Votan's Outfit Station Neutered By API Update

nudel

With Summerset, some important functions to update the item preview were purportedly privatized in the API. This is extremely unfortunate as there was a very nice addon that allowed for the saving of in-progress outfit designs from the preview menu.

Why is this such a problem? Well it actually allowed me to be anywhere and play around with the outfit preview which is built in the game, without having to note down every single change on a notepad for when i got to an outfit station later (I have since done this and it's exceptionally tedious). This freedom to play creatively before committing to the cost actually resulted in me spending MORE at the outfit station than I did before installing it or since its nullification.

It did not negate the gold cost as it still required gold to apply a saved outfit and actually be able to use it. Likewise, it didn't negate the desire for outfit slots as there was still a convenience factor of having multiple outfits to switch to as well as the gold savings of not overwriting another outfit with every switch.

Please reconsider and release this function again.

Taleof2Cities

Shouldn’t this thread be in the Add-Ons and UI mods section?

nudel

Apologies. Yes, you're right. I wasn't sure where to post it. I'd appreciate it if a mod could move it then.

Lauranae

nudel wrote: »

With Summerset, some important functions to update the item preview were purportedly privatized in the API. This is extremely unfortunate as there was a very nice addon that allowed for the saving of in-progress outfit designs from the preview menu.

Why is this such a problem? Well it actually allowed me to be anywhere and play around with the outfit preview which is built in the game, without having to note down every single change on a notepad for when i got to an outfit station later (I have since done this and it's exceptionally tedious). This freedom to play creatively before committing to the cost actually resulted in me spending MORE at the outfit station than I did before installing it or since its nullification.

It did not negate the gold cost as it still required gold to apply a saved outfit and actually be able to use it. Likewise, it didn't negate the desire for outfit slots as there was still a convenience factor of having multiple outfits to switch to as well as the gold savings of not overwriting another outfit with every switch.

Please reconsider and release this function again.

I must say that before summerset i was creating almost 2 outfits per days and with the addon, i was able to test a lot of them.

This addon was not acting as a replace of the build in game outfit system but more as a wonderful addition.

I was able to create, share with an alt the modele, and see the colors possibilities in regard of the mats i was using.

i was then buying a lot of outfit slot and was planning to buy more.

Since Summerset, i stopped everything. I have now one outfit common for all my characters (14) and i know that i will not spend crown on outfit slot anymore as the outfit system is now tedious, unpleasant and limited.

With your process i lost about 28 projects of outfit (as it was a stealth change i could not save them)

What was the goal of this privatization in the API ?

WhiteNoiseMaker

@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom

If the Devs could chime in here...

I too would like to state that this addon provided additional functionality that the default outfit system does not provide, yet should have. It in no way bypassed the outfit slot system, nor did it take away from the gold sink aspect. This was a good add-on that helped highlight the existing outfit system, making all the good aspects even better.

I'd like to ask ZOS why the api was privatized, why the decision to stymie the add-on was made, and if something can be done to help restore Votan's add-on to a working state?

AuldWolf

There are addons ZOS clearly doesn't like. Complaints like this aren't really going to change things. Other mods like Fish Fillet, Multi-Craft, and Lazy Writ Crafter are also disliked by ZOS. As soon as I found out, I stopped using any addons that automate things in that way. You can usually tell which addons ZOS doesn't like as they trip protected functions and throw lua errors. I haven't had a lua error or a game crash in quite some time, now. As I understand it, both of these are happening to some regularly and the reason why is bad addons.

ZOS is the gatekeeper, we can only use what they're generous enough to allow. I'm glad that there are certain mods they don't object to which just improve quality of life greatly, such as the addon which changes the alchemy UI for quality of life reasons, or letting us harvest books to read later (they even gave us book IDs).

Basically, I knew Votan's outfitting addon would upset them as soon as it was launched. I'd figured out what kinds of addons upset ZOS by that point. I was just wondering when they'd kill it.

Aliyavana

AuldWolf wrote: »

There are addons ZOS clearly doesn't like. Complaints like this aren't really going to change things. Other mods like Fish Fillet, Multi-Craft, and Lazy Writ Crafter are also disliked by ZOS. As soon as I found out, I stopped using any addons that automate things in that way. You can usually tell which addons ZOS doesn't like as they trip protected functions and throw lua errors. I haven't had a lua error or a game crash in quite some time, now. As I understand it, both of these are happening to some regularly and the reason why is bad addons.

ZOS is the gatekeeper, we can only use what they're generous enough to allow. I'm glad that there are certain mods they don't object to which just improve quality of life greatly, such as the addon which changes the alchemy UI for quality of life reasons, or letting us harvest books to read later (they even gave us book IDs).

Basically, I knew Votan's outfitting addon would upset them as soon as it was launched. I'd figured out what kinds of addons upset ZOS by that point. I was just wondering when they'd kill it.

if zos wants us to stop using multi craft or lazy writ crafter, a lot of people are gonna get banned

LumbermillOverlord

@AuldWolf
hmm no, multicraft and lazywrit crafter and other automatic addons not disliked by ZOS, because their functions still not private

nudel

AuldWolf wrote: »

There are addons ZOS clearly doesn't like. Complaints like this aren't really going to change things. Other mods like Fish Fillet, Multi-Craft, and Lazy Writ Crafter are also disliked by ZOS. As soon as I found out, I stopped using any addons that automate things in that way. You can usually tell which addons ZOS doesn't like as they trip protected functions and throw lua errors. I haven't had a lua error or a game crash in quite some time, now. As I understand it, both of these are happening to some regularly and the reason why is bad addons.

ZOS is the gatekeeper, we can only use what they're generous enough to allow. I'm glad that there are certain mods they don't object to which just improve quality of life greatly, such as the addon which changes the alchemy UI for quality of life reasons, or letting us harvest books to read later (they even gave us book IDs).

Basically, I knew Votan's outfitting addon would upset them as soon as it was launched. I'd figured out what kinds of addons upset ZOS by that point. I was just wondering when they'd kill it.

This is just completely incorrect. LUA errors aren't solely the result of triggering protected functions. If this were the case, then every single addon would have triggered protected functions when a new patch drops as I've gotten lua errors from every addon at some point in time. Even things that don't automate in any way, like Advanced Filters, have thrown lua errors.

iRouge

nudel wrote: »

With Summerset, some important functions to update the item preview were purportedly privatized in the API. This is extremely unfortunate as there was a very nice addon that allowed for the saving of in-progress outfit designs from the preview menu.

Why is this such a problem? Well it actually allowed me to be anywhere and play around with the outfit preview which is built in the game, without having to note down every single change on a notepad for when i got to an outfit station later (I have since done this and it's exceptionally tedious). This freedom to play creatively before committing to the cost actually resulted in me spending MORE at the outfit station than I did before installing it or since its nullification.

It did not negate the gold cost as it still required gold to apply a saved outfit and actually be able to use it. Likewise, it didn't negate the desire for outfit slots as there was still a convenience factor of having multiple outfits to switch to as well as the gold savings of not overwriting another outfit with every switch.

Please reconsider and release this function again.

I absolutely agree, this addon made me want to collect more motifs to make more outfits and I purchased more outfit slots because I liked the combinations I tried out using this Addon. Without it the current system is tedious, I want to try many outfits and save my combinations to apply to another outfit slot. Right now it's a guessing game and trial with lots of trial and error and I just want to apply my already existing combination directly to new slots, as it stands I don't really use the outfit system as much any more. ZOS please listen to the people and bring this back!

Crusism

This is tragic; I am very much dependent on this add-on to make my outfits all proper-like and experiment around. Now, I have to waste a s***-load of gold. Please consider this, ZOS.

jedtb16_ESO

isn't it up to the mod author to make it work?

G1Countdown

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

isn't it up to the mod author to make it work?

Yes indeed it is. My guess is ZOS had a logical reason for changing this.

ghastley

Sometimes the API changes are because ZOS are changing how things work on the other side of the fence. Let's hope that the withdrawn functionality is going to re-appear elsewhere. However the removal of the undo/redo looks more like marketing overriding technical.

Taleof2Cities

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

isn't it up to the mod author to make it work?

On ESOUI the add-on author appears resigned to not being able to return the add-on to its original state ... given the API changes.

Crusism wrote: »

This is tragic; I am very much dependent on this add-on to make my outfits all proper-like and experiment around. Now, I have to waste a s***-load of gold. Please consider this, ZOS.

Do you have a problem with previewing outfits at the outfit or dye station?

Because that is built into the base game.

Also have a problem with paying a s***-load of gold to change outfits?

That’s part of the base game too.

But, you can get around the gold cost by simply crafting your own gear in your style and dye of choice. That costs zero gold.

starkerealm

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

isn't it up to the mod author to make it work?

On ESOUI the add-on author appears resigned to not being able to return the add-on to its original state ... given the API changes.

Crusism wrote: »

This is tragic; I am very much dependent on this add-on to make my outfits all proper-like and experiment around. Now, I have to waste a s***-load of gold. Please consider this, ZOS.

Do you have a problem with previewing outfits at the outfit or dye station?

Because that is built into the base game.

Also have a problem with paying a s***-load of gold to change outfits?

That’s part of the base game too.

But, you can get around the gold cost by simply crafting your own gear in your style and dye of choice. That costs zero gold.

"ZONE: LF Master crafter who can make me a VO dagger and VO sword in Yokudan style!"



Though, to be fair, I'm not sure how this is something they couldn't already do at an outfit station. Maybe they might need to hit Belkarth or one of the other exterior stations, but that just leads to questions if they couldn't test it at the station, where were they doing this?

Linaleah

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

isn't it up to the mod author to make it work?

On ESOUI the add-on author appears resigned to not being able to return the add-on to its original state ... given the API changes.

Crusism wrote: »

This is tragic; I am very much dependent on this add-on to make my outfits all proper-like and experiment around. Now, I have to waste a s***-load of gold. Please consider this, ZOS.

Do you have a problem with previewing outfits at the outfit or dye station?

Because that is built into the base game.

Also have a problem with paying a s***-load of gold to change outfits?

That’s part of the base game too.

But, you can get around the gold cost by simply crafting your own gear in your style and dye of choice. That costs zero gold.

some of the functionality that addon had, that has been removed.

ability to undo a single color, rather then start from scratch.
save an outfit in progress.

I have no problem with using outfit station to mess around with ideas. I have one set up in my house with lighting and all.
I have a problem with UI functionality being abysmal. addon fixed some of the issues with functionality. and they deliberately broke it. why? why being able to undo a single change rather then scrap the whole progress is such a bad thing? why is saving outfits so that you can if you wanted to pay gold to switch between presets - such a bad thing? its NOT fun, its NOT somehow a good mechanic to hold on to.

AuldWolf

Good lord, the lack of reading comprehension in this thread is astounding.

nudel wrote: »

This is just completely incorrect. LUA errors aren't solely the result of triggering protected functions. If this were the case, then every single add-on would have triggered protected functions when a new patch drops as I've gotten lua errors from every add-on at some point in time. Even things that don't automate in any way, like Advanced Filters, have thrown lua errors.

This one, though, especially. Honestly?

I'm almost tempted to quote my original post as a response.

The second-hand embarrassment honestly just hurts me. It burns. It burns. Alright, alright, shrug it off! Allow me a deep sigh, here. Nudel, it might interest you to know that nowhere in my post did I say that lua errors are caused solely by protected functions being accidentally triggered. Do take a good, long, hard look, won't you? I'll wait.

What I did say, if you read it linearly as we in this reality do, is that accidentally triggering protected functions can pepper the unsuspecting player with lua errors. Not that all lua errors are caused by accidentally triggered functions. How can I explain this simply enough?

While all love boats are boats, not all boats are love boats. While protected functions can trigger lua errors, not all lua errors are caused by triggered protected functions.

Are we on the same page, now?

Lazy Writ Crafter (Creator, now?), Multi-Craft, and add-ons like them do often trip protected functions, mot notably UseItem from what I've seen in my experimentation. They do this due to unsafe calls, which badly made add-ons have in excess, unfortunately. This can result in not only errors but parts of the UI itself becoming tainted. This means that the player can no longer use those UI elements.

For example, an add-on that interacts with items might stop a player from being able to destroy items in their inventory, it might stop them from being able to open containers, et cetera. Lazy Writ Crafter/Creator and similar add-ons often cause both of these issues.

If an add-on is frequently causing protected functions to be tripped, thus resulting in errors and parts of the UI being locked out (tainting), this probably means that that add-on is doing something that ZOS didn't intend to allow and probably isn't all too happy with.

I imagine that there are debates going on at ZOS about whether Lazy Writ Crafter/Creator (and add-ons like it) should even be allowed due to how much of a loss of quality of life it means for console players by comparison.

And since I've cleaned those kinds of add-ons out of my selection, I haven't had a single protected function-related error. Not one! I haven't had any part of my UI lock me out. I haven't experienced a single taint. That's what I meant when I said that I've learned how to figure out which kinds of add-ons that ZOS doesn't like. I just avoid those. It's probably less of a headache for ZOS that way.

(Unified terminologies.)
 

Ohtimbar

Yeah it sucks that it's gone. As for LWC, it has always worked great for me and still does despite hyperbolic ranting.

LumbermillOverlord

@AuldWolf are you insane, bro, or what?

no, Multicraft and other automatic addons didn't trigger any UI disfunctions
you need to prove that first, if its work fine for all except you - problem on your side

and ZOS completely fine with those addons
stop posting this nonsence pls, you looks stupid

Dolgubon

AuldWolf wrote: »

Good lord, the lack of reading comprehension in this thread is astounding.

nudel wrote: »

This is just completely incorrect. LUA errors aren't solely the result of triggering protected functions. If this were the case, then every single add-on would have triggered protected functions when a new patch drops as I've gotten lua errors from every add-on at some point in time. Even things that don't automate in any way, like Advanced Filters, have thrown lua errors.

This one, though, especially. Honestly?

I'm almost tempted to quote my original post as a response.

The second-hand embarrassment honestly just hurts me. It burns. It burns. Alright, alright, shrug it off! Allow me a deep sigh, here. Nudel, it might interest you to know that nowhere in my post did I say that lua errors are caused solely by protected functions being accidentally triggered. Do take a good, long, hard look, won't you? I'll wait.

What I did say, if you read it linearly as we in this reality do, is that accidentally triggering protected functions can pepper the unsuspecting player with lua errors. Not that all lua errors are caused by accidentally triggered functions. How can I explain this simply enough?

While all love boats are boats, not all boats are love boats. While protected functions can trigger lua errors, not all lua errors are caused by triggered protected functions.

Are we on the same page, now?

Lazy Writ Crafter (Creator, now?), Multi-Craft, and add-ons like them do often trip protected functions, mot notably UseItem from what I've seen in my experimentation. They do this due to unsafe calls, which badly made add-ons have in excess, unfortunately. This can result in not only errors but parts of the UI itself becoming tainted. This means that the player can no longer use those UI elements.

For example, an add-on that interacts with items might stop a player from being able to destroy items in their inventory, it might stop them from being able to open containers, et cetera. Lazy Writ Crafter/Creator and similar add-ons often cause both of these issues.

If an add-on is frequently causing protected functions to be tripped, thus resulting in errors and parts of the UI being locked out (tainting), this probably means that that add-on is doing something that ZOS didn't intend to allow and probably isn't all too happy with.

I imagine that there are debates going on at ZOS about whether Lazy Writ Crafter/Creator (and add-ons like it) should even be allowed due to how much of a loss of quality of life it means for console players by comparison.

And since I've cleaned those kinds of add-ons out of my selection, I haven't had a single protected function-related error. Not one! I haven't had any part of my UI lock me out. I haven't experienced a single taint. That's what I meant when I said that I've learned how to figure out which kinds of add-ons that ZOS doesn't like. I just avoid those. It's probably less of a headache for ZOS that way.

(Unified terminologies.)
 

You have a lot of false information and incorrect assumptions in that post @AuldWolf .

To start off, a protected function is different from a private function. Protected functions are just stuff you can't use in combat. Many of the same restrictions on Protected functions apply to the base game UI, and not just addons. For example, you can't change gear or skills in combat, with or without addons, because the functions that do that are protected. It's simply a restriction on when and where you can use the function, not whether ZOS likes or doesn't like the function. UseItem is another example of a protected function. It's totally usable by addons, just only at certain times.

The other restriction on protected functions is that they need to be called in a certain way, if it is called by an addon. Which again doesn't mean it isn't allowed or is disliked by ZOS. Just that they set certain rules on how it can be used.

A private function is probably what you are thinking of. A private function is absolutely not available to addons. Private functions are things like 'Move Forward', 'Open a URL in a browser', 'Jump', 'Buy Crown Item', 'Get User email address', and 'Interact with NPC/loot container/fishing hole'. In short, largely hings which ZOS deems unsafe for addons. These are the functions ZOS hates. Not protected functions. As previously mentioned, UseItem is a protected function, not a private function. As such, the use of UseItem is perfectly fine to ZOS.

Functions that are protected and private change over time. 'Send mail with attached gold' is one example. It used to be usable by addons, but because it was abused by an addon author, it was made private. Previewing functions also changed from protected to private. UseItem, the function being discussed also seems to be another (according to old esoui forum posts). Previously, it was Private (over a year ago) but was made protected. As a result of these things changing, an addon which previously did not throw such an error could at some point in the future throw one. In some cases, the addon can be recoded to fix the errors. In other cases, it can't. Either way, it doesn't mean it was badly coded, just that the game changed.

Next, the 'attempt to access 'UseItem' from insecure code' error? It isn't caused by what you think it is. A lot of addons add some option to the context menu, i.e. the menu that comes up when you right click an item. This requires 'hooking' the function that makes the menu. Basically, you take x function that makes the menu, then take y function which is your own, and which calls x function at some point. Then, you tell the game that any time it calls x function it should call y function instead. This 'taints' the code, (So you're right on that point) because it's now been called by an addon. Which is normally fine, but sometimes the game tries to call code which should be secure, but isn't, and this causes the error you see.

But, there's a way of hooking functions which doesn't taint the code. This involves using ZO_PreHook, and it lets you hook a function without tainting that function. In the case of the context menu, there's a library which takes care of all that: LibCustomMenu. If an addon uses it, they won't get errors when a player uses a context menu... unless another addon doesn't use it. In that case, any addon could be 'listed' in the error, but it doesn't mean that addon caused the issue. It's also totally possible that after you uninstalled the Writ Crafter the actual culprit (Whether myself or someone else) fixed the bug.

To further complicate the situation, ZO_PreHook recently for a short period of time did taint the callstack (My fault admittedly, I reported an exploit using it) but they quickly changed it back to its normal behaviour.

So basically, if you see a 'Attempt to access insecure code' error, it's a very good chance that the error is not from an addon trying to access something it shouldn't, but because the addon tried to access something in the wrong way, and later down the line, the game (not the addon) called something.

Next, about the Lazy Writ Crafter. (It's Crafter btw. Just not quite unified in all places admittedly) It is perfectly fine to use. ZOS doesn't care if you use it or not. It does use LibCustomMenu. So it isn't the cause of your protected function issues, or at least it would only have been the cause over a year ago, for a very short period of time. There may very well have been debates on it, but they have certainly long been settled after existing for over two years.

Finally, as another note that insecure code errors aren't an indication that an addon is being frowned upon in any way by ZOS: Remember how I said that some functions change protected or private status over time? Well, that's one main way in which they can and do deal with stuff they don't like. The fact that CraftSmithingItem is still public means that they have no issues with how it's used. They can also modify how stuff works: For example in Cyrodil many functions were usable on other players, and that's changed over time. These are their ports of call in dealing with stuff they don't like. Not causing insecure code errors in addons. And, even if it was an indication that they didn't like something, it would be an indication they didn't like one specific thing not everything an addon does.

TL;DR: Protected and Private functions are two different things. Insecure code errors with Protected or Private functions are not an indicator that an addon is doing something ZOS doesn't want. Rather they can be caused by incorrect code, or a changing API. And finally, the Writ Crafter is completely fine to use and is not against the TOS. And please, report bugs to addon authors, don't assume it's because ZOS doesn't like it.

You're welcome to not use the Writ Crafter, but really, you're only hurting yourself: - and ZOS is probably laughing at you for not using it.

chris25602

reading the last few comments I feel that people just don't understand OOP code. so i thought of this
https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/122363/oop-private-method-parameters-coding-style
I am mostly a php dev and I rely heavily on abstract classes. whereAs interfaces I use only when i absolutely need them. some could disagree with my choices and I am sure they will...but really having to nit pick about private and public ppl need to be able to use google better imho.

also post_hook should be a real thing

Dolgubon

chris25602 wrote: »

reading the last few comments I feel that people just don't understand OOP code. so i thought of this
https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/122363/oop-private-method-parameters-coding-style
I am mostly a php dev and I rely heavily on abstract classes. whereAs interfaces I use only when i absolutely need them. some could disagree with my choices and I am sure they will...but really having to nit pick about private and public ppl need to be able to use google better imho.

also post_hook should be a real thing

First of all, Lua is not OOP. While you can mimic objects through some mildly complicated stuff, it's not really done very much in add-ons.

Second, Private in ESO Lua =/= private in OOP. In ESO, it's just a function that isn't available to add-ons, and it has nothing to do with classes. Which again, don't exist in Lua.

Post hook is a thing, it just isn't a thing you can do without tainting the callstack, and you need to do it 'manually' so to speak. But really, you probably don't need it for ESO Lua. If you feel you do, post on the esoui forums with your use case.

Slick_007

Dolgubon wrote: »

You're welcome to not use the Writ Crafter, but really, you're only hurting yourself: - and ZOS is probably laughing at you for not using it.

i imagine they are laughing at all the people who claim they cant play the game without it. not using it hardly makes life difficult.

DaveMoeDee

AuldWolf wrote: »

Good lord, the lack of reading comprehension in this thread is astounding.

nudel wrote: »

This is just completely incorrect. LUA errors aren't solely the result of triggering protected functions. If this were the case, then every single add-on would have triggered protected functions when a new patch drops as I've gotten lua errors from every add-on at some point in time. Even things that don't automate in any way, like Advanced Filters, have thrown lua errors.

This one, though, especially. Honestly?

I'm almost tempted to quote my original post as a response.

The second-hand embarrassment honestly just hurts me. It burns. It burns. Alright, alright, shrug it off! Allow me a deep sigh, here. Nudel, it might interest you to know that nowhere in my post did I say that lua errors are caused solely by protected functions being accidentally triggered. Do take a good, long, hard look, won't you? I'll wait.

What I did say, if you read it linearly as we in this reality do, is that accidentally triggering protected functions can pepper the unsuspecting player with lua errors. Not that all lua errors are caused by accidentally triggered functions. How can I explain this simply enough?

While all love boats are boats, not all boats are love boats. While protected functions can trigger lua errors, not all lua errors are caused by triggered protected functions.

Are we on the same page, now?

Lazy Writ Crafter (Creator, now?), Multi-Craft, and add-ons like them do often trip protected functions, mot notably UseItem from what I've seen in my experimentation. They do this due to unsafe calls, which badly made add-ons have in excess, unfortunately. This can result in not only errors but parts of the UI itself becoming tainted. This means that the player can no longer use those UI elements.

For example, an add-on that interacts with items might stop a player from being able to destroy items in their inventory, it might stop them from being able to open containers, et cetera. Lazy Writ Crafter/Creator and similar add-ons often cause both of these issues.

If an add-on is frequently causing protected functions to be tripped, thus resulting in errors and parts of the UI being locked out (tainting), this probably means that that add-on is doing something that ZOS didn't intend to allow and probably isn't all too happy with.

I imagine that there are debates going on at ZOS about whether Lazy Writ Crafter/Creator (and add-ons like it) should even be allowed due to how much of a loss of quality of life it means for console players by comparison.

And since I've cleaned those kinds of add-ons out of my selection, I haven't had a single protected function-related error. Not one! I haven't had any part of my UI lock me out. I haven't experienced a single taint. That's what I meant when I said that I've learned how to figure out which kinds of add-ons that ZOS doesn't like. I just avoid those. It's probably less of a headache for ZOS that way.

(Unified terminologies.)
 

I haven't had any LUA errors from those, but I have been locked out of base game functionality quite a few times. Interesting to know those might be the culprit.

Of course, reloadui is a lot easier an manually fulfilling writs.

Dolgubon

Slick_007 wrote: »

Dolgubon wrote: »

You're welcome to not use the Writ Crafter, but really, you're only hurting yourself: - and ZOS is probably laughing at you for not using it.

i imagine they are laughing at all the people who claim they cant play the game without it. not using it hardly makes life difficult.

If you only do writs on one or two toons, it certainly doesn't save much time for people who don't know much about crafting. But for those who know zilch about it, or people who do writs on 10-20 toons, it saves a ton of time