Please, stop queuing for a random just to play Deathmatch, unless it's Deathmatch.

D0PAMINE

Honestly, im a bit ignorant when it comes to pvp and objectives. I put killing players first, however, if the group is vocal about working together, or sticks together, than I get a better idea of what im actually supposed to do, as I literally jumped into BG's without knowing anything, and I have noticed no one in a pug even says hello, or anything for that matter.

React

Stop avoiding PvP to increase your AP gain in objective bgs. No-cp rewards aggressive playstyles and damage builds, so play to the strength of those builds/playstyles and kill people.

Toc de Malsvi

The easiest teams to beat are those that try to avoid fighting entirely. You merely need a presence near a flag and they won't be able to flip it. Avoiding PVP in the name of the objectives is naive and shows ignorance to strategy.

The only way you win "objective" matches while avoiding fighting is if your opponents tunnel vision and never attempt to stop you. Stopping players from picking up flags or capping points is extremely easy when they aren't trying to fight you.

The third team capping flags ceases to be an issue with any remotely competent opposition. I have seen this play out time and time again, a team that is full of weak/stupid players avoids fighting trying to sneak cap flags, as soon as they get a lead the other two teams peel and cover flags, the team trying to sneak cap flags loses their lead and loses the BG.

Players shouldn't only focus on kills, but they should fight for objectives. Abandoning team mates to cap flags only results in a short lived lead.

brandonv516

Liam12548 wrote: »

Stop avoiding PvP to increase your AP gain in objective bgs. No-cp rewards aggressive playstyles and damage builds, so play to the strength of those builds/playstyles and kill people.

No. No-CP rewards the cancer play style that you run. And you make a terrible teammate for anything other than "grunt work" in DM.

Kel

Liam12548 wrote: »

Stop avoiding PvP to increase your AP gain in objective bgs. No-cp rewards aggressive playstyles and damage builds, so play to the strength of those builds/playstyles and kill people.

Who is saying avoid PvP? Did I not say fighting others is inevitable? Yes, yes I did.
The point is that in objective based matches, it's not the MAIN focus. You still get to fight others in chaos ball. But if you leave the ball carrier exposed to the other team to go chase after a kill, you are a bad teammate.
No ones saying killing isn't a part of it, but it is not a deathmatch.
That's the point.
Try actual reading the post. No one's advocating playing the objective without fighting. The point is stop ignoring objectives just to fight.
Capiche? Not complicated to understand.

Hanokihs

Just gotta say, I saw this cropping up a lot during the last couple of days. One guy in our pug tonight actually got 40+ kills in Domination, and I wonder how confused he/she was by only receiving 600ish points for the effort.

If you run past the flags (especially the white, unguarded ones) to duke it out in the melee in the middle of the map, you're just wasting your time. Take that skill and confidence to a capture point and mow down the mobs who dare to take you on. Same kills, better contribution.

Meanwhile, the other three of us just worked out that we could basically run in a circle and quick-tag every flag right behind the other two teams. Even if an enemy pair defended it, we outnumbered them long enough to snag it. We won, but it was the most boring battle in history. I'd rather lose by playing than win by loitering.

Thogard

Hanokihs wrote: »

Just gotta say, I saw this cropping up a lot during the last couple of days. One guy in our pug tonight actually got 40+ kills in Domination, and I wonder how confused he/she was by only receiving 600ish points for the effort.

If you run past the flags (especially the white, unguarded ones) to duke it out in the melee in the middle of the map, you're just wasting your time. Take that skill and confidence to a capture point and mow down the mobs who dare to take you on. Same kills, better contribution.

Meanwhile, the other three of us just worked out that we could basically run in a circle and quick-tag every flag right behind the other two teams. Even if an enemy pair defended it, we outnumbered them long enough to snag it. We won, but it was the most boring battle in history. I'd rather lose by playing than win by loitering.

Sounds to me like you got carried but are too unfamiliar with the game mode to realize it.

BNOC

Thogard wrote: »

Hanokihs wrote: »

Just gotta say, I saw this cropping up a lot during the last couple of days. One guy in our pug tonight actually got 40+ kills in Domination, and I wonder how confused he/she was by only receiving 600ish points for the effort.

If you run past the flags (especially the white, unguarded ones) to duke it out in the melee in the middle of the map, you're just wasting your time. Take that skill and confidence to a capture point and mow down the mobs who dare to take you on. Same kills, better contribution.

Meanwhile, the other three of us just worked out that we could basically run in a circle and quick-tag every flag right behind the other two teams. Even if an enemy pair defended it, we outnumbered them long enough to snag it. We won, but it was the most boring battle in history. I'd rather lose by playing than win by loitering.

Sounds to me like you got carried but are too unfamiliar with the game mode to realize it.

Yeah, sounds like he was wasting the enemies time, definitely not his own. All whilst leaving you to cap, basically uncontested. Sounds like he had a blast and probably didn't care about getting 600 points lol.

That's the difference between people in this thread, it's leaderboard chasing PvFlaggers vs PvPers.
He was the PvPer by the way.

Mureel

Jurand80 wrote: »

I que for the daily and play like a death match every time. If we don't finish 1st/2nd I que again. I couldn't care less about objectives. stick together team.

Except if the rest of your team is playing objective and you are derpmatching, YOU are the one not sticking together with your team. So yeah, practise what you preach, muh dude.

Hanokihs

Thogard wrote: »

Hanokihs wrote: »

Just gotta say, I saw this cropping up a lot during the last couple of days. One guy in our pug tonight actually got 40+ kills in Domination, and I wonder how confused he/she was by only receiving 600ish points for the effort.

If you run past the flags (especially the white, unguarded ones) to duke it out in the melee in the middle of the map, you're just wasting your time. Take that skill and confidence to a capture point and mow down the mobs who dare to take you on. Same kills, better contribution.

Meanwhile, the other three of us just worked out that we could basically run in a circle and quick-tag every flag right behind the other two teams. Even if an enemy pair defended it, we outnumbered them long enough to snag it. We won, but it was the most boring battle in history. I'd rather lose by playing than win by loitering.

Sounds to me like you got carried but are too unfamiliar with the game mode to realize it.

Lol if anyone got carried, the other person did; if the rest of us hadn't coordinated, it would've been a pointless game. It's literally "defend the flags you own and murder everyone defending the others." If the other teams' bloodthirsty players had been playing instead of scrapping, it'd have been a more interesting battle.

But nope. It was, "Hey, where's purple group?" - "Dunno. Wait, chasing those orange dudes. Away from the orange flag, apparently, let's snag it since they don't care." Over and over again. Then one guy would remember the actual game after noticing green's ahead and rush back by himself to get obliterated.

(ETA - or like in the match I mentioned above, the weaker/gimmicky players would be taggers/defenders dumb enough to stun-lock us on the capture points and flee without killing us. Like, wut? Thanks for the assist, I guess?)

In Deathmatch, the fight is the sport. In the rest, though, the sport is the sport. Lol Seems obvious that that's why those objectives exist in the first place.

Toc de Malsvi

Hanokihs wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Hanokihs wrote: »

Just gotta say, I saw this cropping up a lot during the last couple of days. One guy in our pug tonight actually got 40+ kills in Domination, and I wonder how confused he/she was by only receiving 600ish points for the effort.

If you run past the flags (especially the white, unguarded ones) to duke it out in the melee in the middle of the map, you're just wasting your time. Take that skill and confidence to a capture point and mow down the mobs who dare to take you on. Same kills, better contribution.

Meanwhile, the other three of us just worked out that we could basically run in a circle and quick-tag every flag right behind the other two teams. Even if an enemy pair defended it, we outnumbered them long enough to snag it. We won, but it was the most boring battle in history. I'd rather lose by playing than win by loitering.

Sounds to me like you got carried but are too unfamiliar with the game mode to realize it.

Lol if anyone got carried, the other person did; if the rest of us hadn't coordinated, it would've been a pointless game. It's literally "defend the flags you own and murder everyone defending the others." If the other teams' bloodthirsty players had been playing instead of scrapping, it'd have been a more interesting battle.

But nope. It was, "Hey, where's purple group?" - "Dunno. Wait, chasing those orange dudes. Away from the orange flag, apparently, let's snag it since they don't care." Over and over again. Then one guy would remember the actual game after noticing green's ahead and rush back by himself to get obliterated.

(ETA - or like in the match I mentioned above, the weaker/gimmicky players would be taggers/defenders dumb enough to stun-lock us on the capture points and flee without killing us. Like, wut? Thanks for the assist, I guess?)

In Deathmatch, the fight is the sport. In the rest, though, the sport is the sport. Lol Seems obvious that that's why those objectives exist in the first place.

I don't think you realize how much effort he saved you by killing so many players. Every time he kills those players they spend time in spawn and are unable to contest flags or fight you. The time spent fighting him is more time that they are either unable to contest flags or unable to efficiently move between flags. The time spent fighting him meant that team was using up resources and not capping flags.

All of these things helped you move around and capture the points. No one is claiming that you would not have won if you didn't capture points. They are pointing out that his fighting enabled you to have an extreme advantage in time and numbers when capturing points. Having a player or two that are able to occupy a larger number of players during an objective match gives you a statistical advantage towards those objectives. If the entire team avoids fighting, or if you do not occasionally assist or help your teammates that are fighting you will lose consistently, especially as your MMR increases.

Kel

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Hanokihs wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Hanokihs wrote: »

Just gotta say, I saw this cropping up a lot during the last couple of days. One guy in our pug tonight actually got 40+ kills in Domination, and I wonder how confused he/she was by only receiving 600ish points for the effort.

If you run past the flags (especially the white, unguarded ones) to duke it out in the melee in the middle of the map, you're just wasting your time. Take that skill and confidence to a capture point and mow down the mobs who dare to take you on. Same kills, better contribution.

Meanwhile, the other three of us just worked out that we could basically run in a circle and quick-tag every flag right behind the other two teams. Even if an enemy pair defended it, we outnumbered them long enough to snag it. We won, but it was the most boring battle in history. I'd rather lose by playing than win by loitering.

Sounds to me like you got carried but are too unfamiliar with the game mode to realize it.

Lol if anyone got carried, the other person did; if the rest of us hadn't coordinated, it would've been a pointless game. It's literally "defend the flags you own and murder everyone defending the others." If the other teams' bloodthirsty players had been playing instead of scrapping, it'd have been a more interesting battle.

But nope. It was, "Hey, where's purple group?" - "Dunno. Wait, chasing those orange dudes. Away from the orange flag, apparently, let's snag it since they don't care." Over and over again. Then one guy would remember the actual game after noticing green's ahead and rush back by himself to get obliterated.

(ETA - or like in the match I mentioned above, the weaker/gimmicky players would be taggers/defenders dumb enough to stun-lock us on the capture points and flee without killing us. Like, wut? Thanks for the assist, I guess?)

In Deathmatch, the fight is the sport. In the rest, though, the sport is the sport. Lol Seems obvious that that's why those objectives exist in the first place.

I don't think you realize how much effort he saved you by killing so many players. Every time he kills those players they spend time in spawn and are unable to contest flags or fight you. The time spent fighting him is more time that they are either unable to contest flags or unable to efficiently move between flags. The time spent fighting him meant that team was using up resources and not capping flags.

All of these things helped you move around and capture the points. No one is claiming that you would not have won if you didn't capture points. They are pointing out that his fighting enabled you to have an extreme advantage in time and numbers when capturing points. Having a player or two that are able to occupy a larger number of players during an objective match gives you a statistical advantage towards those objectives. If the entire team avoids fighting, or if you do not occasionally assist or help your teammates that are fighting you will lose consistently, especially as your MMR increases.

The point you're not mentioning is no one has advocated avoiding fighting, except the players who have brought it up. Show me where someone says they avoid fighting? Yeah, you can't. Because no one has...
It's a made up argument that really has no basis in this discussion. The only ones bringing up avoiding fighting are the ones that only want to fight and ignore objectives. You are basically arguing with no one on the point of avoiding.
I'll say it again, fighting is unavoidable. Never have I been in a battleground with zero fights. That still doesn't mean you don't follow objectives just to fight, or fight for fighting sake.
That's what deathmatch is for. Capture the flag is for....capturing the flag...*gasp*

Thogard

jabrone77 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Hanokihs wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Hanokihs wrote: »

Just gotta say, I saw this cropping up a lot during the last couple of days. One guy in our pug tonight actually got 40+ kills in Domination, and I wonder how confused he/she was by only receiving 600ish points for the effort.

If you run past the flags (especially the white, unguarded ones) to duke it out in the melee in the middle of the map, you're just wasting your time. Take that skill and confidence to a capture point and mow down the mobs who dare to take you on. Same kills, better contribution.

Meanwhile, the other three of us just worked out that we could basically run in a circle and quick-tag every flag right behind the other two teams. Even if an enemy pair defended it, we outnumbered them long enough to snag it. We won, but it was the most boring battle in history. I'd rather lose by playing than win by loitering.

Sounds to me like you got carried but are too unfamiliar with the game mode to realize it.

Lol if anyone got carried, the other person did; if the rest of us hadn't coordinated, it would've been a pointless game. It's literally "defend the flags you own and murder everyone defending the others." If the other teams' bloodthirsty players had been playing instead of scrapping, it'd have been a more interesting battle.

But nope. It was, "Hey, where's purple group?" - "Dunno. Wait, chasing those orange dudes. Away from the orange flag, apparently, let's snag it since they don't care." Over and over again. Then one guy would remember the actual game after noticing green's ahead and rush back by himself to get obliterated.

(ETA - or like in the match I mentioned above, the weaker/gimmicky players would be taggers/defenders dumb enough to stun-lock us on the capture points and flee without killing us. Like, wut? Thanks for the assist, I guess?)

In Deathmatch, the fight is the sport. In the rest, though, the sport is the sport. Lol Seems obvious that that's why those objectives exist in the first place.

I don't think you realize how much effort he saved you by killing so many players. Every time he kills those players they spend time in spawn and are unable to contest flags or fight you. The time spent fighting him is more time that they are either unable to contest flags or unable to efficiently move between flags. The time spent fighting him meant that team was using up resources and not capping flags.

All of these things helped you move around and capture the points. No one is claiming that you would not have won if you didn't capture points. They are pointing out that his fighting enabled you to have an extreme advantage in time and numbers when capturing points. Having a player or two that are able to occupy a larger number of players during an objective match gives you a statistical advantage towards those objectives. If the entire team avoids fighting, or if you do not occasionally assist or help your teammates that are fighting you will lose consistently, especially as your MMR increases.

The point you're not mentioning is no one has advocated avoiding fighting, except the players who have brought it up. Show me where someone says they avoid fighting? Yeah, you can't. Because no one has...
It's a made up argument that really has no basis in this discussion. The only ones bringing up avoiding fighting are the ones that only want to fight and ignore objectives. You are basically arguing with no one on the point of avoiding.
I'll say it again, fighting is unavoidable. Never have I been in a battleground with zero fights. That still doesn't mean you don't follow objectives just to fight, or fight for fighting sake.
That's what deathmatch is for. Capture the flag is for....capturing the flag...*gasp*

you need to play more BGs. there are quite a few nightblades that'll completely avoid fights and just back cap flags.

Hanokihs

The point is, like... Don't get so distracted by bloodlust that you abandon your team or leave them hanging.

• If you're in Chaosball, then your priority is the dude with the ball. If you're such an unstoppable powerhouse? Murder that guy to death and keep your teamies covered when they pick it up, or pick it up yourself - don't sod off to have a duel in the corner while everyone else is attempting to actually play the objective.
  
• If we're capturing relics and you feel like dominating the field, then use your leet git gud skillz to protect our relic, so it actually matters when we battle to bring another back to the base.
  
• When we're capturing flags? At least attempt to touch the blank/changing flag your teammate is standing on, in your haste to sprint past it on your way to bomb the giant battle. And if you're sprinting around by yourself, another of your teammates is likely by himself, probably getting wailed-on by enemy pairs of two, because they're playing the game correctly and you're not.

If it's not Deathmatch, and everyone else across teams has about <10 kills while you have 30+, perhaps your priorities are a smidge askew. J/s.

Kel

Thogard wrote: »

jabrone77 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Hanokihs wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Hanokihs wrote: »

Just gotta say, I saw this cropping up a lot during the last couple of days. One guy in our pug tonight actually got 40+ kills in Domination, and I wonder how confused he/she was by only receiving 600ish points for the effort.

If you run past the flags (especially the white, unguarded ones) to duke it out in the melee in the middle of the map, you're just wasting your time. Take that skill and confidence to a capture point and mow down the mobs who dare to take you on. Same kills, better contribution.

Meanwhile, the other three of us just worked out that we could basically run in a circle and quick-tag every flag right behind the other two teams. Even if an enemy pair defended it, we outnumbered them long enough to snag it. We won, but it was the most boring battle in history. I'd rather lose by playing than win by loitering.

Sounds to me like you got carried but are too unfamiliar with the game mode to realize it.

Lol if anyone got carried, the other person did; if the rest of us hadn't coordinated, it would've been a pointless game. It's literally "defend the flags you own and murder everyone defending the others." If the other teams' bloodthirsty players had been playing instead of scrapping, it'd have been a more interesting battle.

But nope. It was, "Hey, where's purple group?" - "Dunno. Wait, chasing those orange dudes. Away from the orange flag, apparently, let's snag it since they don't care." Over and over again. Then one guy would remember the actual game after noticing green's ahead and rush back by himself to get obliterated.

(ETA - or like in the match I mentioned above, the weaker/gimmicky players would be taggers/defenders dumb enough to stun-lock us on the capture points and flee without killing us. Like, wut? Thanks for the assist, I guess?)

In Deathmatch, the fight is the sport. In the rest, though, the sport is the sport. Lol Seems obvious that that's why those objectives exist in the first place.

I don't think you realize how much effort he saved you by killing so many players. Every time he kills those players they spend time in spawn and are unable to contest flags or fight you. The time spent fighting him is more time that they are either unable to contest flags or unable to efficiently move between flags. The time spent fighting him meant that team was using up resources and not capping flags.

All of these things helped you move around and capture the points. No one is claiming that you would not have won if you didn't capture points. They are pointing out that his fighting enabled you to have an extreme advantage in time and numbers when capturing points. Having a player or two that are able to occupy a larger number of players during an objective match gives you a statistical advantage towards those objectives. If the entire team avoids fighting, or if you do not occasionally assist or help your teammates that are fighting you will lose consistently, especially as your MMR increases.

The point you're not mentioning is no one has advocated avoiding fighting, except the players who have brought it up. Show me where someone says they avoid fighting? Yeah, you can't. Because no one has...
It's a made up argument that really has no basis in this discussion. The only ones bringing up avoiding fighting are the ones that only want to fight and ignore objectives. You are basically arguing with no one on the point of avoiding.
I'll say it again, fighting is unavoidable. Never have I been in a battleground with zero fights. That still doesn't mean you don't follow objectives just to fight, or fight for fighting sake.
That's what deathmatch is for. Capture the flag is for....capturing the flag...*gasp*

you need to play more BGs. there are quite a few nightblades that'll completely avoid fights and just back cap flags.

I play tons of battlegrounds and in my experience Nightblades are the worst when it comes to objective play.
They rather snipe spam or hit and run rather than back cap or get the ball. Can't use cloak with the ball and the damage pulls them out of cloak, so they avoid it like a plague.
Every time a nightblade is on my team I think "Alright, this player will back cap while we pressure the other flags"...but sadly, no. They don't. The good ones do, but most do not.
The ones who care about that k/d stat in any match are nightblades.

Thogard

jabrone77 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

jabrone77 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Hanokihs wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Hanokihs wrote: »

Just gotta say, I saw this cropping up a lot during the last couple of days. One guy in our pug tonight actually got 40+ kills in Domination, and I wonder how confused he/she was by only receiving 600ish points for the effort.

If you run past the flags (especially the white, unguarded ones) to duke it out in the melee in the middle of the map, you're just wasting your time. Take that skill and confidence to a capture point and mow down the mobs who dare to take you on. Same kills, better contribution.

Meanwhile, the other three of us just worked out that we could basically run in a circle and quick-tag every flag right behind the other two teams. Even if an enemy pair defended it, we outnumbered them long enough to snag it. We won, but it was the most boring battle in history. I'd rather lose by playing than win by loitering.

Sounds to me like you got carried but are too unfamiliar with the game mode to realize it.

Lol if anyone got carried, the other person did; if the rest of us hadn't coordinated, it would've been a pointless game. It's literally "defend the flags you own and murder everyone defending the others." If the other teams' bloodthirsty players had been playing instead of scrapping, it'd have been a more interesting battle.

But nope. It was, "Hey, where's purple group?" - "Dunno. Wait, chasing those orange dudes. Away from the orange flag, apparently, let's snag it since they don't care." Over and over again. Then one guy would remember the actual game after noticing green's ahead and rush back by himself to get obliterated.

(ETA - or like in the match I mentioned above, the weaker/gimmicky players would be taggers/defenders dumb enough to stun-lock us on the capture points and flee without killing us. Like, wut? Thanks for the assist, I guess?)

In Deathmatch, the fight is the sport. In the rest, though, the sport is the sport. Lol Seems obvious that that's why those objectives exist in the first place.

I don't think you realize how much effort he saved you by killing so many players. Every time he kills those players they spend time in spawn and are unable to contest flags or fight you. The time spent fighting him is more time that they are either unable to contest flags or unable to efficiently move between flags. The time spent fighting him meant that team was using up resources and not capping flags.

All of these things helped you move around and capture the points. No one is claiming that you would not have won if you didn't capture points. They are pointing out that his fighting enabled you to have an extreme advantage in time and numbers when capturing points. Having a player or two that are able to occupy a larger number of players during an objective match gives you a statistical advantage towards those objectives. If the entire team avoids fighting, or if you do not occasionally assist or help your teammates that are fighting you will lose consistently, especially as your MMR increases.

The point you're not mentioning is no one has advocated avoiding fighting, except the players who have brought it up. Show me where someone says they avoid fighting? Yeah, you can't. Because no one has...
It's a made up argument that really has no basis in this discussion. The only ones bringing up avoiding fighting are the ones that only want to fight and ignore objectives. You are basically arguing with no one on the point of avoiding.
I'll say it again, fighting is unavoidable. Never have I been in a battleground with zero fights. That still doesn't mean you don't follow objectives just to fight, or fight for fighting sake.
That's what deathmatch is for. Capture the flag is for....capturing the flag...*gasp*

you need to play more BGs. there are quite a few nightblades that'll completely avoid fights and just back cap flags.

I play tons of battlegrounds and in my experience Nightblades are the worst when it comes to objective play.
They rather snipe spam or hit and run rather than back cap or get the ball. Can't use cloak with the ball and the damage pulls them out of cloak, so they avoid it like a plague.
Every time a nightblade is on my team I think "Alright, this player will back cap while we pressure the other flags"...but sadly, no. They don't. The good ones do, but most do not.
The ones who care about that k/d stat in any match are nightblades.

Ha yeah that’s true too. Either way they’re the worst.

We should just ban nightblades from BGs. That would solve so many problems.

Minyassa

Why in the world would you expect teamwork from pugs anywhere, let alone in a type of play notorious for lack of teamwork itself? I feel for your frustration but seriously you are not going to find anyone in PvP pugs who cares about anyone else. I urge you to join a guild.

Valabrog

Minyassa wrote: »

Why in the world would you expect teamwork from pugs anywhere, let alone in a type of play notorious for lack of teamwork itself? I feel for your frustration but seriously you are not going to find anyone in PvP pugs who cares about anyone else. I urge you to join a guild.

On the other hand..there is no bigger shame than losing bg against pugs, if playing with premade..I had more victories when playing with pugs against pugs than being in premades

The_Brosteen

Hanokihs wrote: »

Just gotta say, I saw this cropping up a lot during the last couple of days. One guy in our pug tonight actually got 40+ kills in Domination, and I wonder how confused he/she was by only receiving 600ish points for the effort.

If you run past the flags (especially the white, unguarded ones) to duke it out in the melee in the middle of the map, you're just wasting your time. Take that skill and confidence to a capture point and mow down the mobs who dare to take you on. Same kills, better contribution.

Meanwhile, the other three of us just worked out that we could basically run in a circle and quick-tag every flag right behind the other two teams. Even if an enemy pair defended it, we outnumbered them long enough to snag it. We won, but it was the most boring battle in history. I'd rather lose by playing than win by loitering.

Sounds like this person did their best to allow freedom of maneuver for the rest of the team so they can capture the objectives.

What a hero. Getting little points and medals for the betterment of their team. Then a team memeber talks bad about them on the forums. God bless.