Lag Switches/Artificial latency

usmguy1234

So...I had a rant about an issue I've had for as very long time (even before the summerset debacle). I'd attack someone not even in a zerg and freeze up and usually crash. I always attributed this to bad internet. I've since moved and have very good internet but the same issues exist (even pre summerset) Anyways back to the rant...I had multiple people tell me oh you ran in to a lag switch user. I know the premise behind lag switches but figured doing something like that on console would be very difficult. So long story short a part of me wants to not believe such things exist and if they do are very limited... the other part of me..I guess my pride wants to wave the finger at the dirty cheater.

Just wondering if anyone on here has had similar experiences or heard similar stories so I can put this question to rest.

Edit: added artificial latency to the title. This explains the scenario better. Thanks @Thogard for pointing this out.

Belegnole

A lag switch can be used on any type of internet based gaming device. There are both mechanical and software versions.

usmguy1234

Belegnole wrote: »

A lag switch can be used on any type of internet based gaming device. There are both mechanical and software versions.

@Belegnole So any platform is susceptible basically.

Thogard

The times when you’re in combat are the times when the most data is being transferred and you have the highest incidence of packet loss.

Also Australians are a thing.

Nerf Australians?

Edit: but lag switches don’t work the way you think. They would only apply to your target (I.e. teleporting and rubberbanding). They wouldn’t make you lag.

the_broo11

The best thing you can do if you ever suspect cheating is to record a clip of the fight and watch it afterwards to verify what you think may have happened. Then if you run into the same individual multiple times in similar scenarios (or just once if it's that obvious), submit it to ZOS as proof.

While it may be possible on console, I've been playing since a few weeks after XB1 launch and have only witnessed a handful of scenarios that I'd potentially suspect as cheating (or exploiting extremely broken bugs to be more accurate).

usmguy1234

Thogard wrote: »

The times when you’re in combat are the times when the most data is being transferred and you have the highest incidence of packet loss.

Also Australians are a thing.

Nerf Australians?

Edit: but lag switches don’t work the way you think. They would only apply to your target (I.e. teleporting and rubberbanding). They wouldn’t make you lag.

@Thogard Yes it's more of a ddos than a lag switch

Rohamad_Ali

I have no idea what a lag switch is or how it functions . Can someone explain please ?

usmguy1234

the_broo11 wrote: »

The best thing you can do if you ever suspect cheating is to record a clip of the fight and watch it afterwards to verify what you think may have happened. Then if you run into the same individual multiple times in similar scenarios (or just once if it's that obvious), submit it to ZOS as proof.

While it may be possible on console, I've been playing since a few weeks after XB1 launch and have only witnessed a handful of scenarios that I'd potentially suspect as cheating (or exploiting extremely broken bugs to be more accurate).

@the_broo11 Right I'm usually not fast enough to catch them. One DC general is literally named the opposite of "clean speed" if you catch my drift. Just seems suspicious.

usmguy1234

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I have no idea what a lag switch is or how it functions . Can someone explain please ?

@Rohamad_Ali Connection disruption. Makes them rubber band around. What I meant to say was ddos. Spamming your opponent with packets to make them lag out.

Rohamad_Ali

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I have no idea what a lag switch is or how it functions . Can someone explain please ?

@Rohamad_Ali Connection disruption. Makes them rubber band around. What I meant to say was ddos. Spamming your opponent with packets to make them lag out.

How is that possible though ? I don't understand how they can shoot packets at players ingame at all .

idk

Thogard wrote: »

The times when you’re in combat are the times when the most data is being transferred and you have the highest incidence of packet loss.

Also Australians are a thing.

Nerf Australians?

Edit: but lag switches don’t work the way you think. They would only apply to your target (I.e. teleporting and rubberbanding). They wouldn’t make you lag.

This is it. The lag switch does not affect you but the person who is utilizing it.

To USM, have not heard of someone doing a attacking another players PC/router in such a manner in ESO.

usmguy1234

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I have no idea what a lag switch is or how it functions . Can someone explain please ?

@Rohamad_Ali Connection disruption. Makes them rubber band around. What I meant to say was ddos. Spamming your opponent with packets to make them lag out.

How is that possible though ? I don't understand how they can shoot packets at players ingame at all .

@Rohamad_Ali Don't know. The little I researched on Google hints that it can only be done on a modded console. My question is why bother with the trouble... but it is possible.

Rohamad_Ali

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I have no idea what a lag switch is or how it functions . Can someone explain please ?

@Rohamad_Ali Connection disruption. Makes them rubber band around. What I meant to say was ddos. Spamming your opponent with packets to make them lag out.

How is that possible though ? I don't understand how they can shoot packets at players ingame at all .

@Rohamad_Ali Don't know. The little I researched on Google hints that it can only be done on a modded console. My question is why bother with the trouble... but it is possible.

Thank you for explaining but I tend to disbelieve these sort of things unless someone can show or tell how it's possible . I've never seen it done ingame before or on YouTube . Seems like a urban legend to me .

usmguy1234

@idk thanks for the feedback.

Thogard

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I have no idea what a lag switch is or how it functions . Can someone explain please ?

Think “cable pulling” from 2001 MMOs lol.

And yes I’m aware that I just aged myself lol.

Thogard

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

The times when you’re in combat are the times when the most data is being transferred and you have the highest incidence of packet loss.

Also Australians are a thing.

Nerf Australians?

Edit: but lag switches don’t work the way you think. They would only apply to your target (I.e. teleporting and rubberbanding). They wouldn’t make you lag.

@Thogard Yes it's more of a ddos than a lag switch

Yeah I think we can pretty conclusively rule that out lol. You’ve entered tin foil hat territory. Also it’d be really really easy to spot.

Rohamad_Ali

Thogard wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I have no idea what a lag switch is or how it functions . Can someone explain please ?

Think “cable pulling” from 2001 MMOs lol.

And yes I’m aware that I just aged myself lol.

technohic

Even if it was possible to get a specific players IP to DDOS them, its then beyond far fetched to think they do it while engaging the other player.

usmguy1234

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I have no idea what a lag switch is or how it functions . Can someone explain please ?

@Rohamad_Ali Connection disruption. Makes them rubber band around. What I meant to say was ddos. Spamming your opponent with packets to make them lag out.

How is that possible though ? I don't understand how they can shoot packets at players ingame at all .

@Rohamad_Ali Don't know. The little I researched on Google hints that it can only be done on a modded console. My question is why bother with the trouble... but it is possible.

Thank you for explaining but I tend to disbelieve these sort of things unless someone can show or tell how it's possible . I've never seen it done ingame before or on YouTube . Seems like a urban legend to me .

@Rohamad_Ali I agree. I try to look for the good in people most of the time.

Rohamad_Ali

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I have no idea what a lag switch is or how it functions . Can someone explain please ?

@Rohamad_Ali Connection disruption. Makes them rubber band around. What I meant to say was ddos. Spamming your opponent with packets to make them lag out.

How is that possible though ? I don't understand how they can shoot packets at players ingame at all .

@Rohamad_Ali Don't know. The little I researched on Google hints that it can only be done on a modded console. My question is why bother with the trouble... but it is possible.

Thank you for explaining but I tend to disbelieve these sort of things unless someone can show or tell how it's possible . I've never seen it done ingame before or on YouTube . Seems like a urban legend to me .

@Rohamad_Ali I agree. I try to look for the good in people most of the time.

As do I but I know shady stuff exists just the process of this one eludes my brain so I'm being safely skeptical . Plus , ZoS servers are very messy lately . Most of lag issues I point towards them and some coding since patch that's not playing nice with many players .

usmguy1234

Thogard wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

The times when you’re in combat are the times when the most data is being transferred and you have the highest incidence of packet loss.

Also Australians are a thing.

Nerf Australians?

Edit: but lag switches don’t work the way you think. They would only apply to your target (I.e. teleporting and rubberbanding). They wouldn’t make you lag.

@Thogard Yes it's more of a ddos than a lag switch

Yeah I think we can pretty conclusively rule that out lol. You’ve entered tin foil hat territory. Also it’d be really really easy to spot.

@Thogard I'm just asking if anyone has ran in to anything like that or has heard rumors. I'm just saying it's suspicious when you're about to kill someone and your game crashes completely when you are in a fairly remote area... even with the issues in cyrodiil.

usmguy1234

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I have no idea what a lag switch is or how it functions . Can someone explain please ?

@Rohamad_Ali Connection disruption. Makes them rubber band around. What I meant to say was ddos. Spamming your opponent with packets to make them lag out.

How is that possible though ? I don't understand how they can shoot packets at players ingame at all .

@Rohamad_Ali Don't know. The little I researched on Google hints that it can only be done on a modded console. My question is why bother with the trouble... but it is possible.

Thank you for explaining but I tend to disbelieve these sort of things unless someone can show or tell how it's possible . I've never seen it done ingame before or on YouTube . Seems like a urban legend to me .

@Rohamad_Ali I agree. I try to look for the good in people most of the time.

As do I but I know shady stuff exists just the process of this one eludes my brain so I'm being safely skeptical . Plus , ZoS servers are very messy lately . Most of lag issues I point towards them and some coding since patch that's not playing nice with many players .

@Rohamad_Ali agreed. I was hoping to find a few similar stories on here but no luck so far.

RinaldoGandolphi

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I have no idea what a lag switch is or how it functions . Can someone explain please ?

@Rohamad_Ali Connection disruption. Makes them rubber band around. What I meant to say was ddos. Spamming your opponent with packets to make them lag out.

How is that possible though ? I don't understand how they can shoot packets at players ingame at all .

In lamens terms, A lag switch is a piece of hardware that can be used to cause momentary interruptions in your network connection. Depending on the game this can allow many different things to happen, from people teleporting around, to even queing up multiple attacks and making all of them hit you at the same time(with the same exact time stamp in your combat log)...people attribute this to lag all the time and think its because of ZOS, but not all of it is...people most certainly use lag switches in ESO on both console and PC. Lag switches have been around since online gaming became a thing, and sadly they are something that in terms of PC gaming will probably not be solved anytime soon.

If you understand how TCP works, games have to have some sort of error correction, and some sort of time out to account for dropped packets. People using lag switches game the error correct and lost packet algorithms that are inherent to TCP or any network protocol really.

Depending on how the error correction or lost packet algorithm is handled in conjunction with client side prediction, say 2 players, one using a lag switch and one isn't, player 2 is using a lag switch and thinks he may lose, so he begins lagging by using his lag switch...since the Server thinks their are periods where player 2 has temp lost connection, successful hits registered by player one are discarded as the server thinks player two was lost on packets at that time. this allows the player using the lag switch to not only not take damage, but to literally unload on you and string together successive attacks that all hit at the same time.

Its a myth that dedicated servers fix the Lag Switch issue, gaming companies simply used that as marketing to sell games. Lag Switch is more effective against P2P systems(peer-to-peer) but it most certainly still works on dedicated server systems. Ever had a 112 ping and be hit by 3 Lethal Arrows at the same time with the same exact timestamp in your combat log? Welcome to a lag switch....unless their is some sort of exploit with the ability itself, its most likely a lag switch. Also, their are two kinds of lag switches, the hardware type and the software type.the software type simulates a hardware lag switch by flodding your network connections with packets at certain intevals to simulate an actual lag switch.

in 1.5 it was possible to lag switch ESO by spamming the Print Screen button which allowed you to do impossible combos, and even bolt escape mid air across walls and keeps.

See a lag switch in action in ESO (Before they fixed the print screen bug, but network lag switches work in the same manner and allow similar things)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNudjF2NewA

On Xbox Live I know Xbox/Microsoft actually monitors the voltage level of your Network Interface as constant or repeated fluctuation in voltage(due to connecting and re-connecting multiple times in short periods) alerts them to the use of a lag switch and will get your console banned by Xbox Live.

I am not sure if Sony does such monitoring, but I know Microsoft does for a fact that the Xbox One does look for such flunctions, and as far as i know its not possible to run a software lag switch on either of the consoles without modding them in some manner which will get you banned to.

On PC, ZOS would have get WHQL signed Drivers to be able to monitor voltage levels on your network interface, and even if they issued this as an update, even if the driver is signed by Microsoft WHQL, it still prompts on installation asking you if you want to install the said driver, and it would show up under device manager under hidden drivers if that was the case.

Lag Switches are not always useful in every situation, they are not the end all be all of online game cheating, but in some cases they are very much advantageous.

Lag Switches will work in every online game, especially ones that use TCP until the TCP Protocol itself is pretty old being it was started in the 1970's and finalized in the early 80's. It has been build upon and expanded upon over the years since then, and new features added to it, and protcols built on top of it, but much of it under the hood remains the same. I know the IETF is looking at re-writing some of the core implementations of TCP/IP suite updating those core protocols to go along with IPv^, but those things have not been finalized yet and will take quite a bit of time since so much of the internet infrastructre has been built up the current TCP/IP protocol suite and numerous protocols and applications built on top of it.

right now it is what is is. I wouldn't assume everyone who plays ESO cheats or uses lag switches, but discounting saying no one uses them is equally foolish as long as online games exists, so will lag switches until the IETF finalizes some of the core changes that are being proposed for TCP/IP which will probably be another 10 years or so.

Thogard

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

The times when you’re in combat are the times when the most data is being transferred and you have the highest incidence of packet loss.

Also Australians are a thing.

Nerf Australians?

Edit: but lag switches don’t work the way you think. They would only apply to your target (I.e. teleporting and rubberbanding). They wouldn’t make you lag.

@Thogard Yes it's more of a ddos than a lag switch

Yeah I think we can pretty conclusively rule that out lol. You’ve entered tin foil hat territory. Also it’d be really really easy to spot.

@Thogard I'm just asking if anyone has ran in to anything like that or has heard rumors. I'm just saying it's suspicious when you're about to kill someone and your game crashes completely when you are in a fairly remote area... even with the issues in cyrodiil.

Lag switches maybe... but what you’re describing? Definitely not.

Sounds like you’re experiencing the usual cyrodil.

Rohamad_Ali

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I have no idea what a lag switch is or how it functions . Can someone explain please ?

@Rohamad_Ali Connection disruption. Makes them rubber band around. What I meant to say was ddos. Spamming your opponent with packets to make them lag out.

How is that possible though ? I don't understand how they can shoot packets at players ingame at all .

In lamens terms, A lag switch is a piece of hardware that can be used to cause momentary interruptions in your network connection. Depending on the game this can allow many different things to happen, from people teleporting around, to even queing up multiple attacks and making all of them hit you at the same time(with the same exact time stamp in your combat log)...people attribute this to lag all the time and think its because of ZOS, but not all of it is...people most certainly use lag switches in ESO on both console and PC. Lag switches have been around since online gaming became a thing, and sadly they are something that in terms of PC gaming will probably not be solved anytime soon.

If you understand how TCP works, games have to have some sort of error correction, and some sort of time out to account for dropped packets. People using lag switches game the error correct and lost packet algorithms that are inherent to TCP or any network protocol really.

Depending on how the error correction or lost packet algorithm is handled in conjunction with client side prediction, say 2 players, one using a lag switch and one isn't, player 2 is using a lag switch and thinks he may lose, so he begins lagging by using his lag switch...since the Server thinks their are periods where player 2 has temp lost connection, successful hits registered by player one are discarded as the server thinks player two was lost on packets at that time. this allows the player using the lag switch to not only not take damage, but to literally unload on you and string together successive attacks that all hit at the same time.

Its a myth that dedicated servers fix the Lag Switch issue, gaming companies simply used that as marketing to sell games. Lag Switch is more effective against P2P systems(peer-to-peer) but it most certainly still works on dedicated server systems. Ever had a 112 ping and be hit by 3 Lethal Arrows at the same time with the same exact timestamp in your combat log? Welcome to a lag switch....unless their is some sort of exploit with the ability itself, its most likely a lag switch. Also, their are two kinds of lag switches, the hardware type and the software type.the software type simulates a hardware lag switch by flodding your network connections with packets at certain intevals to simulate an actual lag switch.

in 1.5 it was possible to lag switch ESO by spamming the Print Screen button which allowed you to do impossible combos, and even bolt escape mid air across walls and keeps.

See a lag switch in action in ESO (Before they fixed the print screen bug, but network lag switches work in the same manner and allow similar things)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNudjF2NewA

On Xbox Live I know Xbox/Microsoft actually monitors the voltage level of your Network Interface as constant or repeated fluctuation in voltage(due to connecting and re-connecting multiple times in short periods) alerts them to the use of a lag switch and will get your console banned by Xbox Live.

I am not sure if Sony does such monitoring, but I know Microsoft does for a fact that the Xbox One does look for such flunctions, and as far as i know its not possible to run a software lag switch on either of the consoles without modding them in some manner which will get you banned to.

On PC, ZOS would have get WHQL signed Drivers to be able to monitor voltage levels on your network interface, and even if they issued this as an update, even if the driver is signed by Microsoft WHQL, it still prompts on installation asking you if you want to install the said driver, and it would show up under device manager under hidden drivers if that was the case.

Lag Switches are not always useful in every situation, they are not the end all be all of online game cheating, but in some cases they are very much advantageous.

Lag Switches will work in every online game, especially ones that use TCP until the TCP Protocol itself is pretty old being it was started in the 1970's and finalized in the early 80's. It has been build upon and expanded upon over the years since then, and new features added to it, and protcols built on top of it, but much of it under the hood remains the same. I know the IETF is looking at re-writing some of the core implementations of TCP/IP suite updating those core protocols to go along with IPv^, but those things have not been finalized yet and will take quite a bit of time since so much of the internet infrastructre has been built up the current TCP/IP protocol suite and numerous protocols and applications built on top of it.

right now it is what is is. I wouldn't assume everyone who plays ESO cheats or uses lag switches, but discounting saying no one uses them is equally foolish as long as online games exists, so will lag switches until the IETF finalizes some of the core changes that are being proposed for TCP/IP which will probably be another 10 years or so.

Thank you @RinaldoGandolphi that was very informative . I must admit even after researching myself I have a hard time understanding how interrupting ones own network effects another player but there is tutorials out there and some weird videos that are hard to confirm if it's working or not . You would have to take the video makers word for it .

https://www.lifewire.com/what-is-a-lag-switch-817481

Livewire explains the concept but it still remains confusing to me .

usmguy1234

technohic wrote: »

Even if it was possible to get a specific players IP to DDOS them, its then beyond far fetched to think they do it while engaging the other player.

You are correct that it would be difficult to get that information on the fly but I also think you are thinking too complicated. Think about macroslice.

usmguy1234

@RinaldoGandolphi Thank you so much for the awesome explanation!

technohic

So you think people are DBOSing the server and causing the server to then send out a DDOS of sorts to its client when its trying to catch up?

usmguy1234

@technohic Not sure. I'd think it'd be more efficient client to client and bypass the server but I'm not sure what if any interactions of two ppl fighting are only client based. I would say none because that's a potential for issues obviously but yet again I don't know.

the_broo11

usmguy1234 wrote: »

the_broo11 wrote: »

The best thing you can do if you ever suspect cheating is to record a clip of the fight and watch it afterwards to verify what you think may have happened. Then if you run into the same individual multiple times in similar scenarios (or just once if it's that obvious), submit it to ZOS as proof.

While it may be possible on console, I've been playing since a few weeks after XB1 launch and have only witnessed a handful of scenarios that I'd potentially suspect as cheating (or exploiting extremely broken bugs to be more accurate).

@the_broo11 Right I'm usually not fast enough to catch them. One DC general is literally named the opposite of "clean speed" if you catch my drift. Just seems suspicious.

Not sure how much you've used the xbox DVR, but you can record up to 5 min of past gameplay at any point (i.e. you can record after the fight). You can also change the default option for "Record that" (accessed by xbox button --> X) from anywhere between 15s to 5min. Its found under settings --> preferences --> broadcast & capture --> "record that" duration. For what worth, I've found that using the 3min option seems to work best.

usmguy1234

the_broo11 wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

the_broo11 wrote: »

The best thing you can do if you ever suspect cheating is to record a clip of the fight and watch it afterwards to verify what you think may have happened. Then if you run into the same individual multiple times in similar scenarios (or just once if it's that obvious), submit it to ZOS as proof.

While it may be possible on console, I've been playing since a few weeks after XB1 launch and have only witnessed a handful of scenarios that I'd potentially suspect as cheating (or exploiting extremely broken bugs to be more accurate).

@the_broo11 Right I'm usually not fast enough to catch them. One DC general is literally named the opposite of "clean speed" if you catch my drift. Just seems suspicious.

Not sure how much you've used the xbox DVR, but you can record up to 5 min of past gameplay at any point (i.e. you can record after the fight). You can also change the default option for "Record that" (accessed by xbox button --> X) from anywhere between 15s to 5min. Its found under settings --> preferences --> broadcast & capture --> "record that" duration. For what worth, I've found that using the 3min option seems to work best.

@the_broo11 Thank you. I'll start doing that.