last part: Yeah I can see that. Maybe a new skill that would let you teleport a single time to an enemy when he/she uses a skill like shadow image/streak/frozen retreat could work?

This whole conversation is ridiculous. You say that Shade isn’t a problem with 90-95% of the NB’s you face but for 5-10%, it’s too strong and therefore needs nerfed lol?

The vast majority of players never utilized a perma-block build and still there was an overall agreement of the player base that it was harmful for the general gameplay experience.

I’m making an argument here that when used in an intelligent way Shadow Image becomes an uncounterable skill for other classes. Look, just because most NB players don’t use it that way doesn’t mean it can’t be abused.

Imagine a game with multiple classes that are somewhat balanced when you have low to moderately skilled players, but when looking at the top 5% of players only one class gets used because it is much stronger when used correctly. Would you call that good balance? When one class becomes uncounterable if played by a highly skilled player - even when used against any other class with a player of equal or better skill?

Sure, that’s not exactly the case for ESO but saying just because the majority of players doesn’t use it means it can’t be overperforming at all is just false.

Tryxus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Play mWarden...

But srsly, don't tell ZOS we still have a good skill vs Nightblades. They will nerf it

Yeah, I know... I'm not trying to say mWarden is by any means good vs NB.

They're practically target dummies for my bowblade, so easily kited when you can avoid all their attacks (I don't even run Shadow Image usually).

No undodgeable damage or cloak counters besides shalks (that no longer stun to enable other burst to land)... rip.

Heh And to think that in our first incarnation we were the perfect counter to StamBlades. How far have we fallen...

HankTwo wrote: »

Did you test if frozen gate now works while there is no direct line of sight or a large vertical distance to traverse? Sharee suggested that in the past it didn't.

The portal does require a clean line of sight. Vertical pulling is a bit finicky: sometimes I'm able to pull a player down from a high rock, and other times I'm not.

So that means it is not a reliable counter to Shadow Image teleportation after all, since most oft he time the shade will be placed behind an object/wall.

There are some issues with your logic. First, your creating imaginary scenarios to support your argument.

Second, you are imagining a scenario where the top 5% of the games PvPers use this skill so therefore it must be the reason for your inability to kill them. Surely it has nothing to do with their skill level or other common denominators we might find in their build or play style, if this were even the case.

Third, if you persist in chasing a NB using shade remember that every time he resets the fight for himself he does for you too. Then the fight boils down to timing burst. Here’s a tip, when solo, camp the shade. If he runs away you win. If he comes back blast him. Trap is beautiful for this.

Fourth, in another post you claim that every build and class should have another build and class that should be able to beat it, on even terrain, played by players of equal skill. If this is the case, maybe your build and class just isn’t the one.