Two-Handed Light Attack speed, possible oversight

Ihonu

Two-Handed light Attack-Damage has been reduced to be equal to the dual-wield-damage. I tested dual-wield and two-handed attacks on the dummy and my test shows that the two-handed light-attack-speed ist still slower than the dual-wielding-attack-speed. So two-handed light-attacks deal roughly 30% less dps than dual-wielding light-attacks, because they are slower.

The slower light-attack-Speed of two-handers was fair when two-handed did more damage than dual-wield, but now that the Damage is equalizised, two-handed light attacks have a huge dps disadvantage.

Maybe the devs forgot that two-handed attacks are slower than dual-wield attacks, when they nerved the two-handed Damage.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Two handed light attacks are AOE. You trade single target potential for that AOE. Simple.

Ihonu

With 30% less attack-Speed and equal Damage, you need 3 Targets in close melee range, to get slightly more Damage than dual-wield and you are at a severe disadvantage in all other situations.

This makes two-handed very situational, even more so if you consider that the best melee aoe skill "steel Tornado" ist a dual-wield skill.

And you pay for that aoe Damage with passive Points, for which you get other stuff in the dual-wield tree. So I don't think this equals out that two-handeders are slower than dual-wield. It was balanced when they did more Damage but now two-handed is just penalized.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

You are comparing something you get for "free", light attack damage, to a skill that costs stamina, steel tornado, this is apples to oranges. Please stick to comparing light attacks to light attacks.

You say "With 30% less attack-Speed and equal Damage, you need 3 Targets in close melee range, " this is false. While the aoe damage can't crit, since it is a percentage based damage of a damage, it does scale with percentage amps. On my Stam sorc orc, the aoe hits for 84% of the main damage. This means if there is even 1 add, the splash damage will make up for the fact that it is slower. Trade off. I will say that the light attack AOE should not have a cap. There is no other AOE in this game that has a cap.


I would be willing to bet if you did a parse with just one extra dummy in close proximity and use the right skills from two-handers, ie reverse slice, you would get more dps from a two-hander then dual wield. But no one cares about that.

And to be clear, this was noticed on the pts for summerset, read here- https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/407189/2h-light-attack-nerf/p1

Ihonu

Well maybe you are right... but I'm not happy with the Change. And what I especially don't like is that it's explained nowhere to you. It says no where in the two-handed description that the two-handed attacks are way worse in singletarget dps. You have to find out through extensive testing. It should really tell you stuff like this in the skill descriptions.

TheUndeadAmulet

lol i love how hitting someone with a massive sword does the same amount of damage as hitting someone with a little dagger. Makes perfect sense

mr_wazzabi

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Two handed light attacks are AOE. You trade single target potential for that AOE. Simple.

Even with the aoe forceful passive, 2h still lags behind dw in raids by about 5k dps

It was tested in pts.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Two handed light attacks are AOE. You trade single target potential for that AOE. Simple.

Even with the aoe forceful passive, 2h still lags behind dw in raids by about 5k dps

It was tested in pts.

Not to be short but no s*** sherlock. In raids it is because of skills, not light attacks, it is behind. And I am sure you mean single target, like everyone else with tunnel, dummy hero, vision.

mr_wazzabi

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Two handed light attacks are AOE. You trade single target potential for that AOE. Simple.

Even with the aoe forceful passive, 2h still lags behind dw in raids by about 5k dps

It was tested in pts.

Not to be short but no s*** sherlock. In raids it is because of skills, not light attacks, it is behind. And I am sure you mean single target, like everyone else with tunnel, dummy hero, vision.

This was a trial parse where forceful was measured as a damage source.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Two handed light attacks are AOE. You trade single target potential for that AOE. Simple.

Even with the aoe forceful passive, 2h still lags behind dw in raids by about 5k dps

It was tested in pts.

Not to be short but no s*** sherlock. In raids it is because of skills, not light attacks, it is behind. And I am sure you mean single target, like everyone else with tunnel, dummy hero, vision.

This was a trial parse where forceful was measured as a damage source.

I don't understand what you mean by this. Did you have a mob next to the boss 100% of the time? The passive is only a percentage base damage source, so I am not sure why you keep saying trial parse. The only thing that matters is if there is a mob there the whole time. Otherwise you can't really compare the damage from dual wield light attacks with two-handers, trial or not. That would be like comparing lighting heavy attacks to fire heavy attacks without having AOE mins there. Of course one is going to be better than the other.

Ihonu

TheUndeadAmulet wrote: »

lol i love how hitting someone with a massive sword does the same amount of damage as hitting someone with a little dagger. Makes perfect sense

Yeah, you hit slower with the massive Sword because it is so massive and heavy, but it hits for the same damage, because you know Physics....

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Ihonu wrote: »

TheUndeadAmulet wrote: »

lol i love how hitting someone with a massive sword does the same amount of damage as hitting someone with a little dagger. Makes perfect sense

Yeah, you hit slower with the massive Sword because it is so massive and heavy, but it hits for the same damage, because you know Physics....

But it doesn't hit for the same damage. Up to 3 other people next the the one you hit get some damage on them.

mr_wazzabi

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Two handed light attacks are AOE. You trade single target potential for that AOE. Simple.

Even with the aoe forceful passive, 2h still lags behind dw in raids by about 5k dps

It was tested in pts.

Not to be short but no s*** sherlock. In raids it is because of skills, not light attacks, it is behind. And I am sure you mean single target, like everyone else with tunnel, dummy hero, vision.

This was a trial parse where forceful was measured as a damage source.

I don't understand what you mean by this. Did you have a mob next to the boss 100% of the time? The passive is only a percentage base damage source, so I am not sure why you keep saying trial parse. The only thing that matters is if there is a mob there the whole time. Otherwise you can't really compare the damage from dual wield light attacks with two-handers, trial or not. That would be like comparing lighting heavy attacks to fire heavy attacks without having AOE mins there. Of course one is going to be better than the other.

You have it all wrong here.

What myself and other 2h users want is for zos to revert the nerf, making 2h have the strongest light attack. Before Summerset's light attack scaling change, dw has outclassed 2h in dps through skills. Having 2h with stronger light attacks finally could bridge the gap in dps in a unique way, rather than improving the 2h skills to match that of dw.

Also remember that dw can have 2 enchants and 2 traits, which will always be an advantage, no matter how good 2h gets. It also has blade cloak, which in some situations cam be more advantageous than having hardened ward or harness magicka up due to its flat 25% aoe reduction.

I don't believe the presence of forceful will make 2h outclass dw if 2h light attack hits harder, because of the 2 enchant and trait option, as well as rending slashes being a superior dot to brawler and steel tornado being a better aoe spammable than brawler. Even if you put reverse slice into the mix, the splash damage has a much smaller radius than steel tornado.

It's good to have each weapon be better in different ways, but with the nerf, dw clearly outclasses 2h in a way that makes it not worth running in pve. How is a stronger light attack, stronger skills, blade cloak AND 2 enchants and traits fair? Forceful does not equal all 4 of those advantages. Neither does rally or battle rush.

I rest my case.

@Daus please add your input here.

Strider__Roshin

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Two handed light attacks are AOE. You trade single target potential for that AOE. Simple.

Even with the aoe forceful passive, 2h still lags behind dw in raids by about 5k dps

It was tested in pts.

Not to be short but no s*** sherlock. In raids it is because of skills, not light attacks, it is behind. And I am sure you mean single target, like everyone else with tunnel, dummy hero, vision.

This was a trial parse where forceful was measured as a damage source.

I don't understand what you mean by this. Did you have a mob next to the boss 100% of the time? The passive is only a percentage base damage source, so I am not sure why you keep saying trial parse. The only thing that matters is if there is a mob there the whole time. Otherwise you can't really compare the damage from dual wield light attacks with two-handers, trial or not. That would be like comparing lighting heavy attacks to fire heavy attacks without having AOE mins there. Of course one is going to be better than the other.

You have it all wrong here.

What myself and other 2h users want is for zos to revert the nerf, making 2h have the strongest light attack. Before Summerset's light attack scaling change, dw has outclassed 2h in dps through skills. Having 2h with stronger light attacks finally could bridge the gap in dps in a unique way, rather than improving the 2h skills to match that of dw.

Also remember that dw can have 2 enchants and 2 traits, which will always be an advantage, no matter how good 2h gets. It also has blade cloak, which in some situations cam be more advantageous than having hardened ward or harness magicka up due to its flat 25% aoe reduction.

I don't believe the presence of forceful will make 2h outclass dw if 2h light attack hits harder, because of the 2 enchant and trait option, as well as rending slashes being a superior dot to brawler and steel tornado being a better aoe spammable than brawler. Even if you put reverse slice into the mix, the splash damage has a much smaller radius than steel tornado.

It's good to have each weapon be better in different ways, but with the nerf, dw clearly outclasses 2h in a way that makes it not worth running in pve. How is a stronger light attack, stronger skills, blade cloak AND 2 enchants and traits fair? Forceful does not equal all 4 of those advantages. Neither does rally or battle rush.

I rest my case.

@Daus please add your input here.

Not much to add honestly. DW has superior ST DPS via 2 enchants/traits, superior AoE DPS via Steel Tornado, and superior survivability via Blade Cloak. Objectively you can't justify using a 2H over DW in PvE.

Some simple fixes would be to change the passives and light/heavy attack damage.

For starters it makes zero sense that the 2H doesn't deal more damage considering the fact that its light and heavy attacks are slower than DW. Increase the damage or make it match in speed.

Forceful: this passive needs to double in splash damage to compensate for the initial nerf, and the nerf that came with SI.

Follow-up: even with the extra 10% it is a damage loss to heavy attack weave with a 2H. A better idea would be to make it so Follow-up empowers your next light attack.

Simple and easy fixes.

glavius

Doesn't matter if you weave. If your rotation is light attack only it matters...
But yes it's an oversight when they normalized light attack damage. But one that doesn't matter.

Ihonu

The difference isn't that huge, while you weave, and way more difficult to test. But I'm relatively sure from my testing, that the light attack Damage is also worse during weaving. The attack Animation takes longer to finish.

Darkstorne

If they refuse to improve the damage then at the very least they need to improve the attack animations. They take soooooo long to complete, and the delay is always on the after-swing so it feels like your character should just use the momentum of one swing to carry into the next but... refuses to. Looks ridiculous, feels jarring.

glavius

Ihonu wrote: »

The difference isn't that huge, while you weave, and way more difficult to test. But I'm relatively sure from my testing, that the light attack Damage is also worse during weaving. The attack Animation takes longer to finish.

You cancel the animation with your skills so it doesn't matter.

Darkstorne

glavius wrote: »

Ihonu wrote: »

The difference isn't that huge, while you weave, and way more difficult to test. But I'm relatively sure from my testing, that the light attack Damage is also worse during weaving. The attack Animation takes longer to finish.

You cancel the animation with your skills so it doesn't matter.

With logic like that you could apply for a job with ZOS...

glavius

No point spending their resources at something that doesn't matter, when they have hundreds of other important things to fix.