Rune cage counterplay exists

Hurtfan

Immovable pots are common in Cyrodiil. In fact I should use them more often myself.

I still don't get all the crying about Rune Cage, even after the nerf.

Yes my main, and only toon is a magsorc, and there's plenty of instances where I couldn't root someone with rc because of immovable skill/potion...

Thestephenmcraeub17_ESO

Valen_Byte wrote: »

Range on Rune cage should be the same as the range on Petrify. That would bring it in line I think.

Or maybe petrify should have the same range as rune cage...

I kid, of course. That wouldn't even be useful to DKs who deal most damage in melee range. But by the same token, magsorcs typically work best at range, so I at least understand the idea behind the rune cage range. However, since it's long range, I believe that as a tradeoff (and given that the most comparable skill to RC is petrify in the game, which deals damage but is only castable at close range), RC should deal no damage. The infinte range hard CC is powerful enough and a worthy addition to any magsorc's toolkit. The added damage is overkill (sometimes literally) and should be removed as a balancing tradeoff with a skill like petrify

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Thestephenmcraeub17_ESO wrote: »

Valen_Byte wrote: »

Range on Rune cage should be the same as the range on Petrify. That would bring it in line I think.

Or maybe petrify should have the same range as rune cage...

I kid, of course. That wouldn't even be useful to DKs who deal most damage in melee range. But by the same token, magsorcs typically work best at range, so I at least understand the idea behind the rune cage range. However, since it's long range, I believe that as a tradeoff (and given that the most comparable skill to RC is petrify in the game, which deals damage but is only castable at close range), RC should deal no damage. The infinte range hard CC is powerful enough and a worthy addition to any magsorc's toolkit. The added damage is overkill (sometimes literally) and should be removed as a balancing tradeoff with a skill like petrify

Fossilize both damages and Immobilizes. Rune Cage has more range and does damage. Obviously the range is very helpful, but if just comparing a soft CC to a small amount of damage, I would take the soft CC any day, especially against a good opponent. Fossilize is an extremely powerful skill that fits well into the DK toolkit.

Tan9oSuccka

Aliyavana wrote: »

Rune cage breakfree has a delay to it that is frustrating. Also similar issue with the delay exists for petrify and fear which should be fixed

Exactly. Nothing wrong with a Sorcerer hard CC.

The break free part is pretty buggy/broken/delayed.

Thestephenmcraeub17_ESO

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Thestephenmcraeub17_ESO wrote: »

Valen_Byte wrote: »

Range on Rune cage should be the same as the range on Petrify. That would bring it in line I think.

Or maybe petrify should have the same range as rune cage...

I kid, of course. That wouldn't even be useful to DKs who deal most damage in melee range. But by the same token, magsorcs typically work best at range, so I at least understand the idea behind the rune cage range. However, since it's long range, I believe that as a tradeoff (and given that the most comparable skill to RC is petrify in the game, which deals damage but is only castable at close range), RC should deal no damage. The infinte range hard CC is powerful enough and a worthy addition to any magsorc's toolkit. The added damage is overkill (sometimes literally) and should be removed as a balancing tradeoff with a skill like petrify

Fossilize both damages and Immobilizes. Rune Cage has more range and does damage. Obviously the range is very helpful, but if just comparing a soft CC to a small amount of damage, I would take the soft CC any day, especially against a good opponent. Fossilize is an extremely powerful skill that fits well into the DK toolkit.

Right. I'm not saying that Fossilize is underperforming. In fact, I love fossilize and use it frequently in battlegrounds. My point is just that Rune Cage is an all-around better skill with no trade-off. Rune Cage has long range, unblockable hard CC, and damage.

Actually wait, I think I get where you're coming from. The immobilizing effect in Fossilize is the advantage that it has over Rune Cage, yes? Making up for the need to cast it at short range. If that is your argument, then I agree with you (for some reason, I thought Rune Cage had the same immobilizing effect of Fossilize, which after double-checking, I found it in fact does not). With that in mind, I suppose that's balanced enough. Sorcs with small stamina pools are basically empty when hit with a fossilize (as a dodge roll is needed to break the immobilize), and a good DK can capitalize on that, and that's a good enough counter to RC for me.

WaltherCarraway

Permablocking

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

OP you're just funny, much funnier than those wanabe-MLG pros

The_Brosteen

WaltherCarraway wrote: »

Permablocking

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

OP you're just funny, much funnier than those wanabe-MLG pros

I feel like you think I was complaining about permablocking when all I said was that people on the forums used to complain about permablocking. That wasnt a joke that actually happened, people did in fact used to and sometimes still do complain about permablocking builds.

Im not funny, you're funny

WaltherCarraway

The_Brosteen wrote: »

WaltherCarraway wrote: »

Permablocking

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

OP you're just funny, much funnier than those wanabe-MLG pros

I feel like you think I was complaining about permablocking when all I said was that people on the forums used to complain about permablocking. That wasnt a joke that actually happened, people did in fact used to and sometimes still do complain about permablocking builds.

Im not funny, you're funny

Oh no, how many permablocking tanks you can name? And tell me how many sorcs are using rune cage which is now too broken to un-CC & counter?

About the "permablocking" tank, Why you are unable to ignore them or bust them down with multiple allies? None of your allies carries bleed fear hard cc? You HAVE to use runecage to kill a tank?

Defending rune cage by addressing the skill as a counter to resolve "permablock", which has been nerfed at least 3 times with tons of other counterplays makes you funny. You don't even know how block cost have changed in latest patches.

And please don't talk about permablocking if your dk toon is no more than a crafter, Thank you. From your language I can conclude you have 0 idea abour blocking mechanics and dragonknight.

People think sorcs are op because there are always some folks like you talks about stuff that make no sense at all. Strawmanin those who don't agree with you in OP's TLDR makes you no more than a chill tryhard, LOL.

Joy_Division

The_Brosteen wrote: »

Break free. Immovable skill or potions. Cc immunity. These are all counters to rune cage.


I see alot of people saying rune cage doesnt have counterplay but thats simply not true. In fact, it is the counterplay to permablocking. Remember when it was cool to be upset about "permablocking unkillable tanks" in pvp?
Now you might say the range is too far, which I think is fair. It does get a little ridiculous once you start throwing some passives in there. Getting stunned by someone 40 meters away might be a little silly.

But no counterplay? You'd have to argue the same for the other block dropping ccs in the game. And if those went away entirely then you people would just go back to being upset about those permablocking tanks. If unblockable ccs were dodgeable then everyone would probably complain that stamina classes or just major evasion in general are op.

My suggestion is to decrease the range of runecage by 5-10 meters. I believe that would be a fair nerf.
As for the "but rune cage+meteor combo has no counterplay" crowd, where have you been for the past few years? People have been able to do this with streak, fear, fossilize for a long time now. Just because rune cage is the new hotness currently doesn't mean that this problem is specific to that skill. Again it goes back to a more generic question of if whether or not unblockable ccs should be in the game.

TL;DR: these forums have short memory spans and emotional reasoning. No wonder zos has such a hard time trying to take feedback seriously.

The past few years, I have been enjoying playing with and against sorcerers with a very good ability whose counter-play consisted more of drink this really expensive potion so you can "counter" Rune Cage 11 seconds out of 45. Also, I have been blocking their streak so not getting metered. NBs have to come within melee range to Fear me and they don;t have 2 accompanying delayed burst skills so I didn't mind too much those ones who tried. Fossilize is also skill with dubious mechanics, but at least it belongs to a class that cant just pew-pew 40+ meters away with delayed burst skills or an execute.

My memory is long and accurate and my criticisms toward Rune Cage have been rational, not emotional.

The_Brosteen

WaltherCarraway wrote: »

The_Brosteen wrote: »

WaltherCarraway wrote: »

Permablocking

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

OP you're just funny, much funnier than those wanabe-MLG pros

I feel like you think I was complaining about permablocking when all I said was that people on the forums used to complain about permablocking. That wasnt a joke that actually happened, people did in fact used to and sometimes still do complain about permablocking builds.

Im not funny, you're funny

Oh no, how many permablocking tanks you can name? And tell me how many sorcs are using rune cage which is now too broken to un-CC & counter?

About the "permablocking" tank, Why you are unable to ignore them or bust them down with multiple allies? None of your allies carries bleed fear hard cc? You HAVE to use runecage to kill a tank?

Defending rune cage by addressing "permablock" which has been nerfed at least 3 times with tons of other counterplays makes you funny. You don't even know how block cost have changed in latest patches.

And please don't talk about permablocking if your dk toon is no more than a crafter, Thank you. From your language I can conclude you have 0 idea abour blocking mechanics and dragonknight.

People think sorcs are op because there are always some folks like you talks about stuff that make no sense at all.

Ok. Learn how to read please.

The_Brosteen

Joy_Division wrote: »

The_Brosteen wrote: »

Break free. Immovable skill or potions. Cc immunity. These are all counters to rune cage.


I see alot of people saying rune cage doesnt have counterplay but thats simply not true. In fact, it is the counterplay to permablocking. Remember when it was cool to be upset about "permablocking unkillable tanks" in pvp?
Now you might say the range is too far, which I think is fair. It does get a little ridiculous once you start throwing some passives in there. Getting stunned by someone 40 meters away might be a little silly.

But no counterplay? You'd have to argue the same for the other block dropping ccs in the game. And if those went away entirely then you people would just go back to being upset about those permablocking tanks. If unblockable ccs were dodgeable then everyone would probably complain that stamina classes or just major evasion in general are op.

My suggestion is to decrease the range of runecage by 5-10 meters. I believe that would be a fair nerf.
As for the "but rune cage+meteor combo has no counterplay" crowd, where have you been for the past few years? People have been able to do this with streak, fear, fossilize for a long time now. Just because rune cage is the new hotness currently doesn't mean that this problem is specific to that skill. Again it goes back to a more generic question of if whether or not unblockable ccs should be in the game.

TL;DR: these forums have short memory spans and emotional reasoning. No wonder zos has such a hard time trying to take feedback seriously.

The past few years, I have been enjoying playing with and against sorcerers with a very good ability whose counter-play consisted more of drink this really expensive potion so you can "counter" Rune Cage 11 seconds out of 45. Also, I have been blocking their streak so not getting metered. NBs have to come within melee range to Fear me and they don;t have 2 accompanying delayed burst skills so I didn't mind too much those ones who tried. Fossilize is also skill with dubious mechanics, but at least it belongs to a class that cant just pew-pew 40+ meters away with delayed burst skills or an execute.

My memory is long and accurate and my criticisms toward Rune Cage have been rational, not emotional.

so you're problem with rune cage is with the range mostly. I believe thats a fair point, which I mentioned

WaltherCarraway

The_Brosteen wrote: »

WaltherCarraway wrote: »

The_Brosteen wrote: »

WaltherCarraway wrote: »

Permablocking

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

OP you're just funny, much funnier than those wanabe-MLG pros

I feel like you think I was complaining about permablocking when all I said was that people on the forums used to complain about permablocking. That wasnt a joke that actually happened, people did in fact used to and sometimes still do complain about permablocking builds.

Im not funny, you're funny

Oh no, how many permablocking tanks you can name? And tell me how many sorcs are using rune cage which is now too broken to un-CC & counter?

About the "permablocking" tank, Why you are unable to ignore them or bust them down with multiple allies? None of your allies carries bleed fear hard cc? You HAVE to use runecage to kill a tank?

Defending rune cage by addressing "permablock" which has been nerfed at least 3 times with tons of other counterplays makes you funny. You don't even know how block cost have changed in latest patches.

And please don't talk about permablocking if your dk toon is no more than a crafter, Thank you. From your language I can conclude you have 0 idea abour blocking mechanics and dragonknight.

People think sorcs are op because there are always some folks like you talks about stuff that make no sense at all.

Ok. Learn how to read please.

Oh. Learn how to post something that make sense please.

visionality

TequilaFire wrote: »

If only the counters worked reliably and there wasn't multiple sorcs spamming RC over and over.

The 3 seconds cc immunity prevents any "spamming" of the skill onto the same player. Not by one player, not by multiple players. A cc-immune person cannot be runecaged.

Cenom wrote: »

Just as people keep telling to use detection potions or innerlight to counter cloak, why not use immovable and mist form against rune cage?

Inner light works exactly like it should to counter cloak. Same about immovable and mistform against runecage. If you feel other skills are more important on your skillbar, dont complain about having no direct counter. You opted to not have it.

GlorphNoldorin wrote: »

10 sec of unreliable immovable potion (being not nearly long enough to dent shield stacking ) with cc immunity and break free that barely work is part of why there is so much concern about rune cage.

The concern about runecage is because sorcs actually started using it. You really think sorcs like the perma-stuns, snares and cc's they get any more? They are just very, very used to it and stopped whining years ago. (And admittedly its very gratifying to deal back some CC to the usual CC-spammers )

Ragnaroek93

Increased the Movement Speed of all Monsters summoned from your abilities and Item Sets by 25%.

Who cares about Runecage? Scamp ftw. Embrace the next duel meta.

The_Brosteen

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Increased the Movement Speed of all Monsters summoned from your abilities and Item Sets by 25%.

Who cares about Runecage? Scamp ftw. Embrace the next duel meta.

This guy knows haha

TequilaFire

visionality wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

If only the counters worked reliably and there wasn't multiple sorcs spamming RC over and over.

The 3 seconds cc immunity prevents any "spamming" of the skill onto the same player. Not by one player, not by multiple players. A cc-immune person cannot be runecaged.

BS, the immunity doesn't work stop trying to defend broken crap.
I actually play the game.

Enslaved

0/10. Troll thread.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Thestephenmcraeub17_ESO wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Thestephenmcraeub17_ESO wrote: »

Valen_Byte wrote: »

Range on Rune cage should be the same as the range on Petrify. That would bring it in line I think.

Or maybe petrify should have the same range as rune cage...

I kid, of course. That wouldn't even be useful to DKs who deal most damage in melee range. But by the same token, magsorcs typically work best at range, so I at least understand the idea behind the rune cage range. However, since it's long range, I believe that as a tradeoff (and given that the most comparable skill to RC is petrify in the game, which deals damage but is only castable at close range), RC should deal no damage. The infinte range hard CC is powerful enough and a worthy addition to any magsorc's toolkit. The added damage is overkill (sometimes literally) and should be removed as a balancing tradeoff with a skill like petrify

Fossilize both damages and Immobilizes. Rune Cage has more range and does damage. Obviously the range is very helpful, but if just comparing a soft CC to a small amount of damage, I would take the soft CC any day, especially against a good opponent. Fossilize is an extremely powerful skill that fits well into the DK toolkit.

Right. I'm not saying that Fossilize is underperforming. In fact, I love fossilize and use it frequently in battlegrounds. My point is just that Rune Cage is an all-around better skill with no trade-off. Rune Cage has long range, unblockable hard CC, and damage.

Actually wait, I think I get where you're coming from. The immobilizing effect in Fossilize is the advantage that it has over Rune Cage, yes? Making up for the need to cast it at short range. If that is your argument, then I agree with you (for some reason, I thought Rune Cage had the same immobilizing effect of Fossilize, which after double-checking, I found it in fact does not). With that in mind, I suppose that's balanced enough. Sorcs with small stamina pools are basically empty when hit with a fossilize (as a dodge roll is needed to break the immobilize), and a good DK can capitalize on that, and that's a good enough counter to RC for me.

@Thestephenmcraeub17_ESO
Yes, the second part is what I am getting at. If I get hit with rune cage, I need to CC break and eat a small amount of damage. If I get hit with fossilize, I need to CC break and roll dodge. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I dont think you eat damage with fossilize if you break free from it, but you do if you simply let it run its course. If you take the range out of the equation, Fossilize is a more punishing skill to be hit with, especially as a magic character with a smaller stam pool. No secret I mostly mag sorc (second most PVP playtime is mDK and third is sNB), and I would much rather be hit with a rune cage than a fossilize for two reasons. First, fossilize does more to my stam pool, and second, If I am that close to a DK, I might be in trouble. Haha.

Are the two skills perfectly balanced? Maybe maybe not. I fully concede that the range of RC needs looked at, but I firmly believe that making it melee range is not the answer. I think the gap closer range with no keep buffs makes alot of sense. #22meters

Valen_Byte

.

Thestephenmcraeub17_ESO wrote: »

Valen_Byte wrote: »

Range on Rune cage should be the same as the range on Petrify. That would bring it in line I think.

Or maybe petrify should have the same range as rune cage...

I kid, of course. That wouldn't even be useful to DKs who deal most damage in melee range. But by the same token, magsorcs typically work best at range, so I at least understand the idea behind the rune cage range. However, since it's long range, I believe that as a tradeoff (and given that the most comparable skill to RC is petrify in the game, which deals damage but is only castable at close range), RC should deal no damage. The infinte range hard CC is powerful enough and a worthy addition to any magsorc's toolkit. The added damage is overkill (sometimes literally) and should be removed as a balancing tradeoff with a skill like petrify

I actually dont even use petrify due to its crappy range. It is of no use to me considering how I play my MagDK. I do almost all of my damage at range. Its essentially the same skill with different animations. If you added the ability to preload petrify and increase the range by 20m! that would just be absurd but then I would be able to use it on my build. I am in no way saying that should happen, as a matter of fact it shouldn't. Just saying there are many ways to play all of the classes. We should not be fooled into thinking of any class as 'ranged' or 'melee' because that just isn't true.

Sharee

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

and I would much rather be hit with a rune cage than a fossilize for two reasons.

I would much rather be hit with fossilize, also for two reasons:

1, curse
2, fury

Neither will hit you at the exactly same time as the meteor that drops on your head if it is a fossilize that you are breaking free from.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Sharee wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

and I would much rather be hit with a rune cage than a fossilize for two reasons.

I would much rather be hit with fossilize, also for two reasons:

1, curse
2, fury

Neither will hit you at the exactly same time as the meteor that drops on your head if it is a fossilize that you are breaking free from.

Perhaps, but now we are getting away from comparing the skills to one another and instead to other sorc skills that have existed relatively unchanged since launch, and an ultimate available to everyone. Not like people dont get the fossilize, leap, whip combo with a series of dots already ticking. Also, if that sorc combo kills you in one go, you werent built very well. If you let a sorc do it more than once, well that means you let them build a second meteor, and probably didnt do a great job pressuring said sorc.

Dont get me wrong, its a strong combo, but lining it up perfectly is not trivial and can be done about once a minute. It shouldnt one shot a well built player. And end of the day, that's a sorc's bread and butter and has been forever. We line up ranged burst, and hope to catch someone.

I would trade the damage on rune cage for an immobilize any day of the week, and that is what we were comparing.

Amdar_Godkiller

Let's just give Rune Cage to the Mag Wardens. They need it more than Mag Sorcs, who already have a plethora of CC options.

Problem solved.

mikegundy

Valen_Byte wrote: »

Range on Rune cage should be the same as the range on Petrify. That would bring it in line I think.

No, magdk is primarily melee based so it makes sense for petrify to have a short range. Magsorc is all range so why would it make sense for rune cage to have a melee range to it. I agree something needs to be done to runecage but that is not the answer.

mr_wazzabi

The_Brosteen wrote: »

Break free. Immovable skill or potions. Cc immunity. These are all counters to rune cage.


I see alot of people saying rune cage doesnt have counterplay but thats simply not true. In fact, it is the counterplay to permablocking. Remember when it was cool to be upset about "permablocking unkillable tanks" in pvp?
Now you might say the range is too far, which I think is fair. It does get a little ridiculous once you start throwing some passives in there. Getting stunned by someone 40 meters away might be a little silly.

But no counterplay? You'd have to argue the same for the other block dropping ccs in the game. And if those went away entirely then you people would just go back to being upset about those permablocking tanks. If unblockable ccs were dodgeable then everyone would probably complain that stamina classes or just major evasion in general are op.

My suggestion is to decrease the range of runecage by 5-10 meters. I believe that would be a fair nerf.
As for the "but rune cage+meteor combo has no counterplay" crowd, where have you been for the past few years? People have been able to do this with streak, fear, fossilize for a long time now. Just because rune cage is the new hotness currently doesn't mean that this problem is specific to that skill. Again it goes back to a more generic question of if whether or not unblockable ccs should be in the game.

TL;DR: these forums have short memory spans and emotional reasoning. No wonder zos has such a hard time trying to take feedback seriously.

[Edited title]

You're dead by the time the break free animation goes off.

No counterplay.

Mr_Nobody

Rune cage needs its range decreased to a maximum of 15 meters or so, to propose the high reward-high risk gameplay, which currently does not exist and is pretty much a high reward-click a button one.

itscompton

The problem isn't range it's the duration. With break free and immunity being bugged on top of the inherently difficult position Magica characters are put in trying to manage stamina during extended encounters 5 seconds is way over the top for a hard CC.
Before the duration change my Templar with light 5/1/1 Fortified Brass/Spinners/Skoria and 1700 crit resist could absorb the RC/Meteor/Curse combo and be free in time to heal more often then not (but not always because well built skillful Sorcs would run me out of stamina and get me below 60% HP before starting the combo) but doubling the stun duration allows even mediocre Sorcs to pile so much more free damage on top of that combo it turns RC into an instant win button.
I firmly believe all Hard CC's should be three seconds max, if you can't get a kill against a helpless opponent in that amount of time you don't deserve the AP.

mojomood

I disagree that meaningful counterplay exists. Pots are max 25% uptime and that assumes you don't need a different pot for your build. Aside from the bugs already discussed that will most likely not be fixed, the range is the issue because the reward is too high for zero risk.

I play most classes in PvP, but really enjoy a MagBlade. Usually, I am running a fairly squishy, low stam build in order to get kill potential and magicka recovery. I enjoy one of the most powerful CCs in the game with fear, but I have to in melee range to use it. Because so many things break cloak, image is needed as well. This playstyle is high risk, high reward.

Mag sorc has built in mobility against CC that also stuns either offensively or defensive in streak. I would love to stun when teleporting back to my shade.

In addition to this and multiple delayed burst skills, sorcs have the ultimate stun in RC. The risk should be much higher to use this, same as fossilize. The sorc still has streak for escaping or shields for tanking, but that means there is risk to use RC. It will still be the best in BGs.

3 seconds is also reasonable because this forces other skills to be cast first (telegraphing to LoS or be RC'd) but ultimately RC is usually insta-death. This just means bad sorcs wont have time to get a few skills off due to lag/bugs.

Range nerf is far more important than stun nerf.

Blobsky

Hurtfan wrote: »

Immovable pots are common in Cyrodiil. In fact I should use them more often myself.

I still don't get all the crying about Rune Cage, even after the nerf.

Yes my main, and only toon is a magsorc, and there's plenty of instances where I couldn't root someone with rc because of immovable skill/potion...

Is this the "Just use Purge" guy lol

mojomood

visionality wrote: »

The concern about runecage is because sorcs actually started using it. You really think sorcs like the perma-stuns, snares and cc's they get any more? They are just very, very used to it and stopped whining years ago. (And admittedly its very gratifying to deal back some CC to the usual CC-spammers )

Permastun? Not possible with CC immunity.
Snares? Built in, class offensive and defensive skill named streak.

Every class should have a cc, but unblockable and undodgeable with no telegraph removes counterplay as there isn't a counter after skill is cast. Preemptively drinking a pot (that only gives 11 seconds) is not a counter. Rune cage was not always what it is now. The range needs to be lower than gap closers or needs a serious delay with an animation, like 3 seconds. Range nerf is better to encourage a risk/reward gameplay.

mojomood

mikegundy wrote: »

Valen_Byte wrote: »

Range on Rune cage should be the same as the range on Petrify. That would bring it in line I think.

No, magdk is primarily melee based so it makes sense for petrify to have a short range. Magsorc is all range so why would it make sense for rune cage to have a melee range to it. I agree something needs to be done to runecage but that is not the answer.

Then remove the unblockable/undodgeable and add a projectile to show its incoming...basically old frags.