Rune cage counterplay exists

The_Brosteen

Break free. Immovable skill or potions. Cc immunity. These are all counters to rune cage.


I see alot of people saying rune cage doesnt have counterplay but thats simply not true. In fact, it is the counterplay to permablocking. Remember when it was cool to be upset about "permablocking unkillable tanks" in pvp?
Now you might say the range is too far, which I think is fair. It does get a little ridiculous once you start throwing some passives in there. Getting stunned by someone 40 meters away might be a little silly.

But no counterplay? You'd have to argue the same for the other block dropping ccs in the game. And if those went away entirely then you people would just go back to being upset about those permablocking tanks. If unblockable ccs were dodgeable then everyone would probably complain that stamina classes or just major evasion in general are op.

My suggestion is to decrease the range of runecage by 5-10 meters. I believe that would be a fair nerf.
As for the "but rune cage+meteor combo has no counterplay" crowd, where have you been for the past few years? People have been able to do this with streak, fear, fossilize for a long time now. Just because rune cage is the new hotness currently doesn't mean that this problem is specific to that skill. Again it goes back to a more generic question of if whether or not unblockable ccs should be in the game.

TL;DR: these forums have short memory spans and emotional reasoning. No wonder zos has such a hard time trying to take feedback seriously.

[Edited title]

Aliyavana

Rune cage breakfree has a delay to it that is frustrating. Also similar issue with the delay exists for petrify and fear which should be fixed

Waffennacht

Many people have only been playing for like a year or so, they just don't know.

How could they with such limited experience?

TequilaFire

If only the counters worked reliably and there wasn't multiple sorcs spamming RC over and over.

brandonv516

Break free is buggy on console. Full stamina and you have to press it multiple times for it to work.

Immovable potions are an option but I'll use the same excuse as others who don't want to slot detect potions vs. NBs...

I agree with lowering the range but I also think it should be a 3s CC.

Valen_Byte

Range on Rune cage should be the same as the range on Petrify. That would bring it in line I think.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

I mostly agree. 5-10 meters is too short considering the rest of the tool kit, but I do think that removing the keep passives would be a good place to start because as you said, 40 meters is a touch absurd. That said, it makes no sense to force a range class into melee range to use one of their skills.

I have been doing some thinking on this and actually think there is an obvious range here. As far as I can tell every gap closer in this game is 22 meters. Not truly ranged, but certainly not melee. Seems like a reasonable spot for this type of skill, especially considering the rest of the sorc tool kit. It wouldnt be able to be spammed across the map, but it would require that a sorc be engaged with the target to line up their burst. Much the way that many classes use gap closers to help line up a melee burst.

The other glaring problem with this skill (and really every CC skill) is that Break Free/CC immunity is broken. Break Free is unreliable and the immunity does not always work. I think RC is especially problematic because the animation is a little wonky. I think its worth looking at for sure.

I just dont get the argument for CC duration being increased. You have 2 seconds at most to break out of a hard CC or you are toast, and that is optimistic. Whether it's 3 seconds or 30 seconds doesn't make any difference. If they wanted to nerf it down to 3-4 seconds, nothing is going to change IMO.

As to the damage, well it was nerfed. Seems to be an appropriate response for the moment, but I dont think they are done.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Aliyavana wrote: »

Rune cage breakfree has a delay to it that is frustrating

TequilaFire wrote: »

If only the counters worked reliably and there wasn't multiple sorcs spamming RC over and over.

brandonv516 wrote: »

Break free is buggy on console. Full stamina and you have to press it multiple times for it to work..

This was also a problem for fear. Instead of nerfing fear, I suggested fixing the CC so it could be broken more easily. Perhaps a projectile telegraph for rune prison? or a target status effect so you could get a warning that it is coming.

It sucks that LAG is part of what is making the ability so strong.

mikey_reach

Valen_Byte wrote: »

Range on Rune cage should be the same as the range on Petrify. That would bring it in line I think.

Cutting the range on rune cage little i can see that being fair, but not to the range of petrify since petrify is a dk skill(melee class) and rune cage is a sorc skill(ranged class). So yes cut down on the range of rune cage but at the same time it should have longer range over petrify. Also the skill is buggy those two things combined is how i can see it being balanced imo.

Valen_Byte

mikey_reach wrote: »

Valen_Byte wrote: »

Range on Rune cage should be the same as the range on Petrify. That would bring it in line I think.

Cutting the range on rune cage little i can see that being fair, but not to the range of petrify since petrify is a dk skill(melee class) and rune cage is a sorc skill(ranged class). So yes cut down on the range of rune cage but at the same time it should have longer range over petrify. Also the skill is buggy those two things combined is how i can see it being balanced imo.

I dont consider any class to be specific to 'ranged' or 'melee'. I have played a magdk since launch and I do not play it as a melee class at all.

Run cage, I consider to be a 'defensive' skill. A sorc can use rune cage as a defense when the opponent is too close, giving them time to streak away. This is how I think the skill was meant to be used.

Petrify, is an offensive skill because a MagDK has to take the opponents health down very slowly, while keeping them close enough to apply close range DoTs. This hard cc allows time for the DoT's to tick. Otherwise we just end up chasing you around a tree or rock for hours.

Sylosi

The_Brosteen wrote: »

TL;DR: these forums have short memory spans and emotional reasoning. No wonder zos has such a hard time trying to take feedback seriously.

The irony...

The_Brosteen wrote: »

As for the "but rune cage+meteor combo has no counterplay" crowd, where have you been for the past few years? People have been able to do this with streak, fear, fossilize for a long time now. Just because rune cage is the new hotness currently doesn't mean that this problem is specific to that skill. Again it goes back to a more generic question of if whether or not unblockable ccs should be in the game.

It's difficult to take threads seriously when players are so clueless they don't understand why on a class that can burst in the comfort of max range (and is mobile to boot), that can preload multiple skills, that then when you put a 41m unblockable , undodgeable stun on top of that it is significantly more broken, with less counterplay than say a mag DK being able to preload meteor into fossilise from short range then hitting with you with whatever after that.

Waffennacht wrote: »

Many people have only been playing for like a year or so, they just don't know.

How could they with such limited experience?

Many people have been playing since beta and have no clue despite their "experience".

This guy sums it up pretty accurately, go educate yourselves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CH5JI1ovjKM

generalmyrick

The_Brosteen wrote: »

Break free. Immovable skill or potions. Cc immunity. These are all counters to rune cage.


I see alot of people saying rune cage doesnt have counterplay but thats simply not true. In fact, it is the counterplay to permablocking. Remember when it was cool to be upset about "permablocking unkillable tanks" in pvp?
Now you might say the range is too far, which I think is fair. It does get a little ridiculous once you start throwing some passives in there. Getting stunned by someone 40 meters away might be a little silly.

But no counterplay? You'd have to argue the same for the other block dropping ccs in the game. And if those went away entirely then you people would just go back to being upset about those permablocking tanks. If unblockable ccs were dodgeable then everyone would probably complain that stamina classes or just major evasion in general are op.

My suggestion is to decrease the range of runecage by 5-10 meters. I believe that would be a fair nerf.
As for the "but rune cage+meteor combo has no counterplay" crowd, where have you been for the past few years? People have been able to do this with streak, fear, fossilize for a long time now. Just because rune cage is the new hotness currently doesn't mean that this problem is specific to that skill. Again it goes back to a more generic question of if whether or not unblockable ccs should be in the game.

TL;DR: these forums have short memory spans and emotional reasoning. No wonder zos has such a hard time trying to take feedback seriously.

i JUST used an immovable and i didn't break free.

is it delayed?

Koolio

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I mostly agree. 5-10 meters is too short considering the rest of the tool kit, but I do think that removing the keep passives would be a good place to start because as you said, 40 meters is a touch absurd. That said, it makes no sense to force a range class into melee range to use one of their skills.

I have been doing some thinking on this and actually think there is an obvious range here. As far as I can tell every gap closer in this game is 22 meters. Not truly ranged, but certainly not melee. Seems like a reasonable spot for this type of skill, especially considering the rest of the sorc tool kit. It wouldnt be able to be spammed across the map, but it would require that a sorc be engaged with the target to line up their burst. Much the way that many classes use gap closers to help line up a melee burst.

The other glaring problem with this skill (and really every CC skill) is that Break Free/CC immunity is broken. Break Free is unreliable and the immunity does not always work. I think RC is especially problematic because the animation is a little wonky. I think its worth looking at for sure.

I just dont get the argument for CC duration being increased. You have 2 seconds at most to break out of a hard CC or you are toast, and that is optimistic. Whether it's 3 seconds or 30 seconds doesn't make any difference. If they wanted to nerf it down to 3-4 seconds, nothing is going to change IMO.

As to the damage, well it was nerfed. Seems to be an appropriate response for the moment, but I dont think they are done.

You mean Ranged MNB having to run fear since Agony( almost the exact same move as tune cage) was changed to hurt the nightblade.

I suggest changing Rune Cage to a 40 meter self damaging heal for others lol.

The_Brosteen

Those who brought up the fact that breakfree and cc immunity can be buggy, especially in a laggy environment I agree. That is absolutely a problem that needs fixing. I hope this thread might shed more light on that issue. Although I'm certain that the devs are aware of it or at least they should bw.

brandonv516

Koolio wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I mostly agree. 5-10 meters is too short considering the rest of the tool kit, but I do think that removing the keep passives would be a good place to start because as you said, 40 meters is a touch absurd. That said, it makes no sense to force a range class into melee range to use one of their skills.

I have been doing some thinking on this and actually think there is an obvious range here. As far as I can tell every gap closer in this game is 22 meters. Not truly ranged, but certainly not melee. Seems like a reasonable spot for this type of skill, especially considering the rest of the sorc tool kit. It wouldnt be able to be spammed across the map, but it would require that a sorc be engaged with the target to line up their burst. Much the way that many classes use gap closers to help line up a melee burst.

The other glaring problem with this skill (and really every CC skill) is that Break Free/CC immunity is broken. Break Free is unreliable and the immunity does not always work. I think RC is especially problematic because the animation is a little wonky. I think its worth looking at for sure.

I just dont get the argument for CC duration being increased. You have 2 seconds at most to break out of a hard CC or you are toast, and that is optimistic. Whether it's 3 seconds or 30 seconds doesn't make any difference. If they wanted to nerf it down to 3-4 seconds, nothing is going to change IMO.

As to the damage, well it was nerfed. Seems to be an appropriate response for the moment, but I dont think they are done.

You mean Ranged MNB having to run fear since Agony( almost the exact same move as tune cage) was changed to hurt the nightblade.

I suggest changing Rune Cage to a 40 meter self damaging heal for others lol.

Yep.

Fossilize is short ranged because DK is melee.

Rune Cage is long ranged because Sorc is ranged.

Agony is now a ally-only heal because Nightblade is...who the hell knows what we are...

OneKhajiitCrimeWave

There is 2 issues with rune cage, both of which can't be blamed on the player base tbh.

1. That range: it's just too long. On a ranged damage class like a sorc where damage can be queued up, this range is equivalent to a giant putting a hand on the forehead of a dwarf and kicking them repeatedly.

If the range was about the same as gap closer range i think that it would be much more balanced overall. Defensive rune can remain unchanged because it is a defensive skill and activated by the enemy player so range is no ossue for that.

2. The buggy CC Break/CC Immunity: This one applies to many CC's but usually ones that have their own unique animation on the affected player (rune cage, petrify, fear) more than things with the basic stun animation.

This is something that needs to be addressed by ZOS because if i'm fighting i don't want a buggy CC break to decide it for or against me.

They did something with the fear animation a while back that did slightly improve the CC Break from it so maybe they need to do the same for rune cage.

Cenom

Just as people keep telling to use detection potions or innerlight to counter cloak, why not use immovable and mist form against rune cage? The plus side is that mist form has usability outside of this situation, where inner light and evil hunter doesn't.


Why the heck is everyone okay with this? Lol

Troneon

Aliyavana wrote: »

Rune cage breakfree has a delay to it that is frustrating. Also similar issue with the delay exists for petrify and fear which should be fixed

Also cc immunity has been buggy since forever.

Kel

Trying to break anything on a magicka class with limited stam to begin with is already a nightmare.
Hope you didn't have to sprint or dodge roll any attacks before you get hit with rune cage, or that's the end.
Break free is an answer for a stamina class, sure. How about other magicka classes?

Soleya

The_Brosteen wrote: »

Break free. Immovable skill or potions. Cc immunity. These are all counters to rune cage

Potions...good thing sorcs can only cast rune cage once every 45 seconds.

usmguy1234

TequilaFire wrote: »

If only the counters worked reliably and there wasn't multiple sorcs spamming RC over and over.

Same could be said for breaking cloak or fear for that matter.

DDuke

"Break Free", are you being serious right now?

The whole problem with Rune Cage is that the stun is delayed, i.e. when you cast the ability the stun happens at the same time when Crystal Frag/Curse/Meteor land on you.

You don't have time to "break free", you are dead.


And it also isn't just countering block, it's also countering dodge roll.

Yes, those builds that have the survivability of a sorc with no shields up and the health pool to match it.

Builds that rely on damage avoidance and certainly cannot tank Crystal Frags/Meteors to the face and take 4-5k crit damage from the Rune Cage itself.


Big difference to Fossilize/Fear is that those two skills are melee range. Don't want to get hit by them? Don't be in melee range when opponent is likely to cast them. Counterplay.

Fossilize also deals only half the damage of Rune Cage and Fear deals zero damage.

Kel

Soleya wrote: »

The_Brosteen wrote: »

Break free. Immovable skill or potions. Cc immunity. These are all counters to rune cage

Potions...good thing sorcs can only cast rune cage once every 45 seconds.

Too bad there's usually 10 to 15 sorcs in a group. I never see a lone sorc.

Cenom

DDuke wrote: »

"Break Free", are you being serious right now?

The whole problem with Rune Cage is that the stun is delayed, i.e. when you cast the ability the stun happens at the same time when Crystal Frag/Curse/Meteor land on you.

You don't have time to "break free", you are dead.


And it also isn't just countering block, it's also countering dodge roll.

Yes, those builds that have the survivability of a sorc with no shields up and the health pool to match it.

Builds that rely on damage avoidance and certainly cannot tank Crystal Frags/Meteors to the face and take 4-5k crit damage from the Rune Cage itself.


Big difference to Fossilize/Fear is that those two skills are melee range. Don't want to get hit by them? Don't be in melee range when opponent is likely to cast them. Counterplay.

Fossilize also deals only half the damage of Rune Cage and Fear deals zero damage.

So, as soon as you hear the meteor, pop a immovable.
Problem dealt with.

DDuke

Cenom wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

"Break Free", are you being serious right now?

The whole problem with Rune Cage is that the stun is delayed, i.e. when you cast the ability the stun happens at the same time when Crystal Frag/Curse/Meteor land on you.

You don't have time to "break free", you are dead.


And it also isn't just countering block, it's also countering dodge roll.

Yes, those builds that have the survivability of a sorc with no shields up and the health pool to match it.

Builds that rely on damage avoidance and certainly cannot tank Crystal Frags/Meteors to the face and take 4-5k crit damage from the Rune Cage itself.


Big difference to Fossilize/Fear is that those two skills are melee range. Don't want to get hit by them? Don't be in melee range when opponent is likely to cast them. Counterplay.

Fossilize also deals only half the damage of Rune Cage and Fear deals zero damage.

So, as soon as you hear the meteor, pop a immovable.
Problem dealt with.

Yeah, problem dealt with once every 45 seconds in an alternate universe where my bowblade doesn't already have to run weapon damage pots for Major Brutality.

And tbh Meteor isn't even necessary to global someone in medium gear (and no tank sets); it's more there to deal with tanks.

FloppyTouch

Wish dks fossilize was as good as sorcs.

Please dont compare rune cage to dks abilities sorcs have our skills buffed up

Micah_Bayer

Valen_Byte wrote: »

Range on Rune cage should be the same as the range on Petrify. That would bring it in line I think.

DKS are melee whith whip. Why should a ranged char have to get close to enemies?

TequilaFire

usmguy1234 wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

If only the counters worked reliably and there wasn't multiple sorcs spamming RC over and over.

Same could be said for breaking cloak or fear for that matter.

I have never been feared from the top of a keep.

GlorphNoldorin

The_Brosteen wrote: »

Those who brought up the fact that breakfree and cc immunity can be buggy, especially in a laggy environment I agree. That is absolutely a problem that needs fixing. I hope this thread might shed more light on that issue. Although I'm certain that the devs are aware of it or at least they should bw.

LOL
This has been reported for a very long time. If the dev's would do something about it this year it would be amazing lol but dont get your hopes up.
Immovable potions have been reported to have a delay before they work and I can confirm this...it is at least 1-2 sec before immunity activates for me.

Using the HA immovable skill is so costly does anyone actually use it in pvp?

10 sec of unreliable immovable potion (being not nearly long enough to dent shield stacking ) with cc immunity and break free that barely work is part of why there is so much concern about rune cage.

Soleya

jabrone77 wrote: »

Soleya wrote: »

The_Brosteen wrote: »

Break free. Immovable skill or potions. Cc immunity. These are all counters to rune cage

Potions...good thing sorcs can only cast rune cage once every 45 seconds.

Too bad there's usually 10 to 15 sorcs in a group. I never see a lone sorc.

Sarcasm....1 sorc can cast it multiple times in 45 seconds, can only use immovable potion once in 45 seconds.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Koolio wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I mostly agree. 5-10 meters is too short considering the rest of the tool kit, but I do think that removing the keep passives would be a good place to start because as you said, 40 meters is a touch absurd. That said, it makes no sense to force a range class into melee range to use one of their skills.

I have been doing some thinking on this and actually think there is an obvious range here. As far as I can tell every gap closer in this game is 22 meters. Not truly ranged, but certainly not melee. Seems like a reasonable spot for this type of skill, especially considering the rest of the sorc tool kit. It wouldnt be able to be spammed across the map, but it would require that a sorc be engaged with the target to line up their burst. Much the way that many classes use gap closers to help line up a melee burst.

The other glaring problem with this skill (and really every CC skill) is that Break Free/CC immunity is broken. Break Free is unreliable and the immunity does not always work. I think RC is especially problematic because the animation is a little wonky. I think its worth looking at for sure.

I just dont get the argument for CC duration being increased. You have 2 seconds at most to break out of a hard CC or you are toast, and that is optimistic. Whether it's 3 seconds or 30 seconds doesn't make any difference. If they wanted to nerf it down to 3-4 seconds, nothing is going to change IMO.

As to the damage, well it was nerfed. Seems to be an appropriate response for the moment, but I dont think they are done.

You mean Ranged MNB having to run fear since Agony( almost the exact same move as tune cage) was changed to hurt the nightblade.

I suggest changing Rune Cage to a 40 meter self damaging heal for others lol.

Not terribly constructive. Mageblade is an interesting class for sure. It really can be played at melee or range because you have skill options for both. It is better designed than sorc to dip in and out of melee range, and that's how most good mageblades I see play it.. You have a gap closer, a hard hitting short range ultimate, short range ST magic spammable, short range AOE magic Spammable, and a cloak to to escape from melee. The AOE fear works very well both offensively (good NBs fear before incap), or defensively, fear and cloak.

Sorc is a very different animal. They are designed across the board with range in mind. Other than mines essentially every offensive skill has a 28 meter range.

Valen_Byte wrote: »

mikey_reach wrote: »

Valen_Byte wrote: »

Range on Rune cage should be the same as the range on Petrify. That would bring it in line I think.

Cutting the range on rune cage little i can see that being fair, but not to the range of petrify since petrify is a dk skill(melee class) and rune cage is a sorc skill(ranged class). So yes cut down on the range of rune cage but at the same time it should have longer range over petrify. Also the skill is buggy those two things combined is how i can see it being balanced imo.

I dont consider any class to be specific to 'ranged' or 'melee'. I have played a magdk since launch and I do not play it as a melee class at all.

Run cage, I consider to be a 'defensive' skill. A sorc can use rune cage as a defense when the opponent is too close, giving them time to streak away. This is how I think the skill was meant to be used.

Petrify, is an offensive skill because a MagDK has to take the opponents health down very slowly, while keeping them close enough to apply close range DoTs. This hard cc allows time for the DoT's to tick. Otherwise we just end up chasing you around a tree or rock for hours.

You may not consider a class to be melee or ranged, but it doesnt take a rocket scientist to look at the skills of a class and figure out that the devs intended some classes to play one way and other classes to play another. Of course it is an ES title, and play the way you want is I believe and important concept for the devs, but some classes are just going to perform better in some roles than others. They have basically three ranged abilities and two of them function as gap closers. If that doesnt scream melee class, I dont know what does.

Also, you may consider rune cage to be defensive (i keep hearing that) but again, no objective evidence to support this. Since launch, sorcs in PVP have been about lining up range burst with a CC to get a kill. People did it with frags forever, then they did it with Destructive Reach, now they are doing it with RC. Also, they actually have a defensive stun in another skill. Its called Bolt Escape for a reason. I would go out on a limb and bet that the devs intended this to be used how it is being used. I am not saying that it isnt over-performing currently, but this notion of it only being for defense is just not supported.