What are Dragonknights?

InBedWithMySelf

Zenimax, deep inside we all love you, and what ever we say is passionate, whether it does or does not appear to be so. Please take a moment to consider this:

A Dragonknight is: Consistency and tankyness by nature.

A Dragonknight is NOT: Mobity and burst and a reliability on executions.
The mentioned above are the deepest foundations that describe the Dragonknight class.
I could make this too long to read, and tell how to perfectly balance this, and every other class, but that's not the right place and time.
I will touch on the main things.

In PVE, I don't have much to say, it isn't too bad. Sometimes the short range of dragonknights for dps-ing cripples them. They're also good for PVE tanking, but that's not what I'm here to focus on.

I want to point out a couple of brief MAGICKA issues with this class in pvp environments, as Magicka is the side that truly suffers, you'll know it if you played it.

1. The class is incapable of healing. The one Direct heal it has, which theoretically is an excellent ability, cannot function since it interacts with the battle spirit healing debuff. It's a health based ability, therefore it will never heal enough until you seperate it from battle spirit. The coaglating morph does not serve the charecteristics of this class, and it doesn't heal for anything, but whatever, we have bigger problems.
2. Reflective scales: I don't want to complain too much about this one. People succumb to the illusion that the reflect is the reason this class suffers in pvp, but it's not. Still, if there was a reflect limit per person, I think it would be better, but lets focus on what really matters.
3. Ash cloud/cinderstorm: Earthen heart is a utility skill line, and yet this abilty, which is part of the dk's utility skill line serves no utility purposes. Change the healing to a major evasion for the caster while standing in it, and cause the ability to cast on top of the caster(not a targeted ability) and suddenly this ability serves it's purpose. Leave Eruption more or less as it is for pve DPS.

Those changes are the most major, fair and helpful to this class. I hope people find my opinions agreeable.

No disrespect meant to anyone, I appologize in advance.
Sincerely yours, InBedWithMySelf
Good day.

Still_Mind

Dragon Knights need their class identity back. Right now they feel very generic, and their class-defining mechanics don't stand out enough for the class to feel properly fleshed out, instead it plays like a clumsy melee fighter with some flashy visuals.

I feel that DKs need at least some of the following:

Unnerfed and expanded damage return mechanics. I really liked the Eye for an Eye mechanic for Retribution (I think) Paladins in WoW, which returned a portion of critical damage taken to the attacker. Reckoning-crits taken accumulate stacks that, upon reaching a certain count (say, 5), give a strong buff to your next attack, or activate a skill a la Grim Focus.

Get stronger by getting attacked/debuffed. DKs don't have a lot of ways of dealing with snares, defiles and other debuffs. Why not embrace them? Slap on a passive that increases healing, or decreases damage taken, or reduces costs of skills for each debuff present on the Dragon Knight.

Just a few thoughts that I feel will make DKs stand out.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Neat write up. Did you post it in this thread? https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/416455/class-rep-dragonknight-feedback-thread/p1

InBedWithMySelf

Thank you @Lightspeedflashb14_ESO yes I did post there, but I wanted a bigger stage than a post that already has over 200 replies. Also I appologize to everyone for any typing mistakes, I'm using a phone

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

And did you read the responses in this thread? https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/418184/class-reps-meeting-notes-june-7/p1 specifically these-

. Dragonknights
Coagulating Blood and passive problems. Coagulating Blood is a good heal, but it’s secondary effect of major fortitude is often redundant and doesn’t feel useful enough for the cost of the skill.
Some DK passives feel underwhelming like Elder Dragon and World in Ruin.
PvP players feel overly reliant on Sword & Board and Vampire archetypes. Would like a bit more mobility. Adding a short snare immunity (2 seconds) on Wings might make non-vampire option attractive.
Stamina Dragonknights don’t feel like Dragonknights. They were really strong prior in PvE because heavy attacks were strong, now that technique isn’t as good. Also there’s a feeling the stamina DKs don’t get much out of the class as some passives like World in ruin offer little value to them. Molten Armaments offers what they want but is the “wrong” buff.
Several concerns were brought up for Magicka DK:
Power Lash misses a lot
Burning Breath cone also misses target. Noxious breath (stam morph) good for PvP, not as much for PvE.
Sustain needs help
Not wanted for melee DPS
Key abilities like Flame Lash, Burning Breath and Burning embers feel clunky to use (different ranges, cone not hitting hit boxes, et al)

InBedWithMySelf

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO I did read some. The truth is it most of them suggest to change entire mechanics, which i don't agree with, it's too much to deal with for zenimax. The more focused our demands, the more likely we are to get them. And some say wrong things like what you quoted, where someone said that coaglating is a good heal. That could only be either, wrong, or a lie. Coaglating is a bad heal, it feels like It damages my own health... But again to answer your question I do read other people's opinions, It's just that I stick to the core points of view when posting my opinions.

satanio

InBedWithMySelf wrote: »

1. The class is incapable of healing.

Reapplying burning embers is not working anymore? And we have access to major mending on top of that.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

satanio wrote: »

InBedWithMySelf wrote: »

1. The class is incapable of healing.

Reapplying burning embers is not working anymore? And we have access to major mending on top of that.

This seems to be a pvper, based on all the "issues" they bring up. I regularly get 30k heals from burning embers in pve on my magdk. And I have no idea what he is talking about saying coag blood is a bad heal. I get 20k+ heals from it in pve on my mag dk again. Maybe the op is not aware that coag blood is based on mag now and is trying to use the skill on a stamdk.

To the op, Ash cloud was made for dk healers. I do think that besides the heal, it ought to give minor evasion, for your team sitting in it.

Also, thank you for taking the time to respond to my previous two responses. I feel that zos is making the right moves by making those sorts of discussion channels open and I wanted to make sure you were aware of them.

Checkmath

As much as i know dragonknights have access to another two powerful heals. One is the power lash proc. I know it is difficult to land, since people often dodge after getting rooted. Knowing that or using powerlash after a stun provides a really strong heal. The second one is the stone fist morph obsidian shard. I myself play with the other morph as my main stun ability and as secondary burst skill, afterwards i can continue with flame lash/powerlash. Anyway obsidian shard is a really powerful heal ability, some people even compare its potency with the one of breath of life. Right its is a but trickier to use, since an enemy is required, still the heal is very strong. Therefore dragonknights have a lot of class healing skills: burning amber, powerlash, obsidian shard, coagulating blood, the healing morph of ash cloud and even some kind of hot with the cauterize skill.

InBedWithMySelf

@Checkmath I'm under the impression that your opinions come from either a pve, or a 1v1 dueling perspective. As mentioned before, I don't want to go into detail. Try to run around in cyrodiil, or even battlegrounds, and you will understand. Then for the sake of comparisson, play any of the other classes in the same situations. I assure you, you'll feel like something isn't quite functional with the healing. I'll be happy to go into detail in a private discussion, I just want to keep the thread light on information.

InBedWithMySelf

What I said goes for everyone by the way, I'll happily do my best to explain my statements in detail. I did very little to back them up, intentionally. Feel free to contact me, even in game if you want, I'm in the EU PC server, and my ID is the one you can see.

Checkmath

I did not talk about pve at all and mostly play in a group versus group or solo versus several situation. And i have really less issues to heal up on a dk than on other classes (on stamina classes i have the least problem healing up on stam dk and with magicka classes i only heal better with the templar). Magicka dragonknight is a class i played a lot if hours in pvp, second to my templar and i can assure you, that you dont even need more than two of those listed skills to heal up sufficiently.

Xvorg

Checkmath wrote: »

As much as i know dragonknights have access to another two powerful heals. One is the power lash proc. I know it is difficult to land, since people often dodge after getting rooted. Knowing that or using powerlash after a stun provides a really strong heal. The second one is the stone fist morph obsidian shard. I myself play with the other morph as my main stun ability and as secondary burst skill, afterwards i can continue with flame lash/powerlash. Anyway obsidian shard is a really powerful heal ability, some people even compare its potency with the one of breath of life. Right its is a but trickier to use, since an enemy is required, still the heal is very strong. Therefore dragonknights have a lot of class healing skills: burning amber, powerlash, obsidian shard, coagulating blood, the healing morph of ash cloud and even some kind of hot with the cauterize skill.

The problem of Shard, lash, and embers is that none of them are heals on demand, so you can't use them unless there's and objective around. That render them useless in cases like ganks or figthing perma rollers. Adding that to the mobility problems, DKs can't disengage, heal and reengage. At least magplars are able to heal throug the attack, while cleansing.

I haven't tested the cinderstorm morph, maybe it could be useful, but Cauterize with its 28 mts range has become a coin toss

InBedWithMySelf

That's a smart way of putting it @Xvorg
That's the truth, the only theoretical heal on demand we have is coaglating, which just doesn't work. Surprisingly some people do say it works, which probably comes from a tanky, healing magicka dk point of view.
I wish I could say: "Well, at least I've got greendragon's blood". No I dont. It gets cut in half by battle spirit. I wish I could use that morph, that ability by itself is one of the few that directly describes dragonknights, it's a beauty... In theory. In practice it doesn't work. If it did, the amount of magicka pvp dk complaints would go down so much, people might not still be aware of it, and that's only one teeny tiny change.

ak_pvp

I mean, I agree on the identity point, but not so much the rest of it.

DK was heavily based around tanking but the current meta is a discount NB. Tanking was nerfed heavily and wardens outdo it a lot. However a DKs healing is really good still. Not quite a temp/warden, but still decent.

• Coag is useful, not sure why you insist on using GDB. The only time when coag is bad is when defiled. (Which is a meta issue) it then becomes too costly for its return.
• Cauterize is amazing solo as a long lasting hot/burst mix. And is probably the best buff the class has had in a while. (Still sucks as a group heal)
• Embers is good 1v1/2, but suffers a little with its clunkiness (moving cancels it completely) and whips heal is OK too I suppose.

Ash cloud/shattering rocks and obsidian shard (Despite its large heal, its too clunky to use and nonsensical) all suck pretty hard. Agree on the need for evasion, stand your ground sucks hard. But wings definitely needs a MASSIVE buff. Its borderline useless nowadays in openworld. Doesn't reflect nearly enough, both in its limit, and things that ignore it, for its cost, secondary effects are kinda weak, and status effects still go through it.

The pressure side of a MagDK is a bit low, especially compared to the stamina style dot builds. So most go for a mixup of a few dots and a simplish burst combo with FOO/leap/whip. Light armour DK has really high damage, but heavy was nerfed repetitively.

NBrookus

Healing on mDK is good, but you MUST engage fully to get it. And that's where it gets weak, because "stand your ground" is a death sentence in this meta of defiles, oblivion damage, stun locks and broken CC breaks. And people dodging your power lash.

The only DK heal I have a beef with is Cauterize, and then only because you are likely not to get your own heal. Cauterize ticks on a clock and if you miss your heal you are SOL for 5 seconds. I liked running Cauterize thematically, but it just wasn't reliable enough to stay in my bar.

InBedWithMySelf

@NBrookus True, you must invest fully into it to get it. And by doing so, you also sacrifice your damage in the process, which also requires a lot to invest in. It works vise versa. Invest a lot to get the needed damage, but lose the healing, and then the opposite.

Would be nice for the green dragon's blood morph to not interact with battle spirit though, only then will it work as intended, and the no "heal on demand" issue will be pretty much solved, unless you're hammered by heavy healing debuffs.

Ragnaroek93

The biggest problem with mag Dk is that the class is slow paced and slow paced builds are currently in a bad spot in open world PvP.

NBrookus

No I meant fully engage in the fight and actively manage your healing. You can't run around the corner and pop a heal and reset the fight on DK, but you don't need to sacrifice damage.

CDB is certainly no one button insta-heal, but since it scales with max magicka and spell damage it works better on non-tanky builds. The heal from BE is very good and heals you more if you do more damage. And if you are fighting 3 people and tag all 3 with BE, you can get the heal from all of them. The Power Lash heal is no joke either (provided you can land it), and keeping Major Mending up is very doable.

I'm in 100% agreement with you about the identity issues; DK is outdated and needs a rework.

But:

1. The class is incapable of healing.

Isn't true. Some of the mechanics, like BE stacking, are things I didn't discover for a long time and they are game changing once you understand how they can be juggled to provide a steady source of incoming heals while in combat.



P.S. Drop GDB. If you are a magDK you want Coagulating.

exeeter702

NBrookus wrote: »

The only DK heal I have a beef with is Cauterize, and then only because you are likely not to get your own heal. Cauterize ticks on a clock and if you miss your heal you are SOL for 5 seconds. I liked running Cauterize thematically, but it just wasn't reliable enough to stay in my bar.

False in that caurterize is bound to a timer. When you want the burst, you activate the skill and the heal fires instantly, foolish DK healers and mag dk DDs will wait for the interval ticks. When fully set up to actually be a healer in pvp, cauterize has a very impressive tool tip coming out only slightly below BOL . The smart healing issue of having an ally "steal" the heal pertains to many heal spells in the game. But cauterize is first and foremost a dk healers tool and its active cast is very quick since its recent buff to trajectory speed. You never wait for its intervals when you need the heal. You simply cast the skill. The lingering interval ticks are for cushion / spot healing ie triage if you will (dont want to confuse anyone) which plays well into its relatively cheap cost vs other heals in the game that heal for similar values and arent even 360 degrees. As well as situationally providing cauterize's benefits without having to stay commited to the bar its slotted on.

Savos_Saren

I don't necessarily agree with your opinion on this.

1. Heavy armor "tanky" players shouldn't have mobility and burst. They should be the "stand your ground" types. They should be hard as hell to kill, have strong lockdowns for group support, and do very little burst (albeit, they could do decent damage over time). The "kills" that they do should pretty much come from assist-kills.

2. Not allowing mobility and executes would only apply to magicka-based DKs... since stamina-based DKs get mobility AND executes from weapon skill lines (ie: quick cloak, whirlwind, and reverse slice). You're effectively crippling only the magicka-based side of the class by your original post.

3. The game has evolved beyond the original arch-types of the class. DKs aren't just tanks. Templars aren't just healers. Nightblades and Sorcs aren't just DPS. Yes... they excel at certain areas- but they're not solely limited to such roles. Especially since the introduction of the Warden class. The Warden is a good example of tank, healer, and dps roles- divided by it's respective skill lines. (You can pick and choose from each skill line... but you definitely know what each skill provides)

4. ZOS really needs to reevaluate the DK's passives. Seriously. Considering that we have skills that get ZERO BENEFIT from their own passive skills (I'm looking at you, Cauterize) in their own skill line... you can tell that something is inherently flawed.

It's just my two cents worth- but hopefully you can see my point.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

@Savos_Saren re your number 4-

Cauterize (Inferno morph): Increased the speed of the projectile from this morph by approximately 50%, and the projectile can now target the casting Dragonknight.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4585501/#Comment_4585501

Savos_Saren

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Savos_Saren re your number 4-

Cauterize (Inferno morph): Increased the speed of the projectile from this morph by approximately 50%, and the projectile can now target the casting Dragonknight.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4585501/#Comment_4585501

I'm not sure I'm tracking with you, @Lightspeedflashb14_ESO . Which of the passives in its skill line (Combustion, Warmth, Searing Heat, or World in Ruin) does it benefit from?

LegendaryMage

Here, read this:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/364862/dragonknights-and-the-thuum

NBrookus

exeeter702 wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

The only DK heal I have a beef with is Cauterize, and then only because you are likely not to get your own heal. Cauterize ticks on a clock and if you miss your heal you are SOL for 5 seconds. I liked running Cauterize thematically, but it just wasn't reliable enough to stay in my bar.

False in that caurterize is bound to a timer. When you want the burst, you activate the skill and the heal fires instantly, foolish DK healers and mag dk DDs will wait for the interval ticks. When fully set up to actually be a healer in pvp, cauterize has a very impressive tool tip coming out only slightly below BOL . The smart healing issue of having an ally "steal" the heal pertains to many heal spells in the game. But cauterize is first and foremost a dk healers tool and its active cast is very quick since its recent buff to trajectory speed. You never wait for its intervals when you need the heal. You simply cast the skill. The lingering interval ticks are for cushion / spot healing ie triage if you will (dont want to confuse anyone) which plays well into its relatively cheap cost vs other heals in the game that heal for similar values and arent even 360 degrees. As well as situationally providing cauterize's benefits without having to stay commited to the bar its slotted on.

Hmmm, I tried that. Never got healed.

And while it's intended for healers, when you are getting focused by 2-3 people with Sloads any healing you can scrape up is important. So far, increasing my spell damage has been the most successful strategy.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Savos_Saren re your number 4-

Cauterize (Inferno morph): Increased the speed of the projectile from this morph by approximately 50%, and the projectile can now target the casting Dragonknight.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4585501/#Comment_4585501

I'm not sure I'm tracking with you, @Lightspeedflashb14_ESO . Which of the passives in its skill line (Combustion, Warmth, Searing Heat, or World in Ruin) does it benefit from?

I see. You meant literally passives. I was pointing out you get healed by the skill now, wasn't always the case. To the point you made, all classes have passives that don't apply to all skills in the particular skill line that are in. It is par for the course, so I am not sure what makes you bring it up.

Savos_Saren

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Savos_Saren re your number 4-

Cauterize (Inferno morph): Increased the speed of the projectile from this morph by approximately 50%, and the projectile can now target the casting Dragonknight.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4585501/#Comment_4585501

I'm not sure I'm tracking with you, @Lightspeedflashb14_ESO . Which of the passives in its skill line (Combustion, Warmth, Searing Heat, or World in Ruin) does it benefit from?

I see. You meant literally passives. I was pointing out you get healed by the skill now, wasn't always the case. To the point you made, all classes have passives that don't apply to all skills in the particular skill line that are in. It is par for the course, so I am not sure what makes you bring it up.

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

I guess it reiterates my point. Our passives (even for other classes) are out of date. They all need to be reevaluated. Though I may "main" a DK- I have two (even three) of every class: stamina based and magic based. I do think that ZOS should modernize all of our passives.

Vahrokh

Still_Mind wrote: »

Dragon Knights need their class identity back. Right now they feel very generic, and their class-defining mechanics don't stand out enough for the class to feel properly fleshed out, instead it plays like a clumsy melee fighter with some flashy visuals.

I am saying this since 1 year. ZOS has "streamlined" classes to the point that you can log in your magsorc believing it's your magblade and don't even feel a difference for a while!

They annihilated class signatures, made it compulsory to use general common skills (crushing shock, harness magicka...) because they made class skills so inane and weak.

ZOS, make our classes great again!

ak_pvp

Savos_Saren wrote: »

I don't necessarily agree with your opinion on this.

1. Heavy armor "tanky" players shouldn't have mobility and burst. They should be the "stand your ground" types. They should be hard as hell to kill, have strong lockdowns for group support, and do very little burst (albeit, they could do decent damage over time). The "kills" that they do should pretty much come from assist-kills.

It's just my two cents worth- but hopefully you can see my point.

Couldn't disagree more. Tankiness in ESO isn't instantly being unkillable but the damage equivalent of a potato like in other games. Just like running a bursty sorc/NB doesn't mean you lack any defense. In fact cloak is No1 in mitigation and NBs overall have the best defense through kiting, disappearing and rolling/shielding.

InBedWithMySelf

Savos_Saren wrote: »

I don't necessarily agree with your opinion on this.

2. Not allowing mobility and executes would only apply to magicka-based DKs... since stamina-based DKs get mobility AND executes from weapon skill lines (ie: quick cloak, whirlwind, and reverse slice). You're effectively crippling only the magicka-based side of the class by your original post.

The way the magicka version of dragonknights , whether intended or not, is not designed to rely on executes(as I mentioned in at the begining of my thread, "consistency"). Stamina works completely differently to magicka. Stamina dragonknights have no stamina whip, something many requested for a long time. But if you give them that, you'll need to give magicka dragonknights an execute. In simple words, as mentioned before, the class begins to lose it's identity more and more. This right here is why stamina should not have a stamina whip, but can have a weapon execute, and magicka, in theory, doesn't rely on an execute to function in pvp. The way they're designed does not support executes (magicka dks). They're supposed to get along just fine with their built in (again, theoretical) consistency.

InBedWithMySelf

@Savos_Saren Oh, and about the mobility, pretty much the same goes to that. Stamina versions of classes just work differently. Other than explaining the difference via a very long thread or reply, I don't know how to describe the difference. But if you understand it on your own that would save me a great deal :P