Dragonknights and the Thu'um

WhiteCoatSyndrome

Something that seems to escape much notice in the fandom is that Dragonknights in ESO use the Thu'um – yes, those fun sound-based super powers from Skyrim. I can hear a good half of you now: 'No they don't!' Yes they do. I have proof.

First, a lorebook that goes all the way back to Elderscrolls III: Morrowind – Children of the Sky, in addition to accurately describing a number of the effects many of you have played with first hand, also contains this little tidbit:

The power of a Nord can be articulated into a shout, like the kiai of an Akaviri swordsman. The strongest of their warriors are called "Tongues." When the Nords attack a city, they take no siege engines or cavalry; the Tongues form in a wedge in front of the gatehouse, and draw in breath. When the leader lets it out in a kiai, the doors are blown in, and the axemen rush into the city.

Notice that the word 'kiai' is used where a reader would expect to find the word 'Shout'. The Akaviri knew how to do these things, they just called it something else. This is confirmed by several lorebooks in ESO:

Legacy of the Dragonguard:

One of these was a former Dragonguard whose name is now lost, and is known only to this chronicler as the Grandmaster. He took it upon himself to ensure that the martial and mystical arts of the old Akaviri would survive into the new and turbulent Second Era. However, he would teach his skills only on condition that those he taught would go on to teach others. This was the origin of those whom we now call "the Dragon Knights."

Ardent Flame: Draconic or Endemic?

When he was old enough he'd left and made his way to central High Rock, where he'd fallen in with an old half-Akaviri arms-trainer who had taught him the ways of the so-called "dragonknights." It was then that he finally found his true calling perfecting the form of magical combat that the dragonknights refer to as "ardent flame."
Blowhard or no, once he brought up the arcane arts he piqued my interest. I asked him to tell me more about this discipline of martial magic, as I was unfamiliar with it, and he was only too happy to oblige. With ardent flame, he explained, the dragonknight could set his enemies afire, draw them to him with a flaming lasso, wreath himself in a cloak of flame, even breathe fire just like the legendary dragons of yore. And this was, he asserted, because a dragonknight used actual dragon magic handed down from those mighty warriors who fought and won a war with the dragons back before the First Era.

Mythical Beast, Real Powers:

In the generations since the fall of the Akaviri Potentates, a new martial tradition has arisen in Tamriel, one which bears all the hallmarks of a coherent magical discipline, though it is said to be descended from the powers of the legendary Dragons and those mortals who fought them. I refer, of course, to the so-called "Dragon Knights."

Finally the Tsaesci – for those of you unfamiliar that's the nation in Akavir the Dragonguard and later the Blades sprang from – have been dragonslayers since before they came to Tamriel. They have had plenty of exposure to dragon Shouts, they have zero reason not to make use of that brand of magic themselves.

'But-but-but you have to be Dragonborn to Shout!' There probably aren't many of you thinking this, but for those who are: no you don't. The Greybeards are not Dragonborn, and they Shout. Ulfric is not Dragonborn, and he Shouts. Being Dragonborn just means you can learn Shouts quickly and easily, rather than taking tedious years for each word.

A slightly larger number of you are probably protesting: 'But it takes the Greybeards decades to learn those Shouts! How can my twenty-something character know any?' There is precedent for this too:

We've brought down their main gate thanks to the young Voice master, but the brash lad took an arrow in the neck in the process.

The simple answer is practice, practice, practice. Recall: the Greybeards are pacifists. They use the Thu'um under two conditions: to revere the gods and in times of True Need. As they live on top of a remote mountain top, not much is going to bother them, thus they don't run into True Need very often. Your DK, in contrast, uses it every time you press the relevant button. Every other skill in the Elder Scrolls games gets better the more you use it; there is no reason to believe the Thu'um should be any different for ordinary mortals.

Dustfinger81

Nice post. very informative.

notimetocare

ESO has a good bit of nonsense in its lore, especially around its classes. Yea, it says it. No, everything a DK does is not Thuum. The vast majority is much like the basic magic everyone uses. Source: everything around the schools of magic.

Just as important, age is relative. A mer of 300 can call a younger mer at 200 young. That doesnt mean a 20s dk is going to be extremely proficient in thuum (as you premise would suggest). Ulfric spent years learning a single should he can use. Greybeards spend a lifetime learning their words (they point out exactly how long it can take).

Sure, maybe the DKs can use Thuum, but you are ignorant to the whole concept of Thuum if you think everything a DK does it Thuum

Rouven

I don't see where it says those shouts are in the dragon language.

Tyrobag

Only one ability that the DK has could even be seen as a shout: fire breath. Of course even that is dubious, as your character doesn't use any words of power. More likely, it is just a normal spell that the DK is casting in a dramatic fashion. This theory is backed up by the fact that the spell uses magicka, whereas we know that shouts do not.

notimetocare wrote: »

Just as important, age is relative. A mer of 300 can call a younger mer at 200 young. That doesnt mean a 20s dk is going to be extremely proficient in thuum (as you premise would suggest). Ulfric spent years learning a single should he can use. Greybeards spend a lifetime learning their words (they point out exactly how long it can take).

Honestly, the reason it takes so long for the graybeards to learn shouts is probably because they treat it as religion and meditate to learn shouts. The Akaviri use shouts for martial combat, they train the power vigorously as any mage or warrior trains a skill: through use. This is not to say that they could master it in a day, but learning a full shout in a year with dedicated training is certainly feasible.

notimetocare

Tyrobag wrote: »

Only one ability that the DK has could even be seen as a shout: fire breath. Of course even that is dubious, as your character doesn't use any words of power. More likely, it is just a normal spell that the DK is casting in a dramatic fashion. This theory is backed up by the fact that the spell uses magicka, whereas we know that shouts do not.

notimetocare wrote: »

Just as important, age is relative. A mer of 300 can call a younger mer at 200 young. That doesnt mean a 20s dk is going to be extremely proficient in thuum (as you premise would suggest). Ulfric spent years learning a single should he can use. Greybeards spend a lifetime learning their words (they point out exactly how long it can take).

Honestly, the reason it takes so long for the graybeards to learn shouts is probably because they treat it as religion and meditate to learn shouts. The Akaviri use shouts for martial combat, they train the power vigorously as any mage or warrior trains a skill: through use. This is not to say that they could master it in a day, but learning a full shout in a year with dedicated training is certainly feasible.

Big issue is we have no scale for what is feasible nor if just anyone can learn shouts.

MUSTACHMAN654

Well not necessarily, thu'um is a form of magic used by the ancient nords, and is very difficult to master unless you are Dovahkiin, who can shout without training. Dragonknights in eso use Akarvi martial arts. Also, when you perform fire breath, your character is not heard shouting "YOL TOR SHUL" so...

notimetocare

MUSTACHMAN654 wrote: »

Well not necessarily, thu'um is a form of magic used by the ancient nords, and is very difficult to master unless you are Dovahkiin, who can shout without training. Dragonknights in eso use Akarvi martial arts. Also, when you perform fire breath, your character is not heard shouting "YOL TOR SHUL" so...

Slight inaccuracy, but only slight: for ancient nords, it seems to be common. Either easy, innate, or the constant interactions with dragon overlords (and the need to fight back)

starkerealm

notimetocare wrote: »

MUSTACHMAN654 wrote: »

Well not necessarily, thu'um is a form of magic used by the ancient nords, and is very difficult to master unless you are Dovahkiin, who can shout without training. Dragonknights in eso use Akarvi martial arts. Also, when you perform fire breath, your character is not heard shouting "YOL TOR SHUL" so...

Slight inaccuracy, but only slight: for ancient nords, it seems to be common. Either easy, innate, or the constant interactions with dragon overlords (and the need to fight back)

If you're judging by Skyrim, you only see high level draugr and dragon priests shouting.

The priests are a no brainer. They literally worshiped the dragons. That was their religion. So it's not surprising they'd know a few shouts.

With the high level draugr. (Overlords and above, I think, but I'm not 100% certain), then we can guess, based on context, that they were also fairly high ranking members of the Dragon Cult, below the priests. Also, I'd have to check, but my recollection is these guys only know one shout (all three words, but still), which isn't that impressive when you consider the player may be rocking 10-30 shouts by the end of the main quest.

There's some lore retcons with the Draugr, between TES3 and Skyrim. In Bloodmoon we were told that they were the product of a nord resorting to cannibalism before dying of starvation (or something to that effect), while the ones in Skyrim are preserved by the Dragon cult. This apparently includes the barrows on Solstheim in the 4th Era, so... *shrugs*

Dustfinger81

starkerealm wrote: »

notimetocare wrote: »

MUSTACHMAN654 wrote: »

Well not necessarily, thu'um is a form of magic used by the ancient nords, and is very difficult to master unless you are Dovahkiin, who can shout without training. Dragonknights in eso use Akarvi martial arts. Also, when you perform fire breath, your character is not heard shouting "YOL TOR SHUL" so...

Slight inaccuracy, but only slight: for ancient nords, it seems to be common. Either easy, innate, or the constant interactions with dragon overlords (and the need to fight back)

If you're judging by Skyrim, you only see high level draugr and dragon priests shouting.

The priests are a no brainer. They literally worshiped the dragons. That was their religion. So it's not surprising they'd know a few shouts.

With the high level draugr. (Overlords and above, I think, but I'm not 100% certain), then we can guess, based on context, that they were also fairly high ranking members of the Dragon Cult, below the priests. Also, I'd have to check, but my recollection is these guys only know one shout (all three words, but still), which isn't that impressive when you consider the player may be rocking 10-30 shouts by the end of the main quest.

There's some lore retcons with the Draugr, between TES3 and Skyrim. In Bloodmoon we were told that they were the product of a nord resorting to cannibalism before dying of starvation (or something to that effect), while the ones in Skyrim are preserved by the Dragon cult. This apparently includes the barrows on Solstheim in the 4th Era, so... *shrugs*

Yeah but your comparing them to the Dragonborne. if all you have is 1 shout, but a lot of people have them, that would make it fairly common. especially when we see that it was common enough that the Nords wouldn't bring siege equipment. They had enough people to stand before the gate and bring it down with a shout.

starkerealm

Dustfinger81 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

notimetocare wrote: »

MUSTACHMAN654 wrote: »

Well not necessarily, thu'um is a form of magic used by the ancient nords, and is very difficult to master unless you are Dovahkiin, who can shout without training. Dragonknights in eso use Akarvi martial arts. Also, when you perform fire breath, your character is not heard shouting "YOL TOR SHUL" so...

Slight inaccuracy, but only slight: for ancient nords, it seems to be common. Either easy, innate, or the constant interactions with dragon overlords (and the need to fight back)

If you're judging by Skyrim, you only see high level draugr and dragon priests shouting.

The priests are a no brainer. They literally worshiped the dragons. That was their religion. So it's not surprising they'd know a few shouts.

With the high level draugr. (Overlords and above, I think, but I'm not 100% certain), then we can guess, based on context, that they were also fairly high ranking members of the Dragon Cult, below the priests. Also, I'd have to check, but my recollection is these guys only know one shout (all three words, but still), which isn't that impressive when you consider the player may be rocking 10-30 shouts by the end of the main quest.

There's some lore retcons with the Draugr, between TES3 and Skyrim. In Bloodmoon we were told that they were the product of a nord resorting to cannibalism before dying of starvation (or something to that effect), while the ones in Skyrim are preserved by the Dragon cult. This apparently includes the barrows on Solstheim in the 4th Era, so... *shrugs*

Yeah but your comparing them to the Dragonborne. if all you have is 1 shout, but a lot of people have them, that would make it fairly common. especially when we see that it was common enough that the Nords wouldn't bring siege equipment. They had enough people to stand before the gate and bring it down with a shout.

To be clear, Overlords are not common until very late game, when the wheels come off the level scaling wagon. Up to that point, it's pretty clear these guys are either the cult's elite, or their lieutenants. And, the priests themselves are not exactly common either. There's, what 12 or 13 of them total?

I can't remember if there's a Draugr flavor above overlord. I mean, the Draugr Murderbossdeathking comes to mind, but that was a joke. But, I haven't set foot on a Skyrim playthrough above level 30 in at least four years.

It's also somewhat disproportionate, given they're from an era when the dragons were present, and able to teach people, "this is how you yell at someone until their head explodes."

Dustfinger81

starkerealm wrote: »

Dustfinger81 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

notimetocare wrote: »

MUSTACHMAN654 wrote: »

Well not necessarily, thu'um is a form of magic used by the ancient nords, and is very difficult to master unless you are Dovahkiin, who can shout without training. Dragonknights in eso use Akarvi martial arts. Also, when you perform fire breath, your character is not heard shouting "YOL TOR SHUL" so...

Slight inaccuracy, but only slight: for ancient nords, it seems to be common. Either easy, innate, or the constant interactions with dragon overlords (and the need to fight back)

If you're judging by Skyrim, you only see high level draugr and dragon priests shouting.

The priests are a no brainer. They literally worshiped the dragons. That was their religion. So it's not surprising they'd know a few shouts.

With the high level draugr. (Overlords and above, I think, but I'm not 100% certain), then we can guess, based on context, that they were also fairly high ranking members of the Dragon Cult, below the priests. Also, I'd have to check, but my recollection is these guys only know one shout (all three words, but still), which isn't that impressive when you consider the player may be rocking 10-30 shouts by the end of the main quest.

There's some lore retcons with the Draugr, between TES3 and Skyrim. In Bloodmoon we were told that they were the product of a nord resorting to cannibalism before dying of starvation (or something to that effect), while the ones in Skyrim are preserved by the Dragon cult. This apparently includes the barrows on Solstheim in the 4th Era, so... *shrugs*

Yeah but your comparing them to the Dragonborne. if all you have is 1 shout, but a lot of people have them, that would make it fairly common. especially when we see that it was common enough that the Nords wouldn't bring siege equipment. They had enough people to stand before the gate and bring it down with a shout.

To be clear, Overlords are not common until very late game, when the wheels come off the level scaling wagon. Up to that point, it's pretty clear these guys are either the cult's elite, or their lieutenants. And, the priests themselves are not exactly common either. There's, what 12 or 13 of them total?

I can't remember if there's a Draugr flavor above overlord. I mean, the Draugr Murderbossdeathking comes to mind, but that was a joke. But, I haven't set foot on a Skyrim playthrough above level 30 in at least four years.

It's also somewhat disproportionate, given they're from an era when the dragons were present, and able to teach people, "this is how you yell at someone until their head explodes."

they may well be the cults elite but they were common enough to define a strategy of not bringing siege equipment. They don't need to be every third son but if they are common enough to define strategy on that scale, that is fairly common.

Enodoc

Rouven wrote: »

I don't see where it says those shouts are in the dragon language.

That's a good point actually. It's accepted that the Dragonknights are taught the ancient Akaviri arts, and that would probably include the kiai, but there's nothing to say the kiai is the Thu'um. The Thu'um specifically uses the Dragon language words of power, while the kiai sounds like it could be the channelling of your Akaviri mystical training into what is effectively a fireball spell originating from your mouth as opposed to a fireball spell originating from your hands.

RinaldoGandolphi

Enodoc wrote: »

Rouven wrote: »

I don't see where it says those shouts are in the dragon language.

That's a good point actually. It's accepted that the Dragonknights are taught the ancient Akaviri arts, and that would probably include the kiai, but there's nothing to say the kiai is the Thu'um. The Thu'um specifically uses the Dragon language words of power, while the kiai sounds like it could be the channelling of your Akaviri mystical training into what is effectively a fireball spell originating from your mouth as opposed to a fireball spell originating from your hands.

Yup

Plus the Tsaesci tend to have the ability to take on the characteristics of who they consume which explains why Akaviri Commander Mishaxhi looks humanlike in the Lifting the Veil Quest in Oblivion, but Savirien-Chorak looks very much like a snake/ell with no legs during his duel with Remen III son Prince Juilek from Carlovac Townaways 2920 Vol one Morning Star. One had consumed men(Mishaxhi) and one had not(Savirien-Chorak) for very obvious and political reasons he hadn't.

The reason the Tsaesci came to Tamriel in the 1st era looking for a Dragonborn was because the Dragonborn could do the one thing they couldn't....consume Dragons and become dragon like. So the Tsaesci developed their own magic to emulate dragons the best they could until they found a Dragonborn.

This is why they sweared fealty to Reman the minute they heard him use "The Voice" it was the "Real deal" the one thing they couldn't do....they knew he could actually consume Dragons and be "dragon like" so they sorta seen him as kinda like a sorta god hence why they protected, and revered the Dragonborn so much.

From the Rise and Fall of the Blades:

But the end result is the same, that the remaining Dragonguard, upon hearing the voice of Reman Cyrodiil, knelt and swore their lives to him, their conqueror and savior. Fragments of from late 1st era texts refer to the warriors dropping to their knees saying "we were not hunting" (or "did not intend", author - rough translation), continuing "we have been searching, for you."

They protected Reman with their lives, as well as his descendants, as the Reman Dynasty ushered in Tamriel's 2nd era. It was through these years that their reach extended, and their order grew to become the Blades. Their conquest of the dragons complete, they only sought to protect the Dragonborn, and through him, the Empire.

It makes sense the Tsaesci would hear rumors of people who could do what they couldn't(consume dragons) in a far of land and go in search of them in hopes of either learning how to do it themselves, or to rever the one who could.

MAEK

starkerealm wrote: »

notimetocare wrote: »

MUSTACHMAN654 wrote: »

Well not necessarily, thu'um is a form of magic used by the ancient nords, and is very difficult to master unless you are Dovahkiin, who can shout without training. Dragonknights in eso use Akarvi martial arts. Also, when you perform fire breath, your character is not heard shouting "YOL TOR SHUL" so...

Slight inaccuracy, but only slight: for ancient nords, it seems to be common. Either easy, innate, or the constant interactions with dragon overlords (and the need to fight back)

If you're judging by Skyrim, you only see high level draugr and dragon priests shouting.

The priests are a no brainer. They literally worshiped the dragons. That was their religion. So it's not surprising they'd know a few shouts.

With the high level draugr. (Overlords and above, I think, but I'm not 100% certain), then we can guess, based on context, that they were also fairly high ranking members of the Dragon Cult, below the priests. Also, I'd have to check, but my recollection is these guys only know one shout (all three words, but still), which isn't that impressive when you consider the player may be rocking 10-30 shouts by the end of the main quest.

There's some lore retcons with the Draugr, between TES3 and Skyrim. In Bloodmoon we were told that they were the product of a nord resorting to cannibalism before dying of starvation (or something to that effect), while the ones in Skyrim are preserved by the Dragon cult. This apparently includes the barrows on Solstheim in the 4th Era, so... *shrugs*

There was actually a lot of low level draugr who could shout, as restless draugr and above could shout (with some exceptions), at least acording to the elder scrolls wiki. http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Draugr_(Skyrim)

notimetocare

starkerealm wrote: »

notimetocare wrote: »

MUSTACHMAN654 wrote: »

Well not necessarily, thu'um is a form of magic used by the ancient nords, and is very difficult to master unless you are Dovahkiin, who can shout without training. Dragonknights in eso use Akarvi martial arts. Also, when you perform fire breath, your character is not heard shouting "YOL TOR SHUL" so...

Slight inaccuracy, but only slight: for ancient nords, it seems to be common. Either easy, innate, or the constant interactions with dragon overlords (and the need to fight back)

If you're judging by Skyrim, you only see high level draugr and dragon priests shouting.

The priests are a no brainer. They literally worshiped the dragons. That was their religion. So it's not surprising they'd know a few shouts.

With the high level draugr. (Overlords and above, I think, but I'm not 100% certain), then we can guess, based on context, that they were also fairly high ranking members of the Dragon Cult, below the priests. Also, I'd have to check, but my recollection is these guys only know one shout (all three words, but still), which isn't that impressive when you consider the player may be rocking 10-30 shouts by the end of the main quest.

There's some lore retcons with the Draugr, between TES3 and Skyrim. In Bloodmoon we were told that they were the product of a nord resorting to cannibalism before dying of starvation (or something to that effect), while the ones in Skyrim are preserved by the Dragon cult. This apparently includes the barrows on Solstheim in the 4th Era, so... *shrugs*

In the main quest, you see that during the dragon wars, many were using Thu'um

notimetocare

Enodoc wrote: »

Rouven wrote: »

I don't see where it says those shouts are in the dragon language.

That's a good point actually. It's accepted that the Dragonknights are taught the ancient Akaviri arts, and that would probably include the kiai, but there's nothing to say the kiai is the Thu'um. The Thu'um specifically uses the Dragon language words of power, while the kiai sounds like it could be the channelling of your Akaviri mystical training into what is effectively a fireball spell originating from your mouth as opposed to a fireball spell originating from your hands.

Precisely. Something uncommon in TES magic, that most might be used to, is verbal incantation. Moe rare, like Thu'um, is magic used only by incantation. Having more magic like Thu'um is plausible. But the Thu'um is very specific, and is very unlikely to be how DK magic is used

notimetocare

For a bit of fun:
If DK use Thu'um
And Thu'um is used instead of siege weapons to break down doors
Why can't DKs use spells to break down keep walls?

idk

Not sure if the DKs are actually intended to be dragonborn which I am assuming that's the premise of the OP.

Even if so, the graybeards and anyone else who could teach the Thu'um may not be teaching others at this time.

Dustfinger81

notimetocare wrote: »

For a bit of fun:
If DK use Thu'um
And Thu'um is used instead of siege weapons to break down doors
Why can't DKs use spells to break down keep walls?

Flawed logic. I use physics to walk and run. NASA uses physics to go into space. Why can't I go into space? Different applications.

notimetocare

Dustfinger81 wrote: »

notimetocare wrote: »

For a bit of fun:
If DK use Thu'um
And Thu'um is used instead of siege weapons to break down doors
Why can't DKs use spells to break down keep walls?

Flawed logic. I use physics to walk and run. NASA uses physics to go into space. Why can't I go into space? Different applications.

Go back and read his supporting lore sources. One includes use thuum to siege. And, it was a joke. lol

notimetocare

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Not sure if the DKs are actually intended to be dragonborn which I am assuming that's the premise of the OP.

Even if so, the graybeards and anyone else who could teach the Thu'um may not be teaching others at this time.

Not his premise, no. Not even part of the conversation much xD

Dustfinger81

notimetocare wrote: »

Dustfinger81 wrote: »

notimetocare wrote: »

For a bit of fun:
If DK use Thu'um
And Thu'um is used instead of siege weapons to break down doors
Why can't DKs use spells to break down keep walls?

Flawed logic. I use physics to walk and run. NASA uses physics to go into space. Why can't I go into space? Different applications.

Go back and read his supporting lore sources. One includes use thuum to siege. And, it was a joke. lol

Ah, didn't see that it was a joke. So many people argue with flawed logic and little actual lore basis.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

Tyrobag wrote: »

Only one ability that the DK has could even be seen as a shout: fire breath. Of course even that is dubious, as your character doesn't use any words of power. More likely, it is just a normal spell that the DK is casting in a dramatic fashion. This theory is backed up by the fact that the spell uses magicka, whereas we know that shouts do not.

Gameplay and story segregation. Recall, in Elderscrolls V Skyrim, even the Dragons use magicka for their Shouts:
Link

Dragons have their own unique "dragon" versions of the Fire Breath, Frost Breath, Unrelenting Force, and Drain VitalityDG shouts, and their Fireball and Ice Storm spells are treated like shouts as well. Dragons rely on their magicka reserves to use these shouts, which means that if a dragon's magicka is drained, it will not be able to use its shouts. The base damage for all the dragons detailed below is 25 (with the exception of the Skeletal Dragon), and their tail swipe attacks will stagger all enemies in a large area.

The player character gets to be the oddball there.

starkerealm

MAEK wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

notimetocare wrote: »

MUSTACHMAN654 wrote: »

Well not necessarily, thu'um is a form of magic used by the ancient nords, and is very difficult to master unless you are Dovahkiin, who can shout without training. Dragonknights in eso use Akarvi martial arts. Also, when you perform fire breath, your character is not heard shouting "YOL TOR SHUL" so...

Slight inaccuracy, but only slight: for ancient nords, it seems to be common. Either easy, innate, or the constant interactions with dragon overlords (and the need to fight back)

If you're judging by Skyrim, you only see high level draugr and dragon priests shouting.

The priests are a no brainer. They literally worshiped the dragons. That was their religion. So it's not surprising they'd know a few shouts.

With the high level draugr. (Overlords and above, I think, but I'm not 100% certain), then we can guess, based on context, that they were also fairly high ranking members of the Dragon Cult, below the priests. Also, I'd have to check, but my recollection is these guys only know one shout (all three words, but still), which isn't that impressive when you consider the player may be rocking 10-30 shouts by the end of the main quest.

There's some lore retcons with the Draugr, between TES3 and Skyrim. In Bloodmoon we were told that they were the product of a nord resorting to cannibalism before dying of starvation (or something to that effect), while the ones in Skyrim are preserved by the Dragon cult. This apparently includes the barrows on Solstheim in the 4th Era, so... *shrugs*

There was actually a lot of low level draugr who could shout, as restless draugr and above could shout (with some exceptions), at least acording to the elder scrolls wiki. http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Draugr_(Skyrim)

Weird, that looks legit, and meshes with what I remember encountering years ago when I played Skyrim regularly, but isn't what I've been encountering this week when I was replaying it.

notimetocare wrote: »

In the main quest, you see that during the dragon wars, many were using Thu'um

Yeah, the key part of this is, "during the dragon wars." If I remember correctly, the people you see shouting in those sequences are dragonborn. This seems especially likely given that they could apparently create their own shouts.

starkerealm

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

Only one ability that the DK has could even be seen as a shout: fire breath. Of course even that is dubious, as your character doesn't use any words of power. More likely, it is just a normal spell that the DK is casting in a dramatic fashion. This theory is backed up by the fact that the spell uses magicka, whereas we know that shouts do not.

Gameplay and story segregation. Recall, in Elderscrolls V Skyrim, even the Dragons use magicka for their Shouts:
Link

Dragons have their own unique "dragon" versions of the Fire Breath, Frost Breath, Unrelenting Force, and Drain VitalityDG shouts, and their Fireball and Ice Storm spells are treated like shouts as well. Dragons rely on their magicka reserves to use these shouts, which means that if a dragon's magicka is drained, it will not be able to use its shouts. The base damage for all the dragons detailed below is 25 (with the exception of the Skeletal Dragon), and their tail swipe attacks will stagger all enemies in a large area.

The player character gets to be the oddball there.

Not so much though. Because the shouts are still expressed verbally. That's universal between the player and NPCs. In fact the Dragons are using the same words to initiate them that the player will use. With practice you can recognize their shouts before the ability activates.

At this point, if you want to argue that the dragons use magicka to cast at a lore level, then you need to explain why they do, but a dragonborn does not. Then extrapolate from that why a DK would be more like a dragon than a human with the soul of a dragon. While still eschewing the primary element of the magic in question.

By definition, a character cannot be using the Thu'um if they're not speaking the words aloud. The word, "Thu'um," literally translates to, "shout." If they're not, you know, actually saying something, it's not a Thu'um. This part is completely non-negotiable about how this flavor of magic works.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

starkerealm wrote: »

Yeah, the key part of this is, "during the dragon wars." If I remember correctly, the people you see shouting in those sequences are dragonborn. This seems especially likely given that they could apparently create their own shouts.

They're not, because as you'll recall:

1.) The three of them kill a 'normal' dovah at the beginning of sequence, and no soul eating occurs.
2.) Gormlaith Golden-Hilt was killed by Alduin, and he didn't eat her soul on the spot.

They tried to get Miraak, but he turned them down.

The dragon language is in fact a language, so making up Dragonrend has less to do with inventing words and more to do with understanding mortality. Note that Alduin even uses the word for 'mortal' in his dialog – just not as a Shout.

starkerealm wrote: »

Not so much though. Because the shouts are still expressed verbally. That's universal between the player and NPCs. In fact the Dragons are using the same words to initiate them that the player will use. With practice you can recognize their shouts before the ability activates.

Yes, and what makes you think the abilities in the game aren't being spoken aloud? Because you don't hear it? That's a gameplay thing too: note that a number of abilities (not just DK) have no spoken dialog when used, but are nevertheless affected by the Silence effect of Negate Magic. Implying every ability that uses Magicka has some kind of spoken component.

But nobody wants to hear the exact same bit of speech every time they hit a button, because that would get obnoxious fast. So no voice acting for it.

starkerealm wrote: »

At this point, if you want to argue that the dragons use magicka to cast at a lore level, then you need to explain why they do, but a dragonborn does not. Then extrapolate from that why a DK would be more like a dragon than a human with the soul of a dragon. While still eschewing the primary element of the magic in question.

...I'm not, and I'm having trouble figuring out why you think I am. 'Dragonknights use Magicka for their abilities, therefore it can't be the Thu'um because the Thu'um doesn't use Magicka' is an invalid argument and that's why – it's a gameplay thing, set up to be usable by a player and/or maintained by the devs.

starkerealm

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Not so much though. Because the shouts are still expressed verbally. That's universal between the player and NPCs. In fact the Dragons are using the same words to initiate them that the player will use. With practice you can recognize their shouts before the ability activates.

Yes, and what makes you think the abilities in the game aren't being spoken aloud? Because you don't hear it?

Because they're not. Yes. And you can try to pawn that off as a gameplay consideration. But, it's worth remembering that Skyrim did not. You know, the single player games where your character isn't even voiced (normally), and yet there are 20 separate audio sets for the Thu'um.

I'd give the idea that the audio is cut, simply because it would be annoying if the DK didn't have vocalizations to go with most (if not all) of their powers. The problem is, those aren't in the Dragon language. They're grunting like they just stubbed their toe, not like they're invoking a language that shakes the world. Which is why I've said, if you want to argue that they're practicing Akiviri magic... yeah, I can get behind that. But, they're not using the Thu'um.

Tyrobag

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

...I'm not, and I'm having trouble figuring out why you think I am. 'Dragonknights use Magicka for their abilities, therefore it can't be the Thu'um because the Thu'um doesn't use Magicka' is an invalid argument and that's why – it's a gameplay thing, set up to be usable by a player and/or maintained by the devs.

Finding what is or isn't a "gameplay thing" is a very fine line, often its best to work from what is visible (as a starting point), as this is what you are intended to see. In skyrim, we cant see that dragons are using the magicka attribute when shouting, yet we can see that the player does not. From a gameplay perspective it makes sense to run dragons' shouts off magicka, as this allows them to use them multiple times in a row, but still be limited in how many times. If you have modded Skyrim, you understand what I mean. Shouts are on a timer, while magicka has more flexibility. By running dragon shouts off magicka, dragon fights feel far more spontaneous (as you wont be able to simply count down until the dragon shouts again). And since the player can't see that dragons are technically using magicka, no harm done.

And as I said before, there is only one DK ability that originates from your mouth anyway, so Fiery Breath and its morphs are the only abilities in question here.

starkerealm

Tyrobag wrote: »

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

...I'm not, and I'm having trouble figuring out why you think I am. 'Dragonknights use Magicka for their abilities, therefore it can't be the Thu'um because the Thu'um doesn't use Magicka' is an invalid argument and that's why – it's a gameplay thing, set up to be usable by a player and/or maintained by the devs.

Finding what is or isn't a "gameplay thing" is a very fine line, often its best to work from what is visible (as a starting point), as this is what you are intended to see. In skyrim, we cant see that dragons are using the magicka attribute when shouting, yet we can see that the player does not. From a gameplay perspective it makes sense to run dragons' shouts off magicka, as this allows them to use them multiple times in a row, but still be limited in how many times. If you have modded Skyrim, you understand what I mean. Shouts are on a timer, while magicka has more flexibility. By running dragon shouts off magicka, dragon fights feel far more spontaneous (as you wont be able to simply count down until the dragon shouts again). And since the player can't see that dragons are technically using magicka, no harm done.

And as I said before, there is only one DK ability that originates from your mouth anyway, so Fiery Breath and its morphs are the only abilities in question here.

Even then, a Thu'um user will say, Yol Toor Shul, and vomit flame. A DK will kinda go, "ugh," and then puke poison and mead everywhere.

notimetocare

starkerealm wrote: »

MAEK wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

notimetocare wrote: »

MUSTACHMAN654 wrote: »

Well not necessarily, thu'um is a form of magic used by the ancient nords, and is very difficult to master unless you are Dovahkiin, who can shout without training. Dragonknights in eso use Akarvi martial arts. Also, when you perform fire breath, your character is not heard shouting "YOL TOR SHUL" so...

Slight inaccuracy, but only slight: for ancient nords, it seems to be common. Either easy, innate, or the constant interactions with dragon overlords (and the need to fight back)

If you're judging by Skyrim, you only see high level draugr and dragon priests shouting.

The priests are a no brainer. They literally worshiped the dragons. That was their religion. So it's not surprising they'd know a few shouts.

With the high level draugr. (Overlords and above, I think, but I'm not 100% certain), then we can guess, based on context, that they were also fairly high ranking members of the Dragon Cult, below the priests. Also, I'd have to check, but my recollection is these guys only know one shout (all three words, but still), which isn't that impressive when you consider the player may be rocking 10-30 shouts by the end of the main quest.

There's some lore retcons with the Draugr, between TES3 and Skyrim. In Bloodmoon we were told that they were the product of a nord resorting to cannibalism before dying of starvation (or something to that effect), while the ones in Skyrim are preserved by the Dragon cult. This apparently includes the barrows on Solstheim in the 4th Era, so... *shrugs*

There was actually a lot of low level draugr who could shout, as restless draugr and above could shout (with some exceptions), at least acording to the elder scrolls wiki. http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Draugr_(Skyrim)

Weird, that looks legit, and meshes with what I remember encountering years ago when I played Skyrim regularly, but isn't what I've been encountering this week when I was replaying it.

notimetocare wrote: »

In the main quest, you see that during the dragon wars, many were using Thu'um

Yeah, the key part of this is, "during the dragon wars." If I remember correctly, the people you see shouting in those sequences are dragonborn. This seems especially likely given that they could apparently create their own shouts.

Iffy, more than just those few main characters were using Thu'um. Big point in the dragon wars is mortals were taught directly by dragons