2H Light Attack Nerf?

mr_wazzabi

Looking at the patch notes, every weapon had its light attacks buffed, but 2H got a nerf.

Why?

This makes no sense.

Is it because of the splash damage passive? I'm sure even if it got buffed, the splash damage would be insignificant.

Even with the item set changes 2H is still outclassed by DW in pve and this change makes it more undesirable.

@WROBEL @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom cany comment on the reasoning for this?

Avran_Sylt

My guess:

2H on Live has a higher LA scaling than DW, as DW can LA more times successively.

2H weaving rotations have the same number of light attacks as DW weave rotations.

They're nerfing 2H scaling to be more in line with DW now that they have access to 5-5-2 setups as well.

Avran_Sylt

Though, it should be considered that DW does have access to a 2nd enchantment. Which 2H does not have access to.

Avran_Sylt

@Kanar

I really wish they'd give DW and 2H the good ole Fire and Lightning treatment. One of them is better at Single Target (DPS parses) the other is better at AoE (Trash).

Unfortunately since the majority of the Stam Rotation DoTs are locked behind a 3rd weapon (Bow), it pretty much means you have to homogenize the two skill lines to make PvErs happy.

Wish they'd just go full tilt into 2H or DW being better at one or the other, and have it such that swapping weapons in dungeons depending on what you face would be the way to go if you're a min/maxer.

Marto

The light attacks and heavy attacks of ALL weapons have been modified and re-scaled.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

General

• Rebalanced the Light and Heavy Attack damage scaling ratios so that Light and Heavy Attacks now scale their damage in the same way that normal abilities do – Max Magicka and Max Stamina is now a greater contributing factor towards their damage.

Don't call it a buff or a nerf until you test it.

Strider__Roshin

Marto wrote: »

The light attacks and heavy attacks of ALL weapons have been modified and re-scaled.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

General

• Rebalanced the Light and Heavy Attack damage scaling ratios so that Light and Heavy Attacks now scale their damage in the same way that normal abilities do – Max Magicka and Max Stamina is now a greater contributing factor towards their damage.

Don't call it a buff or a nerf until you test it.

I tested it and it's a nerf. My light attacks are around 1k weaker on the pts than live. When they're empowered they're 1k stronger than they are on live. They really need to undo this nerf because it is not justified.

mr_wazzabi

Daus wrote: »

Marto wrote: »

The light attacks and heavy attacks of ALL weapons have been modified and re-scaled.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

General

• Rebalanced the Light and Heavy Attack damage scaling ratios so that Light and Heavy Attacks now scale their damage in the same way that normal abilities do – Max Magicka and Max Stamina is now a greater contributing factor towards their damage.

Don't call it a buff or a nerf until you test it.

I tested it and it's a nerf. My light attacks are around 1k weaker on the pts than live. When they're empowered they're 1k stronger than they are on live. They really need to undo this nerf because it is not justified.

This is not cool

Sordidfairytale

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Though, it should be considered that DW does have access to a 2nd enchantment. Which 2H does not have access to.

Agreed. However it should also be noted Dual Wield does require double the improvement mats and twice the time (on average) to search for the appropriate gear. I'm not saying that justifies a reduction on LA damage however.

mr_wazzabi

@ZOS_GinaBruno @Wrobel @ZOS_JessicaFolsom any explanation for this nerf?

2h has been outclassed by dw for years and now you nerf again?

@Daus just confirmed that it is indeed a nerf as his light attacks hit for 1k less than on live.

This nerf makes no sense whatsoever.

mr_wazzabi

Does nobody care about this?

This nerf will kill 2h's potential re-entry into pve and could kill it in pvp as well.

What the hell are you thinking ZOS?

Aedaryl

I think they nerfed it because of PvP.

Everysingle stam build is running 2h in cyrodiil.

Maybe they wanted to make it less BiS ?

(It's useless since Momentum is the reason why people choose it).

Kanar

Aedaryl wrote: »

I think they nerfed it because of PvP.

Everysingle stam build is running 2h in cyrodiil.

Maybe they wanted to make it less BiS ?

(It's useless since Momentum is the reason why people choose it).

Then they missed their mark pretty badly. I don't think 2hander's light attacks are why it is popular in PvP, as you said.

NyassaV

Stam is sorta over preforming in PvP I guess this is one way they wanted to nerf it? It's sorta fair but at the same time not totally needed?

NyassaV

Kanar wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

I think they nerfed it because of PvP.

Everysingle stam build is running 2h in cyrodiil.

Maybe they wanted to make it less BiS ?

(It's useless since Momentum is the reason why people choose it).

Then they missed their mark pretty badly. I don't think 2hander's light attacks are why it is popular in PvP, as you said.

People weave. Decreasing one's overall DPS on a target. If you are a nightblade you should be weaving for sure. This chance will reduce the pressure on a target...

IDK ok, stam is over preforming in PvP so this is probably the BS change to mitigate it. Like when they took 7% of frag's damage off but left the stun until 2 patches later.

Strider__Roshin

NyassaV wrote: »

Stam is sorta over preforming in PvP I guess this is one way they wanted to nerf it? It's sorta fair but at the same time not totally needed?

I don't see how Stam is over performing honestly. When it comes to dueling, on the PTS magDKs are dominating. When it comes to group PvP once again magDKs are the damage king, and right up there with it you have magplars keeping the team alive. The whole stamina is OP thing is something I only see on the forums, but not in the game itself. People also say that 40% of BGs are Nightblades yet you're lucky to see more than 2 in a match out of all 3 teams.

Murador178

Aedaryl wrote: »

I think they nerfed it because of PvP.

Everysingle stam build is running 2h in cyrodiil.

Maybe they wanted to make it less BiS ?

(It's useless since Momentum is the reason why people choose it).

And after this still every stam build will run it - playing something like dw/bow is on most classes completely unviable. Its just a flat 2h/bow build nerf. Wont affect dw/2h or snb/2h too much so. Probably they aim to give a reason to play dw/2h or snb/2h in openworld PvP.

The way to increase options would be moving rallye to fighters guild and nerfing it a bit. Giving 2h a decent spell on the 5's spot and it would be dot (in groups steel tornado) vs execute and the 5 th skill. With 2h counting as 2 weapons there would have been no real reason to drop the speed from bow(+Poison inject with vDSA bow)

Tempestwrath

I was really excited at 2H/Bow being relevant in PVE until I saw this change and saw the results from it. If anything, even with the 2 set pieces buff, I strongly suspect 2H PVE builds will be even worse off than they were before the patch.

Worst of all I don't think this will really do anything at all to lessen the usage of 2H in PVP because it doesn't really address the reasons why people use it in PVP in the first place.

In all, this particular change is my biggest issue in the entire patch notes and it just leaves me scratching my head.

glavius

It makes sense though. 2h light attacks do over 50% more dmg than dw light attacks on live. The reason for this is that they are slower, but this does not matter because we weave anyway.

This change make them equal.

mr_wazzabi

glavius wrote: »

It makes sense though. 2h light attacks do over 50% more dmg than dw light attacks on live. The reason for this is that they are slower, but this does not matter because we weave anyway.

This change make them equal.

No it does not. @Daus did a test and light attacks are 1k less damage than on live. No way are dw light attacks 1k less than 2h. Now with the buff, dw light attacks will hit significantly harder. That's not balance, that's killing a skill line.

Strider__Roshin

glavius wrote: »

It makes sense though. 2h light attacks do over 50% more dmg than dw light attacks on live. The reason for this is that they are slower, but this does not matter because we weave anyway.

This change make them equal.

No it does not make sense because the heavy attacks for DW are much faster than the 2H. If they're going to make them equal in damage than they need to be equal in speed and in DPS in terms of pve. Since the 2H has a shower heavy attack, and has lower DPS in pve this change is completely unjustified, and needs to be rectified.

mr_wazzabi

Still no ZOS response to this?

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_Wrobel ?

Baconlad

2h light attacks are not slower in a weave than DW. They are considering that many stam classes in PVP use wrecking blow which gives them empower, ultimately increasing the weave damage potential when considering the two set items 2h now has. DW and heavy light attacks are more balanced now than they were before. It was a huge buff to wrecking blow weavers...which were already extremely common this patch...as 2h has everything you could want from a skill line. They could Nerf 2h light attacks by 50% and most players would still use it over DW...stamplar definitely is going to love being able to drop DW and run SnB back bar while getting the same set bonuses as DW. Now the only thing DW offers is more weapon damage...even if not by much. As opposed to being able to run more weapon damage AND set bonuses. It's a good change by zeni, and thoughtfully of them to foresee

Strider__Roshin

Baconlad wrote: »

2h light attacks are not slower in a weave than DW. They are considering that many stam classes in PVP use wrecking blow which gives them empower, ultimately increasing the weave damage potential when considering the two set items 2h now has. DW and heavy light attacks are more balanced now than they were before. It was a huge buff to wrecking blow weavers...which were already extremely common this patch...as 2h has everything you could want from a skill line. They could Nerf 2h light attacks by 50% and most players would still use it over DW...stamplar definitely is going to love being able to drop DW and run SnB back bar while getting the same set bonuses as DW. Now the only thing DW offers is more weapon damage...even if not by much. As opposed to being able to run more weapon damage AND set bonuses. It's a good change by zeni, and thoughtfully of them to foresee

DW procs twice as many enchants. The 2H having stronger light attacks was balanced because of it. Now there's an even higher imbalance between the two.

Also don't okay coy, no Templar or Nightblade used uppercut, and the strongest builds use DW for the extra enchant and rending slashes. Yes every Stam build uses the 2H but that has nothing to do with the 2H being good, but it has everything to do with Rally being necessary. Move Rally to the fighters guild, and watch the 2H die in pvp. The ones you see using uppercut are wardens, sorcs, and DKs because they don't have a class spammable, and uppercut > flurry. With that said LA->Low Slash->Bash is even stronger than uppercut, but harder to pull off which is why it isn't used by anyone that isn't top tier.

Chilly-McFreeze

I haven’t seen a wrecking blow spammer in ages. All dizzy, if they use 2h for spamming at all and not just for gap closing, buffing or the execute

b.bredfeldtub17_ESO

Also, in PvE, the only meta build that uses WB (2h/Bow stam sorc) weaves heavies.

To add to that, in PvP, I thought the general use for Dizzy was to queue up a heavy attack and force it to trigger by casting dizzy for massive wombo combo damage?

Note: I don't actually PvP much and have never done so with a 2h build, so I might be off on that. It's just what I remember seeing in some other discussions.

highnds

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Still no ZOS response to this?

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_Wrobel ?

They won't respond, I've been trying to get an answer from them for 2 days now about it.

olsborg

Im fine with 2h and dw being on relatively equal footing as far as light attacks go, you both need to be in melee.
Im not however, cool with staff and other ranged light attacks dealing equal or more dmg then melee weapons.

Strider__Roshin

olsborg wrote: »

Im fine with 2h and dw being on relatively equal footing as far as light attacks go, you both need to be in melee.
Im not however, cool with staff and other ranged light attacks dealing equal or more dmg then melee weapons.

Yeah that makes no sense. Melee should always out DPS range on a stand still target. The advantage of range is the ability to contently deal damage, and be out of harms way.

Tempestwrath

It really feels like, based on some of the parses I've seen, that 2H is even farther behind than it was before this patch in PVE. Shouldn't the balance goal be to bring underperforming specs up to par?

I just can't really understand the rationale behind making a change that does that without addressing why 2H is so good in PVP.

olsborg

With the exact same setup and dw and 2h passives unlocked, LA from 2h did 3130 dmg vs LA from dw did 3148 dmg. So in this patch dw actually passes 2h in regards to light attacks, and dw was already better at a pve perspective already. Doesnt make too much sense to me, but oh well.

Whats really concerning tho is the fact that staff light attacks deal the most dmg, more then both dw and 2h. This specially does not make any kinds of sense to me. Ranged vs melee :?: (havent tested that personally, but I have it from reliable sources)

mr_wazzabi

olsborg wrote: »

With the exact same setup and dw and 2h passives unlocked, LA from 2h did 3130 dmg vs LA from dw did 3148 dmg. So in this patch dw actually passes 2h in regards to light attacks, and dw was already better at a pve perspective already. Doesnt make too much sense to me, but oh well.

Whats really concerning tho is the fact that staff light attacks deal the most dmg, more then both dw and 2h. This specially does not make any kinds of sense to me. Ranged vs melee :?: (havent tested that personally, but I have it from reliable sources)

This is concerning. Have you tested bow LA?