Counters to Shadow Image teleportation?

HankTwo

I know that most NB mains will probably hate this thread because it is an interesting and fun to use skill. However, please be honest and think about if there are any real counters to it for other classes.

The general problem with this skill is that NBs can use it whenever they feel too pressured and seem to lose the fight so they can instantly reset it. Most of the time they use their shade to teleport to a position behind objects or to teleport to a much higher position. A prime example of this are the towers at resources. Imagine a 1v1 where the NB is on the losing end. The NB player could just jump off the tower and then teleport right back on it when you try to follow him. This basically let’s NBs reset fights at an incredible low cost with no real counter play. With enough objects around, it seems to me that you can’t kill a competent (stam) NB with most other classes in a 1v1 scenario.

So, let’s look at some possible counters and why they don’t work (well):
1) Pulls (DK chains, Silver Leash) and gap closers:
In 99% of the cases the NB will teleport to a position that is either much higher or behind a wall so this is pretty much useless
2) Trap skills (Trap beasts, Daedric Mines) and AOE snares (Caltrops, Eruption):
In case of stam NBs they will always have access to snare/root immunity. The damage of these skills will also most likely not be enough to secure a kill.
3) Delayed damage (Curse, Meteor) and DOTs:
In principal this could work, but since you can’t apply more pressure after the teleport, Vigor + Troll King will let them outheal it. In case of meteor they can just teleport right after they see it coming and then block it. DOTs on the other hand can be suppressed by cloaking after the teleportation.
4) Mobility skills (Expedition buffs, Streak, Sprint):
In most cases you will have to traverse a very large distance to the point where the NB teleported to. This means that you will have to use a much greater portion of your resources than the NB to get there ‘fast’ and still need much more time to reach the point.

The only class that I can think of that could maybe counter this would be a magSorc using delayed damage + mines. It would be nice if some of them could share their experience. For most other classes it seems like a hopeless fight.

Here are some possible solutions:
1) Make the Shadow Image work like an instant gap closer to your shade. This would mean that you can’t teleport to it when the shade is behind a wall or at a large vertical distance compared to your position. For compensation: if you can’t teleport to an existing shade place a new one instead and get the full magicka cost refunded.
2) Whenever a NB teleports to its shade, enable a single synergy for an enemy player so that he can teleport alongside the NB. Would be an interesting solution, but it must be a system that still prevents getting into enemy keeps with this.
3) Significantly increase the incoming damage and suppress the ability to cloak for a short amount of time after teleporting. This would allow DOT builds to maybe secure a kill.

So, what do you think. Are there any counter options I missed, or does this skill need some rebalancing?

Neloth

Omg...

If a competent NB wants to run away from you fighting 1vs1, he will, even with a previous patch version of the shade

So NBs were able to reset 1vs1 fights since, forever? Why create this thread now?

DDuke

Play mWarden, place Frozen Device on shade, profit

But yeah, it's an annoying skill to fight against imo

HankTwo

Neloth wrote: »

Omg...

If a competent NB wants to run away from you fighting 1vs1, he will, even with a previous patch version of the shade

So NBs were able to reset 1vs1 fights since, forever? Why create this thread now?

Shade was kinda bugged for a long time. Now it works reliably.

The problem I see here is that no other class can do that. Look at sorc Streak for example. If they start to spam it you can just use gap closers to continue the fight.

I created the thread because I couldn't find one that discussed this. Most of the time the ability of NBs to escape was about cloak but you can counter that with detect pots and AOEs on any class.

Edit: I also joined this forum just recently (even though I played the game for a long time now)

HankTwo

DDuke wrote: »

Play mWarden, place Frozen Device on shade, profit

But yeah, it's an annoying skill to fight against imo

I honestly didn't know of this skill so thanks for the input. Seems like wardens can counter it then. But what about other classes?

Rianai

Fight near the shade (if possible) or force the NB out of its teleport range. Don't let the NB dictate, where to fight. Only works if the NB actually wants to fight you though.

Koolio

Range still travels with the nightblade even when they teleport.

If a snipe is in the air and he teleports he can’t dodge it and it will travel through the walls to hit them. Same with any single target projectile from what I can tell

HankTwo

Rianai wrote: »

Fight near the shade (if possible) or force the NB out of its teleport range. Don't let the NB dictate, where to fight. Only works if the NB actually wants to fight you though.

The player that is on the defensive can always dictate the general direction (where both players move) of the fight. So what happens is that a NB tries to capture a resource for example. As a solo player you engage and a fight begins at the tower. Whenever the NB gets to something like 40% health he teleports and resets his health. Now if the NB would actually run away it would be fine. But often they reengage or try to capture the resource again and again. So what am I supposed to do? Camp at the resource long enough that the NB goes away or let him just capture it? Both options are bad gameplay design.

Feanor

Don't let the NB dictate, where to fight.

That’s a good one. It’s like telling the other runners to not let Usain Bolt sprint.

lazerlaz

I iust stay near the shade they summon when I see it.

Or I set myself in a position where I can anticipate them teleporting and get there right away.

Especially in a Xv1 situation, if I see multiple people attacking a magnb I'll just sit back and hangout at the shade, bring out the popcorn, and wait

Either they gonna kill em anyway or you stop their escape.

HankTwo

Koolio wrote: »

Range still travels with the nightblade even when they teleport.

If a snipe is in the air and he teleports he can’t dodge it and it will travel through the walls to hit them. Same with any single target projectile from what I can tell

If the NB player is competent he will teleport with enough health to survive a single projectile.

HankTwo

lazerlaz wrote: »

I iust stay near the shade they summon when I see it.

Or I set myself in a position where I can anticipate them teleporting and get there right away.

Especially in a Xv1 situation, if I see multiple people attacking a magnb I'll just sit back and hangout at the shade, bring out the popcorn, and wait

Either they gonna kill em anyway or you stop their escape.

Yeah, I also wait at the shade when other players fight the NB. Doesn't work in a 1v1 though.

JaZ2091

So in other words: Shadow Teleport is OP, please nerf, there is little to no counter play.

But really? Teleport with them? It's not a portal. Lmao. I guess I should ask for a Shadow Spell that mirrors and replicates a enemy so that all their spells get reflected back to them when they cast them at me.

HankTwo

JaZ2091 wrote: »

So in other words: Shadow Teleport is OP, please nerf, there is little to no counter play.

But really? Teleport with them? It's not a portal. Lmao. I guess I should ask for a Shadow Spell that mirrors and replicates a enemy so that all their spells get reflected back to them when they cast them at me.

You didn't really talk about the problem and offered no solutions here. Of course you don't have to like my suggestions but then please give another option. Otherwise how can I counter it as a solo player?

Neloth

HankTwo wrote: »

Shade was kinda bugged for a long time. Now it works reliably.

That's just untrue. Shade was a nice 1vs1 and even 1vsX tool for a very long time, it never went away from my bar since TG (or even IC, I don't remember now) up until they broke it not a long time ago, but now it's fixed and fine again.

Yes, when it used to require a target to be casted, it wasn't that easy to reliably place the shade when you've been chased by a horde angry zerglings, but that's all. Again, If you wanted to run away from 1vs1, you could do it for a very long time, just fear -> shade -> cloak. And in my opinion this patch it's even a bit harder with the presence of Sloads...

That's why I don't understand you complain to the current state of the shade at all, for 1vs1 fights almost nothing has changed.

HankTwo

Neloth wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Shade was kinda bugged for a long time. Now it works reliably.

That's just untrue. Shade was a nice 1vs1 and even 1vsX tool for a very long time, it never went away from my bar since TG (or even IC, I don't remember now) up until they broke it not a long time ago, but now it's fixed and fine again.

Yes, when it used to require a target to be casted, it wasn't that easy to reliably place the shade when you've been chased by a horde angry zerglings, but that's all. Again, If you wanted to run away from 1vs1, you could do it for a very long time, just fear -> shade -> cloak. And in my opinion this patch it's even a bit harder with the presence of Sloads...

That's why I don't understand you complain to the current state of the shade at all, for 1vs1 fights almost nothing has changed.

This thread is not so much about any recent changes but about the skill in general, what implications it has on player engagements and how to counter it.

See my post #8 for example. How should I when I solo react to such a gameplay tactic? If there are no real counters except Warden's Frozen Gate skill then maybe one should be implemented with access to the other classes.

Edit: Could you explain exactly how shade worked in the past compared to now (aside from the time in-between where it was broken)? I just wanna be sure that I remember it in the right way.

Maryal

I don't know if you are trolling or serious.

First of all, the new Psijic ultimate has a similar (not the 'same' ... just 'similar') functionality to the teleport shade ... meaning you 'teleport' back in time. Teleport is teleport. With it, you can jump off walls (and teleport back), you can play 'hide-and-seek', you can LOS, etc. Yes, it's an ultimate, whereas the shade is not, but that's not the point. The point is that any class has access to 'teleporting'. NBs have it as a skill because it's part of our defense. People seem to forget we have no class shields and no class purge, and a very lack-luster HOT (actually, all our HOTs are very lack luster, especially if your a stamblade). NBs primary defense is to kite, LOS, roll-dodge. You may not like that, you may find it exceedingly annoying, but that doesn't make it 'OP.'

You want to know how to counter? The skill costs magica - there are alchemical poisons that significantly increase the cost of magica abilities (and I do mean significantly). There is also lightweight beast trap - you can place it at the shadow's location while at range. You can place a fear trap on the shadow (no, it doesn't effect the shadow, but it will effect the NB who teleports there). You can camp the shadow in stealth. I forget who said it, but if you shoot an arrow (snipe) at the NB right before they teleport, the arrow will follow them. You can place a 'volcanic rune' at the location of the shade while at range (the rune lasts a fairly long time -- when an enemy enters the rune it knocks them into the air and stuns them). You know, there are many other measures that can be used, but I'm not going to list anymore. The best thing you could do for yourself is to spend some time learning more about the game and the game mechanics. (This includes learning the ins-and-outs of all the class skills, guild skills, world skills, weapon skills as well as the passives. Just reading about them isn't enough, but at least it's a start). Granted, this can take a chunk of time, but in the end, you will be a much better player for doing so, and you will be able to figure many things out for yourself.

Septimus_Magna

Yesterday I killed a NB with Curse, Mages Fury and Meteor after he teleported away but it was a lucky shot.

Its usually impossible to counter shade if the NB knows how to use it. There’s just little you can do about a teleport that ignores LoS and heights. And after the teleport the NB can simply Cloak to escape.

HankTwo

Maryal wrote: »

I don't know if you are trolling or serious.

First of all, the new Psijic ultimate has a similar (not the 'same' ... just 'similar') functionality to the teleport shade. You can jump off walls (and teleport back), you can play 'hide-and-seek', you can LOS, etc. Yes, it's an ultimate, whereas the shade is not, but that's not the point. The point is that any class has access to 'teleporting'. NBs have it as a skill because it's part of our defense. People seem to forget we have no class shields and no class purge, and a very lack-luster HOT (actually, all our HOTs are very lack luster, especially if your a stamblade). NBs primary defense is to kite, LOS, roll-dodge. You may not like that, you may find it exceedingly annoying, but that doesn't make it 'OP.'

You want to know how to counter? The skill costs magica - there are alchemical poisons that significantly increase the cost of magica abilities (and I do mean significantly). There is also lightweight beast trap - you can place it at the shadow's location while at range. You can place a fear trap on the shadow (no, it doesn't effect the shadow, but it will effect the NB who teleports there). You can camp the shadow in stealth. I forget who said it, but if you shoot an arrow (snipe) at the NB right before they teleport, the arrow will follow them. You can place a 'volcanic rune' at the location of the shade while at range (the rune lasts a fairly long time -- when an enemy enters the rune it knocks them into the air and stuns them). You know, there are other measures that can be used, but I'm not going to list anymore. The best thing you could do for yourself is to spend some time learning more about the game and the game mechanics. (This includes learning the ins-and-outs of all the class skills, guild skills, world skills, weapon skills as well as the passives. Just reading about them isn't enough, but at least it's a start). Granted, this can take a chunk of time, but in the end, you will be a much better player for doing so, and you will be able to figure many things out for yourself.

I had in mind writing about Undo but the post was already very long so I didn't include it. For me its hard to compare because as you said Undo is an ultimate. Additionally it directly shows you where the enemy moves to and it takes a bit of time for them to reach the position. It also takes you to the point where you were 4 seconds ago so its much harder to plan where to go.


About the rest: I basically already talked about the stuff you wrote there except for the magicka cost poisons (thanks for that input, I have to test it if its reliable in preventing stamblades from teleporting but I doubt it). From my experience stuff like trap beast or a single projectile are simply not enough to secure the kill against a competent NB player because they will teleport with enough health to survive it. The main problem stands that you can't apply additional pressure after the teleportation for quite some time.

Edit: I have 0 issues with normal kiting and roll-dodging. This is specifically about the ability of the Shadow Image teleportation to go through walls and ignore vertical distance.

Gilvoth

next patch the pets will have increased speeds, im thinking of making my shade the other morph to test and see if he can be usefull wielding his dagger, you guys going to try nerfing that as well?
why you guys constantly trying to nerf everything constantly?

Sharee

DDuke wrote: »

Play mWarden, place Frozen Device on shade, profit

But yeah, it's an annoying skill to fight against imo

From my experience, this is not possible. Unlike the shade, frozen device needs a direct line of sight between the ground placed effect and the warden for anyone to be teleported by it. So if a NB places shade and jumps out of tower, putting him out of the shade's LOS(by the tower ledge), you can not put teleport rune on the shade, jump after him, and expect him to be teleported to you after he returns to the shade.

It was the first thing i thought of when i saw the warden ability in the patch notes, and the first thing i tried once i unlocked it (so my testing is quite old - it is possible ZOS changed it in meantime).

HankTwo

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Yesterday I killed a NB with Curse, Mages Fury and Meteor after he teleported away but it was a lucky shot.

Its usually impossible to counter shade if the NB knows how to use it. There’s just little you can do about a teleport that ignores LoS and heights. And after the teleport the NB can simply Cloak to escape.

That's my experience as well. I was wondering if magsorcs could pull it off with delayed damage, but it looks like its very hard even then.

Koensol

Place rearming trap and tbag the shade.

Killset

HankTwo wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

I don't know if you are trolling or serious.

First of all, the new Psijic ultimate has a similar (not the 'same' ... just 'similar') functionality to the teleport shade. You can jump off walls (and teleport back), you can play 'hide-and-seek', you can LOS, etc. Yes, it's an ultimate, whereas the shade is not, but that's not the point. The point is that any class has access to 'teleporting'. NBs have it as a skill because it's part of our defense. People seem to forget we have no class shields and no class purge, and a very lack-luster HOT (actually, all our HOTs are very lack luster, especially if your a stamblade). NBs primary defense is to kite, LOS, roll-dodge. You may not like that, you may find it exceedingly annoying, but that doesn't make it 'OP.'

You want to know how to counter? The skill costs magica - there are alchemical poisons that significantly increase the cost of magica abilities (and I do mean significantly). There is also lightweight beast trap - you can place it at the shadow's location while at range. You can place a fear trap on the shadow (no, it doesn't effect the shadow, but it will effect the NB who teleports there). You can camp the shadow in stealth. I forget who said it, but if you shoot an arrow (snipe) at the NB right before they teleport, the arrow will follow them. You can place a 'volcanic rune' at the location of the shade while at range (the rune lasts a fairly long time -- when an enemy enters the rune it knocks them into the air and stuns them). You know, there are other measures that can be used, but I'm not going to list anymore. The best thing you could do for yourself is to spend some time learning more about the game and the game mechanics. (This includes learning the ins-and-outs of all the class skills, guild skills, world skills, weapon skills as well as the passives. Just reading about them isn't enough, but at least it's a start). Granted, this can take a chunk of time, but in the end, you will be a much better player for doing so, and you will be able to figure many things out for yourself.

I had in mind writing about Undo but the post was already very long so I didn't include it. For me its hard to compare because as you said Undo is an ultimate. Additionally it directly shows you where the enemy moves to and it takes a bit of time for them to reach the position. It also takes you to the point where you were 4 seconds ago so its much harder to plan where to go.


About the rest: I basically already talked about the stuff you wrote there except for the magicka cost poisons (thanks for that input, I have to test it if its reliable in preventing stamblades from teleporting but I doubt it). From my experience stuff like trap beast or a single projectile are simply not enough to secure the kill against a competent NB player because they will teleport with enough health to survive it. The main problem stands that you can't apply additional pressure after the teleportation for quite some time.

Edit: I have 0 issues with normal kiting and roll-dodging. This is specifically about the ability of the Shadow Image teleportation to go through walls and ignore vertical distance.

I think everyone is missing the actual point. You feel you are entitled to “secure the kill against a competent NB player.” You are not. There are a lot of powerful escape mechanics in this game and I for one am glad for it. PvP would suck if death were a forgone conclusion the split second a bigger group, better player, better build, whatever, layed eyes on you.

HankTwo

Killset wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

I don't know if you are trolling or serious.

First of all, the new Psijic ultimate has a similar (not the 'same' ... just 'similar') functionality to the teleport shade. You can jump off walls (and teleport back), you can play 'hide-and-seek', you can LOS, etc. Yes, it's an ultimate, whereas the shade is not, but that's not the point. The point is that any class has access to 'teleporting'. NBs have it as a skill because it's part of our defense. People seem to forget we have no class shields and no class purge, and a very lack-luster HOT (actually, all our HOTs are very lack luster, especially if your a stamblade). NBs primary defense is to kite, LOS, roll-dodge. You may not like that, you may find it exceedingly annoying, but that doesn't make it 'OP.'

You want to know how to counter? The skill costs magica - there are alchemical poisons that significantly increase the cost of magica abilities (and I do mean significantly). There is also lightweight beast trap - you can place it at the shadow's location while at range. You can place a fear trap on the shadow (no, it doesn't effect the shadow, but it will effect the NB who teleports there). You can camp the shadow in stealth. I forget who said it, but if you shoot an arrow (snipe) at the NB right before they teleport, the arrow will follow them. You can place a 'volcanic rune' at the location of the shade while at range (the rune lasts a fairly long time -- when an enemy enters the rune it knocks them into the air and stuns them). You know, there are other measures that can be used, but I'm not going to list anymore. The best thing you could do for yourself is to spend some time learning more about the game and the game mechanics. (This includes learning the ins-and-outs of all the class skills, guild skills, world skills, weapon skills as well as the passives. Just reading about them isn't enough, but at least it's a start). Granted, this can take a chunk of time, but in the end, you will be a much better player for doing so, and you will be able to figure many things out for yourself.

I had in mind writing about Undo but the post was already very long so I didn't include it. For me its hard to compare because as you said Undo is an ultimate. Additionally it directly shows you where the enemy moves to and it takes a bit of time for them to reach the position. It also takes you to the point where you were 4 seconds ago so its much harder to plan where to go.


About the rest: I basically already talked about the stuff you wrote there except for the magicka cost poisons (thanks for that input, I have to test it if its reliable in preventing stamblades from teleporting but I doubt it). From my experience stuff like trap beast or a single projectile are simply not enough to secure the kill against a competent NB player because they will teleport with enough health to survive it. The main problem stands that you can't apply additional pressure after the teleportation for quite some time.

Edit: I have 0 issues with normal kiting and roll-dodging. This is specifically about the ability of the Shadow Image teleportation to go through walls and ignore vertical distance.

I think everyone is missing the actual point. You feel you are entitled to “secure the kill against a competent NB player.” You are not. There are a lot of powerful escape mechanics in this game and I for one am glad for it. PvP would suck if death were a forgone conclusion the split second a bigger group, better player, better build, whatever, layed eyes on you.

So, what's your take on this? Should I just give up fighting competent NBs when objects are around because I will never get the kill anyway even though I could overpower them on an open field/without shade?

What's the solution then, calling other players and Xv1 him/her down? Seems pretty disappointing to met to be honest.

Undefwun

seriously... just wow....

just take all skills.. all armor and weapons and throw em out, give everyone exact same stats and slap box each other.. bet ppl will find something to cry about.

I find many skills annoying on other classes. (I mainly play magblade and stam sorc for reference). Can we get rid of those too please?

I'm sure whatever class you play has abilities I don't have... and that's the fun part of the game.

Didgerion

Any trap would work. Fighter guild one, or class ones if lucky.

If the NB jumps out the wall don't follow. His only intention is to teleport back, and if he's not teleporting back..then call it a GF and move on.

HankTwo

Undefwun wrote: »

seriously... just wow....

just take all skills.. all armor and weapons and throw em out, give everyone exact same stats and slap box each other.. bet ppl will find something to cry about.

I find many skills annoying on other classes. (I mainly play magblade and stam sorc for reference). Can we get rid of those too please?

I'm sure whatever class you play has abilities I don't have... and that's the fun part of the game.

Seriously you don't have to be so defensive about it, you know? I just wanna have a discussion here.

Just look at how other defense/escape mechanics have well working counter play (again: streak --> gap closer, cloak --> detect pots/AOEs and so on). So, what is the counter to NBs using Shadow Image teleportation to disengage a fight and heal up? If they teleport with a reasonable amount of health left (which competent NBs will do) then trap/mine skills or a single projectile following the NB through the walls won't do enough damage to kill the player.

Even the magsorc earlier which obviously uses a lot of delayed damage skills told me that it's usually a hopeless fight for him and only with a lucky shot he was able to kill such a NB player.

Sanctum74

The hardest skill to learn in this game is when to walk away. If a nb is going to keep using cloak and shade and will only engage when I walk away then they are not worth my time fighting or chasing down. I'll do a funny emote or lay down the bags and just walk away, that's my counter.

Ragnaroek93

If you would complain about the synergie of Cloak and frontloaded burst I would agree, but nerfing a defensive and utility skill? Nope.

Why are all classes allowed to force a draw when a "competent" player is playing them but Nbs aren't? Good luck killing anything running around rocks and trees when you are alone.

Sharee

Killset wrote: »

You feel you are entitled to “secure the kill against a competent NB player.” You are not.

Reminds me of what sorcerers were saying, right before bolt escape got slapped with a stacking cost increase...